New Worldwide Handicap System

dan_ep82 · 13-07-2020 9:47pm

Golf is my Game wrote: »

Thats really only an :eek: because you are thinking of the 21 in old money. Its comparing apples and oranges and people just dont have a feel for the WGS yet so keep thinking of it in the system they know and rember that the slope rating applies to everyone. Its just a number and it whats it relative to all the other numbers in the competition that matters not the value itself.

I mainly play comps to get a reduction in my handicap, to push myself under a bit of pressure. Winning a comp is great but it's far from what I play golf for.

Whats a standard course if Headfort new is 5 shots harder?

My previous club, Ardee ,I would consider very scoreable has max CSS's of 38 and I get 3 shots there under the new system.

CalamariFritti · 13-07-2020 10:17pm

mighty magpie wrote: »

How so? I've no idea what's going on here and it seems many others in same boat

This would make much more sense.

Par - 71
Course Rating - 70.9
Bogey Rating - 93.4
Slope - 121

Your course is a par 71. By a scratch golfer it is being played a fraction under its par. But for a bogey golfer it is tougher (93.4). Hence the higher than neutral slope of 113.

The formula is:

Slope = (Bogey Rating - Course Rating) * 5.381

(5.381 is for men, its 4.24 or so for women)

slingerz · 13-07-2020 10:28pm

It would be great if the GUI published guidance on how handicaps and competitions would work here going forward.

Seve OB · 13-07-2020 10:40pm

I just went on to the WHS site there. One would imagine there would be a very clear and obvious link as to how to calculate a handicap.

Here is a link you might find interesting, it’s the UAE who have adopted the WHS a few months ago now.

https://egfgolf.com/handicap/

Golf is my Game · 13-07-2020 10:46pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I mainly play comps to get a reduction in my handicap, to push myself under a bit of pressure. Winning a comp is great but it's far from what I play golf for.

Whats a standard course if Headfort new is 5 shots harder?

My previous club, Ardee ,I would consider very scoreable has max CSS's of 38 and I get 3 shots there under the new system.

Played Ardee and would have thought it a right in the middle, 113, course. Not long, no great difficult holes, and a fair few in the front nine you can get away with fairway hopping both left and right. Liked the sweeping left dog leg 16th or 17th into a valley.

CalamariFritti · 13-07-2020 11:07pm

slingerz wrote: »

It would be great if the GUI published guidance on how handicaps and competitions would work here going forward.

I try to summarise it like I understand it in a nutshell.

As it is today for handicapping purposes every result gets transferred into an adjusted gross score. Adjusted as in no score is higher than net double bogey.

Your adjusted gross score on the day then gets converted into what they call the handicap differential.

Handicap Differential = ( Adjusted Gross - Course Rating ) * 113 / Slope

That is your result on the day for handicapping purposes. You could call it an adjusted over par result.

So now imagine a list of your last 20 results (handicap differentials) from which you take the best 8 and do a simple average of those 8. Thats now your handicap (index).

I have no experience with it but I imagine there are interesting possibilities. You could shoot 38 points and see your handicap actually going up. Cos your 38 points could push a 40 points result out of the last 20 window.

Also I guess sine there are no 0.1 increases or .3 or .2 decreases there really is no need for categories anymore. It's going to be different.

***

What I don't quite understand yet is the following, maybe someone can jump in and fill the gaps.

So now you have your handicap index - your new handicap. Which is not your playing handicap. Depending on the course (slope?) you get extra shots on the day/course. Could be as many as three for higher handicaps I believe.

Don't understand the significance of those when all that matters is an adjusted gross. I guess thats for stableford only? But how do you arrive at an adjusted gross score from such a stableford score based on an adjusted playing handicap?

Plus if you get extra shots based on slope and slope also becomes a factor in the result calculation doesn't slope go into it twice?

One thing is for sure. It may be more accurate but it is certainly a lot more complicated. Lads will be struggling to self apply the correct handicap index from one comp to the next if the system isn't updated yet.

prawnsambo · 14-07-2020 10:18am

CalamariFritti wrote: »

What I don't quite understand yet is the following, maybe someone can jump in and fill the gaps.

So now you have your handicap index - your new handicap. Which is not your playing handicap. Depending on the course (slope?) you get extra shots on the day/course. Could be as many as three for higher handicaps I believe.

Don't understand the significance of those when all that matters is an adjusted gross. I guess thats for stableford only? But how do you arrive at an adjusted gross score from such a stableford score based on an adjusted playing handicap?

Plus if you get extra shots based on slope and slope also becomes a factor in the result calculation doesn't slope go into it twice?

Adjusted gross score comes out after you've played a competition and gives you a new handicap index. Slope rating is in twice because you need to 'de-slope' the score in order to calculate the new handicap index.

CalamariFritti wrote: »

One thing is for sure. It may be more accurate but it is certainly a lot more complicated. Lads will be struggling to self apply the correct handicap index from one comp to the next if the system isn't updated yet.

I believe that all this will be done through GolfNet as the primary repository of handicap indices. So whatever is recorded there will be the basis for the next competition you play. All clubs will have tables for players to see what their course handicap will be for that course.

Golfgraffix · 14-07-2020 10:41am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I believe that all this will be done through GolfNet as the primary repository of handicap indices. So whatever is recorded there will be the basis for the next competition you play. All clubs will have tables for players to see what their course handicap will be for that course.

My worry will be getting all your data in one place. None of the main information will be accessable through the old formats like Howdidido or Masterscorebaord, the only location for your history will be the new GolfNet.

I can understand the monetary reason for holding all the data but Irish golfers are creatures of habit, it will be a big shock come November.

J

prawnsambo · 14-07-2020 10:51am

Golfgraffix wrote: »

My worry will be getting all your data in one place. None of the main information will be accessable through the old formats like Howdidido or Masterscorebaord, the only location for your history will be the new GolfNet.

I can understand the monetary reason for holding all the data but Irish golfers are creatures of habit, it will be a big shock come November.

J

Yeah. And I've seen some strange anomalies on GolfNet as it is. A visitor was DQ from an open because they didn't have the (c) handicap according to GolfNet when our HS looked him up. Visitor provided a screengrab from GolfNet showing that he had. Now maybe he'd done a bit of post-grab digital work, but that would be a very dangerous road to go down.

blue note · 14-07-2020 10:51am

I can't wait to see the course difficulty ratings. I expect the majority of people will consider their course much harder than the rating. Or maybe, we'll all look at the ratings off the back tees and consider that the rating of what they are playing. Whereas in reality they're not playing off those tees.

I could be wrong of course and the ratings might come out and people will hardly look at them.

I expect my course (corballis) to be rated as very easy, mainly because it's so short. And I think that it is relatively easy for a lot of people. For me though, it's the very opposite. I can play not great on a parkland and play roughly to my handicap. Or I can play pretty well on my home course and be 10 shots off it.

I'm wondering will I have a huge handicap for opens as a result of this.

prawnsambo · 14-07-2020 10:58am

blue note wrote: »

I'm wondering will I have a huge handicap for opens as a result of this.

I wouldn't get too excited about that possibility

Obviously depends on what your handicap is, but the max SR is 155, so if your club is neutral at 113, the multiplier would be 1.37. Which means that if your Handicap Index is 10, your home handicap would be 10 (approx) and your away handicap at a 155 SR course would be 14. At 20 you'd be off 28. But you're looking at a much, much harder course. Think of The European off the back tees level of difficulty.

blue note · 14-07-2020 11:46am

prawnsambo wrote: »

I wouldn't get too excited about that possibility

Obviously depends on what your handicap is, but the max SR is 155, so if your club is neutral at 113, the multiplier would be 1.37. Which means that if your Handicap Index is 10, your home handicap would be 10 (approx) and your away handicap at a 155 SR course would be 14. At 20 you'd be off 28. But you're looking at a much, much harder course. Think of The European off the back tees level of difficulty.

Ah huge is an exaggeration. But I wouldn't be shocked if I get two shots back on some courses. And my points on parkland this year have been 38, 36, 33, 28, 19 (9 holes). Whereas I haven't broken 30 points in my last 10 rounds in corballis. All those rounds were off about 14.

So I'm just wondering if a combination of my handicap going up from playing corballis, plus a shot or two from the course ranking will help me greatly on a decent parkland.

Of course I could get a handle on corballis and screw that up.

IAmTitleist · 14-07-2020 12:14pm

Can see this taking out a lot of my enjoyment for the game to be honest.

There is no better feeling walking off the couse having battled to make buffer and avoid a 0.1 increase.

That doesn't appear to be a likely scenario from next year?!

GreeBo · 14-07-2020 12:21pm

IAmTitleist wrote: »

Can see this taking out a lot of my enjoyment for the game to be honest.

There is no better feeling walking off the couse having battled to make buffer and avoid a 0.1 increase.

That doesn't appear to be a likely scenario from next year?!

I suppose, depending on into it you are, you will know what score is dropping off your 8/20 so will know what you need to beat/equal to keep your handicap?

Wont be as easy to know, especially playing on different courses but assuming the tools are in place and work well, should be possible.

prawnsambo · 14-07-2020 12:25pm

IAmTitleist wrote: »

Can see this taking out a lot of my enjoyment for the game to be honest.

There is no better feeling walking off the couse having battled to make buffer and avoid a 0.1 increase.

That doesn't appear to be a likely scenario from next year?!

No buffer any more. Your handicap index will be based on your best eight of your last twenty cards. It will likely change with every round you play. New system, new challenges to beat.

Seve OB · 14-07-2020 12:42pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

No buffer any more. Your handicap index will be based on your best eight of your last twenty cards. It will likely change with every round you play. New system, new challenges to beat.

from chatting with people who use similar systems over the years, they don't tend to change that much.

hurleronditch · 14-07-2020 12:53pm

Seve OB wrote: »

from chatting with people who use similar systems over the years, they don't tend to change that much.

If you’re a consistent golfer it is fairly benign alright, but at times you can see big jumps. It’s usually if you have a very good or a very bad round currently as one of your top 8 but approaching the back end of your 20 scores. It’s usually you have a very good round about to time out, and if you don’t shoot something low-ish it’ll get replaced by a higher number, and never mind your .1 back, you could get a whole shot back just by having a sh*te morning on your Sunday stableford.

Golf is my Game · 14-07-2020 1:04pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

If you’re a consistent golfer it is fairly benign alright, but at times you can see big jumps. It’s usually if you have a very good or a very bad round currently as one of your top 8 but approaching the back end of your 20 scores. It’s usually you have a very good round about to time out, and if you don’t shoot something low-ish it’ll get replaced by a higher number, and never mind your .1 back, you could get a whole shot back just by having a sh*te morning on your Sunday stableford.

Which is the same as being on something point four really. Or sort of.

GreeBo · 14-07-2020 1:19pm

hurleronditch wrote: »

If you’re a consistent golfer it is fairly benign alright, but at times you can see big jumps. It’s usually if you have a very good or a very bad round currently as one of your top 8 but approaching the back end of your 20 scores. It’s usually you have a very good round about to time out, and if you don’t shoot something low-ish it’ll get replaced by a higher number, and never mind your .1 back, you could get a whole shot back just by having a sh*te morning on your Sunday stableford.

well it means that you havent been able to replicate that performance, so really your handicap should increase, rather than struggle along for 10 weeks until you get 10 x 0.1s

searay · 14-07-2020 1:29pm

There is an individual in our club who is capable of playing off 5/6 but his handicap has been kept to 10/11 from the best efforts of the handicap committee to strictly enforce the number of .1s etc. He wins very regularly in non-qualifying competitions and is very hard to beat in Matchplay etc. I'd say the other 3 guys in his regular fourball are of a similar mindset but probably don't have his ability.

There are guys like them in many clubs who don't believe in the concept of getting to the lowest handicap you can and try to stay at that level.

I think these guys will use the new system to their benefit and will quite happily return bad scores for 20 rounds to set themselves up for a win.

The Amateur results from the AT&T pro-am in the US indicate that this goes on in the US.

GreeBo · 14-07-2020 1:34pm

searay wrote: »

There is an individual in our club who is capable of playing off 5/6 but his handicap has been kept to 10/11 from the best efforts of the handicap committee to strictly enforce the number of .1s etc. He wins very regularly in non-qualifying competitions and is very hard to beat in Matchplay etc. I'd say the other 3 guys in his regular fourball are of a similar mindset but probably don't have his ability.

There are guys like them in many clubs who don't believe in the concept of getting to the lowest handicap you can and try to stay at that level.

I think these guys will use the new system to their benefit and will quite happily return bad scores for 20 rounds to set themselves up for a win.

The Amateur results from the AT&T pro-am in the US indicate that this goes on in the US.

I reckon it would be pretty hard work and not worth the effort for maybe 2 wins a year?

prawnsambo · 14-07-2020 4:31pm

Seve OB wrote: »

from chatting with people who use similar systems over the years, they don't tend to change that much.

Just as a matter of interest, is that a place where playing at other clubs as prevalent as it is here? I have a feeling that this is what could make things a lot more interesting when the WHS comes in.

prawnsambo · 14-07-2020 4:33pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I reckon it would be pretty hard work and not worth the effort for maybe 2 wins a year?

This. Just with the amount of opens that we play here and the difficulty of 'gaming' the system with so many variables would make it pretty hard work. Time will tell I suppose.

Seve OB · 14-07-2020 4:42pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, is that a place where playing at other clubs as prevalent as it is here? I have a feeling that this is what could make things a lot more interesting when the WHS comes in.

a bit, not a lot

and i know they would never report scores when abroad.

i would assume that scores from anywhere in the world should count now (well when we are signed up).

it would be nice if CONGU or the GUI would actually tell us a it about the actual systems and procedures which lie ahead of us.

14-07-2020 5:52pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I reckon it would be pretty hard work and not worth the effort for maybe 2 wins a year?

It will do significant damage to captains prize. People can get themselves ready and increase their handicap by between 3 and 5 shots.

Seve OB · 14-07-2020 6:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

It will do significant damage to captains prize. People can get themselves ready and increase their handicap by between 3 and 5 shots.

Good to know. So I’ll be off 12 for this years captains.
I surely won’t be beaten in 2022 when I’m off 22, but I might keep building for a couple more years just to be sure

searay · 14-07-2020 11:11pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I reckon it would be pretty hard work and not worth the effort for maybe 2 wins a year?

The mindset involved is alien to me but given a handicap is calculated from the best 8 of the last 20 games played, A player just needs to make sure you follow up 2/3 good rounds by a number of mediocre Rounds to push the good ones out of the top 20.

This guy (Larry Fitzgerald)’s performances at the at&t has caught golf digest’s attention.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/larry-fitzgerald-and-his-controversial-handicap-once-again-leads-at-pebble-beach

Golf is my Game · 14-07-2020 11:40pm

searay wrote: »

The mindset involved is alien to me but given a handicap is calculated from the best 8 of the last 20 games played, A player just needs to make sure you follow up 2/3 good rounds by a number of mediocre Rounds to push the good ones out of the top 20.

This guy (Larry Fitzgerald)’s performances at the at&t has caught golf digest’s attention.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/larry-fitzgerald-and-his-controversial-handicap-once-again-leads-at-pebble-beach

Yes, but that number of mediocre rounds being 17 or 18 of them is a fair dull trudge now if you ask me. There's many who would play that many in a year or even two.

GreeBo · 15-07-2020 10:47am

searay wrote: »

The mindset involved is alien to me but given a handicap is calculated from the best 8 of the last 20 games played, A player just needs to make sure you follow up 2/3 good rounds by a number of mediocre Rounds to push the good ones out of the top 20.

This guy (Larry Fitzgerald)’s performances at the at&t has caught golf digest’s attention.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/larry-fitzgerald-and-his-controversial-handicap-once-again-leads-at-pebble-beach

How many competitive, singles, counting rounds are you playing a year?

I play pretty much every week and am lucky to get 20.

searay · 15-07-2020 12:23pm

GreeBo wrote: »

How many competitive, singles, counting rounds are you playing a year?

I play pretty much every week and am lucky to get 20.

I wouldn't get much more in than that and 2020 will be a lot less due to Covid. My aim is to beat my handicap on every round and when thinks start to go wrong during the round it's to at least get into the bufferzone. If I miss the bufferzone by 1 shot or 20 shots, I'll get 0.1 back.

I'm aware of guys who'll pay 2/3 open singles a week during the summer in addition to the weekly singles and could get 60 plus counting rounds in.

As I understand it, under the US system, if a round goes wrong, you can effectively get more than 0.1 back per round by clocking up a worse score so it has a bigger impact on your average.

I heard of a US based 8 handicaper going to 15 within 6 months and then he "re-discovered" his form and got back to shooting below 80 regularly. That shouldn't happen under our current system.

There are advantages to the new system in that it will stop players having artificially low handicaps to qualify for scratch cups etc, but I prefer our current system.

New Worldwide Handicap System

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