Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

AndrewJRenko · 17-01-2021 7:19pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Coincidentally I'm just after seeing this tweet...

https://twitter.com/glutenfreeMark/status/1350465343471419397?s=19

But, but, no-one will cycle in winter, are you mad?

https://twitter.com/robertburns73/status/1350847873685065730

Thelonious Monk · 17-01-2021 7:44pm

I was at the seafront in Raheny today at around 9am and the cycleway had loads of cyclists on it. People use them if they're built.

Seth Brundle · 17-01-2021 8:12pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I was at the seafront in Raheny today at around 9am and the cycleway had loads of cyclists on it. People use them if they're built.

That cycleway is busy every day. It is used a lot by commuters and leisure cyclists alike.

strandroad · 17-01-2021 8:13pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

But, but, no-one will cycle in winter, are you mad?

Some of my local parks have had paths widened by the programme. They weren't exactly cycling hotspots before but there is a lot of activity now, especially the wee ones taught by parents. In January! Scooting too. Entire families out. It actually impacts me if I'm there as a pedestrian who now needs to share but I'll gladly take it, it's great to see.

Thelonious Monk · 17-01-2021 8:26pm

And just because a cycle lane is busy does that mean instead it should have cars driving on that piece of land constantly or what?

Weepsie · 17-01-2021 8:53pm

The park wsa also heaving with cyclists today, and it was cyclists of all shapes and sizes. IT was an absolute pleasure.

Loads and loads of families out cycling. A dad with his very young son on hybrids, a cyclist with disability but with a nifty looking adapted bike, a few families with trailers and those ridealong things, and babyseats, older couples, a young family doing some trail riding, some utility cycling, a handful of what you'd call racing cyclists for want of a better word. There were also loads of women too of every age, and not once did they dismount at a roundabout!

the only problem in the park was people driving really slowy looking for parking on the verges and even then, it wasn't as bad as it has been

markpb · 17-01-2021 9:37pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The numbers evident on the Seapoint-Dun Laoghaire cyclelane that I see at different times every single day, make me think thats exactly what it is going to be.

A lot of the people travelling to work at the minute (hospital staff, shop staff, manufacturing, warehousing, call centre, etc) will be on shift patterns so I’m not sure how you can tell what it’s being used for.

Anyway, if you’re not happy with the numbers commuting, perhaps that’s because there are very few really good cycle lanes in Dublin. The CMR is brilliant but it’s only a start.

Larbre34 · 18-01-2021 9:01pm

The Sandymount Cycle for All group have, to date, gathered 850 signatures for their petition to insist on off-road cycle facilities on Strand Road / Beach Road.

Seth Brundle · 18-01-2021 9:14pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The Sandymount Cycle for All group have, to date, gathered 850 signatures for their petition to insist on off-road cycle facilities on Strand Road / Beach Road.

Where is the petition?

AndrewJRenko · 18-01-2021 10:04pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I have no connection with STC and I don't live in the area. My own concern, as a business owner in and a citizen of this City is the segregation, isolation and creeping exclusivisation of parts of it, down to an over zealous bureaucracy and special interest lobbies, using the excuse of a temporary crisis situation to bring about big changes in an unchecked and improper manner.

It's always funny when people talk about cycling as 'exclusive' or 'elite'. It's almost as if some people have forgotten about the order of magnitude of difference in the purchase and running costs of bikes vs cars.

Cars are exclusive and elitist. Bikes are not exclusive or elitist.

Not everyone can drive, whether because they're too young or too old or too poor or too disabled.

Weepsie · 18-01-2021 10:47pm

On reasons for signing.

Lack of consultation apparent. Jesus f*ckin wept. Consultation was open with over half the people in support of it and only a quarter objecting to it. More have singed the petition than outright objected in the consultation, so I'd wager a fair few just didn't bother and are throwing a hissy

It's a trial too.

markpb · 18-01-2021 11:24pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

Where is the petition?

I’m willing to bet it’s a secret petition. They don’t want to be infiltrated by Big Cycling.

Seaswimmer · 18-01-2021 11:41pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

The other roads in the City that exclude vehicular traffic are, by their nature, City Centre streets that are ideal for pedestrianisation and creating ambient social and commercial spaces in the open air.

The fact that Strand Road bears no resemblance to those streets, in profile or in purpose, only supports my argument further.

I was trawling the Dun Laoghaire forum to find something and came across your post from 2013 (sad I know). I have bolded the bit I like.. Once upon a time you were actually ahead of the rest of us in your thinking:)

"By the way i understand the crossing point outside the DART station, the amount of jay walking and walking out behind buses that goes on there is madness. Also car drivers behave appallingly at the main crossroads, more lights broken than an old christmas tree. Ive no problem with private drivers being pushed down the pecking order on road priority, and as ive said before on these threads, that is the adopted national policy"

magicbastarder · 19-01-2021 8:38am

Strand Road cycleway

Sir, – As an outside observer of the ongoing Strand Road cycle track trial saga, it has been amusing to note the logical contortions and contradictions objectors have notched up.
...
My favourite was the claim in the same article that there are very few cyclists at present, therefore a cycle track is not warranted. I’m looking forward to the next proposal of a bridge over the Liffey. I can point out that very few people are swimming across the river, so why do we need a bridge?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/strand-road-cycleway-1.4461475

what_traffic · 19-01-2021 9:41am

magicbastarder wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/strand-road-cycleway-1.4461475?mode=amp

Is there a hat tip icon! "As an outside observer..." great opening line.
Amazing how much coverage Strand Road cycleway has been given.
The IT can often feel like a local South Dublin newsletter.

Larbre34 · 19-01-2021 1:02pm

Seaswimmer wrote: »

I was trawling the Dun Laoghaire forum to find something and came across your post from 2013 (sad I know). I have bolded the bit I like.. Once upon a time you were actually ahead of the rest of us in your thinking:)

"By the way i understand the crossing point outside the DART station, the amount of jay walking and walking out behind buses that goes on there is madness. Also car drivers behave appallingly at the main crossroads, more lights broken than an old christmas tree. Ive no problem with private drivers being pushed down the pecking order on road priority, and as ive said before on these threads, that is the adopted national policy"

Yeah it is pretty sad, but whatever gets you off.

I'm not on here decrying cyclists or cycling. I never have been. I am one. I'm on here decrying bad decision making, piss poor bureaucracy, total lack of strategic and joined up thinking, the binning of the rules under the guise of the pandemic as if things are never supposed to re-balance in the end, the multitude of agencies and ministers involved in transport policy, yet none of them will take ultimate responsibility and grasp the nettles that need grasping and properly fund alternative systems.

I spend every second that I'm driving giving cyclists and other vulnerable road users the widest berth I can. I roll my eyes at every red light I see broken by a cyclist, as its just more ammunition against them.

But none of that is relevant to Captain Ahab Keegan and his stupid bloody plan to block off a regional road and key economic route against planning procedures, against proper design standards and while there are alternatives available. The City Council executive have genuinely not thought through the knock on effect of doing this and I do not trust them one bit to remove this "trial" down the line.

buffalo · 19-01-2021 1:19pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'm on here decrying bad decision making, piss poor bureaucracy, total lack of strategic and joined up thinking, the binning of the rules under the guise of the pandemic as if things are never supposed to re-balance in the end, the multitude of agencies and ministers involved in transport policy, yet none of them will take ultimate responsibility and grasp the nettles that need grasping and properly fund alternative systems.

You say the above, yet when DCC grasp the nettle, cut through the bureaucracy and make a decision to create an alternative (moving to join up the city centre with the CMR in a strategy of fighting climate change and creating space for non-motorists), you say the below.

Larbre34 wrote: »

But none of that is relevant to Captain Ahab Keegan and his stupid bloody plan to block off a regional road and key economic route against planning procedures, against proper design standards and while there are alternatives available.

I guess there's no winning.

Larbre34 · 19-01-2021 5:29pm

No one gave Keegan carte blanche to do an end-run around planning rules. If that is let pass, after the poor history of it in this City, don't come crying to me when he does something that you do object to, while also skipping due process.

We're talking about the same Executive that is talking again in recent days about a feckin white water rafting complex in George's Dock, against the will of the elected Councillors and even though projected costs have risen from 12 to 25 million euro.

I make no apology for not trusting him or his senior staff one inch.

Seth Brundle · 19-01-2021 5:36pm

^^^
That's just paranoid nonsense.

Larbre34 · 19-01-2021 6:05pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

^^^
That's just paranoid nonsense.

Is it?

The City Council's Law Agent last week stated the Council's intention to press ahead with Strand Road plan, in spite of residents seeking a Section 5 determination from An Bord Pleanála, saying the Council has no obligation to halt work that it contends is under S.38 and accusing residents of seeking to frustrate the plan.

That legal officer knows as well as you or I that it is perfectly valid to ask for an S5 determination for work of this scale. The City Council knows better than anyone what importance Part 8 has in underwriting the validity and due process of local authority works. In other words, he knows there is an argument to be made here and the determination is uncertain.

If the City executive know this and choose the steamroller anyway, my concern about it isn't paranoia. Your concern should be what they choose to do next with these poor practices.

Seaswimmer · 19-01-2021 6:27pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

No one gave Keegan carte blanche to do an end-run around planning rules. If that is let pass, after the poor history of it in this City, don't come crying to me when he does something that you do object to, while also skipping due process.

We're talking about the same Executive that is talking again in recent days about a feckin white water rafting complex in George's Dock, against the will of the elected Councillors and even though projected costs have risen from 12 to 25 million euro.

I make no apology for not trusting him or his senior staff one inch.

It is only a trial. Why not give it a go. If it ends up in chaos then revert back.
We can only guess at the moment how it will work out and whether it will be permanent or not.
But without giving it a go then we miss an opportunity to see if it may be successful. It is a perfect time to try it out as traffic volumes are low so impact should be minimal.
The coastal route from Blackrock to Sandycove is still in its trial phase and appears successful despite everybodys fears.

magicbastarder · 19-01-2021 6:49pm

can someone name one implementation of a cycle lane which so far has resulted in the sort of apocalypse we keep being warned of?

ted1 · 19-01-2021 6:49pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

No one gave Keegan carte blanche to do an end-run around planning rules. If that is let pass, after the poor history of it in this City, don't come crying to me when he does something that you do object to, while also skipping due process.

We're talking about the same Executive that is talking again in recent days about a feckin white water rafting complex in George's Dock, against the will of the elected Councillors and even though projected costs have risen from 12 to 25 million euro.

I make no apology for not trusting him or his senior staff one inch.

What’s your issue with the white water rafting plan. I think it’s great. And will be well used. As a nation we have kids poor facilities if you want to do a sport outside of the GAA, FAI or IRFU. It’ll be money well spent.

Plenty of cllrs support it.

AndrewJRenko · 19-01-2021 6:50pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

No one gave Keegan carte blanche to do an end-run around planning rules. If that is let pass, after the poor history of it in this City, don't come crying to me when he does something that you do object to, while also skipping due process.

We're talking about the same Executive that is talking again in recent days about a feckin white water rafting complex in George's Dock, against the will of the elected Councillors and even though projected costs have risen from 12 to 25 million euro.

I make no apology for not trusting him or his senior staff one inch.

So are you saying that the 37 Councillors reported as voting in favour of the White Water Rafting here didn't actually vote for it?
https://twitter.com/DarraghCulhane/status/1202255030260248582?s=19

And wasn't the budget €22m at that stage?

silverharp · 19-01-2021 7:00pm

its like the civil war innit, the Free State is an impediment to achieving the Republic. Realistically there wont be a top class cycle route for the Strand Road for 10 years if ever, its worth giving this trial a shot and if it doesnt work now it never will when traffic goes back to normal over time

Larbre34 · 19-01-2021 7:23pm

DCC figures out this evening.

Vehicular traffic between the canals now at 58% of pre-Covid levels, as opposed to 30% in March / April last.

The Council determines that those who would have taken public transport and still require to attend work are now most likely to be driving or be a passenger in a private vehicle.

Thelonious Monk · 19-01-2021 7:50pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

can someone name one implementation of a cycle lane which so far has resulted in the sort of apocalypse we keep being warned of?

Kensington High Street. It was allegedly causing so much hassle lately for motorists they got rid of it and then cameras showed that vans etc were parked there for days, blocking the lane anyway. But that didn't seem to bother anyone.

AndrewJRenko · 19-01-2021 8:08pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I spend every second that I'm driving giving cyclists and other vulnerable road users the widest berth I can. I roll my eyes at every red light I see broken by a cyclist, as its just more ammunition against them.

I suppose if you rolled your eyes at each of the 98% of motorists that break a speed limit, and each of the majority of motorists that use their phones while driving, you wouldn't actually be able to drive as you'd never get your eyes down from the roof.

eeeee · 19-01-2021 9:14pm

Mod note: enough of the cars v cyclists, red light breaking speeding bickering. Off topic for this thread. Further posts on that subject will be deleted.

Seaswimmer · 19-01-2021 10:28pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

DCC figures out this evening.

Vehicular traffic between the canals now at 58% of pre-Covid levels, as opposed to 30% in March / April last.

The Council determines that those who would have taken public transport and still require to attend work are now most likely to be driving or be a passenger in a private vehicle.

Still a long way short of pre covid traffic levels though and we may never get back to those days with home working.. Lots of reasons given for the increase anyway.

First lockdown was 2k limit, over 70s advised to cocoon and more retail was shut back then. Also we probably were a bit more diligent and weren't so weary of lockdowns..

eeeee · 20-01-2021 12:45pm

The pre and post cycle lane comparison is pretty stark here:

It's also really apparent in the Blackrock Sandycove cycle lane. If you build it they will come, and they have, resulting in quieter, safer street, less pollution, cleaner air etc. The amount of cyclists on it now in comparison to before is unbelievable, kids, women, young and old, families etc.

The expected blocking of the Rock road didn't happen, I cycle both frequently before and after the lane went in.

It's hard to argue with.

MojoMaker · 20-01-2021 1:31pm

That's in a while now and a wonderful resource it is.

Anybody seen any data around how much traffic dropped off on that route, and - even better - any figures on conversions from motorised commuting to pedalling? Did the traffic simply divert? Was there hullabaloo from residents of Monkstown village etc?

Must be hard to capture but would be interesting.

Cheeky scooter from 3:20 in the clip above

Thelonious Monk · 20-01-2021 4:14pm

That Utrecht video is like a different planet. You notice in Holland that everyone is tall, no one is fat, and there's no helmets or high vis.

cletus · 20-01-2021 4:42pm

I'm all for cycling and cycling infrastructure, but it doesn't make you any taller, and there's plenty of fat people on Holland

20-01-2021 4:47pm

MojoMaker wrote: »

That's in a while now and a wonderful resource it is.

Anybody seen any data around how much traffic dropped off on that route, and - even better - any figures on conversions from motorised commuting to pedalling? Did the traffic simply divert? Was there hullabaloo from residents of Monkstown village etc?

Must be hard to capture but would be interesting.

Cheeky scooter from 3:20 in the clip above

it is impossible to say until people are back working in offices.

I live near the southern end of that stretch and as a driver it is a pain in the arse to be honest.

From a cycling perspective, it is nowehere near as busy as it was when it was built, but Sandycove is obviously less busy in the winter except for a few die hards and they have always walked there, or in the case of the new generation of winter swimmers, dry robes on a bike don't work, so they have stuck to their 4x4s.

AndrewJRenko · 20-01-2021 5:03pm

Aegir wrote: »

it is impossible to say until people are back working in offices.

I live near the southern end of that stretch and as a driver it is a pain in the arse to be honest.

From a cycling perspective, it is nowehere near as busy as it was when it was built, but Sandycove is obviously less busy in the winter except for a few die hards and they have always walked there, or in the case of the new generation of winter swimmers, dry robes on a bike don't work, so they have stuck to their 4x4s.

I've seen a few people in Dryrobes on bikes. Last weekend one lady had some belt or strap around it.

eeeee · 20-01-2021 5:06pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've seen a few people in Dryrobes on bikes. Last weekend one lady had some belt or strap around it.

What an excellent idea. Perfect post swim pedal home wear!

loyatemu · 20-01-2021 5:30pm

cletus wrote: »

I'm all for cycling and cycling infrastructure, but it doesn't make you any taller, and there's plenty of fat people on Holland

the Dutch are among the tallest people on earth - coincidence?

(probably, yes).

Thelonious Monk · 20-01-2021 5:31pm

cletus wrote: »

I'm all for cycling and cycling infrastructure, but it doesn't make you any taller, and there's plenty of fat people on Holland

The Dutch are the tallest in the world I think. And they're way down the EU overweight lists, you really notice it.

ted1 · 20-01-2021 5:47pm

Good news (except for Labre and his car)

https://mobile.twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1351911395420491776

cletus · 20-01-2021 6:26pm

I'm not challenging the height of the Dutch nation, it was more the suggested correlation between that and cycling. The post was mostly tongue in cheek

20-01-2021 7:44pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

The Dutch are the tallest in the world I think. And they're way down the EU overweight lists, you really notice it.

When you live in a low flat country that could have a catastrophic flood, I guess being tall is part of natural selection.

Larbre34 · 21-01-2021 3:04pm

ted1 wrote: »

Good news (except for Labre and his car)

https://mobile.twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1351911395420491776

I'm absolutely in favour of this, its appropriate and will be brilliant for the City. I do think the local businesses will secure 24hr access for commercial deliveries ultimately. Also theres no comparison to be made between this and Strand Road.

I see the BBC are reporting that the High Court in London has quashed the pandemic 'Streetspace' scheme implemented by the Mayor of London and TfL, as unlawful and against good planning. Certainly something that DCC should take note of.

And less of the personal digs too please Ted, I can play that game if you'd like, but playing the man when you can't get near a ball only reflects badly on you.

BabysCoffee · 21-01-2021 3:20pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

I'm absolutely in favour of this, its appropriate and will be brilliant for the City. I do think the local businesses will secure 24hr access for commercial deliveries ultimately. Also theres no comparison to be made between this and Strand Road.

I see the BBC are reporting that the High Court in London has quashed the pandemic 'Streetspace' scheme implemented by the Mayor of London and TfL, as unlawful and against good planning. Certainly something that DCC should take note of.

And less of the personal digs too please Ted, I can play that game if you'd like, but playing the man when you can't get near a ball only reflects badly on you.

If 24 access for deliveries is given, delivery should be done in small electric cycle carts as done in pedestrianised areas like is done on mainland Europe

Macy0161 · 21-01-2021 3:36pm

cletus wrote: »

I'm not challenging the height of the Dutch nation, it was more the suggested correlation between that and cycling. The post was mostly tongue in cheek

They need to get more aero ffs!

Larbre34 · 21-01-2021 3:42pm

BabysCoffee wrote: »

If 24 access for deliveries is given, delivery should be done in small electric cycle carts as done in pedestrianised areas like is done on mainland Europe

Agreed.

I do think something the City Council could turn their hand positively to is a 'break of bulk' plan for between the canals. There are too many larger vans and rigid trucks making deliveries on-street in the City centre. Now that electric vehicle tech is becoming a highly practical alternative, theres no reason a location on each side of the City couldn't be identified to deliver goods to for onward dispatch in smaller electric vehicles, though perhaps cycle carts might be a stretch.

Grassey · 21-01-2021 4:51pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

though perhaps cycle carts might be a stretch.

Not seen these?

2019/dhl-rolls-out-its-cubicycle-in-new-york-city-participating-in-new-pilot-program-to-test-the-use-of-cargo-bikes-to-alleviate-traffic-congestion.html

Or

https://www.environmentalleader.com/2020/05/dhl-electric-cargo-bikes-miami/

Larbre34 · 21-01-2021 5:39pm

Very nice.

Like Dublin Bikes, if they are a workable solution, they will find success.

ted1 · 21-01-2021 5:49pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Agreed.

I do think something the City Council could turn their hand positively to is a 'break of bulk' plan for between the canals. There are too many larger vans and rigid trucks making deliveries on-street in the City centre. Now that electric vehicle tech is becoming a highly practical alternative, theres no reason a location on each side of the City couldn't be identified to deliver goods to for onward dispatch in smaller electric vehicles, though perhaps cycle carts might be a stretch.

Like this : https://fora.ie/freight-delivery-dublin-belfast-3994224-May2018/

https://www.google.ie/amp/s/fleet.ie/world-first-in-dublin-as-ups-dublin-city-council-innovate-to-reinvent-sustainable-last-mile-deliveries/%3famp

https://cyclingindustry.news/irelands-an-post-to-roll-out-electric-cargo-bike-fleet-with-greenaer/

Seth Brundle · 22-01-2021 10:33am

https://twitter.com/dublincycling/status/1352351941859430403

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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