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More landlords to sell up over taxes and cost of letting property

24

Comments

  • #52
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,618 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Even here in Cavan far from the pressures if the Dublin market the drop in rental numbers is obvious.
    Many landlords have gotten out and the properties have moved. Into private ownership.
    Locally to me there families just can't get properties to rent and it is driving up rent levels.

    But even with increased rent levels landlords are not adding additional properties to their books.

    If rental was again allowed to be a profitable business then there would again be investor purchases, more properties on the market would ease rent pressures.


  • #53
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    khamilto wrote: »
    Would you agree that losses are booked before they are realized, e.g. depreciation?

    Depreciation is not the same thing as a loss. Depreciation is recognising the decline in value of an asset as it is "used up" in whatever way is applicable. For example, in rental accommodation, furniture is depreciated at 1/8th of the purchase cost per annum, recognising that it's reasonable to expect to replace a three piece suite every eight years through normal wear and tear. Or cars lose value as they gets older and their mileage increases.

    Not all assets are depreciating - gold, for example. It may go up or down in value, but it doesn't depreciate in the above sense.


  • #54
    gaius c
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    outsidein98 wrote: »
    You can argue it any way like, score points and win the sophistry game all you like but in reality like most accidental landlords my wife and I lose money on the house we rent out. Like most people in the same boat we'll sell up as soon as the sale price can pay off the remaining mortgage. We will never make a profit. Yet we're hit at the highest rate of tax for the rental income. That's partly why there's a shortage of private rental property. Now the government is trying to make it harder for people like us.
    That's the reality we face.

    It doesn't really tally with the rest of your post at all. You're not doing great out of your purchase, which is unfortunate for you but your property is available to rent and when you sell it, somebody else will buy it and live in it.

    The more former rentals that are for sale, the more people that will be able to exit the rental market and buy their own house.


  • #55
    gaius c
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    _Brian wrote: »
    Even here in Cavan far from the pressures if the Dublin market the drop in rental numbers is obvious.
    Many landlords have gotten out and the properties have moved. Into private ownership.
    Locally to me there families just can't get properties to rent and it is driving up rent levels.

    But even with increased rent levels landlords are not adding additional properties to their books.

    If rental was again allowed to be a profitable business then there would again be investor purchases, more properties on the market would ease rent pressures.

    And house prices would go up as home buyers have to compete with more investors armed with tax advantages for limited stock.


  • #56
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Magnolia Enough Typographer wrote: »
    I don't think the term making a profit is open to interpretation. It's a pretty straight forward concept.

    If after paying the mortgage and all other costs associated with the rental property including tax on the rent and he has made money then he is making a profit.

    A LL should really only be paying tax on the actual profit if there is any. So rent minus 100% of the yearly mortgage (interest and capital) along with all other expenses.
    As others have pointed out, the mortgage principal is not a cost of doing business. You're just transferring your own money from one account to another account. So instead of having €500 pm in your current or savings account, you are reducing the debt on your mortgage by €500pm and increasing your equity in the property by €500pm. Why should the taxpayer subsidise this transfer of funds?
    outsidein98 wrote: »
    You can argue it any way like, score points and win the sophistry game all you like but in reality like most accidental landlords my wife and I lose money on the house we rent out. Like most people in the same boat we'll sell up as soon as the sale price can pay off the remaining mortgage. We will never make a profit. Yet we're hit at the highest rate of tax for the rental income. That's partly why there's a shortage of private rental property. Now the government is trying to make it harder for people like us.
    That's the reality we face.
    If you sell, someone will buy - either to live in it or to rent it out. The property doesn't fall off the face of the earth when you sell.
    _Brian wrote: »
    Even here in Cavan far from the pressures if the Dublin market the drop in rental numbers is obvious.
    Many landlords have gotten out and the properties have moved. Into private ownership.
    Locally to me there families just can't get properties to rent and it is driving up rent levels.

    But even with increased rent levels landlords are not adding additional properties to their books.

    If rental was again allowed to be a profitable business then there would again be investor purchases, more properties on the market would ease rent pressures.
    And the increased investor purchases would push up the prices for ordinary families trying to buy a house to live in.


  • #57
    gaius c
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    earlytobed wrote: »
    I am selling my BTL next year. Yahoo!!
    Bought in 2004
    Rent doesn't come near the Mortgage payment.
    Would have been better off putting the cash I put into it over the years in the credit union... Not looking for sympathy, investments can go either way.
    No more tax returns, poor mouth tenants, LPT, PRTB.
    Happy days:)

    Good luck with it. Sometimes knowing when to cut your losses is the hardest decision of all.


  • #58
    khamilto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭khamilto


    gizmo555 wrote: »
    Depreciation is not the same thing as a loss. Depreciation is recognising the decline in value of an asset as it is "used up" in whatever way is applicable. For example, in rental accommodation, furniture is depreciated at 1/8th of the purchase cost per annum, recognising that it's reasonable to expect to replace a three piece suite every eight years through normal wear and tear. Or cars lose value as they gets older and their mileage increases.

    Not all assets are depreciating - gold, for example. It may go up or down in value, but it doesn't depreciate in the above sense.

    There would be no need to book depreciation unless a loss is eventually expected - hence why we have depreciation recapture as outlined in s288 of the 1997 Taxes Consolidation Act.


    I'm not sure why you stated "not all assets are depreciating" when we are talking about the tax treatment of an appreciating asset. That would be a given. Indeed, your entire post seems to be an oxymoron.


  • #59
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    gaius c wrote: »
    Good luck with it. Sometimes knowing when to cut your losses is the hardest decision of all.

    He'll need luck. Thanks to the latest measures if the house doesn't sell he could be fined for trying.:mad:


  • #60
    rossmores
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭rossmores


    without doing sums the high tax and extra regs are driving LLs out i am not referring to the article as I am in the business i know and I am reducing my supply not sure if I will sell or change to short time lets
    there is no more extra supply coming on stream and if there was what investor would want them but their are more renters/buyers coming into the market all the time making that pool of available properties even less


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  • #61
    mickoneill31
    Registered Users Posts: 855 ✭✭✭mickoneill31


    RainyDay wrote: »
    If you sell, someone will buy - either to live in it or to rent it out. The property doesn't fall off the face of the earth when you sell.

    Are there any statistics as to how many houses are being bought to be rented out? I'd guess that the percentage is small but that's not based on anything. Is this info collected by any agency?


  • #62
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #63
    DublinDilbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭DublinDilbert


    mickoneill31 wrote: »
    Are there any statistics as to how many houses are being bought to be rented out? I'd guess that the percentage is small but that's not based on anything. Is this info collected by any agency?

    They are quoting 18% of what's sold is going back to be rented out again.


  • #64
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    draiochtanois wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Are you sure?
    http://www.broadsheet.ie/2015/11/16/airbnb-and-the-revenue/
    draiochtanois wrote: »
    and better profitability.
    Are you sure? Short-term letting is a very, very different market - will the customers be there?


  • #65
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    borderlinemeath wrote: »
    He'll need luck. Thanks to the latest measures if the house doesn't sell he could be fined for trying.:mad:

    So True. Screwed every way


  • #66
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    DublinDilbert wrote: »
    They are quoting 18% of what's sold is going back to be rented out again.

    Thats 18% of BTL properties been sold are bought by btl investors


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  • #67
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #68
    khamilto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭khamilto


    How is tax treatment via airbnb lets any different?


  • #69
    vandriver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,467 ✭✭✭vandriver


    outsidein98 wrote: »
    You can argue it any way like, score points and win the sophistry game all you like but in reality like most accidental landlords my wife and I lose money on the house we rent out. Like most people in the same boat we'll sell up as soon as the sale price can pay off the remaining mortgage. We will never make a profit. Yet we're hit at the highest rate of tax for the rental income. That's partly why there's a shortage of private rental property. Now the government is trying to make it harder for people like us.
    That's the reality we face.

    You never achieved a rent higher than the interest and costs?


  • #70
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    khamilto wrote: »
    How is tax treatment via airbnb lets any different?

    Not necessarily taxation but not having to deal with the PRTB quango and abide by the RTA when it comes to the eviction of trouble tenants is worth more than any tax break.


  • #71
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    in my view , as a former renter, private rentals should be leased like commercial buildings , with a defined period, an agreed rent review and arbitration and relevant break periods. The tenant once he or she abides by the terms cannot be ejected unless by mutual agreement and that includes sale of the property

    fixing the rent for two years does nothing


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  • #72
    khamilto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭khamilto


    borderlinemeath wrote: »
    Not necessarily taxation but not having to deal with the PRTB quango and abide by the RTA when it comes to the eviction of trouble tenants is worth more than any tax break.

    You do understand that short term lets via airbnb (or otherwise) has a whole host of different costs, problems and drawbacks?

    If it were so easy, more people would be doing it already.


  • #73
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    khamilto wrote: »
    You do understand that short term lets via airbnb (or otherwise) has a whole host of different costs, problems and drawbacks?

    If it were so easy, more people would be doing it already.

    I'm not considering letting via airbnb, I haven't got the time to dedicate to it. I was simply replying to another posters query.


  • #74
    khamilto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭khamilto


    borderlinemeath wrote: »
    I'm not considering letting via airbnb, I haven't got the time to dedicate to it. I was simply replying to another posters query.

    And I was just asking for an explanation of your reply.

    Sorry I guess?


  • #75
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    khamilto wrote: »
    And I was just asking for an explanation of your reply.

    Sorry?

    You didn't ask for an explanation whatsoever. You stated your opinion in a fairly patronising manner.


  • #76
    khamilto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭khamilto


    borderlinemeath wrote: »
    You didn't ask for an explanation whatsoever. You stated your opinion in a fairly patronising manner.
    I made a statement leading to an expected explanation of how your original statement was correct, given that it presumably included these factors.

    If you felt patronised, that's on you and the quality of your posts - not on me.

    Sorry champ.


  • #77
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note Calm down folks. Please stay civil and don't get into tit for tat arguments with other posters. Thanks


  • #78
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    khamilto wrote: »
    You do understand that short term lets via airbnb (or otherwise) has a whole host of different costs, problems and drawbacks?

    If it were so easy, more people would be doing it already.

    more people are doing it, I have two friends who never rented in their life and now offer Airbnb, its a great way to earn small amounts of cash, The revenue reporting requirements are trivial and can be completed annually online in a few minutes


  • #79
    khamilto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭khamilto


    BoatMad wrote: »
    more people are doing it, I have two friends who never rented in their life and now offer Airbnb, its a great way to earn small amounts of cash, The revenue reporting requirements are trivial and can be completed annually online in a few minutes

    You're kind of missing the point. The claim was that landlords should swap over to successive short term lets via airbnb rather than having traditional tenancies.


  • #80
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    khamilto wrote: »
    You're kind of missing the point. The claim was that landlords should swap over to successive short term lets via airbnb rather than having traditional tenancies.

    thats not going to happen, nor does it need airbnb for that to happen. a simple modification to legislation could easily correct any such " outbreak" by simply defining the nature of tenancy


  • #81
    khamilto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭khamilto


    I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but tenancy is already defined.


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  • #82
    BoatMad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    khamilto wrote: »
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but tenancy is already defined.

    That if there was a serious attempt to use airbnb, to circumvent conventional rules on renting, a simple set of definitions in law would prohibit that


  • #83
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    BoatMad wrote: »
    That if there was a serious attempt to use airbnb, to circumvent conventional rules on renting, a simple set of definitions in law would prohibit that

    Airbnb is effectively a hotel type arrangement. The essence is short term. It would not be possible to disguise a standard letting as an Airbnb arrangement as the PRTB can inquire into the true nature of any agreement. It is in breach of planning legislation to let a house in this manner if the houses previous planning status was residential.


  • #84
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    gaius c wrote: »
    A house suitable for a family of 4 houses 20???

    Have you any more makey uppy anecdotes that actually weaken the argument you are trying to make?
    20 is wrong but a 4 bed house could easily house 8, 4 couples. Point stands.


  • #85
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    http://www.daft.ie/report

    the daft report today is showing that for most areas its not worth it for investors to buy at the moment as the rent and mortgages pays are not in a favorable position to make a return


  • #86
    April 73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    Heard from a local EA yesterday that the cheapest three bed house to rent in my local area is €1400 per month and it's the only property with three beds available at the moment.

    You could buy that house with a mortgage over 20 years for a similiar sum. Renters paying €1400 a month find it difficult to save the deposit now required to buy & are stuck renting in a dwindling rental market.

    Alan Kelly's rent control chatter has only caused a spike in rental prices - as many non-economists on forums predicted.

    Lack of capital appreciation, onerous taxes & interference are encouraging landlords to leave the market.

    New supply is in the doldrums & will be for several years to come. A new planned development in my area has been objected to by local residents despite a much-needed new road being part of the plans. If the developer gets permission houses are 1-2 years away from being occupied.


    It's a perfect storm. And the forecast isn't changing in the short to medium term.


  • #87
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    April 73 wrote: »
    Heard from a local EA yesterday that the cheapest three bed house to rent in my local area is €1400 per month and it's the only property with three beds available at the moment.

    You could buy that house with a mortgage over 20 years for a similiar sum. Renters paying €1400 a month find it difficult to save the deposit now required to buy & are stuck renting in a dwindling rental market.

    Alan Kelly's rent control chatter has only caused a spike in rental prices - as many non-economists on forums predicted.

    Lack of capital appreciation, onerous taxes & interference are encouraging landlords to leave the market.

    New supply is in the doldrums & will be for several years to come. A new planned development in my area has been objected to by local residents despite a much-needed new road being part of the plans. If the developer gets permission houses are 1-2 years away from being occupied.


    It's a perfect storm. And the forecast isn't changing in the short to medium term.


    Dont Forget there are alot of renters wheather or not they could afford it have no interest in buying


  • #88
    gizmo555
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,948 ✭✭✭gizmo555


    April 73 wrote: »
    Alan Kelly's rent control chatter has only caused a spike in rental prices - as many non-economists on forums predicted.

    Lack of capital appreciation, onerous taxes & interference are encouraging landlords to leave the market.

    What you say is exactly what today's Q3 2015 Daft Report on rentals says:
    Unfortunately, it [the Minister's intervention] does nothing to address those already homeless or indeed to address the underlying problem in the market, which is not a prices problem, rather it is a quantities one. There are simply not enough properties in the rental market to meet the demand Irish households have.


  • #89
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    murphaph wrote: »
    20 is wrong but a 4 bed house could easily house 8, 4 couples. Point stands.

    Most 4-beds include 2 box rooms, which are definitely NOT designed to accomodate 2 adults - 2 kids in bunk beds maybe, but not 2 adults.
    handlemaster wrote: »
    http://www.daft.ie/report

    the daft report today is showing that for most areas its not worth it for investors to buy at the moment as the rent and mortgages pays are not in a favorable position to make a return

    What is their definition of 'not worth it to buy'? Do they mean 'can't get someone else to pay for my asset for me', which seems to be the usual definition when it comes to landlords?


  • #90
    gaius c
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭gaius c


    handlemaster wrote: »
    http://www.daft.ie/report

    the daft report today is showing that for most areas its not worth it for investors to buy at the moment as the prices are such that it's not a favorable position to make a return

    FYP

    The problem is high prices and poor yields despite record rents. The fiddling with allowable expenses suggested by various VI's here will only push prices further and depress yields.


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  • #91
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #92
    April 73
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 846 ✭✭✭April 73


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Dont Forget there are alot of renters wheather or not they could afford it have no interest in buying

    True. There has to be a rental market for people who aren't intetested in the commitment of a mortgage or home ownership.


  • #93
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Most 4-beds include 2 box rooms, which are definitely NOT designed to accomodate 2 adults - 2 kids in bunk beds maybe, but not 2 adults.



    What is their definition of 'not worth it to buy'? Do they mean 'can't get someone else to pay for my asset for me', which seems to be the usual definition when it comes to landlords?



    It means it would cost the investor money every month to service the debt plus expenses on top. Its a very populist view at the moment to say the tenant is paying for the asset etc. Do you go into a shop keeper and say im not buying these apples because with that money your paying off your loan for the shop ?


  • #94
    draiochtanois
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,655 ✭✭✭draiochtanois


    This post has been deleted.


  • #95
    Blured
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭Blured


    Magnolia Enough Typographer wrote: »
    We built a new shed on the farm, we write off a considerable amount of the cost of building it every year against a combination of farm income and off-farm PAYE income. Over a number of years it will cost a fraction of the initial outlay due to the tax being written off, VAT we are allowed to reclaim on buildings (even when not VAT registered) etc.

    From a landlords point of view, they can claim some capital expenditure against tax, just not the capital outlay for the mortgage. They can write off the capital expenditure for fitting the rental property over 8 years


  • #96
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Most 4-beds include 2 box rooms, which are definitely NOT designed to accomodate 2 adults - 2 kids in bunk beds maybe, but not 2 adults.



    What is their definition of 'not worth it to buy'? Do they mean 'can't get someone else to pay for my asset for me', which seems to be the usual definition when it comes to landlords?


    Off you go and save 20% deposit for a house. Even to buy a cheap* house at €150K you're looking at investing at least 40K of your own capital between deposit, fees and furnishings. That's if it doesn't need refurbishing.

    *I'm well aware that property can be purchased at under €150k, but an investor will want to buy in an area that's near a city/big town or has good transport links to them.


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  • #97
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    borderlinemeath wrote: »
    Off you go and save 20% deposit for a house. Even to buy a cheap* house at €150K you're looking at investing at least 40K of your own capital between deposit, fees and furnishings. That's if it doesn't need refurbishing.

    *I'm well aware that property can be purchased at under €150k, but an investor will want to buy in an area that's near a city/big town or has good transport links to them.


    30% deposit for investors. But investors are lucky they have magic money trees they shake and it appears


  • #98
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    handlemaster wrote: »
    It means it would cost the investor money every month to service the debt plus expenses on top. Its a very populist view at the moment to say the tenant is paying for the asset etc. Do you go into a shop keeper and say im not buying these apples because with that money your paying off your loan for the shop ?

    And when you say 'service the debt', are you including capital repayments (which increase the equity in the property) or just interest?


  • #99
    handlemaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭handlemaster


    RainyDay wrote: »
    And when you say 'service the debt', are you including capital repayments (which increase the equity in the property) or just interest?

    Final word is its not an investment proposition for an investor. It will all end in higher rents next year and the year after.... trying to create an argument on what you think an investor should or shouldnt view as exceptable is pointless. Investors arent buying by the reports that are out.


  • #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    handlemaster wrote: »
    Dont Forget there are alot of renters wheather or not they could afford it have no interest in buying

    In fairness that number would be fairly low (certainly among Irish people). The majority would intend to buy at some stage, I don't think I know anyone who doesn't intend to buy at some point, I know many who didn't even move out of home until they bought as renting was seen as a waste.
    RainyDay wrote: »

    What is their definition of 'not worth it to buy'? Do they mean 'can't get someone else to pay for my asset for me', which seems to be the usual definition when it comes to landlords?

    Well isn't the the point of buying to let, covering the cost of buying it is surely the minimum and the intention would be to make money on top of that.

    What's wrong with expecting a rented property to pay for itself? If I were to buy somewhere to let the minimum I would expect was for the rent to cover the mortgage (after tax).


  • #101
    _Brian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,618 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    There is a serious begrudgement in many aspects of society against a Landlord making a profit on rented property. That's how we ended in the current position.
    The expectation that the landlord should wait until the mortgage is paid in 20-30 years for their return is just bizzare.

    People peddling this notion are entitled to their opinion and while this remains the case fewer properties are available to rent, rents will increase and essentially more people cannot afford same rents.

    Some just have a chip in their shoulders against landlords but all modern societies need a functioning rental market - when landlords cannot make actual profit there will be a severely reduced rental market and tenants should expect to pay more on the back of this.

    It's the old saying "be careful what you wish for - it Might come true"


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