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Waterford Politics MEGATHREAD

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Comments

  • #1602
    space2ground1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 ✭✭✭space2ground1


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    Do not misrepresent what I said, a question was asked and I answered, nothing more nothing less, I have been consistent in my criticism of this Government and there despicable contempt for Waterford, the context of this recent hypothetical conversation has been what is best strategy for Waterford to vote in the next GE.
    Read the thread before you make bald statements.

    Sorry I was certainly not referring to you in particular. Ive seen your pretty balanced approach in the thread. I'm talking about people I know who are FG supporters, people on social media who are FG supporters but don't tell anyone that etc. I specifically mean those who say... What do you mean we get no support.. We got a fire station! I wouldn't include you in that to be fair.


  • #1603
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    hardybuck wrote: »
    You realise that Coffey is currently a Minister for State? Considering that he's only in his first term that would be considered quite good progress.

    I would consider a wager that the next Government will not include independents. If they do they will be handpicked by FG.

    The support for Government parties will be fueled by the economic growth which will take place in the next 12 months. We've the fastest growing economy in Europe again, and there will be some room for manoeuvre in the next budget that will result put extra money in people's pockets.

    We need to keep the show on the road. It's credit to everyone that we didn't end up like Greece.

    With respect but this is just the politics of fear. The only difference between the economy now and during the bubble period is that the bubble is not as big. The current economic improvement is down the high growth in the American and UK markets which we benefit from because of the high levels of FDI. This has nothing to do with government policy! There is not one single measure you can point to from the government that has any causal link! Spending is still highly monitored by the troika and where the government has had independence they have behaved the exact same way as Fianna Fail during the bubble. Corruption metrics have gotten worse since this government took office. There are many who think that we are in another bubble now and if this is the case then we are just as much at risk as we were in 2008! The real Irish economy is still hugely undeveloped.Its pure dumb luck and nothing else that we are not like Greece. As for Paudie Coffey he is a Minister for State because FG knew he was a dead duck! If they think his seat is safe he will be more than likely back on the back benches.

    http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikepatton/2015/02/25/the-coming-financial-bubble-why-it-may-be-the-worst-of-all-part-ii/


  • #1604
    Scaldy Ned
    Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭Scaldy Ned


    hardybuck wrote: »
    It would be extremely helpful if Waterford got a Minister. Paudie Coffey would be the most likely potential minister from Waterford if returned in GE2016.


    Dont think it will happen because , Waterford is divvied up safe ....FF AND FG know Waterford will vote them in no matter what....so our thanks is indifference.
    Voted independents last time and was very dissapointed more in Waterford didnt do the same. The only way politicians take heed is if they feel the seats in doubt.
    I suppose we get what we deserve


  • #1605
    Speak Now
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,708 ✭✭✭Speak Now


    Scaldy Ned wrote: »
    Dont think it will happen because , Waterford is divvied up safe ....FF AND FG know Waterford will vote them in no matter what....so our thanks is indifference.
    Voted independents last time and was very dissapointed more in Waterford didnt do the same. The only way politicians take heed is if they feel the seats in doubt.
    I suppose we get what we deserve


    16% voted independent last time, a big poll in fairness from a constituency with little history of voting against the main parties. Well above the national average id imagine.


  • #1606
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Jerry Seinfeld wrote: »
    16% voted independent last time, a big poll in fairness from a constituency with little history of voting against the main parties. Well above the national average id imagine.

    There is also a huge misconception that a cabinet minister is required "to get things done!". This would be the case in a more stable political environment. However the political landscape now resembles the period of the famous or infamous Gregory deal of the 80's. In that situation it he negotiated a 100 mil investment in his constituency in 1982. Possibly equivalent to 350 million at least in today's terms. Puts a fire station into perspective.


  • #1607
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    There is also a huge misconception that a cabinet minister is required "to get things done!". This would be the case in a more stable political environment. However the political landscape now resembles the period of the famous or infamous Gregory deal of the 80's. In that situation it he negotiated a 100 mil investment in his constituency in 1982. Possibly equivalent to 350 million at least in today's terms. Puts a fire station into perspective.

    Precisely Fuzzy. As I said earlier, when we start getting excited over a sewage plant that in itself has to set off alarm bells.


  • #1608
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    On a different front does anyone have an opinion on the age for the President referendum. It seems to be the least cared about constitutional change I ever remember.


  • #1609
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    On a different front does anyone have an opinion on the age for the President referendum. It seems to be the least cared about constitutional change I ever remember.

    Absolutely waste of time and money.


  • #1610
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Absolutely waste of time and money.

    I agree, was this a solo run by Enda? I don't know of any demand from the public for it .personally I will vote no as I don't want some snot nose kid as our President.


  • #1611
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    I agree, was this a solo run by Enda? I don't know of any demand from the public for it .personally I will vote no as I don't want some snot nose kid as our President.

    The marriage referendum was pushed for by Labour. Probably had to stick something with it to justify it.


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  • #1612
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O



    So driving away i afforded myself a hypocritical smile as i thought to myself
    not one of these leeches ever worked a day in their lives,oh Michael Noonan how right you were!

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95400555&postcount=142

    I thought it would be better to reply to this post in the local politics thread, rather then reply and drag the water charge thread off topic.

    The thing about people out of work there are many different reasons, some may have lost their jobs, and some may have difficulty getting a job, a person I know had trouble finding work before in the past because of being from and living in a certain area, the person rang up and enquired about jobs advertised in the local papers, a few times when the employer asked where the person lived etc, once hearing from that certain area the employer make the excuse the positions have being filled we keep you on file etc, then upon never hearing anything back , I don,t think it is anyones fault that they were from or raised in a certain area of town - I wouldn,t agree tarring everyone with the one brush which is the treatment someone I know has received in the past.


  • #1613
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    S.O wrote: »
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95400555&postcount=142

    I thought it would be better to reply to this post in the local politics thread, rather then reply and drag the water charge thread off topic.

    The thing about people out of work there are many different reasons, some may have lost their jobs, and some may have difficulty getting a job, a person I know had trouble finding work before in the past because of being from and living in a certain area, the person rang up and enquired about jobs advertised in the local papers, a few times when the employer asked where the person lived etc, once hearing from that certain area the employer make the excuse the positions have being filled we keep you on file etc, then upon never hearing anything back , I don,t think it is anyones fault that they were from or raised in a certain area of town - I wouldn,t agree tarring everyone with the one brush which is the treatment someone I know has received in the past.

    Could not argue with an iota of your post, but it does not mean that there are not serial unemployed. There are, I know quite a few, some are totally dysfunctional through drink drugs mental issues, some have made a lifestyle choice, some need the cover of social welfare to carry on their black activities, for people to deny the existence of this part of our society on the idealistic grounds of socialism or some other ****e is just stupid.


  • #1614
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    Could not argue with an iota of your post, but it does not mean that there are not serial unemployed. There are, I know quite a few, some are totally dysfunctional through drink drugs mental issues, some have made a lifestyle choice, some need the cover of social welfare to carry on their black activities, for people to deny the existence of this part of our society on the idealistic grounds of socialism or some other ****e is just stupid.

    I know there is a small per % out there that have drink or drug problems that don,t want to work, no argument from me there about that one, whenever someone brings up the topic of people long term out of work/unemployed I always think its important to distinguish between those who want to work but find it hard to get work because lack of skills or because some employers stigmatise if you re from a certain area vs those in the category of those who don,t want to work.


  • #1615
    S.O
    Closed Accounts Posts: 397 ✭✭S.O


    On another note did anyone spot the no campaigners in John Roberts square this afternoon ? I took a leaflet off them, sound arguments on it for reasons to vote no.


  • #1616
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    S.O wrote: »
    On another note did anyone spot the no campaigners in John Roberts square this afternoon ? I took a leaflet off them, sound arguments on it for reasons to vote no.

    You think ? Are you serious or being disingenuous? That leaflet contains innuendo assertions but definitely no facts.


  • #1617
    robtri
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    You think ? Are you serious or being disingenuous? That leaflet contains innuendo assertions but definitely no facts.

    my exact thoughts.... terrible piece of literature...


  • #1618
    7upfree
    Registered Users Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭7upfree


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    You think ? Are you serious or being disingenuous? That leaflet contains innuendo assertions but definitely no facts.

    We live in a democracy. All sides must be heard.


  • #1619
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    7upfree wrote: »
    We live in a democracy. All sides must be heard.

    Totally agree but if the king has no clothes , I for one will not keep my mouth shut.


  • #1620
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    wellboytoo wrote: »
    You think ? Are you serious or being disingenuous? That leaflet contains innuendo assertions but definitely no facts.
    Are you sure there are no facts there? Seems you're a bit skimpily clad yourself.Proverbially speaking of course.


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  • #1621
    Max Powers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    S.O wrote: »
    On another note did anyone spot the no campaigners in John Roberts square this afternoon ? I took a leaflet off them, sound arguments on it for reasons to vote no.

    Quick glance at leaflet and its a rehash of their usual disingenuous to down right lies about surrogacy, adoption etc etc.

    The ref has nothing to do with surrogacy, If a surrogate arrangement is in place here, it has no legal basis, the mother who gave birth will be the mother on the cert and if a couple want to adopt they need to go thru the procedures. Most surrogate arrangements across the globe involve hetero couples, not evil gay people like Elton John the Iona would have you believe. (I dont think Elton John is evil, you know what i mean)
    This ref has nothing to do with adoption either and its passing or not will not affect anyones including gay couple right to adopt. The law doesnt discriminate now and it wont change (on adoption) be it YES or NO.

    Iona (Mothers and babies group et al) have consistently avoided the core of the referendum...EQUALITY and consistently brought in hardly connected topics and scaremongering people into thinking if this passes that society will collapse. IOna/church had the same 'end of society' rhetoric when the divorce ref was happening, when civil partnership ref was on etc, both passed and it has no negative consequences.

    on a differnt note, it must be very hard growing up gay especially in this country, a no vote would send a terrible message to youth and message about what type of society we have. Gay people dont have equality becasue they cant marry like the rest of us. I have kids, nephews and nieces who could be gay, i dont want them to grow up in secrecy, like they are holding a dark secret, more prone to depression, suicide etc. On a diffferent note again, if the church/Iona dedicated as much time to getting their own house in order (Paedophile priests, covering up, lying, etc etc) they would garner a lot more respect from me and most others rather than trying to discriminate the gay population from society.


  • #1622
    Gardner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Gardner


    just watch Dail on the Dole there. very sad and it opens your eyes up to the failed systems the FG/LAB government have in place.


  • #1623
    Max Powers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    Gardner wrote: »
    just watch Dail on the Dole there. very sad and it opens your eyes up to the failed systems the FG/LAB government have in place.

    was sad in places yeah. I dont think blaming FG/Lab for all of it is balanced though. Mostly glass workers who went out of business, cant blame any party for that. FF made the recession worse by laying the foundations for a massive recession. More can be done and should be done but we still dont have the money, still borrowing, still under-resourced hospitals, schools, childcare mess etc etc, all issues for decades, all should be priorities along with helping people back to work.


  • #1624
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,510 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Just a reminder....
    Cabaal wrote: »
    guys, can we get back on topic here. Plenty of other threads discussing marriage equality and views on "familys" in far more appropriate forums then the Waterford forum.


  • #1625
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I would say that there is little or no chance of an independent getting a post such as Social Protection. I should also add that these independents and others forming alliances before being elected is quite presumptuous as none of them know if they'll be elected or not.

    I doubt that there will be a hung Dail. Support for the Government parties has surged in the last 3 months. I fully expect this to continue over the next 12 months before GE 2016. Joan Burton is apparently the most popular leader.

    Party support levels can be difficult to measure in terms of seats. In the last election for example Labour had 19.4% of the vote and had 37 seats, while FF had 17.4% of the vote and got only 20 seats. While the support for independents as a whole is high, nobody knows how this will translate into elected TDs - I would suspect it would be a very fractured vote.

    As I've been saying for quite some time, I fully expect it to be FG and Labour again, with any shortfall being made up by a group of 'moderate' independents, probably of FG's choosing. Renua or others might come into the mix.

    I thought someone would mention this yesterday, but I think it's worth noting the latest opinion poll results yesterday http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/poll-shows-fine-gael-back-on-top-as-it-regains-confidence-of-key-voters-1.2215958

    This highlights the continued increase in Government, and really by that I mean FG support, in recent months. Labour seem to be static on 7%. What is key when you drill down into the figures is the return of support among groups that backed them heavily in 2011, i.e. the rural and over 65s.

    Expect over the next 10-11 months for the 'squeezed middle class' vote to go in a similar direction with the improved economic conditions, probably the banks passing on savings from interest rate cuts, and a favourable package in the October budget.


  • #1626
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    hardybuck wrote: »
    I thought someone would mention this yesterday, but I think it's worth noting the latest opinion poll results yesterday http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/poll-shows-fine-gael-back-on-top-as-it-regains-confidence-of-key-voters-1.2215958

    This highlights the continued increase in Government, and really by that I mean FG support, in recent months. Labour seem to be static on 7%. What is key when you drill down into the figures is the return of support among groups that backed them heavily in 2011, i.e. the rural and over 65s.

    Expect over the next 10-11 months for the 'squeezed middle class' vote to go in a similar direction with the improved economic conditions, probably the banks passing on savings from interest rate cuts, and a favourable package in the October budget.

    There is a few flaws in your arguement. The first is that the increase in suport for FF is the same as FG (almost). Also this is not core support which is in fact much lower for all parties. If the "squeezed middle" are being squeezed by the government then why would they go back to them in droves? There is a lot of ifs, buts and maybes there. Will the government be scandal free for the next 11 months? I seriously doubt it. Will there be no IW style incompetence or parish pump antics with regard to hospitals etc? Definitely not! But the real story here is for people who are advocating a strategic vote for an independent candidate. The government parties will not have enough seats for a new government. And there are also two other players SF and FF. So for Waterford it is an ideal situation to vote strategically. Something along the lines of 1FG,1FF, 1SF and 1 Independent.


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  • #1627
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    fuzzy dunlop wrote: »
    There is a few flaws in your arguement. The first is that the increase in suport for FF is the same as FG (almost). Also this is not core support which is in fact much lower for all parties. If the "squeezed middle" are being squeezed by the government then why would they go back to them in droves? There is a lot of ifs, buts and maybes there. Will the government be scandal free for the next 11 months? I seriously doubt it. Will there be no IW style incompetence or parish pump antics with regard to hospitals etc? Definitely not! But the real story here is for people who are advocating a strategic vote for an independent candidate. The government parties will not have enough seats for a new government. And there are also two other players SF and FF. So for Waterford it is an ideal situation to vote strategically. Something along the lines of 1FG,1FF, 1SF and 1 Independent.

    Oh yeah, absolutely FF have gone up too. But at the moment for me they're too far behind, I don't think have the ability to figure in a Government this time around, and I think they'd nearly admit that themselves. The best place for them is probably opposition until they rebuild a bit more.

    For me the squeezed middle will go in a couple of different directions, but they'll tend to go more towards who's giving them money in January 2016.

    Scandals are always a risk, however we've seen for that most parties don't seem to be too badly impacted by them. SF have a hardcore that will seemingly be unmoved by any type of scandal, and FF got more popular in the past whenever they had a bit of scandal. Which was often.

    I think we'll definitely see more independents, Renuas and the AAAs in the future, but I just can't see that vote being coordinated in any real strategic fashion. Time will tell.


  • #1628
    Gardner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Gardner


    Jaysus Cullinane had a stinker on Vinny last night. I think the chap needs to go off and reeducate himself on how to use a calculator. He wont be challenging Pearce Doherty anytime soon internally


  • #1629
    wellboytoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭wellboytoo


    Gardner wrote: »
    Jaysus Cullinane had a stinker on Vinny last night. I think the chap needs to go off and reeducate himself on how to use a calculator. He wont be challenging Pearce Doherty anytime soon internally

    I'll take your word for it, couldn't handle watching that programme for more than 30 seconds.


  • #1630
    Smiley Burnett
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 511 ✭✭✭Smiley Burnett


    anyone that's out working and paying a mortgage wont go near sf/aaa/halligan's crew/social democrats etc. All they keep on about is the "Scandinavian Model" of "progressive" taxation. In other words, they'll fleece everyone who's doing a day's work!


  • #1631
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,887 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    Smiley Burnett wrote: »
    anyone that's out working and paying a mortgage wont go near sf/aaa/halligan's crew/social democrats etc. All they keep on about is the "Scandinavian Model" of "progressive" taxation. In other words, they'll fleece everyone who's doing a day's work!

    no they won't, they will do the same that this government is doing


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  • #1632
    fuzzy dunlop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,196 ✭✭✭fuzzy dunlop


    Smiley Burnett wrote: »
    anyone that's out working and paying a mortgage wont go near sf/aaa/halligan's crew/social democrats etc. All they keep on about is the "Scandinavian Model" of "progressive" taxation. In other words, they'll fleece everyone who's doing a day's work!

    You obviously don't know what the Scandinavian Model is. As for fleecing people FG and Labour have been doing plenty of that already. Unless you play golf with Enda and or bump into Phil Hogan in Mount Juliet. Then you get hundreds of millions written off.


  • #1633
    space2ground1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 569 ✭✭✭space2ground1


    I wonder would it be too much to hope for in the run up to the election for people to make it known here (if they wish) if they've a political affiliation or membership. I often wonder when I see people on social media badly disguising their love for fianna whatever if they think people haven't copped it. Its generally pretty obvious.

    It might just give the more non alligned among us a bit of a heads up on where people are in terms of views/sides.

    I find the party system very closely linked to sports club mentality. I can't fathom spending time / agreeing with / supporting the fella up the road because his jersey is a different colour to mine. I want to see his team lose matches and I want lots of people to like my team more. In reality, that seems to be the core of the existing party structures because everyone's trying to get the ball between the posts anyway.

    Having said that, I like the idea of the social democrats. They are a party but I'll be watching closely to see do they behave like the existing parties we have to choose from. I can see them doing well. I can't bring myself to offer much joy on the doorstep to the existing parties anyway. Fianna Fáil presided over the country's downfall. FG in opposition seemed to push for more of the exact policies that they now criticise. Labour were very vocal in opposition but have lost my confidence completely. The problem I have here is the expectation that we'll have to choose from the party that oversaw the recession or the 2 parties that claim to be restoring the economy but in a way that has in this term led to the alienation of my home city from that plan (In my opinion!).

    It'll take a lot to move me away from independents or social democrats if they continue to tick my political boxes.

    Do parties employ people to trawl social media or boards to post as regular users on their behalf? It would seem logical I guess if a bit shifty? Also, do parties actively encourage members to try to remain anonymous and post the party line on the internet. Again it would make sense I suppose. I just enjoy watching the process of elections and this will be the most twitterised / social media focussed of them all so far I would imagine.


  • #1634
    MRnotlob606
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    Voted for an independent hoping it would bring about change, but no, he joins fianna fàil shortly after.It's going to be difficult to change the political system in Ireland.


  • #1635
    revisionist
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭revisionist


    Smiley Burnett wrote: »
    anyone that's out working and paying a mortgage wont go near sf/aaa/halligan's crew/social democrats etc. All they keep on about is the "Scandinavian Model" of "progressive" taxation. In other words, they'll fleece everyone who's doing a day's work!

    A lot like the current rabble in government do.....................:rolleyes:


  • #1636
    Finnbar01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,071 ✭✭✭Finnbar01


    Smiley Burnett wrote: »
    anyone that's out working and paying a mortgage wont go near sf/aaa/halligan's crew/social democrats etc. All they keep on about is the "Scandinavian Model" of "progressive" taxation. In other words, they'll fleece everyone who's doing a day's work!

    Scandinavian Model me arse. I know people (including family members) who never worked a day in their lives, heading into their 40s now. No way would that be allowed in Scandinavian.


  • #1637
    Gardner
    Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭Gardner


    Smiley Burnett wrote: »
    anyone that's out working and paying a mortgage wont go near sf/aaa/halligan's crew/social democrats etc. All they keep on about is the "Scandinavian Model" of "progressive" taxation. In other words, they'll fleece everyone who's doing a day's work!


    not as if we are getting fleeced as it is at the moment is any different.

    i will be voting independent again as "halligans crew" have been a breath of fresh air in this Dail term. in fact the whole technical group have been excellent in opposition. ff and sf have been very poor in dail exchanges from what i seen over the last 4 years.

    halligan will come close to topping the poll with cullinane and deasy very close behind. conway is gone and paudie is in alot of trouble.


  • #1638
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Gardner wrote: »
    not as if we are getting fleeced as it is at the moment is any different.

    Do you know that a single person in Denmark making the average industrial wage or below that amount pays roughly 13 times more tax than their Irish equivalent?


  • #1639
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,887 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Do you know that a single person in Denmark making the average industrial wage or below that amount pays roughly 13 times more tax than their Irish equivalent?

    Do they pay the same amount of charges and levies on utility bills, insurance, mortgages, pensions and so on?


  • #1640
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Hijpo wrote: »
    Do they pay the same amount of charges and levies on utility bills, insurance, mortgages, pensions and so on?

    We're talking mainly about taxes here and the concept that if you want more you need to contribute more.

    I haven't done any detailed analysis of Denmark, but I know it's an extremely expensive country to live in. You get good services for that, and nice public spaces etc., but you've paid for them.

    Things like rent, property prices are roughly 20% higher than Ireland, and that will have an obvious impact on mortgages. Utilities are about 10-15% higher than Ireland.


  • #1641
    Max Powers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,510 ✭✭✭Max Powers


    hardybuck wrote: »
    We're talking mainly about taxes here and the concept that if you want more you need to contribute more.

    I haven't done any detailed analysis of Denmark, but I know it's an extremely expensive country to live in. You get good services for that, and nice public spaces etc., but you've paid for them.

    Things like rent, property prices are roughly 20% higher than Ireland, and that will have an obvious impact on mortgages. Utilities are about 10-15% higher than Ireland.

    heard a fella on the radio months back, saying for all the money we put into the HSE, when compared with other countries and their systems, we should have a top class system so with that, my own experiences and what i hear on the radio/tv/papers, throwing more tax money at the HSE may not be whats most needed. Granted some things like child care, disabled and elderly care are woefully underfunded, you could argue the money is not getting to where it needs to go.


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  • #1642
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Max Powers wrote: »
    heard a fella on the radio months back, saying for all the money we put into the HSE, when compared with other countries and their systems, we should have a top class system so with that, my own experiences and what i hear on the radio/tv/papers, throwing more tax money at the HSE may not be whats most needed. Granted some things like child care, disabled and elderly care are woefully underfunded, you could argue the money is not getting to where it needs to go.

    I think very few people fully understand the HSE, where it's funding is going or not going, and what can be done to fix it.

    I know that they were looking at places like Holland and trying to see what could be learned. They have a approach where money follows the patient which seemed to make sense.

    With an aging population we're going to have serious issues providing more services. Just even the cost of pensions alone will mushroom dramatically.


  • #1643
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,887 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    hardybuck wrote: »
    We're talking mainly about taxes here and the concept that if you want more you need to contribute more.

    I haven't done any detailed analysis of Denmark, but I know it's an extremely expensive country to live in. You get good services for that, and nice public spaces etc., but you've paid for them.

    Things like rent, property prices are roughly 20% higher than Ireland, and that will have an obvious impact on mortgages. Utilities are about 10-15% higher than Ireland.

    But isnt that how the spinsters brag about how low Irelands taxes are compared to other countries?

    Comparisons are not accurate if you say (for example) "only 20% of a persons income is taxed" and then leave out the bit where another 20% is gone in the form of additional levies and charges applied to all the compulsory bills and contributions people pay for, without including the government imposed increases to business costs (bin companies for example) that get passed on to the people in the form of increased charges.

    I dont think anyone disputes that things need to be paid for but to be fair to the tax, charges and levy payers the government is not prioritising spending or managing its departments and bodies effectively. Instead they just keep taking more to paper over the cracks.

    Ludicrous situation.


  • #1644
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Hijpo wrote: »
    But isnt that how the spinsters brag about how low Irelands taxes are compared to other countries?

    Comparisons are not accurate if you say (for example) "only 20% of a persons income is taxed" and then leave out the bit where another 20% is gone in the form of additional levies and charges applied to all the compulsory bills and contributions people pay for, without including the government imposed increases to business costs (bin companies for example) that get passed on to the people in the form of increased charges.

    I dont think anyone disputes that things need to be paid for but to be fair to the tax, charges and levy payers the government is not prioritising spending or managing its departments and bodies effectively. Instead they just keep taking more to paper over the cracks.

    Ludicrous situation.

    But I've not done that. I'll put it back to you, tell me how costs here compare? I provided you with several costs which are lower here, maybe you can provide something competing evidence?

    To compliment the tax differences between Ireland and Denmark and to respond to your general points about consumer prices, I'll give you another indicator - consumer price index. Currently in Denmark it's 88.31, and in Ireland it's 79.71.


  • #1645
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,887 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    From what i can see, certain individual pricing seems to be slightly less expensive in Ireland compared to Denmark. However, where Ireland is dearer it is upwards of 40 and 50%

    In terms of living here in Ireland rents are higher, average disposable salary after tax are lower, mortgage rates are higher. So yeah, you can say Ireland tax rate is 48% and Denmark is 55% but what i am highlighting is the other things that government has chipping away at disposable income.

    Only two years ago it was found the average disposable income had dropped for the fourth year in a row. I don't imagine people to be in better financial position today.


  • #1646
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Hijpo wrote: »
    From what i can see, certain individual pricing seems to be slightly less expensive in Ireland compared to Denmark. However, where Ireland is dearer it is upwards of 40 and 50%

    In terms of living here in Ireland rents are higher, average disposable salary after tax are lower, mortgage rates are higher. So yeah, you can say Ireland tax rate is 48% and Denmark is 55% but what i am highlighting is the other things that government has chipping away at disposable income.

    Only two years ago it was found the average disposable income had dropped for the fourth year in a row. I don't imagine people to be in better financial position today.

    Where have you seen that info on items which were dearer? Were they 50% of a low priced item or high priced?

    Certainly from what you see around the country people are definitely spending more money in pubs, restaurants, holidays etc. That would seem to indicate people either have more disposable income or they're more confident about spending it.


  • #1647
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,887 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    hardybuck wrote: »
    Where have you seen that info on items which were dearer? Were they 50% of a low priced item or high priced?

    Certainly from what you see around the country people are definitely spending more money in pubs, restaurants, holidays etc. That would seem to indicate people either have more disposable income or they're more confident about spending it.

    A liter of milk is almost 20% dearer here, beer is 54%, cigarettes are 74%, monthly transportation pass is almost 85% dearer.
    Straight away you can see extra cost on a basic household consumable, big increases for simple social items and a large increase in order to get to the place you work to earn the money to pay for the previous items.

    That increase could easily be attributed to the seasons and tourism.


  • #1648
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Hijpo wrote: »
    That could easily be attributed to the seasons and tourism.

    Retail sales are up 3.1% in value and 5.4% in volume in 12 months

    New cars licensed is up 15.8% in the last 12 months.

    Personal consumption expenditure is up 3.6% in the last 12 months.

    GDP is up 6.1% and GNP is up 6.2%.

    The consumer price index has dropped 0.1% in the last 12 months.

    Trips made overseas from Ireland in April to June 2015 increased by 9.1% on the same period in 2014.

    Have you any figures to contradict or just hearsay?


  • #1649
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Hijpo wrote: »
    A liter of milk is almost 20% dearer here, beer is 54%, cigarettes are 74%, monthly transportation pass is almost 85% dearer.
    Straight away you can see extra cost on a basic household consumable, big increases for simple social items and a large increase in order to get to the place you work to earn the money to pay for the previous items.

    That increase could easily be attributed to the seasons and tourism.

    So a litre of milk is from 75c to €1. Denmark is 20% cheaper so that's 15c to 20c of a saving. A pint of beer is say €5.40 (a bit on the high side but we'll go with it) that's probably €2.50 - 3.00 cheaper. Monthly transportation price difference doesn't factor in the tax saver I'd imagine which can knock 52% off the price of a ticket.

    You're comparing pennies and pounds on milk compared to large expenditure differences on rent and income tax.

    By coincidence I was just speaking to someone this morning who was on holidays in Copenhagen last week and advised that prices were significantly higher.


  • #1650
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,887 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    hardybuck wrote: »
    So a litre of milk is from 75c to €1. Denmark is 20% cheaper so that's 15c to 20c of a saving. A pint of beer is say €5.40 (a bit on the high side but we'll go with it) that's probably €2.50 - 3.00 cheaper. Monthly transportation price difference doesn't factor in the tax saver I'd imagine which can knock 52% off the price of a ticket.

    You're comparing pennies and pounds on milk compared to large expenditure differences on rent and income tax.

    By coincidence I was just speaking to someone this morning who was on holidays in Copenhagen last week and advised that prices were significantly higher.

    Given that the richer in society stand to benefit more from the recent budget its hard to attribute and significant increases in stats to the general population of this country. So the figures and stats amount to them just being figures and stats and cannot be accurately/directly attributed to any claims the citizens of Ireland are flush again.
    Perhaps the increase in retail is to do with more immigrants coming to Ireland and its not actually low-mid income families spending more?

    A lot like the claims the increase in suicides was a direct result of the recession? Suicides went up a long with unemployment but can one directly influence the other? by how much? significantly?


    Im comparing items that are regularly bought in bulk. If you buy three pints that is an extra €9 above Denmark for example.

    The point im making with regards income tax and disposable income is that its not a true comparison when put beside the likes of Denmark that implement higher income taxes because of the extra levies and charges applied to necessities and compulsory outgoings here.

    I was speaking to a taxi driver in Dublin and he said its dearer here........


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  • #1651
    hardybuck
    Registered Users Posts: 5,174 ✭✭✭hardybuck


    Hijpo wrote: »
    Given that the richer in society stand to benefit more from the recent budget its hard to attribute and significant increases in stats to the general population of this country. So the figures and stats amount to them just being figures and stats and cannot be accurately/directly attributed to any claims the citizens of Ireland are flush again.
    Perhaps the increase in retail is to do with more immigrants coming to Ireland and its not actually low-mid income families spending more?

    A lot like the claims the increase in suicides was a direct result of the recession? Suicides went up a long with unemployment but can one directly influence the other? by how much? significantly?


    Im comparing items that are regularly bought in bulk. If you buy three pints that is an extra €9 above Denmark for example.

    The point im making with regards income tax and disposable income is that its not a true comparison when put beside the likes of Denmark that implement higher income taxes because of the extra levies and charges applied to necessities and compulsory outgoings here.

    I was speaking to a taxi driver in Dublin and he said its dearer here........

    Listen, I've given you probably a dozen economic indicators, tax comparisons and cost of living comparisons. If you don't want to believe cold hard facts then that's your own business.

    I suppose the rich will end up paying for the services regardless. They'll either buy them when they need them and they're paying for them now via their taxes anyway.

    You mention all the immigrants rushing to Ireland, are they rushing to this utopian Danish society?


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