Boxing Thread 18/12 (Canelo v Smith & GGG v Szeremeta)

blade1 · 21-12-2020 2:19pm

walshb wrote: »

I like Canelo and rate him, but have to think that the older SMWs from years gone by would be too good...

Imagine a prime Kessler/Froch/Ward/Calzaghe in there....

They'd be far more dangerous than Callum bleedin Smith,

Barring a Canelo KO, which I don;t think he gets, I reckon Calzaghe eats him up with speed, feet, angles, roughness and busyness.

Froch would have the chin and power to really bother Canelo....and far taller and likely physically stronger

Ward; No need to say much here....

Kessler.....too strong and hits quite hard as well....take a great shot himself...

Froch would only beat canelo because he'd have 80'000 fans behind him!:D

nacho libre · 21-12-2020 3:23pm

Froch is tough, but he was limited enough. There is no way he beats Canelo.
Ward and Calzaghe probably would beat him.

I disagree that Smith did not not go there to win, of course he did. It's simply that he was outclassed by a better fighter. The moment they both smiled at each other in one of the late rounds summed up the contest for me. Smith's landed a punch and tried to follow it up , that punch would have landed against a lesser opponent, but Canelo saw it coming. Smith in that moment was acknowledging Canelo was the better fighter
I will be surprised if Saunders is keen to face Canelo now. Canelo will stop Saunders if they do match up. He won't be able to take the punishment Smith took.

squinn2912 · 21-12-2020 3:38pm

Funny I was thinking about how much I’d love to see Ward fighting Canelo. I think Ward would demolish him. I’d like to see Hopkins or Taylor in there too it would be vicious. I think Froch too rugged, he’d take some hits on the way in though so hard one to call.

Saunders has great footwork though as well. I don’t think he’s that easy for Canelo to tag. I think GGG would get stopped this time. A prime GGG beats Canelo for me and for me it’s a 1-1.

Canelo is awesome it can’t be denied. I just don’t root for him!

Anniepowaa · 21-12-2020 3:43pm

clueless the lot of ye absolutely no body past or now gets in the ring and demolishes canelo they may win but nobody is demolishing him

blade1 · 21-12-2020 3:54pm

Anniepowaa wrote: »

clueless the lot of ye absolutely no body past or now gets in the ring and demolishes canelo they may win but nobody is demolishing him

AJ :pac:

walshb · 21-12-2020 4:03pm

Anniepowaa wrote: »

clueless the lot of ye absolutely no body past or now gets in the ring and demolishes canelo they may win but nobody is demolishing him

I don't think anyone demolishes him.

He has brilliant ring generalship, IQ and smarts to allow him to be competitive

I just think from an era and ATG sense, there are many I would back to beat him at MW to SMW

Same way I think many beat GGG....

walshb · 21-12-2020 4:05pm

nacho libre wrote: »

Froch is tough, but he was limited enough. There is no way he beats Canelo.
Ward and Calzaghe probably would beat him.

I disagree that Smith did not not go there to win, of course he did. It's simply that he was outclassed by a better fighter. The moment they both smiled at each other in one of the late rounds summed up the contest for me. Smith's landed a punch and tried to follow it up , that punch would have landed against a lesser opponent, but Canelo saw it coming. Smith in that moment was acknowledging Canelo was the better fighter
I will be surprised if Saunders is keen to face Canelo now. Canelo will stop Saunders if they do match up. He won't be able to take the punishment Smith took.

I half agree with you on Smith.

It's either he didn't try hard enough, or he is just not that good

I don't think he is that good, and I think he fought a little too casually

A mix of both...

Another hyped Brit fighter who had done nothing of real note.....

He was so languid, labored and slow....looked like a giraffe in how he moved and threw punches...just not that good...

Froch I think would be a very tough fight for Canelo

And, Froch murders Smith by the way.....takes him out....

Froch would be 5 inches taller than Canelo, hit as hard, as physically strong, with a solid chin and body, and could fight and box....fit as a fiddle as well....and not afraid to give it a real go...

Yes, looked a bit awkward, but his size, strength and power combination would see Canelo struggle.....

Canelo is a MW really, and not a huge MW either....

walshb · 21-12-2020 6:39pm

Anyone else think Eubank and Canelo at 168 could be very interesting?

I don't rate Eubank all that much, but he has something about him....a chin, no fear, fit as fook.....a swagger.....and can be very good on defense as well...good inside puncher with decent power and good variation..

I think him and Canelo would make for a great scrap.....

Morrison J · 21-12-2020 7:44pm

walshb wrote: »

Anyone else think Eubank and Canelo at 168 could be very interesting?

I don't rate Eubank all that much, but he has something about him....a chin, no fear, fit as fook.....a swagger.....and can be very good on defense as well...good inside puncher with decent power and good variation..

I think him and Canelo would make for a great scrap.....

For a man with no fear he fought with a lot of it against Groves to be fair. Felt his power early and wouldn't engage thereafter. Anyone with a decent jab and bit of movement gives Eubank nightmares. Canelo has way too many tools in his arsenal imo wouldn't lose a round.

nacho libre · 21-12-2020 8:24pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Funny I was thinking about how much I’d love to see Ward fighting Canelo. I think Ward would demolish him. I’d like to see Hopkins or Taylor in there too it would be vicious. I think Froch too rugged, he’d take some hits on the way in though so hard one to call.

Saunders has great footwork though as well. I don’t think he’s that easy for Canelo to tag. I think GGG would get stopped this time. A prime GGG beats Canelo for me and for me it’s a 1-1.

Canelo is awesome it can’t be denied. I just don’t root for him!

Froch would be tough, but I see him losing widely on points or a possible late tko. Canelo has too much skill for him. Saunders is better than Smith, but again he is not good enough to beat Canelo.

I agree about Triple G, for me he actually won their last fight. He is in decline now, so I think the younger man beats him this time. Canelo in some fights did stack the odds in his favour, but he is a great fighter, and I'm happy i get to see him fight.

walshb · 21-12-2020 9:24pm

nacho libre wrote: »

Froch would be tough, but I see him losing widely on points or a possible late tko. Canelo has too much skill for him. Saunders is better than Smith, but again he is not good enough to beat Canelo.

I agree about Triple G, for me he actually won their last fight. He is in decline now, so I think the younger man beats him this time. Canelo in some fights did stack the odds in his favour, but he is a great fighter, and I'm happy i get to see him fight.

No idea where you’re getting Froch getting stopped..

Iron chin, and will be fighting back all night..strong as an ox..and naturally about 10-12 lbs bigger!

If Smith can last 12, Froch absolutely can.

Seriously, I think Canelo is getting overrated in an all time sense..

He is quality, no doubt..but he would no way be top dog at 168 from years ago..

squinn2912 · 21-12-2020 10:24pm

Can’t see Froch being stopped, especially against a man so much smaller than him. He would suit Canelo with his come forward, pressure style and I think it would be a fantastic spectacle. Likely outcome is Canelo on points but I’d give Froch more than a chance in that fight.

I stand by my point I think Ward would be all over him and possibly stop him.

I think Saunders has a decent chance. I’d expect him to come up just short. On Eubank, if he and Saunders were to fight again I think he’d win. Therefore I can see a good opportunity for Eubank against Canelo. He has got fantastic hand speed. I’d be tipping Canelo but very interesting fight.

selectamatic · 21-12-2020 10:31pm

Canelo would have to up his dosage of Mexican beef if he's to KO prime Froch in a fantasy stadium matchup :pac:

Morrison J · 21-12-2020 11:22pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

I think Saunders has a decent chance. I’d expect him to come up just short. On Eubank, if he and Saunders were to fight again I think he’d win. Therefore I can see a good opportunity for Eubank against Canelo. He has got fantastic hand speed. I’d be tipping Canelo but very interesting fight.

Triangle theories dont work though. Could easily say Callum Smith beat Groves who beat Eubank so on that basis Eubank doesn't have a prayer. Eubank is far too basic for a guy like Canelo imo don't see how he'd give him any problems.

walshb · 21-12-2020 11:26pm

Morrison J wrote: »

Triangle theories dont work though. Could easily say Callum Smith beat Groves who beat Eubank so on that basis Eubank doesn't have a prayer. Eubank is far too basic for a guy like Canelo imo don't see how he'd give him any problems.

I can’t stand triangle theories..

I just think Eubank’s style makes for a great scrap...

I think he’d definitely give it a go...

Of course, Canelo would be favorite, but Eubank could well make it very competitive..

squinn2912 · 22-12-2020 1:01am

I see what you’re saying about the triangle theories but I think there is something to draw from them. Fair enough if you dont like them. Eubank is a difficult guy to measure. He can look awesome or very basic but his arrogance could be very helpful to him against Canelo. It would be very exciting anyhow. I’d love to see if he could take Canelo’s power, my guess would be no. Can’t see him keeping Canelo off him.

nacho libre · 22-12-2020 2:16pm

walshb wrote: »

No idea where you’re getting Froch getting stopped..

Iron chin, and will be fighting back all night..strong as an ox..and naturally about 10-12 lbs bigger!

If Smith can last 12, Froch absolutely can.

Seriously, I think Canelo is getting overrated in an all time sense..

He is quality, no doubt..but he would no way be top dog at 168 from years ago..

Well, i believe Canelo has the punch accuracy and power to hurt Froch. Let's say he got him in trouble like Groves did, i believe he finishes him.
He beats Saunders, and he certainly would beat a limited Eubank JR. It would be a mauling, not in any way competitive

I think Canelo would beat a lot of the super- middleweight fighters of the last 30 years

Morrison J · 22-12-2020 2:30pm

walshb wrote: »

I can’t stand triangle theories..

I just think Eubank’s style makes for a great scrap...

I think he’d definitely give it a go...

Of course, Canelo would be favorite, but Eubank could well make it very competitive..

Eubank has the style to make for fun fights with anyone but I think people constantly fall into a trap believing the hype around his ability as he looks so good against B level opposition.

His chin still hasn't even been properly tested given he went into survival mode and refused to let his hands go against Groves. Could only expect he'd do the same against a puncher like Canelo. Would be happy just to last the distance. Don't see it as being remotely competitive tbh.

walshb · 22-12-2020 4:20pm

nacho libre wrote: »

Well, i believe Canelo has the punch accuracy and power to hurt Froch. Let's say he got him in trouble like Groves did, i believe he finishes him.
He beats Saunders, and he certainly would beat a limited Eubank JR. It would be a mauling, not in any way competitive

I think Canelo would beat a lot of the super- middleweight fighters of the last 30 years

Groves dropped Froch with a flush and perfect shot that Froch walked onto, whilst square....it was at the end of the round..who knows if there was 30-40 seconds left, Groves may well have closed the show.....

Froch was getting stronger and stronger during that fight, and shook off several heavy shots from Groves....Groves was peak, and back then he could punch hard.....

Canelo would be 4 inches shorter than Groves, and probably 4-5 inches shorter than Froch.

I think you are overrating Canelo if you think he stops Carl Froch, a big and strong and fit and heavy handed SMW, who has proved many times how good he takes a heavy punch...

Froch's chin is as good as GGGs, and he is bigger than GGG as well, with probably a better defense...

Canelo went life and death with GGG......

Are people taking too much from this Smith win? Smith was quite poor....if he wasn't trying, he was missing...he was just poncing around in second gear all night...

Blanco100 · 23-12-2020 12:57am

walshb wrote: »

Groves dropped Froch with a flush and perfect shot that Froch walked onto, whilst square....it was at the end of the round..who knows if there was 30-40 seconds left, Groves may well have closed the show.....

Froch was getting stronger and stronger during that fight, and shook off several heavy shots from Groves....Groves was peak, and back then he could punch hard.....

Canelo would be 4 inches shorter than Groves, and probably 4-5 inches shorter than Froch.

I think you are overrating Canelo if you think he stops Carl Froch, a big and strong and fit and heavy handed SMW, who has proved many times how good he takes a heavy punch...

Froch's chin is as good as GGGs, and he is bigger than GGG as well, with probably a better defense...

Canelo went life and death with GGG......

Are people taking too much from this Smith win? Smith was quite poor....if he wasn't trying, he was missing...he was just poncing around in second gear all night...

Canelo wins a UD against Froch. Would be so entertaining to watch though.

walshb · 23-12-2020 3:56pm

Blanco100 wrote: »

Canelo wins a UD against Froch. Would be so entertaining to watch though.

He could win a decision.

And I am betting it is based off his defense more than offense...

If both go toe to toe and trade, then for me, the fitter, bigger, stronger man wins....Froch would be too much in this scenario....mid and in close he would be very strong...

Canelo to win, will be slick and cute and pick shots and avoid getting tagged too much....big ask for me....

I would have to lean with Froch 7-8 times from 10 here....

I can't see how Canelo overcomes the size difference against a peak Froch....

Smith was a nothing in there...

Kovalev did ok, but was well past his best days, and performed like it was a spar....plus, he has a weakness with his chin and stamina...

Froch has strengths in key areas: Solid chin, very decent power, very fit, clearly bigger, can box and fight.....

Other than a washed up Kovalev and a very poor Smith we have nothing from Canelo to suggest he bests the likes of a prime Froch...

Both Kovalev and Smith went 11 and 12 rds with him...Froch does, too, and he will be far more a threat than either

nacho libre · 23-12-2020 5:19pm

walshb wrote: »

Groves dropped Froch with a flush and perfect shot that Froch walked onto, whilst square....it was at the end of the round..who knows if there was 30-40 seconds left, Groves may well have closed the show.....

Froch was getting stronger and stronger during that fight, and shook off several heavy shots from Groves....Groves was peak, and back then he could punch hard.....

Canelo would be 4 inches shorter than Groves, and probably 4-5 inches shorter than Froch.

I think you are overrating Canelo if you think he stops Carl Froch, a big and strong and fit and heavy handed SMW, who has proved many times how good he takes a heavy punch...

Froch's chin is as good as GGGs, and he is bigger than GGG as well, with probably a better defense...

Canelo went life and death with GGG......

Are people taking too much from this Smith win? Smith was quite poor....if he wasn't trying, he was missing...he was just poncing around in second gear all night...

Froch did get stronger against Groves, but Groves stamina is questionable. He tired badly in that fight.
I agree Froch could take a punch. I'm not saying Canelo Knocks him out with one shot, rather he may stop him due to cumulative damage. I don't think Froch's defense is good enough to stop Canelo from landing regularly. I'm not sure Froch has the power to deter Canelo from coming forward either.

Regarding the Smith fight, it might be Smith was exposed at this level, but ultimately i think it's a case of Canelo being a very good fighter. The reason
Smith was missing is largely down to Canelo's skill. It looks to me as if Smith knew after a few rounds he was out classed, he just wanted to go the distance there after.
A fight between Smith and Saunders in the next six months would be interesting. To find out where Saunders is at. I would prefer to see him face Canelo, but i get the impression Saunders is not really keen on that despite what he said in a interview to Kugan.

walshb · 23-12-2020 5:29pm

nacho libre wrote: »

Froch did get stronger against Groves, but Groves stamina is questionable. He tired badly in that fight.
I agree Froch could take a punch. I'm not saying Canelo Knocks him out with one shot, rather he may stop him due to cumulative damage. I don't think Froch's defense is good enough to stop Canelo from landing regularly. I'm not sure Froch has the power to deter Canelo from coming forward either.

Regarding the Smith fight, it might be Smith was exposed at this level, but ultimately i think it's a case of Canelo being a very good fighter. The reason
Smith was missing is largely down to Canelo's skill. It looks to me as if Smith knew after a few rounds he was out classed, he just wanted to go the distance there after.
A fight between Smith and Saunders in the next six months would be interesting. To find out where Saunders is at. I would prefer to see him face Canelo, but i get the impression Saunders is not really keen on that despite what he said in a interview to Kugan.

Canelo hasn't got some in your face mad stamina engine either.....

He is a patient and methodological fighter.....

So, cannot see how he builds up accumulation type stoppage against a far bigger man, who will be firing back with heavy shots himself, and who takes a great shot and is as fit as a fiddle.

Froch is not a dynamite puncher, but he absolutely hits heavy enough....

Canelo is not superman....he's a MW moving up here.....

Juts find it a bit odd that folks would think he is some clear winner against Froch at SMW....

Forch-Smith? Who you got? I think Froch takes him out.....

Smith was exposed.....he had nothing to really offer....Canelo did not suddenly become a magically amazing fighter here....

I have watched enough of Smith to tell me that he was never all that good.....

The other night was a mixture of two things: Not all that good, and not all that committed/interested. Maybe he feared Canelo.....no idea....but he is not all that good anyway...

nacho libre · 23-12-2020 11:40pm

walshb wrote: »

Canelo hasn't got some in your face mad stamina engine either.....

He is a patient and methodological fighter.....

So, cannot see how he builds up accumulation type stoppage against a far bigger man, who will be firing back with heavy shots himself, and who takes a great shot and is as fit as a fiddle.

Froch is not a dynamite puncher, but he absolutely hits heavy enough....

Canelo is not superman....he's a MW moving up here.....

Juts find it a bit odd that folks would think he is some clear winner against Froch at SMW....

Forch-Smith? Who you got? I think Froch takes him out.....

Smith was exposed.....he had nothing to really offer....Canelo did not suddenly become a magically amazing fighter here....

I have watched enough of Smith to tell me that he was never all that good.....

The other night was a mixture of two things: Not all that good, and not all that committed/interested. Maybe he feared Canelo.....no idea....but he is not all that good anyway...

You maybe right about Froch going the distance, but i see him losing by UD. Canelo is just too good for for him. Froch's best chance is if Canelo's can't take his best shots, but I see him being well able to take them. Froch being as fit and fiddle and tough just won't be enough to get the job done against Canelo.

Smith feared Canelo after a few rounds when he knew he was out matched. People put the Fielding performance down to complacency, but maybe it revealed Smith's true level. Having said that i still think Canelo is a great fighter. Let's remember he's only ever lost to Mayweather.

So i put this to his critics, who would he have to beat for you to acknowledge he is a very good fighter?

walshb · 24-12-2020 9:31am

nacho libre wrote: »

So i put this to his critics, who would he have to beat for you to acknowledge he is a very good fighter?

Where did I not acknowledge him a good fighter.

He’s a great fighter..

I just do not see him beating a fair few great SMWs through the years...

All down to natural size...he’s absolutely as good as them talent and skills wise.

nacho libre · 26-12-2020 3:11pm

walshb wrote: »

Where did I not acknowledge him a good fighter.

He’s a great fighter..

I just do not see him beating a fair few great SMWs through the years...

All down to natural size...he’s absolutely as good as them talent and skills wise.

Ok Fair enough. I see him beating most of them, except for Calzaghe, Ward and Jones.

walshb · 26-12-2020 3:35pm

nacho libre wrote: »

Ok Fair enough. I see him beating most of them, except for Calzaghe, Ward and Jones.

An in form Toney at 168 does a real number on Canelo..

I’d also back Eubank and McCallum and Kessler..

Gerald McClellan could actually KO Canelo I reckon..

squinn2912 · 27-12-2020 11:57pm

walshb wrote: »

An in form Toney at 168 does a real number on Canelo..

I’d also back Eubank and McCallum and Kessler..

Gerald McClellan could actually KO Canelo I reckon..

Surely you’d also tip Collins and Benn

28-12-2020 12:16am

nacho libre wrote: »

Canelo is a great fighter. Let's remember he's only ever lost to Mayweather.

And GGG.

walshb · 28-12-2020 12:32pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Surely you’d also tip Collins and Benn

Benn is a bit vulnerable for me.

I think Canelo handles Benn. But it would be a war while it lasted..

Collins? I’d have to favor Canelo. Better offense and defense. Collins a little too crude; but it would be a hard fought close fight..

Hagler would be too good for Canelo as well..

Hearns? Unless Canelo gets him out of there, I cannot see Canelo winning. Hearns was an excellent mid to long range fighter who could hit very hard..

squinn2912 · 29-12-2020 12:59am

walshb wrote: »

Benn is a bit vulnerable for me.

I think Canelo handles Benn. But it would be a war while it lasted..

Collins? I’d have to favor Canelo. Better offense and defense. Collins a little too crude; but it would be a hard fought close fight..

Hagler would be too good for Canelo as well..

Hearns? Unless Canelo gets him out of there, I cannot see Canelo winning. Hearns was an excellent mid to long range fighter who could hit very hard..

Two wars I’d fancy benn to get to him be incredible. Collins too rough and strong.

Sugar Ray and Durán as well I think all beat him but he’d still belong in that company which is an endorsement of how good he is

walshb · 29-12-2020 12:05pm

squinn2912 wrote: »

Two wars I’d fancy benn to get to him be incredible. Collins too rough and strong.

Sugar Ray and Durán as well I think all beat him but he’d still belong in that company which is an endorsement of how good he is

All tough and closely fought fights...

I'd have no issue with them beating him, or him beating them

I think SRL at 160 might be a little too sharp, fast and clever....Canelo kind of stuck in the mud against him...

I still think the Froch one is puzzling....

I'd make Froch a warmer favorite against Canelo than a smaller Duran and smaller Leonard and smaller Collins...

SRL and Duran were small MWs, and SRL was a small SMW...

At SMW, I'd have to lean with Canelo over SRL, who was slower and heavier and not the same fighter that he was a few years previously.

nacho libre · 03-01-2021 12:52pm

walshb wrote: »

An in form Toney at 168 does a real number on Canelo..

I’d also back Eubank and McCallum and Kessler..

Gerald McClellan could actually KO Canelo I reckon..

Toney might beat him. I don't see Kessler or Eubank beating him. His fundamentals are just too good. I don't think Benn Or McClellan beats him either, his chin is just too rock solid.

Boxing Thread 18/12 (Canelo v Smith & GGG v Szeremeta)

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