Soil Organic Matter discussion.

Farmer Ed · 11-10-2017 1:23pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Exactly, you can fix N from the atmosphere but where does the P and K come from. That said , plants have been growing for millennia without the use of artificial NPK fertilisers.

Not saying they are correct? But the theory is it is coming from the rock and stone as it breaks down. It is no longer disputed that microscorizal fungi greatly extend the ability of a plats root to access nutrients. So maybe?

keryl · 11-10-2017 2:45pm

White Clover wrote: »

The fertilizer and seed industries are scratching each other's backs. Ryegrasses today will not persist without huge amounts of artificial fertilizer. When they don't get all this fert, they die away and the whole process of reseeding the ryegrass starts again,
I think the likes of herbal leys have a huge role to play on non intensively farmed land.

Very much so, I like Newman Turners examples of reducing illnesses in cattle by herbal leys and improving the soil and biodiversity in one go.

patsy_mccabe · 02-08-2020 10:11pm

Castlekeeper · 03-08-2020 12:33pm

A bit weak wasn't it?
Stuff straight out of the 1970's there.. "95% of soils are deficient in P K or lime" ... god help us.
A unique mix of soil and climate ... blah blah.
The ony bit of sense was that the best thing you could do for soil was to leave it alone.

patsy_mccabe · 03-08-2020 12:45pm

I wonder when they talk about the depletion of soil in 10 years, do they include soil in pastureland.

Say my name · 03-08-2020 1:00pm

Castlekeeper wrote: »

A bit weak wasn't it?
Stuff straight out of the 1970's there.. "95% of soils are deficient in P K or lime" ... god help us.
A unique mix of soil and climate ... blah blah.
The ony bit of sense was that the best thing you could do for soil was to leave it alone.

What's your thoughts on Organic nitrogen and carbon storage, soil building?

Say artificial Nitrogen is regarded as detrimental to soil building, carbon building.
Does organic nitrogen have the same impact?

Just thinking out loud if someone propagated biology aerobically in a tank for the maximum nitrogen/amino acid amount possible and then they applied that to the land. Then the question might go to probably would it be better to apply that biology live as opposed to let them turn to nitrate and apply that way.
Then thoughts turn to does artificial nitrogen retain harmful elements from its underground gasfield origin and manufacture that makes it harmful to soil life?
Doesn't clover and vetch root have a harmful effect on soil carbon building?

Thoughts....and apologies.:pac:

Buford T. Justice XIX · 03-08-2020 1:14pm

No, soils from pasture would generally be safe from degradation.

The problems of soil degradation would mostly come from soils continually cultivated and the SOM being degraded so much that the land would find it difficult to grow any crops due to inability to store moisture and nutrients. Then they are prone to wind blow, similar to the dust bowl of the Americas during the early years of the last century. There's also a good few videos on Twitter of similar in the UK.

And soils without good crop establishment would also be prone to washing away from heavy rains as there's not enough leaf mass to reduce the impact of the rain nor root mass to bind the soil together as the excess water flows away with soil particles in suspension. I saw similar on a building site in Cork last year where the water flowed down the slope of the site and you could see a huge channel where the water had taken the soil.

Waffletractor would be the best man to ask on that though.

Edit: In reply to Patsy above, quote never came up.

Castlekeeper · 03-08-2020 3:41pm

Buford T. Justice XIX wrote: »

No, soils from pasture would generally be safe from degradation.

The problems of soil degradation would mostly come from soils continually cultivated and the SOM being degraded so much that the land would find it difficult to grow any crops due to inability to store moisture and nutrients. Then they are prone to wind blow, similar to the dust bowl of the Americas during the early years of the last century. There's also a good few videos on Twitter of similar in the UK.

And soils without good crop establishment would also be prone to washing away from heavy rains as there's not enough leaf mass to reduce the impact of the rain nor root mass to bind the soil together as the excess water flows away with soil particles in suspension. I saw similar on a building site in Cork last year where the water flowed down the slope of the site and you could see a huge channel where the water had taken the soil.

Waffletractor would be the best man to ask on that though.

Edit: In reply to Patsy above, quote never came up.

There's more to soil degradation than physical soil erosion.
Most modern pastureland managed under industrial chemical blueprints would be degrading.
Losses of humus, soil biology and trace elements would all be symptoms. For instance artificial N fertiliser slowly burns soil carbon, and binds with traces such as Boron reducing their levels through leaching.
Shallow rooting pastures with poor diversity cause lower levels of soil to be suffocated due to lack of physical activity and soil biology to be starved due to lack of root exudates, resulting in soil loss from the bottom rather than the top. This is easily observed on anyone's farm with a spade by comparing a sod from a relevant pasture to one of similar soil type that is under nature's regime.
Other evidence of such degraded soils is that they may be more vulnerable to compaction, water logging, or drought, and are incapable of supporting healthy plant growth without plentiful and regular applications of fertilisers.

Castlekeeper · 03-08-2020 3:59pm

Say my name wrote: »

What's your thoughts on Organic nitrogen and carbon storage, soil building?

Say artificial Nitrogen is regarded as detrimental to soil building, carbon building.
Does organic nitrogen have the same impact?

Just thinking out loud if someone propagated biology aerobically in a tank for the maximum nitrogen/amino acid amount possible and then they applied that to the land. Then the question might go to probably would it be better to apply that biology live as opposed to let them turn to nitrate and apply that way.
Then thoughts turn to does artificial nitrogen retain harmful elements from its underground gasfield origin and manufacture that makes it harmful to soil life?
Doesn't clover and vetch root have a harmful effect on soil carbon building?

Thoughts....and apologies.:pac:

From what I've read and also from hearing soil experts answer on N sources, my simple understanding is that the key thing with N is C. And by its very name, organic N comes with biologically assimilated C which prevents the initial harmful interactions with the soil and allows the soil biology to work with it. Hence the use of molasses and humates with liquified urea to try and achieve a simplified version.
Similarly with the legume roots, the N is only releases when the roots with active nodules die off, which accounts for the non N contribution of young clover plants. This is just the decay of a high organic N source within its natural biome and part of the N cycle as far as I understand it.

I've no idea about the harmful side effects of the fossil fuel sourced N but it would stand to reason on a molecular signalling level.
That same signalling is believed to be the same benefit of applying "good" soil biological amendments, as in complex and diverse with healthy fungal, aerobic and anaerobic components, and that the actual bugs ate dead within hours of spreading, so I'm not sure on the slurry theory. I've heard that slurry aeration is very benficial for creating and maintaining a healthy biological profile though, those I know who have it wouldn't throw it out.

As I've heard Albrecht quoted on synthetic vs organic fertilisers, "you'll find more intelligence in 1 gram of organic matter than in all the soil scientists of the world" !

Waffletraktor · 03-08-2020 5:16pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Turned off when she went on about 100 years of harvests left, even the anti farming BBC investigated it on a fairly serious radio 4 scientific show More or Less back in May iirc. The conclusion was it's at best bolloxology.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08dx986

patsy_mccabe · 03-08-2020 6:27pm

First pic here is next door to land away from the house. My place in second pic is just to the right on the other side of the hedge.
The first place is totally natural. Never got fertiliser, slurry or lime. Just grazed. Covered in rushes chest high. Absentee landlord, rented out.
Mine never got slurry or reseeded. Just fert and lime.

Castlekeeper · 03-08-2020 9:25pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

First pic here is next door to land away from the house. My place in second pic is just to the right on the other side of the hedge.
The first place is totally natural. Never got fertiliser, slurry or lime. Just grazed. Covered in rushes chest high. Absentee landlord, rented out.
Mine never got slurry or reseeded. Just fert and lime.

Same or different grazing regimes and cutting management otherwise.?
Production wise they're probably growing the same biomass in tonnes/ha

Dig a few sods in both including under the rushes, and give us some feed back. Have the clumps of brambles ith the saplings started appearing yet in your neighbours?
Secondary succession at work, protecting nutrients and resources and ultimately maximising biodiversity and ecosystem stability.

Soil Organic Matter discussion.

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