Baldonnell as a freight hub?

andrewfaulk

I am aware that this one has been picked over more than a few times, with Ryanair digging it up every so often to try and hammer the DAA on pricing.

My question is could Baldonnel end up as a 2nd airport for Dublin, handling freight rather than Pax on a limited basis.. for Amazon

A few talking points on this:

1)Amazon have opened their first Irish warehouse in the past few weeks in Greenogue business park, not more than 50m from the boundary of Baldonnel. As we all know, they are expanding their in house logistics offering, including Amazon Air with aircraft chartered from various ACMI providers(including ASL). In a post Brexit world, could the have the volume to fill a daily rotation to mainland Europe using at 737F?
2) Extra revenue for DOD through landing fees, that could be used to provide 24hr coverage on Fire and ATC

L1011

The DOD likely have zero interest in this, which is the important thing.

andrewfaulk

L1011 wrote: »

The DOD likely have zero interest in this, which is the important thing.

If it meant a few €m a year in landing fees would that still be the case I wonder?

Maybe a separate(west) Apron for freight ops would smooth things over a little.

Strumms

The investment required from the DOD would be probative. Also the investment needed from a ground handler
....For starters

You’d need a ground handling agent who’d need to invest cash in...

Staff -

Ramp agents, loadmasters, operations, flight dispatchers, GSE maintenance, managers etc..

Ground handling equipment -

High loaders, low loaders, belt loaders, pushback tugs, ground power units, tow tractors for transfer of freight, dollys. trucks with roller beds.

All at least x2... that stuff costs BIG time. The air corps won’t be lending their gear or staff to a civilian operator.

A lot less hassle to say to DHL, UPS and their competition at DUB that they want to pre book, xx number of positions on their aircraft, build freight on pallets / ulds. Might need to bring in a bigger aircraft but the extra volume will pay the extra cost,

Office space -

Folks doing flight paperwork, weight and balance, dangerous goods manifest, all that needs to be considered and ALL that paperwork needs filing for xx days... DOD won’t be building office space.

Tabnabs

Oslo Airport, Gardermoen is a joint civilian and military location and Frankfurt Airport was home to the USAF Rhein-Main Air Base until 2005.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

jmayo

Chania in Crete is joint civilian and military.

US Navy in Souda base uses it.

Hence why the whole area is pixelated in Google maps.

andrewfaulk

Strumms wrote: »

The investment required from the DOD would be probative. Also the investment needed from a ground handler
....For starters

You’d need a ground handling agent who’d need to invest cash in...

Staff -

Ramp agents, loadmasters, operations, flight dispatchers, GSE maintenance, managers etc..

Ground handling equipment -

High loaders, low loaders, belt loaders, pushback tugs, ground power units, tow tractors for transfer of freight, dollys. trucks with roller beds.

All at least x2... that stuff costs BIG time. The air corps won’t be lending their gear or staff to a civilian operator.

A lot less hassle to say to DHL, UPS and their competition at DUB that they want to pre book, xx number of positions on their aircraft, build freight on pallets / ulds. Might need to bring in a bigger aircraft but the extra volume will pay the extra cost,

Office space -

Folks doing flight paperwork, weight and balance, dangerous goods manifest, all that needs to be considered and ALL that paperwork needs filing for xx days... DOD won’t be building office space.

I don't think anyone is suggesting DOD invest in anything, other than maybe some extra staff training and a new fire tender. The private operator would look after all handling ops, on their own apron away from Mil ops..

And yes the investment would be large up front, but interest rates are in the -%.. Also bear in mind, 6 years ago there was no Amazon air, now it has ~70 aircraft operating for it.. That is some rate of growth by any measure. They are actively building an in house logistics network, and minimising their use of the big consolidators(UPS,DHL, Fedex).

basill

Baldonnel is not an all weather airport. Cargo operators want to be able to land all year round and not face the prospect of having to divert to Dublin. The funds needed to upgrade BAL would far outweigh the financial benefits to the State.

faoiarvok

Cargo ops are more complicated than flying a few planes in from somewhere and out to somewhere. A huge amount of cargo travels in the hold of passenger flights, and this needs to be integrated with packages going in and out on cargo only flights. This obviously happens at hubs with plenty of passenger ops also.

I don’t think the convenience of a field right next to your warehouse outweighs the convenience of a large hub just down the road with movements from all over (in normal times...) and presence of all the other logistics companies.

Strumms

Space will be a huge issue airside, you’ll need space for parking of at least two widebody / narrow body jets.

You’ll need storage for 50 plus or so Ulds / pallets and nets.

Parking space and maintenance for ALL the extra GSE ... two highloaders, two low loaders ( depending on aircraft types maybe more ) and multiple mulags, dollys, spill kits...

Looking at the google maps view of baldonnel...I’d say a non starter unless there would be a serious redesign of the ramp, taxiways and added infrastructure.

dogmatix

There is also the security aspect. Baldonnel is a military establishment so there would have to be a secure level of separation between the commercial area and the rest of the airbase. A separate entrance would be needed for the cargo area and I would imagine the air corps would have to monitor the commercial area 24/7 to prevent any access to the military area (both unintended and intended).

roundymac

You can be sure if it were to go ahead DOD won't see a penny of it.

Tenger

Tabnabs wrote: »

Oslo Airport, Gardermoen is a joint civilian and military location and Frankfurt Airport was home to the USAF Rhein-Main Air Base until 2005.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

Thats true, but it needs "a will" to even contemplate planning such a project.

Stovepipe

It's far too small. Strumms is exactly right. When you see how much of Dublin Airport is consumed by cargo facilities/storage/parking, even before you consider the size of ramp space freighters need,then Baldonnel is too small, it's taxiways and probably the short runway inadequate for anything bigger than an ATR. A loaded 737 cargo aircraft would have trouble getting in and out of there and the late night noise effect on local housing would be immense. At best, limited ATR or equivalent turbo prop operations.

POBox19

A huge investment would be required to upgrade Casement Aerodrome so it could handle commercial aircraft operations. It would be a lot less costly to move Amazon's warehouse closer to Dublin Airport.

Not to mention SNN two hours drive down the road with the only runway long enough for the biggest cargo planes...

HTCOne

BAL is a tiny airfield with small taxiways and runways unsuitable for fully loaded cargo jets, and I can only imagine the wind shear that close to the mountains in a southerly gale. As said earlier, MO’L talking it up occasionally as an alternative to DUB is just publicity and to try to exert pressure on the DAA. It was like years ago during an industrial dispute when he called for Air Corps controllers to take over ops for DUB, conveniently forgetting to mention there were only about 4 of them.

xper

If you want another nail in the coffin, also consider that freight is, in normal times, concentrated in night time ops and the approach to rwy 28 which would be the most commonly used, is over a large swathe of the city suburbs.

If Baldonnel was ever going to develop into a joint commercial/military airport, it would have required building the civil apron and terminal facilities on the opposite side from the military base but the industrial estate is there now. The only thing I could possibly see as feasible in the future is a small operation to facilitate private jet traffic and other specialist GA operators. That could possibly be a little earner for the DoD that wouldn’t interfere with military ops and might be desirable if Weston finally turns into houses. This wouldn’t likely extend to accommodating flight schools and other light aircraft tootling around the pattern all day, though

Stovepipe

I agree. I suspect Weston will be housing in a year or two, if it even lasts that long as an airfield. It would be relatively simple to install an FBO like Signature into Baldonnel with it's own terminal and ramp space. Every municipal airport in America does it, as second nature, on airfileds often smaller than Baldonnel. You offer them cheaper parking and handling than Dublin Airport and they'd be there like a shot and the DAA would be glad to be rid of them.

Strumms

Collin Large Skit wrote: »

Not to mention SNN two hours drive down the road with the only runway long enough for the biggest cargo planes...

Two hours is an awful long time in terms of express cargo whose delivery commitments at the destination are enshrined in contracts whereby failure if not covered by the Warsaw Convention means shipping is free unless tech / weather intervenes which IS covered.

No cargo of an express nature is going to be going Leinster - SNN.

Cargo arrives at SNN, you may have the need to X-Ray it, ETD it, containerize it in ULDs / on pallets. Two and a bit hours driving to SNN, offloading, transit through handling agent. Freight getting airside, loaded, checked. Minimum four hours to the truck leaving Dublin and the first ULD on the aircraft in SNN. That’s a generous guesstimate but from experience.

IF DG it needs checks, loading, tie down, possible halon bottles hooked up, manifest entry, completion, crew checks...

The cost too of daily 40ft trucks shunting tones of freight DUB - SNN would be humongous, thousands a week. When you’ve got DUB at a fraction of the cost, better cargo handling facilities. Yearly savings would be huge.

Runway in DUB isn’t an issue. I’ve been loadmaster on aircraft landing with 41/42 tonnes, departing with 30+. BAL might need some work I don’t know, cheaper than not doing it.

salamiii

airports need large runways for large cargo planes

Victor

It's all about hubs. Baldonnel isn't and likely can't become a hub. Dublin Airport is a hub and will likely expand. Using a forklift to take a container off one plane and putting it on another is a lot simpler and cheaper than adding a truck an a second forklift into the mix.

Stovepipe wrote: »

I agree. I suspect Weston will be housing in a year or two, if it even lasts that long as an airfield. It would be relatively simple to install an FBO like Signature into Baldonnel with it's own terminal and ramp space. Every municipal airport in America does it, as second nature, on airfileds often smaller than Baldonnel. You offer them cheaper parking and handling than Dublin Airport and they'd be there like a shot and the DAA would be glad to be rid of them.

I'm not so sure that DAA will be turning its nose up at any business in the short term. In the medium term, the second runway means that light(er) aircraft aren't a burden on slots.

Strumms wrote: »

Two hours is an awful long time in terms of express cargo whose delivery commitments at the destination are enshrined in contracts whereby ...

Hang on, I’m not on about shutting DUB, I’m just saying there’s a second airport that would take up a prospective BAL’s freight business that is already operating without the capital cost of all the work that’d need doing in BAL.

Marcusm

andrewfaulk wrote: »

I am aware that this one has been picked over more than a few times, with Ryanair digging it up every so often to try and hammer the DAA on pricing.

My question is could Baldonnel end up as a 2nd airport for Dublin, handling freight rather than Pax on a limited basis.. for Amazon

A few talking points on this:

1)Amazon have opened their first Irish warehouse in the past few weeks in Greenogue business park, not more than 50m from the boundary of Baldonnel. As we all know, they are expanding their in house logistics offering, including Amazon Air with aircraft chartered from various ACMI providers(including ASL). In a post Brexit world, could the have the volume to fill a daily rotation to mainland Europe using at 737F?
2) Extra revenue for DOD through landing fees, that could be used to provide 24hr coverage on Fire and ATC

Unless Amazon changes its business model, I would expect that the Dublin warehouse will store the most commonly sold goods which will likely be delivered to the warehouse/fulfilment centre by land transport (trucks). We’ll still see a lot of Amazon packages delivered via air but those will have been handed off to the delivery system at the originating warehouse rather than be delivered from an air service provider to an Amazon warehouse and then onwards to a ground service provider.

donkey balls

As mentioned above trucking a large amount of freight is costly,, Take a aircraft like an MD11 F as an example.
The main deck can hold over 26 full size pallets/ULD you can fit 4 onto a 45ft trailer, The belly can take a mix of about 5 main deck pallets and about 12 AKE.
You can fit 8 AKE/LD3 on a 45ft trailer that's a lot of trucks needed for just one aircraft.

Negative_G

There are so many reasons why this will never be a runner in any format that I won't waste any time listing them. Most have been mentioned already.

The only prospect of civilian ops at Baldonnel would be in the form of bizjet traffic.

Northolt are in a similar, yet not quite full comparable situation. They offer a certain amount of slots every day to civil traffic between set hours. They maintain the authority to shut the airfield down to civil ops without any notification whatsoever. Hours of operation are strict so not always conducive to business travel.

Northolt, unlike Casement is a purely operational airfield. There is almost little to no training on site, and certainly no ab-initio flight training.

Given the limited approach procedures, limited ATC, limited (current) ground services, limited runway length, limited opening hours, and little to know difference in time to time to the city, its not going to be a runner.

If you have enough money to fund a business jet, you'll dance to your own tune, not to someone else's, even if it costs a couple of grand more to have full flexibility, which is the whole point of a business jet in the first place.

Casement Cargo Ops - zero probability
Casement Bizjet Ops - almost zero probability

Put it this way, if you are a big shot (google, FB, LinkedIn) executive traveling to visit your Dublin operation (not sure if the top mgmt travel by bicycle but let's assume they do).

Would you rather operate into an airfield with existing FBO's, long runways, 24hr ops, multiple ILS/RNAV/VOR approaches.

Or operate into an airfield with the longest runway being 6000ft, (the other about 5000ft), limited hours of operation, only one precision approach to a runway which is the opposite side of the prevailing wind the majority of the time.

Maybe the latter might, depending on the set up, offer a fractionally more flexibility due to it being less busy.

I imagine it'll be a hard pill to swallow when a bizjet misses a slot because there was a Cadet doing local VFR circuits at the same time.

bk

Plus I don't think it is really a warehouse in the traditional sense that Amazon have set up there, it is what they call a "delivery station".

I don't think they keep any stock there, they still have the stock in their UK warehouses, it gets loaded onto trucks in the UK and then shipped to this "delivery station" every day, where it gets broken down and shipped out by their delivery partners.

Amazon don't offer any next day delivery in Ireland, it is max 2 day delivery, so the above setup works well for them, with no need for expensive airfreight.

Of course this might change with Brexit or if they decide to offer next day/same day delivery.

EICVD

salamiii wrote: »

airports need large runways for large cargo planes

Haha we’re not talking about fully laden Antonovs here

HTCOne

No, but anything larger than an ATP or ATR is going to struggle.

roadmaster

bk wrote: »

Plus I don't think it is really a warehouse in the traditional sense that Amazon have set up there, it is what they call a "delivery station".

I don't think they keep any stock there, they still have the stock in their UK warehouses, it gets loaded onto trucks in the UK and then shipped to this "delivery station" every day, where it gets broken down and shipped out by their delivery partners.

Amazon don't offer any next day delivery in Ireland, it is max 2 day delivery, so the above setup works well for them, with no need for expensive airfreight.

Of course this might change with Brexit or if they decide to offer next day/same day delivery.

Have amazon not bought a large tract of land near Dublin Airport for warehouses,?

donkey balls

roadmaster wrote: »

Have amazon not bought a large tract of land near Dublin Airport for warehouses,?

They are building a Data center in Blanchardstown at first people thought it was going be a warehouse.
.