Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Soil Organic Matter discussion.

Options
2

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    Actually I came across a slurry additive recently called Plocher. Its been around for a long time and there is even some old stuff on boards about it. Just wondering has anyone used it as it claims to be very beneficial to soil. I know Bishop Burton college in the UK have used it and the feedback was very positive. Just I am not aware of any official trials that have been done on it? First I thought it was bacteria and enzymes, but apparently its not? Not sure anyone fully understands how it works? But I have yet to see any negative feedback about it?


  • Options
    #33
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Actually I came across a slurry additive recently called Plocher. Its been around for a long time and there is even some old stuff on boards about it. Just wondering has anyone used it as it claims to be very beneficial to soil. I know Bishop Burton college in the UK have used it and the feedback was very positive. Just I am not aware of any official trials that have been done on it? First I thought it was bacteria and enzymes, but apparently its not? Not sure anyone fully understands how it works? But I have yet to see any negative feedback about it?
    I used a version of it this winter. I reckon it pays for itself in terms of agitating slurry alone. The contractor agitated my tank in a few minutes this spring rather than over a few hours normally. Ads for pasture benefits with increased nutrient availability, I haven't seen any evidence one way or the other this spring.


  • Options
    #34
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I used a version of it this winter. I reckon it pays for itself in terms of agitating slurry alone. The contractor agitated my tank in a few minutes this spring rather than over a few hours normally. Ads for pasture benefits with increased nutrient availability, I haven't seen any evidence one way or the other this spring.

    Was it plocher? Apparently there is a difference. Most of these products are bacteria and enzymes. Plocher is something different that no one can really fully explain how it works?


  • Options
    #35
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Was it plocher? Apparently there is a difference. Most of these products are bacteria and enzymes. Plocher is something different that no one can really fully explain how it works?
    No, not Plocher. I rang them and was quoted a rather large sum for my needs for the winter. I got other stuff from Buyrite/Magenta and was very happy with it in terms of agitation. I've no idea about N, P and K uptakes and utilisation with it until some research comes out on it.


  • Options
    #36
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Was it plocher? Apparently there is a difference. Most of these products are bacteria and enzymes. Plocher is something different that no one can really fully explain how it works?

    Seems to be mainly lime with a bit of molasses in some of their products. It doesn't say its in it but might have humic acid also but that's only a guess.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    Seems to be mainly lime with a bit of molasses in some of their products. It doesn't say its in it but might have humic acid also but that's only a guess.

    When someone won't tell you what the super dooper active in their products are, it's normally snake oil.


  • Options
    #38
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    No, not Plocher. I rang them and was quoted a rather large sum for my needs for the winter. I got other stuff from Buyrite/Magenta and was very happy with it in terms of agitation. I've no idea about N, P and K uptakes and utilisation with it until some research comes out on it.

    Yes that is a bacteria and enzyme blend. Good to know it had an effect.


  • Options
    #39
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    Waffletraktor wrote: »
    When someone won't tell you what the super dooper active in their products are, it's normally snake oil.

    Actually the person who told me was the guy who used it in Bruton college and he is not selling it .I think the words he used is that he would highly recommend it. That's why I'm just curious if anyone else has used it ?


  • Options
    #40
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    Seems to be mainly lime with a bit of molasses in some of their products. It doesn't say its in it but might have humic acid also but that's only a guess.

    Yes I have yet to find someone who can explain exactly how it might work and yet I have seen reports and spoken to at least one person who claims it does work?

    To be honest I'm a bit disappointed that having used it and being happy with it Bishop Burton college haven't gone and done proper independent trials on it.


  • Options
    #41
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Actually the person who told me was the guy who used it in Bruton college and he is not selling it .I think the words he used is that he would highly recommend it. That's why I'm just curious if anyone else has used it ?

    Recommending to someone to use a product you neither use nor understand can quickly end up going very wrong, very quickly.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Actually the person who told me was the guy who used it in Bruton college and he is not selling it .I think the words he used is that he would highly recommend it. That's why I'm just curious if anyone else has used it ?

    If he was noticing some sort of difference in the soil over and above what lime could be expected to do I'd say it was probably humic acid.
    The only thing to keep in mind is all these fairy dust type products are only really giving a benefit because something is wrong to start with


  • Options
    #43
    Waffletraktor
    Registered Users Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭Waffletraktor


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Yes I have yet to find someone who can explain exactly how it might work and yet I have seen reports and spoken to at least one person who claims it does work?

    To be honest I'm a bit disappointed that having used it and being happy with it Bishop Burton college haven't gone and done proper independent trials on it.

    Bishop burton is the equivalent of a Teagasc training farm lacking lab facilities of Cirencester or harper adams tbf.


  • Options
    #44
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    Apparently the reports coming back are of much less smell and much less agitation needed plus an increase in soil organic matter. Lime , molasses or humic acid shouldn't really that effect in such small amounts. It seams like what ever is in it is a bit of a mystery? That's assuming it works? Just wondering has anyone used it ?


  • Options
    #45
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Apparently the reports coming back are of much less smell and much less agitation needed plus an increase in soil organic matter. Lime , molasses or humic acid shouldn't really that effect in such small amounts. It seams like what ever is in it is a bit of a mystery? That's assuming it works? Just wondering has anyone used it ?

    There's other slurry additives based solely on lime. Humic acid can have an effect on soil at very low application rates, it's only really available to fungi afaik so soil would look a lot darker and more crumbly


  • Options
    #46
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    yosemitesam1 wrote: »
    There's other slurry additives based solely on lime. Humic acid can have an effect on soil at very low application rates, it's only really available to fungi afaik so soil would look a lot darker and more crumbly

    Form what I am told a bucket will treat 150 thousand gallons of slurry. So it very hard to understand how it works?


  • Options
    #47
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    https://youtu.be/08TI1RKj54g


  • Options
    #48
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    I came across this video on till v no-till in different soils and their reactions to water.



  • Options
    #49
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    Yes a lot of stuff online about rain stimulators , very interesting


  • Options
    #50
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    I have to include this then as a follow on from above.

    The Cation Exchange Capacity test on soil.


  • Options
    #51
    pedigree 6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,559 ✭✭✭pedigree 6


    As a follow on to the discussion on Organic Matter.

    A neighbouring farmer had a big problem with soil being washed off a field in the winter before last when he was grazing sheep on forage rape during heavy rainfall.
    Last winter he grew rape again and everyone thought he was going to graze it again.
    Nope! He ploughed it all into the soil and sowed spring barley.
    Winter cover crops are taking off here to improve OM in the soil.

    No point having your tillage ground like concrete.

    Continuous tillage on the same ground is only a recent practice anyway since specialization.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    A bit of reading in this. http://esdac.jrc.ec.europa.eu/content/soil-threats-europe-status-methods-drivers-and-effects-ecosystem-services


  • Options
    #53
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    Your man kind of makes a valid point https://www.farmingsecrets.com/sustainable-agriculture-not-saleable-technology-research-doesnt-get-done/?inf_contact_key=79a9306aff91e8f6dfc86079c4b80148d3bb27f0b618bb938f6fae6fe4bb039a


  • Options
    #54
    yosemitesam1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,943 ✭✭✭yosemitesam1


    Farmer Ed wrote: »
    Your man kind of makes a valid point https://www.farmingsecrets.com/sustainable-agriculture-not-saleable-technology-research-doesnt-get-done/?inf_contact_key=79a9306aff91e8f6dfc86079c4b80148d3bb27f0b618bb938f6fae6fe4bb039a

    It should be possible to carry out sustainable agri research on a shoestring budget, but there's too much of a focus on using fancy machines and methods that aren't really much good in the long-term. Teagasc is getting well over 100 million a year but you would be hard pushed to say anyone is getting value for money out of that. Huge amounts of money pissed away on stuff that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
    Have a look at the Dakota lakes research farm, originally setup by farmers.


  • Options
    #55
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    The Organic movement, when it began over 100 years ago, weren't about not using chemicals but about treating the soil as a living organism - which everyone here knows that it is.
    Persistent use of manufactured fert. is bound to have some effect in the medium to long term...it's like taking a short cut through the carbon and nitrogen cycles...arriving at 'C' without going through 'A' and 'B'.
    Healthy soil is the foundation.


  • Options
    #56
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,698 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    Interesting video on soil fertility.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



  • Options
    #57
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Interesting video on soil fertility.


    Yes it would appear that multi species swards have something to offer alright.
    very interesting results coming from UCD that could be huge for Irish farming with regard to GHG emissions. Just one problem. Not good for fertilizer sales. Just goes to show that unless some agri related industry is making money from something it can very often go unnoticed by us farmers. http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/sheep/new-grass-trials-show-a-potential-90-reduction-in-ghg-emissions-36054164.html


  • Options
    #58
    farawaygrass
    Registered Users Posts: 1,899 ✭✭✭farawaygrass


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Interesting video on soil fertility.


    He said near the end about the increasing levels of p and k on his soil-"actually they are not increasing, but they are just becoming available". So they are there but locked up. If he is freeing them up for the plant to extract, and not replacing with synthetics, then won't be soon start seeing a deficit again?


  • Options
    #59
    Farmer Ed
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,617 ✭✭✭Farmer Ed


    farawaygrass wrote: »
    He said near the end about the increasing levels of p and k on his soil-"actually they are not increasing, but they are just becoming available". So they are there but locked up. If he is freeing them up for the plant to extract, and not replacing with synthetics, then won't be soon start seeing a deficit again?

    That is a good question and depending on who you ask you could get multiple different answers. If you ask most conventional soil scientists they will probably tell you pretty much straight away. However there is a growing number who believe that the soil mineralization process can be controlled by the soils biology. This may not be mainstream thinking but it is a growing school of thought. That said Dr Kristien Nicchols form Rodale would appear to verify the results being achieved by Gabe Brown. Dr Christine Jones also seams to be thinking along the same lines in Australia and of course most controversial of all is probably Dr Elaine Ingham also in the US.

    In my opinion soil science is a lot like religion. There are a lot of well meaning people who all may have good intentions and all want to get to heaven. But there are not all in agreement as to what is the best way to achieve that. I spoke to a Dutch soil scientist earlier this year who told me she had been studying something for 30 years and still didn't fully understand it. But it is a very interesting topic.

    Joel Williams will be giving a few one day courses coming up soon in Ireland. Well worth taking a look at if interested. http://nots.ie/course_detail.php?uniqueID=195


  • Options
    #60
    patsy_mccabe
    Registered Users Posts: 10,698 ✭✭✭✭patsy_mccabe


    farawaygrass wrote: »
    He said near the end about the increasing levels of p and k on his soil-"actually they are not increasing, but they are just becoming available". So they are there but locked up. If he is freeing them up for the plant to extract, and not replacing with synthetics, then won't be soon start seeing a deficit again?

    Exactly, you can fix N from the atmosphere but where does the P and K come from. That said , plants have been growing for millennia without the use of artificial NPK fertilisers.

    'When I was a boy we were serfs, slave minded. Anyone who came along and lifted us out of that belittling, I looked on them as Gods.' - Dan Breen



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,563 ✭✭✭White Clover


    patsy_mccabe wrote: »
    Exactly, you can fix N from the atmosphere but where does the P and K come from. That said , plants have been growing for millennia without the use of artificial NPK fertilisers.

    The fertilizer and seed industries are scratching each other's backs. Ryegrasses today will not persist without huge amounts of artificial fertilizer. When they don't get all this fert, they die away and the whole process of reseeding the ryegrass starts again,
    I think the likes of herbal leys have a huge role to play on non intensively farmed land.


Advertisement