Public service pay cut?

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 12:05am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

A, thats entirely their own fault now isn't it?

B, private sector pensions can be defined benefit. You have choices in the private sector. It might cost more but that's a benefit we have. I don't get a Christmas bonus, plenty in private sector do. I don't get a reduced interest rate on my mortgage, plenty of bank staff do. I don't get a company car or travel. I don't get reduced cost flights like aer lingusb or reduced ferry like Irish ferries. There's a long list of what each organisation gives and what each careers benefits are. None of that means I or you should be dragged down or lose a benefit. It's not a race to the bottom.

C, in pay 7% to my pension. It's about the same as I paid in the private and that was based on a 2/3 pension. My current pension is 1/2. The difference is I would have paid into the private for 42 years compared to 30 now. I knew that going into my career.

D, you get 10,000 a year from the state pension. We don't. Factor that in.

Did you forget to mention your lump sum on retirement? Because that alone equates to several years of state pension right there, and none of us will live forever - so its not very nice to force the priv sec to live longer than the pubsec to even avail of their meagre state pension.

Private sector pensions can be defined benefit in the same way as you can win the lotto. This is limited in real terms to company directors - and those companies still ahve to be profitiable other wise youre not getting anything at all.

Worth noting that the highest paid pubsec the gardai have an incredibly early retirement age and of course legally there can be no private sector group to compare them with. Nice!

Geuze · 15-05-2020 12:05am

purifol0 wrote: »

Now riddle me this - why are private sector workers pension defined contribution whilst pubSec workers get Defined Benefit? Also why is it they pay only a fraction towards this?

Or that the law was changed so Priv Sec workers now have a higher retirement age than they do?

PS pay 6.5% pension cont and since 2009, the 10% PRD.

OK, I accept that the 10% PRD now applies after 32k, as part of the pay restoration.

But still, 16.5% on all wages over 32k.

addaword · 15-05-2020 12:06am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

it’s okay for my family to take a hit in standard of living but not yours?

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit yet again in this recession / pandemic, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

khalessi · 15-05-2020 12:09am

addaword wrote: »

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

I cant understand this no one made you choose your job. I presume you chose it because you had an interest or passion for it. You also have the choice to change at anytime.

This is it · 15-05-2020 12:09am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

You left your €350 Covid payment thread fairly quick when you were called out.

addaword · 15-05-2020 12:11am

khalessi wrote: »

I cant understand this no one made you choose your job. I presume you chose it because you had an interest or passion for it. You also have the choice to change at anytime.

The who country cannot be employed by the state. That was tried elsewhere and failed. Where do you think the money for the public service comes from?

bobbysands81 · 15-05-2020 12:11am

addaword wrote: »

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit yet again in this recession / pandemic, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

You fail the Civil Service exams?

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 12:16am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You fail the Civil Service exams?

Cheap shot, address the points.

bobbysands81 · 15-05-2020 12:18am

purifol0 wrote: »

Cheap shot, address the points.

That was a response to his/her pathetic cheap shot at all public servants.

If the poster is so bitter about their life choices then there’s not too much I can do about that. If the PS is such an attractive proposition then the poster should try and join it... maybe he/she has tried and failed thus bitter.

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 12:25am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That was a response to his/her pathetic cheap shot at all public servants.

If the poster is so bitter about their life choices then there’s not too much I can do about that. If the PS is such an attractive proposition then the poster should try and join it... maybe he/she has tried and failed thus bitter.

No, this thread is about whether or not the pubsec will get a pay cut. Not anyone's life choices. If pubsec members want to slate members of the private sector (who are literally taxed heavily to pay for an even larger amount of them than ever), and call them suckers for not joining up thats just bad form.

hardybuck · 15-05-2020 12:26am

I'm a civil servant earning a reasonably high salary, but in line with my professional field and similar to what I'd expect to earn in the private sector if I chose to return to it.

I'm earning less than I did in 2008 and working longer for it, but not complaining as I really enjoy my job. While salaries have gone up elsewhere, we were still hoping to get back to our previous level of pay that's never been restored.

While some people are quieter than usual due to the lack of a new Government, most people are absolutely flat out responding to this crisis. It'll be a mad summer if a new Government is formed.

That said, I'm realistic, and the last public sector pay cuts reduced the public sector paybill by several billion, and it might be inevitable that they go to the well again - but the nurses, Gardai and teachers will be hugely challenging.

The Civil Service is facing an age cliff and a large amount of retirements, another moratorium on recruitment would be a disaster.

addaword · 15-05-2020 12:28am

bobbysands81 wrote: »

That was a response to his/her pathetic cheap shot at all public servants.

I am not taking a cheap shot at all public servants. Some public servants work hard. Some deserve their salaries. I have family members and friends who are public servants, I guess most people have. We are still entitled to come to the conclusion "Public sector pay & pensions are simply too high in Ireland. Further our ps efficiency, flexibility & agility are far too low. "

hardybuck · 15-05-2020 12:30am

addaword wrote: »

I am not taking a cheap shot at all public servants. Some public servants work hard. Some deserve their salaries. I have family members and friends who are public servants, I guess most people have. We are still entitled to come to the conclusion "Public sector pay & pensions are simply too high in Ireland. Further our ps efficiency, flexibility & agility are far too low. "

You are entitled to your opinion but it should be informed by evidence.

addaword · 15-05-2020 12:33am

hardybuck wrote: »

You are entitled to your opinion but it should be informed by evidence.

I gave plenty of quotes from reports in the Irish Times, none of which were refuted.

The_Honeybadger · 15-05-2020 12:36am

Flavour Diaper wrote: »

I work in the civil service. Have had workload quadrupled, off my feet day after day after day since this started and straight into bed when I come home. Others on much higher salaries are pissing around in their gardens. I believe the civil service across all levels should have been leveled out at 350 a week in a show of solidarity with everyone else from the start of the pandemic.

I can relate to this, I moved to PS a few years ago, relatively high level, good salary, took a pay cut to do it partly for the job security and partly because I am very interested in the area I am now in. My workload has completely exploded since Covid19, I am hopelessly overloaded and every day is extremely stressful and difficult, albeit not as difficult as what business owners and the newly unemployed are facing. I have close family members whose lives have been completely upended in recent months and I understand how difficult it is for people.

The situation in the PS is very unusual, there are certain areas of the service like mine that have never ever had to work harder with no end in sight, and there are other areas now effectively idle with staff technically working from home but having no meaningful work to do by their own admission. How you could implement a blanket pay cut across the PS now in a fair manner I don’t know.

I don’t honestly expect pay cuts though, during the last recession austerity was the favoured approach but the PIGS (remember that acronym) were the pariahs of Europe, and there was little solidarity with other EU members or sympathy from them for that matter. This is a global issue and everyone is in the same boat. I think stimulus will be the approach this time.

hardybuck · 15-05-2020 12:37am

addaword wrote: »

I gave plenty of quotes from reports in the Irish Times, none of which were refuted.

Just had a look, and it appears that you quoted some Garda pay figures, and an average wage comparison between public and private - is that your evidence?

KaneToad · 15-05-2020 12:42am

mariaalice wrote: »

So a complete solo run by John Moran then?

You do realise that he left the dept of finance more than 6 years ago?

Beaverpunisher · 15-05-2020 12:45am

pinkyeye wrote: »

You see this is what bugs me about civil servants. BASIC salary for a paramedic is 36,000, that is not 600 per week, so why lie?

28.182 starting actually. And he didn’t say he was a Paramedic. There are numerous grades within the ambulance service

SouthWesterly · 15-05-2020 12:48am

addaword wrote: »

But not enough. According to the Irish Times report, it found that average public-sector wages in Ireland amounted to €47,400 compared with €33,900 in the private sector. That was well before Covid 19. In the past few months, many people from the private sector are on €350 per week.

Most are in the service in the last 4-5 years. They start on 24k now. I started on just over 21k .So should we take a 25% cut?

FGR · 15-05-2020 12:54am

Just to add - Private vs Public Sector wage comparisons are not fair when 137,000 people are on minimum wage alone in the private sector whereas the Public Sector does not have roles which warrant minimum pay (source). Not to mention the many roles that would not be comparative with a Public Sector job but still command a slightly higher than minimum wage.

I also enjoy the averages being used for pay - mix in the Clerical Officers with the Secretary Generals and everyone in between and the figures are incredibly skewed.

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 12:57am

SouthWesterly wrote: »

Most are in the service in the last 4-5 years. They start on 24k now. I started on just over 21k .So should we take a 25% cut?

Actually what should be done is figure out if your job can be outsourced to the private sector for less. Even better figure out if you are needed at all. The entire public service is massively over staffed as is. And the last recession proved that even after a huge amount of workers opted for retirement, they were not replaced simply because it turns out they were doing nothing productive or necessary at all.

Are you another pen pusher that could be outsourced for less or even completely obsoleted by a half decent programmer? Because if you are a clerical officer you absolutely can be, and frankly thats how it should be.

The private sector does not exist so you people can have handy jobs for life.

hardybuck · 15-05-2020 12:58am

FGR wrote: »

Just to add - Private vs Public Sector wage comparisons are not fair when a 137,000 are on minimum wage alone in the private sector whereas the Public Sector does not have roles which warrant minimum pay (source). Not to mention the many roles that would not be comparative with a Public Sector job but still command a slightly higher than minimum wage.

I also enjoy the averages being used for pay - mix in the Clerical Officers with the Secretary Generals and everyone in between and the figures are incredibly skewed.

Comparisons are a waste of time when you're not comparing like for like.

tayto lover · 15-05-2020 12:59am

addaword wrote: »

And how many public servants lost their pay and pensions during the pandemic? The private sector took all the pain.

I’m not a public sector worker but everyone took a hit in different ways.
You need to educate yourself.

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 1:05am

tayto lover wrote: »

I’m not a public sector worker but everyone took a hit in different ways.
You need to educate yourself.

Feel free to educate us.

hardybuck · 15-05-2020 1:11am

purifol0 wrote: »

Actually what should be done is figure out if your job can be outsourced to the private sector for less. Even better figure out if you are needed at all. The entire public service is massively over staffed as is. And the last recession proved that even after a huge amount of workers opted for retirement, they were not replaced simply because it turns out they were doing nothing productive or necessary at all.

Are you another pen pusher that could be outsourced for less or even completely obsoleted by a half decent programmer? Because if you are a clerical officer you absolutely can be, and frankly thats how it should be.

The private sector does not exist so you people can have handy jobs for life.

Do you have any evidence to support your views regarding overstaffing?

During the last recession there was a commitment in the civil service to explore greater utilisation of shared services, but outsourcing was mostly deemed unsuitable. As far as I can see a lot of private sector companies are quietly shelving outsourcing projects and doing things in house again.

Robotics is certainly already starting to get traction and will be the new fad to help drive cost cutting and efficiencies.

The moratorium as you point out resulted in a freeze on recruitment and promotions for 6 years. Anyone who retired or left wasn't replaced, which was partly offset by increased hours worked by fewer people, and other efficiencies, but it damaged the level of service that the public receive could receive. Our population is growing and that will place more demands from the sector.

In addition, it fuelled an age cliff that's going to result in a large exodus in the next few years which will create a lot of challenges.

GSBellew · 15-05-2020 1:30am

addaword wrote: »

It is all private sector families who have taken a hit yet again in this recession / pandemic, not public sector families.

We are all in this together? Yeah, right.

Different average salaries, different pensions, different retirement ages, different sick leave..

Not all public sector are on huge money, my wife's take home pay is less than €30 more than the €350 pandemic payment, she's been working full time throughout this, what do you want to cut her pay to?

I'm working in the private sector, so I see and experience both sides.

na1 · 15-05-2020 1:35am

purifol0 wrote: »

Wow. Meanwhile the state pension age for the private sector worker is 67!

Fair?

and to get the full contributory pension you need an average of 48 annual PRSI contributions. which means you need to be employed 92% of time since your first job until you reach 67.

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 1:45am

hardybuck wrote: »

Do you have any evidence to support your views regarding overstaffing?

During the last recession there was a commitment in the civil service to explore greater utilisation of shared services, but outsourcing was mostly deemed unsuitable. As far as I can see a lot of private sector companies are quietly shelving outsourcing projects and doing things in house again.

Robotics is certainly already starting to get traction and will be the new fad to help drive cost cutting and efficiencies.

The moratorium as you point out resulted in a freeze on recruitment and promotions for 6 years. Anyone who retired or left wasn't replaced, which was partly offset by increased hours worked by fewer people, and other efficiencies, but it damaged the level of service that the public receive could receive. Our population is growing and that will place more demands from the sector.

In addition, it fuelled an age cliff that's going to result in a large exodus in the next few years which will create a lot of challenges.

It damaged the level of service? Good god man do you have any idea just how low the level of service has always been? Do you think nearly half the general populace buys private health cover every year for the hell of it? Do you think people ring the Gardai with much faith in them to turn up? If you lose your passport on holiday you better hope its on a week day because our civil service still only works Pillar-Bank hours like its decades in the past. Actually so do most of our HSE staff that arent nurses or doctors eg physio's, radiologists etc.

You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.

Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.

I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?

Bus Eireann - high prices & unreliable service

Irish Rail - VERY high prices & service not guaranteed at commuting hours

FOI - freedom of information requests - can be done very quickly using computers - Civil service can respond to them as if they found the records by hand! Courtesy of Enda Kenny

Id like to address the rest but its 1:45am, maybe tomorrow.

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 1:51am

GSBellew wrote: »

Not all public sector are on huge money, my wife's take home pay is less than €30 more than the €350 pandemic payment, she's been working full time throughout this, what do you want to cut her pay to?

I'm working in the private sector, so I see and experience both sides.

Lower it to minimum wage if need be. If she leaves for a better job somewhere else job great. And if the position absolutely needs to be filled again the pay should be adjusted to attract a candidate back to the role.

Public sector shouldn't be any different to private sector in this regard. The state should only pay for what it needs, not exist to give people cushy govt jobs for life.

hardybuck · 15-05-2020 1:56am

purifol0 wrote: »

It damaged the level of service? Good god man do you have any idea just how low the level of service has always been? Do you think nearly half the general populace buys private health cover every year for the hell of it? Do you think people ring the Gardai with much faith in them to turn up? If you lose your passport on holiday you better hope its on a week day because our civil service still only works Pillar-Bank hours like its decades in the past. Actually so do most of our HSE staff that arent nurses or doctors eg physio's, radiologists etc.

You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.

Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.

I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?

Bus Eireann - high prices & unreliable service

Irish Rail - VERY high prices & service not guaranteed at commuting hours

FOI - freedom of information requests - can be done very quickly using computers - Civil service can respond to them as if they found the records by hand! Courtesy of Enda Kenny

Id like to address the rest but its 1:45am, maybe tomorrow.

I think you should go on Joe Duffy. He'd love you.

GSBellew · 15-05-2020 2:15am

purifol0 wrote: »

Lower it to minimum wage if need be. If she leaves for a better job somewhere else job great. And if the position absolutely needs to be filled again the pay should be adjusted to attract a candidate back to the role.

Public sector shouldn't be any different to private sector in this regard. The state should only pay for what it needs, not exist to give people cushy govt jobs for life.

So how many hours should those on the dole work for the €203?

purifol0 · 15-05-2020 2:22am

GSBellew wrote: »

So how many hours should those on the dole work for the €203?

Plenty of other threads that comment on our social welfare system. If we discuss that even slightly I just know this one would go completely off topic, not that it's not a worthy conversation especially when you look at how much is spent on welfare but it really needs its own thread

ILoveYourVibes · 15-05-2020 2:49am

No pay cuts for TD's of course.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-05-2020 3:48am

noodler wrote: »

Ministers and TDs have their pay linked to that of PO in the Civil Service - anything you have wve read about a Minister/TD getting a pay rise has actually simply been part of the wider PS.

Not so fast. TDs are linked to the civil service PO grade now, but back in the 80s they were linked to the HEO grade, which is two full grades lower and on little more than half the money.

Now, who do you think rubber-stamped that decision...?

MrDavid1976 · 15-05-2020 7:49am

I don’t expect that the increase scheduled for October will go ahead but you will expect a kick back from certain sectors.

However, the scope for cuts that was there in 2008 is not there now. All public servants are subject to a pension levy which makes a big indent on take home pay.

Aside from that - do we want austerity in the economy? Do business need a situation whereby the money that ends up back in the local economy is scaled back - that will lead to a reduction in demand and hit private sector employment?

Other countries have learned from the financial crisis and are looking at how to stimulate the economy - it will have repercussions down the line but a double dip recession will not help anyone.

All the IO’s - IMF, OECD and World Bank are pointing to stimulus as we emerge from this. But nice to see that Stephen Collins is back on his public sector mantra (despite the fact that the fat is not there to trim in terms of pay and is there any point have redundancies if people end up on the dole queue).

LillySV · 15-05-2020 8:09am

purifol0 wrote: »

It damaged the level of service? Good god man do you have any idea just how low the level of service has always been? Do you think nearly half the general populace buys private health cover every year for the hell of it? Do you think people ring the Gardai with much faith in them to turn up? If you lose your passport on holiday you better hope its on a week day because our civil service still only works Pillar-Bank hours like its decades in the past. Actually so do most of our HSE staff that arent nurses or doctors eg physio's, radiologists etc.

You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.

Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.

I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?

Bus Eireann - high prices & unreliable service

Irish Rail - VERY high prices & service not guaranteed at commuting hours

FOI - freedom of information requests - can be done very quickly using computers - Civil service can respond to them as if they found the records by hand! Courtesy of Enda Kenny

Id like to address the rest but its 1:45am, maybe tomorrow.

In regard to your problem about forms and data... you would probably be the first one to give out about data protection and the risk of sensitive data been compromised if extra care wasn’t taken.

In regards to Hse, everyone knows Hse is a shambles ... that’s a case of too many head honchos and not enough chiefs ... u can guarantee anyone on the ground is working .... if you think it’s such a handy pen pushers well paid job why don’t ya apply? Would love to see you “pen pushing” in a &e on a fri eve trying to get details off a drugged out tramp who’s arrived in with Stab wounds ...

In regards to porters... again... u be in here another day complaining that there is no clear instruction given to the public when they arrive into an office ...etc and by the way, porters get paid so little they be better on the dole

As regards bus Éireann and Irish rail... they have to provide transport to all of Ireland, even if it’s loss making routes ... as people will be complaining otherwise... people like you

So to sum it up.... can’t keep some people happy regardless.....

Anyways what u work at? Have u applied for a public sector well paid job lately?

almostover · 15-05-2020 8:43am

I work in a high tech manufacturing industry and this attitude of pay rises in the public sector have been agreed and were expecting them to be paid given the current economic depression is ludicrous. The money simply wont be available in the economy to support previously agreed public sector pay rises. COVID-19 has changed the playing field totally. The exchequer returns from the hospitality sector will be decimated. How can the public sector push for pay rises based on previously agreed deals knowing the money wont be there to pay for it?

In my own company many operators have been at home on 80% these past few weeks as demand for our product went to near zero in the space of a few weeks. Management levels in the company took a 10% pay cut in solidarity with them. Many temporary contracts have been cancelled. Luckily middle earners like me have survived without pay cuts so far and with our jobs intact.

The public vs. Private sector has been an eye opener for me on a recent lean course I took. There was a mix of attendees from both sectors. The private sector workers were supported in implementing their lean projects. The public sector worked were met with resistance at every stage of their project. Unions were opposed to measurement of performance and any efforts to improve it. 2 people on the course who work in the HSE had particular trouble. One person was trying to reduce the turnaround time on blood samples in a hospital lab and was met with fierce resistance. There's a reason why we sink so much money into the HSE and get the quality of service that we do.

15-05-2020 8:47am

Fred Cryton wrote: »

No no, silly. This is Ireland. In Ireland, we don't "cut" anything. We instead identify the narrow band of hard working middle income private sector higher rate taxpayers (around 20% of the population), and we simply increase their taxes yet again. More welfare and more public sector pay, sure why not? Wouldn't it be cruel not to? Just identify those people, tax them once again, and then pat yourself on the back for reducing "inequality".

We don't cut anything? Have you not seen the Haddington road agreement? Public sector pay has been cut.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/benefitsservices/pay/sept2008.pdf

Here is the payscale from 2008:
Basic grade pharmacist: 37425

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/hr-circulars/1-january-2020-consolidated-payscales.pdf
Payscale from 2020:
Basic grade pharmacist: 34077

And this is true throughout the HSE across all professions.

Edgware · 15-05-2020 8:49am

purifol0 wrote: »

Lower it to minimum wage if need be. If she leaves for a better job somewhere else job great. And if the position absolutely needs to be filled again the pay should be adjusted to attract a candidate back to the role.

Public sector shouldn't be any different to private sector in this regard. The state should only pay for what it needs, not exist to give people cushy govt jobs for life.

Couldn't we get some Bulgarians in to do it?

15-05-2020 9:28am

purifol0 wrote: »

You want to talk about ROBOTICS when we have highly paid pen pushers that still POST things to each other and everything is still hand written on paper. Even the driving license centres which were introduced after the last recession still to this day post forms all the way to Limerick. Oh they have broadband and a scanner at the desk, thats just not the way they do things.

Nurses union would strike immediately if a change in their work practices would take them away from filling forms all day at a desk.

I mean the PubSec employ porters FFS. A man that simply stands there all day saying which queue to join. How much do you think one of those would get paid in the privaate sector eh?
.

Is this really the level of debate we are down to now. Little more than a rant. Just making things up. Utter tripe. But keep venting if it helps you feel a bit better.

15-05-2020 9:36am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We don't cut anything? Have you not seen the Haddington road agreement? Public sector pay has been cut.

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/benefitsservices/pay/sept2008.pdf

Here is the payscale from 2008:
Basic grade pharmacist: 37425

https://www.hse.ie/eng/staff/resources/hr-circulars/1-january-2020-consolidated-payscales.pdf
Payscale from 2020:
Basic grade pharmacist: 34077

And this is true throughout the HSE across all professions.

I was around here for the last recession when the Public Service were attacked daily on boards. Facts like you have posted above get ignored. The anti PS people will not have their minds changed on anything. Total waste of time trying. You'd be as well just trolling them for your own entertainment.

Western_sean · 15-05-2020 9:47am

almostover wrote: »

....
The public vs. Private sector has been an eye opener for me on a recent lean course I took. There was a mix of attendees from both sectors. The private sector workers were supported in implementing their lean projects. The public sector worked were met with resistance at every stage of their project. Unions were opposed to measurement of performance and any efforts to improve it. 2 people on the course who work in the HSE had particular trouble. One person was trying to reduce the turnaround time on blood samples in a hospital lab and was met with fierce resistance. There's a reason why we sink so much money into the HSE and get the quality of service that we do.

Deleted User wrote: »

I was around here for the last recession when the Public Service were attacked daily on boards. Facts like you have posted above get ignored. The anti PS people will not have their minds changed on anything. Total waste of time trying. You'd be as well just trolling them for your own entertainment.

These 2 quotes re highlight the problem for me. Public sector unions seem happy to go to bat to protect their least productive and most intransigent members to the detriment and those who are willing and productive.

Since public sector employees are largely unionised the union position is, to some extent correctly, seen as the position of the majority of the employees. Those who pay for these services have valid frustrations and until productive and hardworking public sector employees are willing to challenge the behaviour of unions in the public sector those frustrations will continue to exist.

Thelonious Monk · 15-05-2020 9:51am

I've no beef with the public service but never understood why people say "the public service pays tax too!". They don't, they get given money from the exchequer and then give some of it back, which I always found pointless. Why not just pay them a net amount?

Geuze · 15-05-2020 9:52am

FGR wrote: »

Just to add - Private vs Public Sector wage comparisons are not fair when 137,000 people are on minimum wage alone in the private sector whereas the Public Sector does not have roles which warrant minimum pay (source). Not to mention the many roles that would not be comparative with a Public Sector job but still command a slightly higher than minimum wage.

I also enjoy the averages being used for pay - mix in the Clerical Officers with the Secretary Generals and everyone in between and the figures are incredibly skewed.

Comparing crude PS pay with private sector pay is not appropriate, for many reasons, as you say.

After the adjustments have been made, the PS pay premium that did exist, has been reduced.

For men, it is practically zero.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.

Note: lower paid PS tend to earn more, relative to the private sector.

Geuze · 15-05-2020 9:54am

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

No pay cuts for TD's of course.

TD wages are linked to a Civil Service grade.

They get exactly the same pay changes as PS.

So if PS pay is cut, their pay is cut.

That happened in 2008-2012, their pay was cut the exact same as all other PS.

Thelonious Monk · 15-05-2020 9:56am

Geuze wrote: »

TD wages are linked to a Civil Service grade.

They get exactly the same pay changes as PS.

So if PS pay is cut, their pay is cut.

That happened in 2008-2012, their pay was cut the exact same as all other PS.

Are ministers linked to CS wages? I know the Ministers and PM in New Zealand all took 25% cut. Would be nice to see our lot do the same in solidarity.

Geuze · 15-05-2020 9:59am

almostover wrote: »

The public vs. Private sector has been an eye opener for me on a recent lean course I took. There was a mix of attendees from both sectors. The private sector workers were supported in implementing their lean projects. The public sector worked were met with resistance at every stage of their project. Unions were opposed to measurement of performance and any efforts to improve it. 2 people on the course who work in the HSE had particular trouble. One person was trying to reduce the turnaround time on blood samples in a hospital lab and was met with fierce resistance. There's a reason why we sink so much money into the HSE and get the quality of service that we do.

Yes, and instead of silly talk like "cut pay by 25%", we should be talking about eliminating these barriers to increased flexibility.

I am for unions fighting for pay and conditions, but I don't like resistance to change.

I would instead say the following:

to staff in a HSE unit: reduce barriers, change work practices, then you will get your pay restoration.

Geuze · 15-05-2020 10:02am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I've no beef with the public service but never understood why people say "the public service pays tax too!". They don't, they get given money from the exchequer and then give some of it back, which I always found pointless. Why not just pay them a net amount?

Given that no country has ever done this, I wonder are you correct or incorrect?

blanch152 · 15-05-2020 10:03am

Geuze wrote: »

Comparing crude PS pay with private sector pay is not appropriate, for many reasons, as you say.

After the adjustments have been made, the PS pay premium that did exist, has been reduced.

For men, it is practically zero.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/rp/rp-eappp/eappp20152018/

When comparing the public and private sector over the period 2015-2018, the pay differential for male employees in the public sector ranged from a premium of 1.0% to a discount of -10.8% depending on the specification used.

The corresponding differential for females showed that female workers in the public sector had a differential ranging from 3.3% to 15.8% depending on the model applied when compared to their counterparts in the private sector.

Note: lower paid PS tend to earn more, relative to the private sector.

For higher paid males, it is negative. You are better off in the private sector.

I suspect that that reflects rampant gender pay discrimination in the private sector as opposed to underpayment in the public sector, but I could be wrong.

Geuze · 15-05-2020 10:04am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Are ministers linked to CS wages? I know the Ministers and PM in New Zealand all took 25% cut. Would be nice to see our lot do the same in solidarity.

A fair point.

Ministers get a TD salary, same as any TD, and subject to the same changes as any PS.

Ministers then get a ministerial allowance.

Public service pay cut?

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