Baldonnell as a freight hub?

basill · 30-01-2021 3:40pm

With todays news of the planned fulfillment centre going in beside Baldonnel perhaps this thread isn't so far fetched afterall. US inward investment upgrading a military airport to modern all weather standards for mixed use would certainly present a good news story for local TDs and government to hang their hats on. Small change for Amazon. Time will tell.

roadmaster · 30-01-2021 7:23pm

basill wrote: »

With todays news of the planned fulfillment centre going in beside Baldonnel perhaps this thread isn't so far fetched afterall. US inward investment upgrading a military airport to modern all weather standards for mixed use would certainly present a good news story for local TDs and government to hang their hats on. Small change for Amazon. Time will tell.

I dont think it will be case of upgrading more a case of bye bye casement aerodrome hello Amazon Aerodrome in the long term . Like you say it would be small change for amazon an easy for them to buy out casement from the government. i know people have mentioned runway length but even at that they could use ATRs like that cargo one that fly's Shannon to Paris every night. An amazon have already started to buy aircraft

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-05/amazon-makes-first-aircraft-purchase-to-expand-delivery-network

deandean · 30-01-2021 8:10pm

I reckon the 2nd runway at DUB will cater for all these cargo needs.

Negative_G · 30-01-2021 8:27pm

deandean wrote: »

I reckon the 2nd runway at DUB will cater for all these cargo needs.

Don't let common sense get in the way.

Amazon Aerodrome all the way.

roadmaster · 30-01-2021 8:53pm

Negative_G wrote: »

Don't let common sense get in the way.

Amazon Aerodrome all the way.

The government would not think twice of selling Casement if it came down to it. 100s of extra jobs and corporate tax is all that matters

Teebor15 · 01-02-2021 9:51am

Sell Casement and move the Aer Corps to Shannon. Keep a small base at DUB for the Garda Heli and Gov Learjet, maybe next to the CHC base.

jeepcj · 02-02-2021 1:16pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

Sell Casement and move the Aer Corps to Shannon. Keep a small base at DUB for the Garda Heli and Gov Learjet, maybe next to the CHC base.

Operating a police heli out of a international airport would never work, too many restrictons

Teebor15 · 02-02-2021 2:56pm

Of course it would work, R116, the CHC rescue helicopter operates just fine.

a/tel · 02-02-2021 9:35pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

Of course it would work, R116, the CHC rescue helicopter operates just fine.

The security provided by Casement cannot be replicated in DUB unless a secure compound, hanger and associated maintenance facility is built. Basing AC pilots outside a military establishment could be a logistical issue also.

Irish Steve · 02-02-2021 9:37pm

Teebor15 wrote: »

Of course it would work, R116, the CHC rescue helicopter operates just fine.

It works well at the moment because the majority of the time the active runway is 28, so the separation from the CHC base is sufficient to allow almost parallel operation, but when the new runway comes into use, that will make things a bit more complex, as the CHC base won't have adequate separation from 28R in the same way, so the coordination of operations will be more complex, albeit still achievable. The same would be true for police operations.

Victor · 02-02-2021 10:56pm

Irish Steve wrote: »

It works well at the moment because the majority of the time the active runway is 28, so the separation from the CHC base is sufficient to allow almost parallel operation, but when the new runway comes into use, that will make things a bit more complex, as the CHC base won't have adequate separation from 28R in the same way, so the coordination of operations will be more complex, albeit still achievable. The same would be true for police operations.

With two runways in operation, frequency of use of an individual runway will drop.

Irish Steve · 03-02-2021 12:20am

Victor wrote: »

With two runways in operation, frequency of use of an individual runway will drop.

True, but bear in mind that anything below 1000 Ft and within 5 miles will potentially inhibit activity from the SAR base, which is not the case with the operations on 28(L) at present, due to the horizontal separation distance that exists. Occasional issues can arise now if 16/34 is active, but that's relatively rare. 28R/10L becoming active will change how CHC can get in and out, their operation won't be prevented, but could be delayed on occasions, and if for some reason 28L/10R were to be out of service, then the activity on the northern runway would have an effect on the CHC base operations.

roadmaster · 03-02-2021 12:26am

Irish Steve wrote: »

True, but bear in mind that anything below 1000 Ft and within 5 miles will potentially inhibit activity from the SAR base, which is not the case with the operations on 28(L) at present, due to the horizontal separation distance that exists. Occasional issues can arise now if 16/34 is active, but that's relatively rare. 28R/10L becoming active will change how CHC can get in and out, their operation won't be prevented, but could be delayed on occasions, and if for some reason 28L/10R were to be out of service, then the activity on the northern runway would have an effect on the CHC base operations.

If there is going to be potential issues why did they let them build a new base where it is

Victor · 03-02-2021 1:07am

Irish Steve wrote: »

True, but bear in mind that anything below 1000 Ft and within 5 miles will potentially inhibit activity from the SAR base, which is not the case with the operations on 28(L) at present, due to the horizontal separation distance that exists. Occasional issues can arise now if 16/34 is active, but that's relatively rare. 28R/10L becoming active will change how CHC can get in and out, their operation won't be prevented, but could be delayed on occasions, and if for some reason 28L/10R were to be out of service, then the activity on the northern runway would have an effect on the CHC base operations.

Surely there is a few minutes between CHC receiving the call and take-off and that a slot can be opened up?

Dohvolle · 05-02-2021 11:29am

a/tel wrote: »

The security provided by Casement cannot be replicated in DUB unless a secure compound, hanger and associated maintenance facility is built. Basing AC pilots outside a military establishment could be a logistical issue also.

They did it in Waterford and Shannon for years. Besides, there is no reason GASU aircraft need to be flown by air corps pilots. Civvy pilots could do the job just as easily. It works everywhere else.

HTCOne · 05-02-2021 10:38pm

Shannon in talks with Amazon about a possible distribution facility, which makes more sense than Casement to put it mildly....

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/amazon-in-talks-over-key-facility-at-shannon-airport-40033977.html

LXFlyer · 05-02-2021 11:21pm

I hate to burst a few bubbles here.

The elephant in the room here is the flightpath of the runway and the housing underneath and around it.

I find it extraordinary that over the three and bit pages here, some of the proponents of the notion don't even seem to realise that.

I really cannot see the local communities across south Dublin accepting the idea of Baldonnel's conversion to a cargo airport with a consequent uplift in activity and aircraft size and noise .

The approach to the main runway is across Tallaght, Templeogue, Knocklyon, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer and Dundrum.

At present there are limited flight operations at the airfield, that cause minimal noise disruption to those residents.

The idea that people are going to suddenly accept much greater activity and noise, and at night, is to me farcical.

I cannot see that ever being acceptable to the residents, and politically it could be suicidal for a party that pushed for it.

roadmaster · 06-02-2021 12:50am

LXFlyer wrote: »

I hate to burst a few bubbles here.

The elephant in the room here is the flightpath of the runway and the housing underneath and around it.

I find it extraordinary that over the three and bit pages here, some of the proponents of the notion don't even seem to realise that.

I really cannot see the local communities across south Dublin accepting the idea of Baldonnel's conversion to a cargo airport with a consequent uplift in activity and aircraft size and noise .

The approach to the main runway is across Tallaght, Templeogue, Knocklyon, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer and Dundrum.

At present there are limited flight operations at the airfield, that cause minimal noise disruption to those residents.

The idea that people are going to suddenly accept much greater activity and noise, and at night, is to me farcical.

I cannot see that ever being acceptable to the residents, and politically it could be suicidal for a party that pushed for it.

What are the locals going to do with the noise from the A400Ms, F18's and AW101s that the department of defence are buying for the air corps

On a serious note if the government decided to act like a proper grown up country and actually bought the air corps heavy lift transport aircraft or even some sort of interceptor they would make a lot more noise so would there be trouble down the road with residents?

LXFlyer · 06-02-2021 9:18am

roadmaster wrote: »

What are the locals going to do with the noise from the A400Ms, F18's and AW101s that the department of defence are buying for the air corps

On a serious note if the government decided to act like a proper grown up country and actually bought the air corps heavy lift transport aircraft or even some sort of interceptor they would make a lot more noise so would there be trouble down the road with residents?

There’s a huge difference between Baldonnel being operated as an Air Corps base with relatively infrequent flight operations (even with noisier aircraft), and turning the airport into a cargo base which would have much greater numbers of daily flight ops and at night over heavily populated areas.

I could never see the latter taking off for that reason.

Chris_5339762 · 06-02-2021 1:03pm

roadmaster wrote: »

What are the locals going to do with the noise from the A400Ms, F18's and AW101s that the department of defence are buying for the air corps

On a serious note if the government decided to act like a proper grown up country and actually bought the air corps heavy lift transport aircraft or even some sort of interceptor they would make a lot more noise so would there be trouble down the road with residents?

I, for one, would completely support the odd F18 doing touch-and-gos at Baldonnel. I would actively encourage it, actually.

Dohvolle · 06-02-2021 9:35pm

Main runway not long enough for normal operations. Ideally would also need a parallel taxiway.
Move the whole lot to Shannon over a phased period. Let the locals have their lie ins.

faoiarvok · 07-02-2021 1:50am

roadmaster wrote: »

What are the locals going to do with the noise from the A400Ms, F18's and AW101s that the department of defence are buying for the air corps

It’s the understated, off-hand tone that raises this to really top quality trolling.

*chef’s kiss* Bravo

AlekSmart · 07-02-2021 2:46pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

I hate to burst a few bubbles here.

The elephant in the room here is the flightpath of the runway and the housing underneath and around it.

I find it extraordinary that over the three and bit pages here, some of the proponents of the notion don't even seem to realise that.

I really cannot see the local communities across south Dublin accepting the idea of Baldonnel's conversion to a cargo airport with a consequent uplift in activity and aircraft size and noise .

The approach to the main runway is across Tallaght, Templeogue, Knocklyon, Rathfarnham, Ballinteer and Dundrum.

At present there are limited flight operations at the airfield, that cause minimal noise disruption to those residents.

The idea that people are going to suddenly accept much greater activity and noise, and at night, is to me farcical.

I cannot see that ever being acceptable to the residents, and politically it could be suicidal for a party that pushed for it.

Over 30 years ago now,I attended a Public Meeting held by Ryanair (I forget the location,but possibly The Belgard Inn) on the topic of the Airline's suggestion to accquire Baldonnel and use it as their Dublin base.

The plan allowed for a new access spur to and from the N7 and the provision of new facilities for the Aer Corps to allow shared operations.

Some Local politicians along with Dr Tony Ryan hisself,were in attendance along with other senior managerial figures,but no M O'L as far as I recall.

The meeting did not go well for Ryanair,as outlined by LxFlyer the locals were not in the least impressed with the possibility of Jets falling from the sky or whizzin over the rooftops on approach.

Such was the vehemence of the response,it appears Ryanair reasessed it's plan and I heard no more of it in the locality.

Oh well.....at least we sleep soundly in our beds at night.

Mind you,it does remind one of why Ireland never embarked on a Lunar Programme

California Dreamer · 08-02-2021 8:47am

Dohvolle wrote: »

Main runway not long enough for normal operations. Ideally would also need a parallel taxiway.
Move the whole lot to Shannon over a phased period. Let the locals have their lie ins.

Maybe the locals shouldn't have moved to an area that had an airport right beside it!??!?!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Dohvolle · 08-02-2021 10:50am

California Dreamer wrote: »

Maybe the locals shouldn't have moved to an area that had an airport right beside it!??!?!:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Tell that to the recently arrived residents of the Glen of Imaal who complain about army lorries passing their house throughout the night.....

CrabRevolution · 22-03-2021 4:03pm

The posts suggesting that various services at other airports just close and move to Shannon remind me of the Onion article "New STEM Initiative Just Tries To Dissuade Students In Other Countries From Pursuing Science Careers".

Are things that bad in Shannon that they have to resort to suggesting other airports shut down in order to give Shannon more to do?

Dohvolle · 22-03-2021 7:08pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The posts suggesting that various services at other airports just close and move to Shannon remind me of the Onion article "New STEM Initiative Just Tries To Dissuade Students In Other Countries From Pursuing Science Careers".

Are things that bad in Shannon that they have to resort to suggesting other airports shut down in order to give Shannon more to do?

Shannon has spare capacity, and room for expansion. Baldonnel, once surrounded by green fields a few miles outside dublin, is now contracting, and being swallowed by development around it. It needs a longer runway, Shannon already has one.

Psychlops · 22-03-2021 9:33pm

a/tel wrote: »

The security provided by Casement cannot be replicated in DUB unless a secure compound, hanger and associated maintenance facility is built. Basing AC pilots outside a military establishment could be a logistical issue also.

Of course it can. Any stop can be pulled out, Dublin is secure enough as it is right now.

Psychlops · 23-03-2021 9:46pm

Air Corps goes from weakness to weakness..You cant spin this in a positive light no matter how you look at it. Same for the Navy.

https://flyinginireland.com/2021/03/cae-to-train-irish-air-corps-pilots-in-the-usa/

Strumms · 23-03-2021 11:46pm

Not enough ramp space both for parking and handling multiple widebody / narrowbody aircraft... storage for ULDs, storage for GSE, offices for the staff, parking for staff...

Parking for aircraft ? Where ? There are daily flights operated by / for... UPS, FedEx, DHL, TNT, plus the weekly Air France 777F / 747 and some smaller operators.not enough parking / ramp space..... where is the office space for load masters, ramp loaders / agents, managers, GSE maintenance, pilot briefing, ramp control, and break rooms, toilets, cloakrooms, meeting rooms, training rooms.. GSE parking, tugs, mulags, baggage carts, dollys ? Crew van ?

You ‘see’ a cargo aircraft being loaded, that’s the ‘end’ product... but to make it go smoothly...more space, more hours, more people, equipment, vehicles...places to store them...not even near or anywhere close to being near enough space in baldonnel, airside or landslide.

Also be issues with the transfer of cargo from a legal / security / customs point of view...DOT will never approve it without massive investment and changes... operators won’t want it, it’s not an appropriate facility... not unless the aer corps end up elsewhere.

Baldonnell as a freight hub?

Comments