Rugby World Cup Final 2019 Eng vs S Africa

Clegg · 03-11-2019 2:24pm

I've seen some criticism of England for their conduct at the medal presentation. Personally, I don't think their players taking off their runners up medals, or in some cases refusing to have them put around their neck, is in any way disrespectful to the winners or the tournament itself. A lot of these guys, Itoje, Vunipola etc are hugely competitive and it's been drilled into them to win. Anything less isn't acceptable.

It's all about psychology afaik. Don't allow yourself to get comfortable with the loss. Pretty sure half of Leinsters players took off their Champions Cup runners up medals as soon as they got them.

TheCitizen · 03-11-2019 4:04pm

Clegg wrote: »

I've seen some criticism of England for their conduct at the medal presentation. Personally, I don't think their players taking off their runners up medals, or in some cases refusing to have them put around their neck, is in any way disrespectful to the winners or the tournament itself. A lot of these guys, Itoje, Vunipola etc are hugely competitive and it's been drilled into them to win. Anything less isn't acceptable.

It's all about psychology afaik. Don't allow yourself to get comfortable with the loss. Pretty sure half of Leinsters players took off their Champions Cup runners up medals as soon as they got them.

Pretty sure? Did they or not, pretty sure is neither here nor there.

England routinely are bad losers and even worse winners, at least we were spared that. Thanks South Africa.

RugbyLover123 · 03-11-2019 4:30pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Pretty sure? Did they or not, pretty sure is neither here nor there.

England routinely are bad losers and even worse winners, at least we were spared that. Thanks South Africa.

Ah stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. They’re perfectly entitled to do what they want with the medal. They just lost a WC final, if they don’t want to put on them that’s completely fine and I can see where they are coming from.

And I’d actually challenge your point on the English being bad losers, this time around anyway. Anything I’ve seen or heard has been gracious in defeat.

TheCitizen · 03-11-2019 4:34pm

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

Ah stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. They’re perfectly entitled to do what they want with the medal. They just lost a WC final, if they don’t want to put on them that’s completely fine and I can see where they are coming from.

Sweep Sweep, nothing to see here eh:pac:

RugbyLover123 wrote: »

And I’d actually challenge your point on the English being bad losers, this time around anyway. Anything I’ve seen or heard has been gracious in defeat.

Challenge all you like I disagree and they're even worse when they win. I'm delighted they didn't win for that reason.

nacho libre · 03-11-2019 4:43pm

walshb wrote: »

Personally I think the Aussies of 1991 were the strongest team of all the world cups, at that time..they were so strong in 1991..

I think New Zealand back in 1987 with the likes of Jones, Brooke, Shelford, Fitzpatrick, and Kirwan, were...

nacho libre · 03-11-2019 4:49pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

I think that' a bit unfair. Our team peaked in 2018. We don't have the resources to maintain that level for long periods. The timing didn't work in our favour but we were very impressive with that Grand Slam in 2018 and the wins over Australia and New Zealand. We beat south Africa 19 points to 3 in Lansdowne road in November 2017.

Maybe a tad harsh, as in the past we would have lost those games regardless, but i still think the South African side that day was not a patch on the South African side we saw yesterday. We lose to the top teams if they play at their best

pickarooney · 03-11-2019 11:11pm

Clegg wrote: »

Best stat about SA winning the World Cup is Francois Steyn becoming a double World Cup winner. How is he just 32? He won his first in 2007 when he was 20. A bloody baby!

And he beat an England squad featuring Owen Farrell's father.

fryup · 03-11-2019 11:25pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Pretty sure? Did they or not, pretty sure is neither here nor there.

England routinely are bad losers and even worse winners, at least we were spared that. Thanks South Africa.

give over with your anti-english nonsense..

this pic was taken after the match, the actions of a sore loser?

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Bridge93 · 04-11-2019 10:26am

So the last and only side to beat New Zealand in a World Cup game and then win a knockout game the following week is Australia in 1991? The mental, physical and emotional drain of doing it really must be something:

France 99, 07
England 19
Australia 03 have all beaten them in a semi or quarter and failed to win the next game I think? South Africa obviously didn’t have to play again in 95

jr86 · 04-11-2019 10:30am

Bridge93 wrote: »

So the last and only side to beat New Zealand in a World Cup game and then win a knockout game the following week is Australia in 1991? The mental, physical and emotional drain of doing it really must be something:

France 99, 07
England 19
Australia 03 have all beaten them in a semi or quarter and failed to win the next game I think? South Africa obviously didn’t have to play again in 95

As far as I recall France in 99/07 and obviously England in 19 were not just beaten but comprehensively beaten in their next matches after the ABs

Australia obviously pushed England all the way in 03, but they were at home

hahashake · 04-11-2019 12:56pm

Bridge93 wrote: »

So the last and only side to beat New Zealand in a World Cup game and then win a knockout game the following week is Australia in 1991? The mental, physical and emotional drain of doing it really must be something:

France 99, 07
England 19
Australia 03 have all beaten them in a semi or quarter and failed to win the next game I think? South Africa obviously didn’t have to play again in 95

I reckon backing up big performances is much harder than us laymen realise, physically and emotionally.

Gatland's and others comments were dismissed by some as gamesmanship or even bitterness but it's pretty clear from results that they are right.

TheCitizen · 04-11-2019 11:21pm

fryup wrote: »

give over with your anti-english nonsense..

this pic was taken after the match, the actions of a sore loser?

Of course they shook hands at the end why wouldn't they.

When the English win though they're unbearable, that's a fact. They were unbearable when they beat New Zealand, their press crowned them World Champions totally disrespecting Wales and South Africa before they even played their semi final.

If you make a point about that on here (an Irish rugby forum) though, you get this "anti English" vibe thing, what's that about exactly?

This was said in the English press after the Semi Final;

"Can England play that well again? Even if not, then even at 70% that could be enough to beat either Wales or South Africa."

It was printed in The Guardian just after the win over New Zealand. I think the article has been removed since but it was said in print.

Don't like the truth? Suck it up. Quit your sycophantic pro-English gibberish.

Yeah_Right · 05-11-2019 12:06pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

This was said in the English press after the Semi Final;

"Can England play that well again? Even if not, then even at 70% that could be enough to beat either Wales or South Africa."

It was printed in The Guardian just after the win over New Zealand. I think the article has been removed since but it was said in print.

Don't like the truth? Suck it up. Quit your sycophantic pro-English gibberish.

That is unbelievable!! I am shocked :eek: I can't believe a pundit/columnist would ever say such a thing. It is unheard of. It would certainly never, ever happen in any other country. I can't think of a single occasion where an Irish, Welsh, NZ or Australian rugby pundit has uttered something as ridiculous as that :rolleyes:

fryup · 05-11-2019 10:47pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

Of course they shook hands at the end why wouldn't they.

but Tom Currie didn't have to, but he graciously did.. hardly the behaviour of a sore loser now is it

TheCitizen wrote: »

When the English win though they're unbearable, that's a fact. They were unbearable when they beat New Zealand, their press crowned them World Champions totally disrespecting Wales and South Africa before they even played their semi final.

and are we any better?? we always talk up the irish team before every WC with talk of our "first ever semi's" dismissing who we meet in the pool stages...but Japan put paid to that this time around

TheCitizen · 05-11-2019 11:18pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That is unbelievable!! I am shocked :eek: I can't believe a pundit/columnist would ever say such a thing. It is unheard of. It would certainly never, ever happen in any other country. I can't think of a single occasion where an Irish, Welsh, NZ or Australian rugby pundit has uttered something as ridiculous as that :rolleyes:

It's not unbelievable at all, that's the way the English routinely go on. I doubt very much if an Ireland team beat NZ in a semi final that you'd have anyone foolish enough to make a comment like that re potential Final opponents.

You're trying way too hard mate.

TheCitizen · 05-11-2019 11:20pm

fryup wrote: »

but Tom Currie didn't have to, but he graciously did.. hardly the behaviour of a sore loser now is it

At the end of a game everyone (or most everyone) shakes hands

fryup wrote: »

and are we any better?? we always talk up the irish team before every WC with talk of our "first ever semi's" dismissing who we meet in the pool stages...but Japan put paid to that this time around

We're never as bad as the English like that, don't be ridiculous.

Yeah_Right · 06-11-2019 11:19am

TheCitizen wrote: »

It's not unbelievable at all, that's the way the English routinely go on. I doubt very much if an Ireland team beat NZ in a semi final that you'd have anyone foolish enough to make a comment like that re potential Final opponents.

You're trying way too hard mate.

I am guessing that you didn't read any Irish newspapers or websites in the year or 2 before the RWC. And that you didn't listen to any Irish rugby pundits or watch any Irish rugby shows. There were numerous occasions where the Irish team was talked up as potential world champions. Before the QF, Heaslip said that he wouldn't take any of the AB players over their Irish counterparts. I think BOD said something similar before the English match in the 6N this year.

Podge_irl · 06-11-2019 11:33am

TheCitizen wrote: »

This was said in the English press after the Semi Final;

"Can England play that well again? Even if not, then even at 70% that could be enough to beat either Wales or South Africa."

It was printed in The Guardian just after the win over New Zealand. I think the article has been removed since but it was said in print.

Don't like the truth? Suck it up. Quit your sycophantic pro-English gibberish.

What, exactly, is wrong with that statement?

fryup · 06-11-2019 12:35pm

and also those one quote equate for a whole nation??

watchin & listening to english media & team since the final they're nearly all in unison in saying SA were by far the better team, no sour grapes whatsoever

06-11-2019 1:06pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I am guessing that you didn't read any Irish newspapers or websites in the year or 2 before the RWC. And that you didn't listen to any Irish rugby pundits or watch any Irish rugby shows. There were numerous occasions where the Irish team was talked up as potential world champions. Before the QF, Heaslip said that he wouldn't take any of the AB players over their Irish counterparts. I think BOD said something similar before the English match in the 6N this year.

Did Heaslip actually say that?!

BOD's quote isn't as outrageous considering we were coming off a very good year and were big favourites against England at home.

06-11-2019 1:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Did Heaslip actually say that?!

BOD's quote isn't as outrageous considering we were coming off a very good year and were big favourites against England at home.

Almost, but not quite. He said that NZ might take one or two of Ireland's players

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/rugby-world-cup-tv-view-this-one-is-on-jamie-heaslip-1.4056687

Yeah_Right · 06-11-2019 2:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

BOD's quote isn't as outrageous considering we were coming off a very good year and were big favourites against England at home.

True. My point was that pundits and experts from every country have a tendency to indulge in a bit of hyperbole and that its not exclusive to England (as the other poster was saying). Also I have no real issue with a bit of hype and smack talk from fans and pundits in the pre-match. Its entertainment. And its much better than endless negativity.

P.Walnuts · 06-11-2019 3:04pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

True. My point was that pundits and experts from every country have a tendency to indulge in a bit of hyperbole and that its not exclusive to England (as the other poster was saying). Also I have no real issue with a bit of hype and smack talk from fans and pundits in the pre-match. Its entertainment. And its much better than endless negativity.

Where did you pull that Heaslip comment from?

Ash.J.Williams · 06-11-2019 3:21pm

i laughed out loud in the car on my own the week of the final, when the radio was asking people for predictions and everyone was on the England buzz after hammering NZ. So it was all england this and that and then over to Drico.."i have to say England" and then over to ROG

Well Rog are england going to be champions???
ROG "ehhhhhhhhh ..............no.

and then expertly tore them apart like SA did!

Yeah_Right · 06-11-2019 3:43pm

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Where did you pull that Heaslip comment from?

He said it live on TV pre-match. I can't remember his exact words but it was something along the lines of he wouldn't swap any of the Irish team for any of the ABs.

TheCitizen · 07-11-2019 1:44pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

What, exactly, is wrong with that statement?

Are you serious, the statement where they thought they could beat S Africa or Wales at 70%? You don't see anything wrong with that:pac:

Very strange attitude round here.

Podge_irl · 07-11-2019 2:00pm

The performance against NZ was phenomenal. One of the best performances I've seen. Saying performing at 70% of that could be enough to beat SA or Wales doesn't seem like a huge stretch to be honest.

TheCitizen · 07-11-2019 2:11pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

The performance against NZ was phenomenal. One of the best performances I've seen. Saying performing at 70% of that could be enough to beat SA or Wales doesn't seem like a huge stretch to be honest.

:pac:

As a matter of interest how did you think NZ performed in the semi final? I think they froze completely. Yes Eng;land were much the better team but NZ had several chances to get back in the game but they never got that purple patch they got v South Africa. In hindsight NZ weren't at all what they were cracked up to be and South Africa were the worthy World cup winners when they defeated England with ease.

England at 70% could have been good enough to win a World Cup Final? You're havin a laugh. A stupid and foolish comment indicative of the folly that routinely overcomes the English when they have a team that wins a game or two. Watching them get carried away and then come up short is tremendous fun.

sydthebeat · 07-11-2019 2:23pm

i love entrenched arguments about hyperbole and subjectiveness

Yeah_Right · 07-11-2019 3:02pm

TheCitizen wrote: »

:pac:

As a matter of interest how did you think NZ performed in the semi final? I think they froze completely. Yes Eng;land were much the better team but NZ had several chances to get back in the game but they never got that purple patch they got v South Africa. In hindsight NZ weren't at all what they were cracked up to be and South Africa were the worthy World cup winners when they defeated England with ease.

England at 70% could have been good enough to win a World Cup Final? You're havin a laugh. A stupid and foolish comment indicative of the folly that routinely overcomes the English when they have a team that wins a game or two. Watching them get carried away and then come up short is tremendous fun.

Jerry Flannery was saying that NZ had more offloads, line breaks and metres made than England but the Poms were desperate, scrambled brilliantly, made vital tackles that stopped any momentum. I think most people felt they wouldn't need to play at that level beat SA or Wales (based on how those teams had performed to that point). Turns out England did need to be near that level in the final.

I just don't understand why you think only English media and fans make hyperbolic statements before matches. Every country does it. I've given you examples.

TheCitizen · 07-11-2019 5:22pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Jerry Flannery was saying that NZ had more offloads, line breaks and metres made than England but the Poms were desperate, scrambled brilliantly, made vital tackles that stopped any momentum. I think most people felt they wouldn't need to play at that level beat SA or Wales (based on how those teams had performed to that point). Turns out England did need to be near that level in the final.

I just don't understand why you think only English media and fans make hyperbolic statements before matches. Every country does it. I've given you examples.

They all do to a certain extent yeah but the English beat the band at it. To say that a 70% performance would be enough to beat S Africa or Wales was really stupid.

hahashake · 08-11-2019 11:57am

How anyone can say the 70% comment wasn't stupid is beyond me. It completely ignores the fact that there are two teams playing. No team is a given level, if England can play at 70% then who says NZ weren't? Or SA weren't vs Wales or NZ?

TheCitizen · 08-11-2019 4:47pm

hahashake wrote: »

How anyone can say the 70% comment wasn't stupid is beyond me. It completely ignores the fact that there are two teams playing. No team is a given level, if England can play at 70% then who says NZ weren't? Or SA weren't vs Wales or NZ?

Thank fook, I thought I was going mad there for a moment that I was the only one on this thread who thought that the 70% comment in the British press was ridiculously arrogant and really really stupid.

Ardillaun · 09-11-2019 6:03am

Analysis of one game by an occasional viewer of the sport may have some limitations but when did that stop anyone? The final reminded me of the first Lions test match in SA in 2009 when, if I recall directly, Vickery came to grief in the scrum against the same Mtawarira while Julian White was left at home. The critical challenge against SA is to to match them up front in the set pieces; forward mobility in the loose is slightly less vital than against NZ. Losing Sinckler (who was excellent in this WC and really upped his discipline) was just bad luck but I think they should have started with Marler rather than Mako at loosehead. The scrum stabilised after he came on. Perhaps England didn’t modify their gameplan enough?

Regarding the backs, I have never been a fan of Farrell at 12 but he was behind a losing scrum and Cheslin was in a mood to make anyone look silly in that run for the try. Youngs had a bad game.

Ardillaun · 16-11-2019 6:04pm

Here’s Jones second-guessing himself. I agree that Marler and Ford should not have started but I don’t see the point of him saying that in public now. In a way, it’s blaming them for the loss and a coach should not do that:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/nov/16/england-eddie-jones-selection-mistakes-rugby-world-cup-final

Rugby World Cup Final 2019 Eng vs S Africa

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