How are more people not killed on our Roads

Sittingpretty · 11-11-2018 8:07pm

[quote="Truck drivers/operators are responsible for their equipment, so if they're driving with blind spots, that is their problem to fix. They need to fit whatever extra mirrors or extra cameras or see-through doors or extra crew on watch - whatever it takes to make sure they don't kill or maim people who are rightfully and legally on the road with them.[/url][/quote]

Are you serious? Have you ever actually sat into a truck? Are you suggesting that cyclists should not have to be mindful of traffic inclusive of HGVs on our roads? To cycle ignoring the blind spot of any vehicle or to assume you are visible is suicidal.

gctest50 · 11-11-2018 8:11pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Will your little yellow sticker...

Not sticker...........

Registration Plate....... modern version of this :

gctest50 · 11-11-2018 8:18pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Will your little yellow sticker make this less likely to happen in Ireland, given that it hasn't happened in the last 15 years here?

You know well i was referring to the weight speed and potential for harm part of your post

I even included it, look...... here it is again for you :

gctest50 wrote: »

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

weight, speed and potential for harm

Chalie Alliston was doing about

14mph

when he hit and killed Kim Briggs

gctest50 · 11-11-2018 8:22pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/over-350-cyclists-treated-for-head-injuries-in-irish-hospitals-last-year-1.3615589?mode=amp

216 cyclists were discharged from Irish hospitals after being treated for head injuries in “non-collision transport accidents”.

Non-collision transport accidents

- so 216 fell off and received head injuries

how many were wearing helmets ?

AndrewJRenko · 11-11-2018 8:55pm

gctest50 wrote: »

You know well i was referring to the weight speed and potential for harm part of your post

I even included it, look...... here it is again for you :

For the 5th time, what benefits will arise from your registration system?

pablo128 · 11-11-2018 9:04pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

For the 5th time, what benefits will arise from your registration system?

Jesus Christ lad, if cyclists have a number plate they are identifiable. If a cyclist is seen breaking a red light on dashcam and reported and prosecuted, others will start to take notice. Therefore more cyclists will take a more responsible attitude to using the roads and therefore will reduce deaths and injuries.

That's just one example.

AndrewJRenko · 11-11-2018 9:12pm

pablo128 wrote: »

Jesus Christ lad, if cyclists have a number plate they are identifiable. If a cyclist is seen breaking a red light on dashcam and reported and prosecuted, others will start to take notice. Therefore more cyclists will take a more responsible attitude to using the roads and therefore will reduce deaths and injuries.

That's just one example.

So a registration system stops people from routinely breaking red lights?

https://youtu.be/Vc5VGuJvOVk

Really?

pablo128 · 11-11-2018 9:15pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So a registration system stops people from routinely breaking red lights?

https://youtu.be/Vc5VGuJvOVk

Really?

You will always have some idiots using the roads in all modes of transport. I don't need to look at a YouTube video to realise that.

MadDog76 · 11-11-2018 9:16pm

Shenshen wrote: »

How so? The point being argued is that the party capable of doing the most damage carries the most responsibility.

The/my point was Motorists and Pedestrians can take deserved criticism...... Cyclists, based on the posts/posters in this thread alone, can't.

My point has been proved by said posters......

AndrewJRenko · 11-11-2018 9:37pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

The/my point was Motorists and Pedestrians can take deserved criticism...... Cyclists, based on the posts/posters in this thread alone, can't.

My point has been proved by said posters......

Cyclists can most certainly 'take criticism', though I'm not quite sure how that helps to reduce road deaths. You can criticise cyclists all you like for all the stupid things that stupid cyclists do every day, like breaking lights, cycling without lights, pulling out looking.

The problem is that it doesn't save lives on the road. If you want to save lives on the road, you'd want to be thinking about how motorists kill 3 or 4 people every day. Cyclists are about 5% of road deaths, but you're choosing to ignore the 95% of road deaths.

pablo128 wrote: »

You will always have some idiots using the roads in all modes of transport. I don't need to look at a YouTube video to realise that.

The evidence shows that it's not just 'some idiots'. The evidence shows that 60%-80% of registered motorists break speed limits (RSA Speed Surveys). The evidence shows that 88% of red light jumpers at the Luas red light camera were registered motorists, not unregistered cyclists. The evidence shows that registered motorists in Ireland are 2nd worst in Europe for mobile phone abuse.

Law breaking by registered motorists is not 'just some idiots'. It is the vast majority. Registration doesn't stop people breaking the law.

But more importantly, given that cyclists are involved in 5% of road deaths while motorists are involved in 99% of road deaths, which group do you think we should be focusing our efforts on to reduce road deaths?

MadDog76 · 11-11-2018 11:00pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Cyclists can most certainly 'take criticism'........

LOL!!!

Shenshen · 12-11-2018 12:31am

erica74 wrote: »

Would there be more than one type of mirror to test out before writing them off? I don't understand why anyone wouldn't at least trial something that may make their road use safer.
All road users should perform a lifesaver before changing direction.

There's quite a range, the ones I tried were some of the larger ones. Still way smaller than on my motorbike, and with the handlebars a different shape than on the motorbike the angle for them was impossible.

And even on the motorbike, the mirrors give you just an idea of what may be behind you. You certainly do not get anywhere near as good an idea as with the two wing mirrors and rear mirror in your car.

When cycling, I can hear the traffic behind me. I think the reason for the mirrors on motorbikes is that you can't hear car tires through the helmet.

Shenshen · 12-11-2018 12:41am

gctest50 wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/over-350-cyclists-treated-for-head-injuries-in-irish-hospitals-last-year-1.3615589?mode=amp

216 cyclists were discharged from Irish hospitals after being treated for head injuries in “non-collision transport accidents”.

Non-collision transport accidents

- so 216 fell off and received head injuries

how many were wearing helmets ?

*raises hand*
I am one of that number.
I came off my bike while cycling down a steep hill, on a road with tall walls either side. Coming around a corner, I was suddenly facing an SUV head-on. The driver was overtaking a pedestrian on her side of the road, uphill in a blind bend.
I managed to pull the bicycle to the left and avoid her, but came in contact with the wall and fell off.
I was wearing a helmet.

Ended up in A&E to check for broken bones, but luckily only sprained a few joints.

Shenshen · 12-11-2018 12:43am

pablo128 wrote: »

Jesus Christ lad, if cyclists have a number plate they are identifiable. If a cyclist is seen breaking a red light on dashcam and reported and prosecuted, others will start to take notice. Therefore more cyclists will take a more responsible attitude to using the roads and therefore will reduce deaths and injuries.

That's just one example.

I would probably find that believable, if I didn't see on average 4 - 5 cars running red lights on my daily commute.
The fact that their registrations are showing seems to be no deterrent at all.

AndrewJRenko · 12-11-2018 12:45am

Shenshen wrote: »

I would probably find that believable, if I didn't see on average 4 - 5 cars running red lights on my daily commute.
The fact that their registrations are showing seems to be no deterrent at all.

Lucky you - only one set of lights on your commute!

Shenshen · 12-11-2018 9:32am

MadDog76 wrote: »

The/my point was Motorists and Pedestrians can take deserved criticism...... Cyclists, based on the posts/posters in this thread alone, can't.

My point has been proved by said posters......

I'm a motorist, motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian. I'm very happy to take any realistic criticism for any of these groups.

But I am keenly aware that when I'm walking or cycling, I'm responsible for my own safety. I'm the only person I can kill when I'm walking or cycling. When I'm driving or on the motorbike, I'm responsible for a lot more people at any given moment, as I can kill or seriously hurt others just by a moment's inattention.

And yes, I do see idiot cyclists every day. I also see idiot pedestrians, and seriously idiot motorcyclists.
But they usually stick to being a danger only to themselves.
What I also see is an absurd number of idiot drivers - speeding, running red lights, using roundabouts incorrectly, overtaking without having a clear view of the road ahead of them, driving on the hard shoulder to undertake traffic. Two weeks ago I saw someone driving on a cycle path to undertake a line of traffic standing at a red light. And he wasn't exactly driving slowly, either.
These people are mostly endangering others. They're cocooned inside impact bars and crumple zones and protected by airbags. What they hit may not be.

Corb_lund · 12-11-2018 9:38am

Shenshen wrote: »

I would probably find that believable, if I didn't see on average 4 - 5 cars running red lights on my daily commute.
The fact that their registrations are showing seems to be no deterrent at all.

Most red light runners are people pushing the amber/red situation where it is fairly predicable.

Most cyclists (coming from someone that commutes in on a bike) take the pìss and cycle through totally red lights.

There's idiot car drivers alright, in fact I'm going back to driving soon hopefully....but cyclists really do not help themselves..

Shenshen · 12-11-2018 9:55am

Corb_lund wrote: »

Most red light runners are people pushing the amber/red situation where it is fairly predicable.

Most cyclists (coming from someone that commutes in on a bike) take the pìss and cycle through totally red lights.

There's idiot car drivers alright, in fact I'm going back to driving soon hopefully....but cyclists really do not help themselves..

What I usually see these days is one car going through amber, and another 2 or 3 following it, going through the red light. And I see that from both ends, I'm now quite used to not being able to set off once the lights turn green, because there are still cars going across after running the red light on their side.

I don't live in Dublin, so I honestly can't say what it's like there, but I've yet to see a bicycle run a red light here. I would drive far more than I cycle, as my commute is too far and way too dangerous to cycle, unfortunately.

Irish Guitarist · 12-11-2018 10:14am

The number of drivers that don't stop at pedestrian crossings is ridiculous. Then there's the gobshites parking on footpaths (not just the edge but the entire path) so pedestrians have to walk out on the road to avoid them.

What I really don't get is how more young lads on bikes don't get killed or cause someone else an injury. You see groups of them speeding along the path here, then they just decide at a whim to fly into the road. When they get bored of that they just fly back onto the path. There's absolutely no indication of what they'll decide to do next.

AndrewJRenko · 12-11-2018 4:02pm

Corb_lund wrote: »

Shenshen wrote: »

I would probably find that believable, if I didn't see on average 4 - 5 cars running red lights on my daily commute.
The fact that their registrations are showing seems to be no deterrent at all.

Most red light runners are people pushing the amber/red situation where it is fairly predicable.

Most cyclists (coming from someone that commutes in on a bike) take the pìss and cycle through totally red lights.

There's idiot car drivers alright, in fact I'm going back to driving soon hopefully....but cyclists really do not help themselves..

'Pushing the amber /red' is breaking the law. Many drivers seem to be hugely surprised that the red light comes after abmer and indeed that the amber light comes after green.

But why the obsession with red lights when comparing law breaking cyclists with law breaking motorists. If you want to compare both, bring speeding and phone abuse into the equation for a start and see how they work out.

MadDog76 · 12-11-2018 7:16pm

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm a motorist, motorcyclist, cyclist and pedestrian. I'm very happy to take any realistic criticism for any of these groups.

But I am keenly aware that when I'm walking or cycling, I'm responsible for my own safety. I'm the only person I can kill when I'm walking or cycling. When I'm driving or on the motorbike, I'm responsible for a lot more people at any given moment, as I can kill or seriously hurt others just by a moment's inattention.

And yes, I do see idiot cyclists every day. I also see idiot pedestrians, and seriously idiot motorcyclists.
But they usually stick to being a danger only to themselves.
What I also see is an absurd number of idiot drivers - speeding, running red lights, using roundabouts incorrectly, overtaking without having a clear view of the road ahead of them, driving on the hard shoulder to undertake traffic. Two weeks ago I saw someone driving on a cycle path to undertake a line of traffic standing at a red light. And he wasn't exactly driving slowly, either.
These people are mostly endangering others. They're cocooned inside impact bars and crumple zones and protected by airbags. What they hit may not be.

You won't find me defending idiot Motorists or Pedestrians........ criticise idiot Cyclists and you'll be met with "but but but...... the Motorists"...... if you haven't seen that on this thread, and this site as a whole, you're either blind or in denial.

AndrewJRenko · 12-11-2018 9:40pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

You won't find me defending idiot Motorists or Pedestrians........ criticise idiot Cyclists and you'll be met with "but but but...... the Motorists"...... if you haven't seen that on this thread, and this site as a whole, you're either blind or in denial.

It's just a bit more subtle than that.

Criticising cyclists is fair game. Loads of cyclists do stupid stuff all the time.

Suggesting that 'fixing' cyclists or cycling is a significant road safety priority, and you'll definitely be met with the 'but but but the evidence'. It is the data that tells you that cyclists aren't killing 3 or 4 people each week.

MadDog76 · 12-11-2018 10:01pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

It's just a bit more subtle than that.

Criticising cyclists is fair game. Loads of cyclists do stupid stuff all the time.

Suggesting that 'fixing' cyclists or cycling is a significant road safety priority, and you'll definitely be met with the 'but but but the evidence'. It is the data that tells you that cyclists aren't killing 3 or 4 people each week.

You've missed my point completely, it's gone way over your head...... as an aside, based on your post here alone, you've actually missed the point of this whole thread in it's entirety.

I'll give you a hint to help you figure out where you've gotten lost...... read the thread title again and remember that it's NOT a Cyclists versus Motorists thread...... good luck!

AndrewJRenko · 12-11-2018 10:05pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

You've missed my point completely, it's gone way over your head...... as an aside, based on your post here alone, you've actually missed the point of this whole thread in it's entirety.

I'll give you a hint to help you figure out where you've gotten lost...... read the thread title again and remember that it's NOT a Cyclists versus Motorists thread...... good luck!

Funnily enough, I'm one of the few people who've actually got the point of the thread - which is 'deaths on the road'.

Any talk about cyclist behaviour or helmets or hi-vis or the usual oul guff is a drop in the ocean if we're dealing with deaths on the road.

If we really want to reduce deaths on the road, we need to get drivers to slow down and put their phones down. But I guess some people aren't yet ready to face up to that inconvenient truth.

MadDog76 · 12-11-2018 11:10pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Funnily enough, I'm one of the few people who've actually got the point of the thread - which is 'deaths on the road'.

Any talk about cyclist behaviour or helmets or hi-vis or the usual oul guff is a drop in the ocean if we're dealing with deaths on the road.

If we really want to reduce deaths on the road, we need to get drivers to slow down and put their phones down. But I guess some people aren't yet ready to face up to that inconvenient truth.

Funnily enough, the thread is about quite the opposite...... the question isn't about reducing deaths on the roads, it's asking why, all factors considered, aren't there MORE deaths on the road. It's literally in the thread title, which I politely and helpfully asked you to read...... I get the impression, from your posts, that you just see/read things the way you want to see them.

AndrewJRenko · 14-11-2018 10:53pm

MadDog76 wrote: »

Funnily enough, the thread is about quite the opposite...... the question isn't about reducing deaths on the roads, it's asking why, all factors considered, aren't there MORE deaths on the road. It's literally in the thread title.

Yes, you got me there - it is literally in the thread title.

And if you go back to my statement, I literally said that the point of the thread is "deaths on the road" - so I got it right, right?

When I asked the slightly rhetorical question about reducing deaths on the road, I just assumed that most people would be keen on reducing deaths on the road. Are you keen on reducing deaths on the road? If so, you're looking in the wrong place if you're chasing cyclists. And no, I don't mean that literally.

imme · 14-11-2018 11:16pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Murder isn't really appropriate here as it implies premeditation. Motorists do kill three or four people each week here, but they don't murder them.

Cyclists certainly should be respectful of pedestrians indeed, though let's not exaggerate the dangers to pedestrians from cyclists. Motorists kill about one pedestrian each week on the roads on average, just for context. I've never seen any study that shows injuries caused to pedestrians by cyclists are a significant issue - have you?

And yes, vice versa is important too. One cyclist was killed as the result of the actions of a pedestrian in the Phoenix Park in recent years.

Great that you managed to see all these 'invisible' cyclists! Certainly, it's not clever or legal to be cycling without lights after dark, but let's not over-exaggerate the risk.

All but one of the relatively low number of cyclists killed on the roads last year were killed in daylight. I can't recall any case of cyclist death resulting from lack of lights in living memory, can you?

And let's not miss the significant number of motorists out there with one broken headlight, or one or two broken brake lights, or no back lights at all because they don't know how their DRLs work.

If a cyclist is cycling during lighting up time they need lights, legally and in order to save their lives and to save the nerves of other road users.

5 cyclists in a row went past me last night all without lights, none with any matter of reflective clothing, that is asking for trouble and giving a headache to all other road users.

They should have their bikes taken off them until they produce lights at least.

One can buy a set of bike lights for €10.

A broken brake light does not come onto the same scale as no lights on a bike.

AndrewJRenko · 14-11-2018 11:31pm

imme wrote: »

They should have their bikes taken off them until they produce lights at least.

Same approach for the four out of five drivers that break speed limits? They should have their cars impounded until they learn to slow down?

Or do we just turn a blind eye to one of the major causes of deaths on the road?

John_Rambo · 14-11-2018 11:40pm

In 2017 there were 157 tragic fatalities.

There were 66 car Drivers killed in their cars.

There were 26 car Passengers killed in cars.

There were 30 Pedestrians killed by cars

There were 20 Motorcyclists killed

There were 15 Pedal Cyclists killed by mostly by cars.

Of the 15 cyclist killed by cars 13 were in broad daylight.

Luas operator Transdev show drivers in 2018 have hit the brakes;

266 times to avoid cars in the tram’s path

223 times to avoid pedestrians in the tram’s path

61 times to avoid cyclists in the tram’s path.

imme · 14-11-2018 11:41pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Same approach for the four out of five drivers that break speed limits? They should have their cars impounded until they learn to slow down?

Or do we just turn a blind eye to one of the major causes of deaths on the road?

4 out of 5, is that in urban areas or rural areas, 1 km over the limit or 29 over the limit.
Is there a source for that.

There are enough measures in place to deal with speeding of vehicular traffic imo.

Cycling without lights and wearing dark clothing and no luminous clothing is asking for trouble, a death wish, apart from being illegal.

How are more people not killed on our Roads

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