Playoffs 2012

Hazys · 22-01-2013 7:24pm

Rochey18 wrote: »

You are saying you would have Welker ahead of Calvin Johnson???

Also your post is a contradiction, everyone agrees Welker is a good route runner, but you clearly said Stafford targets Johnson, which is correct and defenders still cant stop him. Defences have to account for Gronk, Hernandez Lloyd and Welker

I dont understand this point.

Welker still gets more catches than Johnson even tho Johnson is basically the sole target of the Lions' offense and Welker has to contend with Gronk, Hernandez and Lloyd for catches.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:27pm

Hazys wrote: »

I dont understand this point.

Welker still gets more catches than Johnson even tho Johnson is basically the sole target of the Lions' offense and Welker has to contend with Gronk, Hernandez and Lloyd for catches.

The second part of that just isnt true. Stafford threw the ball 100 times more then Brady and the balls throw to all the receivers are pretty similar.

Also Johnson average 5 yards more per catch.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:30pm

Remember Stafford threw the ball 100 times more.
Also to compare Calvin and Welker as WR is like Apple and Orange.

Targeted
Welker 174
Lloyd 130
Gronk 79
Hernandez 84
Woodhead 55

Calvin 205
Pettigrew 100
Schffler 84
Bell 68
Young 56

Hazys · 22-01-2013 7:49pm

Rochey18 wrote: »

Remember Stafford threw the ball 100 times more.
Also to compare Calvin and Welker as WR is like Apple and Orange.

Targeted
Welker 174
Lloyd 130
Gronk 79
Hernandez 84
Woodhead 55

Calvin 205
Pettigrew 100
Schffler 84
Bell 68
Young 56

I don't understand how the targeted numbers prove that the Lion's other receivers are same caliber as the Patriots. Stats can be extremely misleading and can be used to prove anything.

There is a lot of times Welker is open but because Gronk or Hernandez is also open, the pass goes to Gronk or Hernandez hurting Welker's numbers.

On the other side, there would be times when all Lion's WRs are covered (including Johnson) and Stafford just flings it to Johnson boosting his numbers.

I agree with you that it's a bit crazy to compare Welker and Johnson because even tho they are both WRs, they are completely different football players. At the end of the day, when saying who is better has a lot to do with personal preference.

BTW, i think Johnson is a better WR but Welker is around the Top 5 mark in the NFL.

Justin10 · 22-01-2013 7:57pm

The target stat is to show the ball is clearly spread around the offense as much as New England.

It is indeed crazy to compare the two but it's ridiculous to claim welker is better.

I'm sure he is top 10 in 99% in people's mind. Just depends where on that list to personal preference. To be he would be low enough

DBBacker · 22-01-2013 8:02pm

matthew8 wrote: »

I wouldn't count Welker as a top 5, but I'd find it seriously hard to even put him out of the top 10, let alone 20. He's also very valuable as a returner (like Harvin).

I rarely defend any Pats players or the organization itself being from New York but I am very interested to see what 20 Wide Receivers you would have ahead of Wes Welker. On average every season in the NFL between 20-25 Receivers have over 1000 yards in the season and Welker is always within the Top 15 of these. Welker has only failed to do this once as a regular starter with the Patriots in 6 seasons. Add the amount of catches he has consistently made and difference he makes as a slot to the Patriots it is hard to say he is not Top 10 never mind Top 20.

Pains me to say it that Wes Welker is one of the best Receivers in the NFL and probably the best slot in the NFL at the moment. Do I think he is top 5? I don't. Do I think he is top 10? Of course he is not questions asked.

davyjose · 22-01-2013 8:42pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Most of this post makes little sense to me. I never said he wasn't important, just not the most important. I'd consider guys who get more yards and points to be more important than a guy who gets more catches tbh. Not sure how you are not buying my logic, look at the numbers Welker has had - one season where he has been top 10 in TDs in the NFL, zero where he was top 5.

The argument is getting quite convoluted.

Let me clarify:
If I was building a franchise tomorrow, and I had the pick of any players in the NFL, under my Wide Receivers column, Welker would be in the top 5.

Is he better than Calvin Johnson? No. No way. But comparing end zone stats is silly because Welker isn't a big endzone target. It's not where he excels.

Morrisseeee · 22-01-2013 8:57pm

Q. Who had the better season, Manning or Brady ?
/I know, I know, it's a loaded gun, so......think about your answers before 'ranting/raving'

A_Sober_Paddy · 22-01-2013 9:05pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Q. Who had the better season, Manning or Brady ?
/I know, I know, it's a loaded gun, so......think about your answers before 'ranting/raving'

Manning, when you consider he was out all last year and he joined a new team this year and had a fantastic season

Hazys · 22-01-2013 9:28pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Q. Who had the better season, Manning or Brady ?
/I know, I know, it's a loaded gun, so......think about your answers before 'ranting/raving'

Meh, mostly the same. Both we're pretty good in the regular season, both will be very disappointed with losing in the playoffs.

TBH who cares? when we have the greatest of all time debate between the two, i doubt either camp will be using this season as part of their arguments.

Ares · 22-01-2013 10:13pm

Hazys wrote: »

Its a silly argument. Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker are completely different WRs. It's all about your definition of WR and what scheme an offense runs. Trying to find a common ground for WR to provide a ranking is highly objective. Welker is by far the best 'Slot' receiver while Johnson is the best 'Prototype' receiver. How you rank depends on how much you personally value the importance of a prototype WR over a Slot WR and vica versa.

Welker can do a lot of things Johnson can't do and Johnson can do a lot of what Welker can't do.

I disagree. Johnson often lines up in the slot and plays some of his best stuff there. The amount of times Calvin runs over the middle for 8-15 yards is ridiculous. He's a brilliant slot reciever.

There is a lot of things Welker can't do that Calvin can, but there are few things that Welker can do that Calvin can't also do.

Son Of A Vidic · 22-01-2013 10:21pm

Fair play John..

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000129368/article/john-harbaugh-bill-belichick-was-classy-after-game

Harbaugh went out of his way to compliment Bill Belichick for what the Patriots coach said during their postgame conversation.

"Coach Belichick after the game was so classy with what he said," Harbaugh said. This is the second time Harbaugh went out of his way to mention the conversation. It's an interesting counterpart to the criticism that Belichick has taken for his usual postgame interview no-show with CBS.

"I'll treasure that conversation forever," Harbaugh told SI.com's Peter King. "Before the game, we talked, and he said maybe we should just skip the postgame handshake because it's such a circus. I said I didn't know; I thought we should do it, it's just the right thing to do. And we did."

"He was so classy, so gracious. Complimentary about how we played, about our game plan, about how tough it is to play us. I told him how much we pattern our organization around theirs, how much we study them."

adrian522 · 22-01-2013 10:23pm

John?

D3PO · 22-01-2013 10:25pm

Lads all this top 5 top 10 stuff is crap.

You cant compare an X or Y reciever with each other. Thats like arguing whos a better DE and comparing 3-4 and 4-3 guys you cant you just cant do so objectively.

Welker is the top Y reciever in the NFL right now. The only one that I think is even close to him is Amendola. I believe he could potentially put up Welker type numbers int he Pats offense if he stayed healthy but theres no other reciever in the league I think could do so in the slot.

Son Of A Vidic · 22-01-2013 10:38pm

adrian522 wrote: »

John?

Ya that's who I meant.

Anyway, Jim or John, John or Jim, it's the same person/doppelganger.:D

Morrisseeee · 23-01-2013 10:17am

Hazys wrote: »

when we have the greatest of all time debate between the two, i doubt either camp will be using this season as part of their arguments.

Actually that's what I was targeting the debate at, ie. does this season (& playoffs) have a say in the overall debate between the two. I think it does.

Consider the situation both were in this season, Manning (injury/new-team) considered for MVP, leads his team to 13-3 (No. 1 seeds) and in the playoff game led his team to a 7pt lead with a minute left (also throwing for 3 TDs). He made one mistake, the Int that effectively ended the game.

Consider Brady, with the same team, same set-up for the last gazillion years, had a good season, and No. 2 seeds, but failed badly in the playoff game against the Ravens.

If we use that Ravens defense as a barometer, then Brady looks even worse.

Ok ok, it looks like I'm Brady-bashing, but I think I'm just trying to figure out why he hasn't delivered in the last 7 seasons, especially this season with the No. 1 offense in the NFL.

I'm also asking myself if Brady was in Manning's situation would he have delivered the same results ? and as a follow on from that: how would he perform without Belichick, would his be a better QB or worse ?

I'll summarize and say that I think Manning (after this season) has edged slightly ahead in the overall debate between the two.

BizzyC · 23-01-2013 11:04am

Manning had the no.2 defense in football to help him out.

It's been the same with the Patriots the past 7 seasons, they get beat when they face a team with a tough defense in the playoffs.

The Pats D cant stop anyone, which means Brady has to continuously air the ball out, which will get shut down when playing a top D.
Asking someone to put up 30+ point every single week, otherwise your team loses, is a lot to ask in the NFL.

Hidalgo · 23-01-2013 11:04am

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Actually that's what I was targeting the debate at, ie. does this season (& playoffs) have a say in the overall debate between the two. I think it does.

Consider the situation both were in this season, Manning (injury/new-team) considered for MVP, leads his team to 13-3 (No. 1 seeds) and in the playoff game led his team to a 7pt lead with a minute left (also throwing for 3 TDs). He made one mistake, the Int that effectively ended the game.

Consider Brady, with the same team, same set-up for the last gazillion years, had a good season, and No. 2 seeds, but failed badly in the playoff game against the Ravens.

If we use that Ravens defense as a barometer, then Brady looks even worse.

Ok ok, it looks like I'm Brady-bashing, but I think I'm just trying to figure out why he hasn't delivered in the last 7 seasons, especially this season with the No. 1 offense in the NFL.
I'm also asking myself if Brady was in Manning's situation would he have delivered the same results ? and as a follow on from that: how would he perform without Belichick, would his be a better QB or worse ?

I'll summarize and say that I think Manning (after this season) has edged slightly ahead in the overall debate between the two.

Did manning not throw 2 interceptions V the Ravens with 14 pts coming from them??

IMO Manning has had a better season, coming back from neck injury and fitting into a new team. Even if he hadn't been out injured, the way he seamlessly fitted into a new team was very good

mongoman · 23-01-2013 11:32am

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Consider Brady, with the same team, same set-up for the last gazillion years,

Wha? Same team? No it's not the same team. They had a virtual new O line installed this season when they lost some key players. Now I'm sure Pats fans can offer more detail there. The only thing that probably hasn't changed is their shyte secondary. You blaming Brady for that? Their secondary cost them the game, is that Brady's fault? When I seen Talib going out, i knew they were f****d.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

Ok ok, it looks like I'm Brady-bashing,

It doesn't 'look' like anything, you are.

Morrisseeee wrote: »

but I think I'm just trying to figure out why he hasn't delivered in the last 7 seasons, especially this season with the No. 1 offense in the NFL.

Of course Brady has had nothing to do with it being the number 1 offence in the league. And year in year out, it consistently is a top offense :rolleyes:

Morrisseeee wrote: »

I'm also asking myself if Brady was in Manning's situation would he have delivered the same results ?

What results?

Morrisseeee wrote: »

I'll summarize and say that I think Manning (after this season) has edged slightly ahead in the overall debate between the two.

As he loses yet another play off game and Brady breaks more records, like most play-off wins in history and most post season passing yards ect. As a 49'ers fan, I never thought I'd see anyone overtake my beloved Joe Montana's phenomenal record. Give me Brady any day over Kaepernick.

Brady and Manning will go down amongst the greatest QB's to ever play the game. Just get over your Brady hate ffs, I and most people are getting tired of reading this shít.

Morrisseeee · 23-01-2013 12:28pm

The Broncos D in the playoff game went from no. 2 to no. 32, so Peyton had no help there, in fact the D practically handed the game to the Ravens, on the other hand the Pats D played as good as the could against the Ravens, there weren't many 'easy' TD scores. Yes I take your point that in the regular season our D played well but still our offense put up a nice overall avg no. of points.

Manning threw one Int that led to 7pts not 14, and that was a tip, many balls are tipped and it's just unfortunate/fortunate if it's run in for a TD.

>> not fair mongoman, I pointed out that I'm NOT a Brady hater, actually when both QB's were in their prime I wasn't a huge fan of either, I had massive respect for both, but found it hard to determine if one was greater than the other. I think after this season I have a new perspective, Manning's value went up, Brady's went down.

Morrisseeee · 23-01-2013 12:36pm

mongoman wrote: »

As a 49'ers fan, I never thought I'd see anyone overtake my beloved Joe Montana's phenomenal record. Give me Brady any day over Kaepernick.
.

OK can I ask you to pick between Brady & Montana ?!
Did Montana benefit from a better overall team, and is this the reason that Brady hasn't won more SB's ?

mongoman · 23-01-2013 12:54pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

OK can I ask you to pick between Brady & Montana ?!
Did Montana benefit from a better overall team, and is this the reason that Brady hasn't won more SB's ?

Brady never had the quality of receivers that Joe had. I think if he had, he'd no doubt have a few more rings added. In this era of free agency and the franchise cap Brady's achievements are phenomenal. Joe never had to play with those restrictions or handicaps. At the moment I can't separate them, but i think when Brady does retire, he'll probably stand alone at the top. That won't bother me because Brady was a niners fan growing up and idolised Montana.

Lothaar v2 · 23-01-2013 1:03pm

mongoman wrote: »

Brady never had the quality of receivers that Joe had. I think if he had, he'd no doubt have a few more rings added. In this era of free agency and the franchise cap Brady's achievements are phenomenal. Joe never had to play with those restrictions or handicaps. At the moment I can't separate them, but i think when Brady does retire, he'll probably stand alone at the top.

Hi mongoman - I just got off the phone with the 49ers. They said you're cut. Find a new team to support.

Sorry about that, dude.

walshb · 23-01-2013 2:28pm

Morrisseeee wrote: »

OK can I ask you to pick between Brady & Montana ?!
Did Montana benefit from a better overall team, and is this the reason that Brady hasn't won more SB's ?

Very little to separate them. Different eras. Both were excpetional. I guess the Brady fans can use stats more than the Joe fans. But the Joe fans can use the pressure factor, big game wins, drives and ice cold under pressure. No interceptions in 4 bowls with over 120 passes. I think Tom has/had only ONE interception in over 150 passes in 4 super bowl finals. That is awesome. Too many variables to make a decision. I am a Joe fan. He got me into the game. I will select him ever so slightly. He instills a little more confidence in me. If I was amanager in a big game he would be the man for me. All things equal I would pick him.

I gues the best way would be to be magically put Joe to the NE team from the noughties and put Tom into the 80s SF team and see how they fare.

For anyone to be certain as to who was better seems off to me. It's too close and difficult to call.

23-01-2013 3:36pm

Bradys one of the best ever but I think the fact that he's not won a sb in 8-9 years will affect him big time once he retires (unless he wins another obviously) the 1 record people keep bringing up with Montana is his 100% sb record Brady doesn't have that and frankly I think he's not the same as he was under pressure and this sport values clutch more than most

He is a top 5 qb of all time and deserves to be in convoys with these guys but I think once he retires people will hold this against him

matthew8 · 23-01-2013 3:50pm

Otto Graham for GOAT. 10 year career, 10 championship games (4 in AAFC, won 4, 6 in NFL, won 3).

davyjose · 23-01-2013 4:55pm

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

Hi mongoman - I just got off the phone with the 49ers. They said you're cut. Find a new team to support.

Sorry about that, dude.

This dude who walked out when his 49ers were losing last week.

He's an abusive poster and a troll. I wouldn't pay much heed to him.

adrian522 · 23-01-2013 5:01pm

I don't agree that he's an abusive poster or a troll. If you think his posts are abusive use the report post function.

davyjose · 23-01-2013 5:24pm

adrian522 wrote: »

I don't agree that he's an abusive poster or a troll. If you think his posts are abusive use the report post function.

I think, a very recent example, was his response to Morrissee, which was combative and rude. Look, nothing against the guy, but when every secod post is an unnecessary argument because somebody doesn't worship at the altar of Tom Brady, it gets tiresome. This forum doesn't have much of the inner feuding that other sports forums on boards.ie have. And I'd prefer it stayed that way.

Maybe it's a clash of personalities. I'll just keep him on ignore, and try not to get curious, when two people in the space of 10 posts take issue with him.

adrian522 · 23-01-2013 5:34pm

davyjose wrote: »

I think, a very recent example, was his response to Morrissee, which was combative and rude. Look, nothing against the guy, but when every secod post is an unnecessary argument because somebody doesn't worship at the altar of Tom Brady, it gets tiresome. This forum doesn't have much of the inner feuding that other sports forums on boards.ie have. And I'd prefer it stayed that way.

Maybe it's a clash of personalities. I'll just keep him on ignore, and try not to get curious, when two people in the space of 10 posts take issue with him.

Fair enough, I'd assumed Lothaar's post was tongue in cheek for him taking Brady over Montana(while being a 49ers fan).

Lothaar v2 · 23-01-2013 6:03pm

adrian522 wrote: »

Fair enough, I'd assumed Lothaar's post was tongue in cheek for him taking Brady over Montana(while being a 49ers fan).

I'm pretty sure I'm not the one davyjose was calling a troll.

adrian522 · 23-01-2013 6:07pm

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I'm not the one davyjose was calling a troll.

No, mongoman I believe.

Son Of A Vidic · 23-01-2013 7:02pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Pretty sure mongoman is Giselle actually. Cos I don't think their is anyone else in the world who wants brady's cock instead them as much as mongoman does.

Chucky that's not even funny and totally necessary.

adrian522 wrote: »

I don't agree that he's an abusive poster or a troll. If you think his posts are abusive use the report post function.

I agree.

Place is full of accusations today, yet I see many fly-by-nights pop into the forum, stir up some shít amongst regulars and then disappear. Yet not an accusation is uttered against them.

davyjose · 23-01-2013 10:15pm

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Chucky that's not even funny and totally necessary.

Was this post deleted? Cos I want to thank it. Then open ten more accounts just to thank it some more!

I wish I found it funny, but I get irked by someone who constantly attacks others' posts (usually well-respected long-term posters) without actually backing up their argument with any substance. Then claims to be a fan of one team, even though they don't bother to watch their playoff games, meanwhile they display untold affection for another team. It's fcuking weird as fcuk. And I wish I was perfect enough to ignore it, but I'm not. Sorry!

davyjose · 23-01-2013 10:20pm

Lothaar v2 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I'm not the one davyjose was calling a troll.

Absolutely was not. Couldn't agree more with you.

spiralism · 24-01-2013 12:07pm

Bit ridiculous imo that someone who purports to support another team could take even mild criticism of Brady and the Pats so poorly. I mean if it was one of the many Pats regulars here i'd understand it but why kid yourself? I mean, i know the stats hammer any argument i could make but the notion of me taking Brady over John Elway amounts to blasphemy in my book! Likewise, i'd be perfectly happy with a starting QB who with 9 starts under his belt has his team in their first Superbowl in 17 years and broke a playoff record without worshipping at the altar of another teams QB..

Morrisseeee · 24-01-2013 3:42pm

To be fair I wouldn't have called it an 'attack', but it definitely was 'strange' !!
Personally I had no problem with it, I have seen worse :pac:

Maybe this might explain his unique situation:

mongoman wrote:

No, I'm a 49'ers fan who grew up in the golden Montana era. Still a fan, but I don't really care for the current team and their style of play. I have great admiration for Brady because he reminds me of Montana and what he has achieved down the years. I just can't stand irrational haters

...........what about irrational lovers :pac:
.
.

Masked Man · 24-01-2013 4:17pm

Tom Brady fined 10k for the slide.

Frank Gore fined 10.5k for this:

Playoffs 2012

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