Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

yewtree · 23-10-2019 12:02pm

The solutions to this are inside the farm gate blaming teagasc or anyone else in nonsense. Dairy farms will have to reduce the amount of low value calves they produce, rear calves for longer and take less for the calves but none of that will cause any farms to go out of buisness. Its small change in the larger scheme of things.
Expansion of the dairy herd is down to economics. Dairy cows are the only viable livestock enterprise. If you look on the mart price thread you would have to say the suckler cow is at the end of the road.
Say what you want about xbred cows but at least they dont need hand out after hand out to just about break even.

mahoney_j · 23-10-2019 12:45pm

yewtree wrote: »

The solutions to this are inside the farm gate blaming teagasc or anyone else in nonsense. Dairy farms will have to reduce the amount of low value calves they produce, rear calves for longer and take less for the calves but none of that will cause any farms to go out of buisness. Its small change in the larger scheme of things.
Expansion of the dairy herd is down to economics. Dairy cows are the only viable livestock enterprise. If you look on the mart price thread you would have to say the suckler cow is at the end of the road.
Say what you want about xbred cows but at least they dont need hand out after hand out to just about break even.

Tegasc promoted and shoved expansion and x bred ainmals on us ad lib they have to be accountable ,pat dillon came out last night hands up and said little to no consideration was given to calves ,fair play to him but then he also said expansion will continue to be promoted ,ffs Lawrence shallo fobbed off a question I asked at moorepark this year as to what orvwhere all this extra milk will go this is from a leading advisor in our leading state advisory body .
I’m sick of hearing from ornua ,tegasc ,coops as to our hive advantage from grass fed milk ,our premium products ,kerrygold brand .products are premium but our price in cent per liter or kgms nowhere near reflects it especially when u look to continent where Dutch /French etc farmers are receiving 4/5/6 cent a liter for what were been led to believe is an inferior product from cows in sheds
Producing low value calves is only some of the problem ,sexed semen is been held as a chink of light or a solution it still won’t solve the actual calf number problem .next spring is going to be very interesting only so many calves can be exported and if were honest the day of exporting young calves is numbered ,what beef man is going to buy and rear calves with that industry in tatters .lots of calves will go for kebabs we gave years building our clean green image young calves going that route dosnt exactly fit the image
Last statement re x bred cows not needing hand out after hand out not exactly true

jaymla627 · 23-10-2019 12:56pm

yewtree wrote: »

The solutions to this are inside the farm gate blaming teagasc or anyone else in nonsense. Dairy farms will have to reduce the amount of low value calves they produce, rear calves for longer and take less for the calves but none of that will cause any farms to go out of buisness. Its small change in the larger scheme of things.
Expansion of the dairy herd is down to economics. Dairy cows are the only viable livestock enterprise. If you look on the mart price thread you would have to say the suckler cow is at the end of the road.
Say what you want about xbred cows but at least they dont need hand out after hand out to just about break even.

Any dairy farmer that has drawn down a tams grant has got a handout to be fair, why this money isn't been redirected into supports for the beef sector our towards grants for renewable energy incentives from agriculture is baffling

yewtree · 23-10-2019 12:59pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Tegasc promoted and shoved expansion and x bred ainmals on us ad lib they have to be accountable ,pat dillon came out last night hands up and said little to no consideration was given to calves ,fair play to him but then he also said expansion will continue to be promoted ,ffs Lawrence shallo fobbed off a question I asked at moorepark this year as to what orvwhere all this extra milk will go this is from a leading advisor in our leading state advisory body .
I’m sick of hearing from ornua ,tegasc ,coops as to our hive advantage from grass fed milk ,our premium products ,kerrygold brand .products are premium but our price in cent per liter or kgms nowhere near reflects it especially when u look to continent where Dutch /French etc farmers are receiving 4/5/6 cent a liter for what were been led to believe is an inferior product from cows in sheds
Producing low value calves is only some of the problem ,sexed semen is been held as a chink of light or a solution it still won’t solve the actual calf number problem .next spring is going to be very interesting only so many calves can be exported and if were honest the day of exporting young calves is numbered ,what beef man is going to buy and rear calves with that industry in tatters .lots of calves will go for kebabs we gave years building our clean green image young calves going that route dosnt exactly fit the image
Last statement re x bred cows not needing hand out after hand out not exactly true

All fair enough points.
But what options are there for lads who want to increase income on their farms.
There are a few lads in my DG who have doubled cow numbers all did it so a second family member could make a living on the farm. Most got rid of beef and sheep to make room for more cows.
If beef farming was viable there would have been a lot less dairy expansion.

mahoney_j · 23-10-2019 1:05pm

yewtree wrote: »

All fair enough points.
But what options are there for lads who want to increase income on their farms.
There are a few lads in my DG who have doubled cow numbers all did it so a second family member could make a living on the farm. Most got rid of beef and sheep to make room for more cows.
If beef farming was viable there would have been a lot less dairy expansion.

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

Panch18 · 23-10-2019 1:30pm

Siamsa Sessions wrote: »

The whole thing is a mess but I genuinely hope someone responsible in the Dept takes the time to read this thread. You can see the honestly held views fellas have, presented in plain language, and some obvious home-truths that nobody in the Dept, Teagasc, Bord Bia, ABP, Tesco, etc. ever wanted to admit.

The main problem as ever is that Officialdom will look to the same old faces for solutions, rather than reading the likes of this thread to get a real sense of the issue and then pick up on some of the options thrown out here. But what are the chances they will take advice from people who wear wellingtons?

IF you think that this thread is some kind of bible for this then you are sadly mistaken

It is blindingly obvious that certain posters are posting an agenda to suit themselves and putting out statements as gospel.

_Brian · 23-10-2019 1:31pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

In what way ??

If beef from the dairy wasn’t marketable it wouldn’t have made any difference.
If it’s competing and hurting suckler reared beef maybe there is a message in there.

Long before dairy expansion there were a shocking amount of non viable suckler farms. Their day was numbered anyway.

I know lads love suckler herds but there is no god given right to push on with a non profitable model because it’s what you’ve always done and sher aren’t they nice to look at in the fields compared to Fr or HEx sucks.

Newsflash, the consumer cares less what animal their beef comes from. Yes live export customers like continental stock but that Avenue is on borrowed time anyway.

wrangler · 23-10-2019 1:37pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

You couldn't recommend anyone to do any beef enterprise for over ten years now, you couldn't recommend tillage or sheep either. dairying was the buzzword because there was nothing else viable if you wanted to farm.
It's more that sucklers fell under a bus because of the persistent reduction of beef price and subsidies which teagasc, govt, etc have no control of

Panch18 · 23-10-2019 1:38pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

Sucklers was always a dead end game - they only made sense when there was a suckler quota and an era of high premia on a per head basis. That's why the number of suckler cows grew dratically in the 90's. What we are seeing now is a correction of that artificial inflation in numbers

I don't think they were thrown under a bus - its just that reality is starting to bite now

patsy_mccabe · 23-10-2019 2:12pm

Selling FR weanlings at €235 in autumn is hardly profitable is it?
I saw it with my own eyes.

whelan2 · 23-10-2019 2:20pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Selling FR weanlings at €235 in autumn is hardly profitable is it?
I saw it with my own eyes.

I'd say it is ,as the seller would be glad to see the back of them. Never bring anything back home from the mart even if you are getting the worst price

K.G. · 23-10-2019 2:22pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Selling FR weanlings at €235 in autumn is hardly profitable is it?
I saw it with my own eyes.

Depends on the value uou put on the calf .what would hd bull bucket fed weanling make today that was bought for 150.fellas often tell me the most profitable animals thay they buy are fr.to be fair it all depends on the animal.

Muckit · 23-10-2019 2:22pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Selling FR weanlings at €235 in autumn is hardly profitable is it?
I saw it with my own eyes.

Ah now, don't be asking questions you already know the answer to!!

I don't know is weanling the correct term if they didn't come off a cow's teat.

Siamsa Sessions · 23-10-2019 3:12pm

Panch18 wrote: »

IF you think that this thread is some kind of bible for this then you are sadly mistaken

It is blindingly obvious that certain posters are posting an agenda to suit themselves and putting out statements as gospel.

I assume you're right but the first-hand experience in this thread, whatever agenda you have, is what's lacking in the carpeted rooms where big decisions are made.

Timmaay · 23-10-2019 3:17pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

You could argue many dairyfarmers got totally thrown under the bus when quotes came in back in the 80s, and the expansion since 2015 is only natural. I'd also argue many dairyfarmers got thrown under the bus in terms of the CAP, there are beef farmers still to this date living off reference years when the beef farmer came out a lot better than many dairyfarmers. Also in terms of TAMS, largely the same investments are available to both dairy, sheep and beef farmers, however by its nature dairying requires more investment than beef or sheep.

Bass Reeves · 23-10-2019 3:25pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Selling FR weanlings at €235 in autumn is hardly profitable is it?
I saw it with my own eyes.

Selling any animal in the Autumn is a struggle to make money in an average year not to mind a bad one. There is only 3 real profitable times to sell as Friesian, as a calf as a really forward store ideally as a two year old in the spring or when you hand him on the hook. Other than that you are at the devil's mercy or worse Bass's

Bass Reeves · 23-10-2019 3:30pm

Panch18 wrote: »

IF you think that this thread is some kind of bible for this then you are sadly mistaken

It is blindingly obvious that certain posters are posting an agenda to suit themselves and putting out statements as gospel.

What agenda have certain posters. Spell it out, there is no point in making a throw away statement like this. Either you have an opinion on it it not. If you think any lads is making untrue assumptions point out what is incorrect do not hide behind throwaway statement's.

patsy_mccabe · 23-10-2019 3:48pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Selling any animal in the Autumn is a struggle to make money in an average year not to mind a bad one. There is only 3 real profitable times to sell as Friesian, as a calf as a really forward store ideally as a two year old in the spring or when you hand him on the hook. Other than that you are at the devil's mercy or worse Bass's

Well if lads don't make money selling a certian type of animal, they won't stick to that system. That will level things out over time. It's said here enough times, but everone has to make a few shillings along the way. If only one person can make money along the way by buying value.......well that aint sustainable longterm.

_Brian · 23-10-2019 4:07pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well if lads don't make money selling a certian type of animal, they won't stick to that system.

Surely you realise the lads out every autumn selling weanlings for €€6-700 are loosing money year after year but keep doing it.

Literally only the top 1/3 of suckler farms make any profit. That leaves allot of lads who keep on doing the same thing over and over and over. They’re sticking to it.

patsy_mccabe · 23-10-2019 4:22pm

I couldn't keep farming if I wasn't making a profit. What's the point? Farm here always shows a profit. It might be a small one at times and I might have to work hard to show one, but I'd stop if I was showing a loss.

dh1985 · 23-10-2019 8:09pm

yewtree wrote: »

The solutions to this are inside the farm gate blaming teagasc or anyone else in nonsense. Dairy farms will have to reduce the amount of low value calves they produce, rear calves for longer and take less for the calves but none of that will cause any farms to go out of buisness. Its small change in the larger scheme of things.
Expansion of the dairy herd is down to economics. Dairy cows are the only viable livestock enterprise. If you look on the mart price thread you would have to say the suckler cow is at the end of the road.
Say what you want about xbred cows but at least they dont need hand out after hand out to just about break even.

They may not need it to "just about break even" but they are not exempt from targeted handouts either. Intervention wasn't that long ago.

Bass Reeves · 23-10-2019 8:19pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Well if lads don't make money selling a certian type of animal, they won't stick to that system. That will level things out over time. It's said here enough times, but everone has to make a few shillings along the way. If only one person can make money along the way by buying value.......well that aint sustainable longterm.

I agree but expecting to buy a calf and turn a profit in 6-8 months is not possible either. Even a dairy farmer keeping until weanlings is not quite at the races either. TBH with any dairy stores now you need to be prepared to keep until there are at least 18 months to have a chance of a margin even in a good year.

Hard Knocks · 23-10-2019 9:31pm

mahoney_j wrote: »

Genuine question was beef/suckler farming thrown under the bus for dairy farmers gain all the buzz words for last few years revolves around the dairy cow .....

Yes and it always has been
Back in the 90’s the dairy farmers had a bad year and the beef farmers premiums were cut to support the dairy farmer
The dairy farmer hit a bad year around 2009 where the animal welfare was cut from €80 to €40 to support the dairy farmer
Even last year the beef farmer was getting the wrap for the fodder shortage
Dairy has always been the better enterprise but until the end of quotas it was difficult for new entrant and smaller farmers squeezed out
Currently the experts see growth in milk products and a demand for forestry to offset GHG with the suckler earmarked as the obstacle

Gawddawggonnit · 24-10-2019 7:49am

Developments/evolution of consumer sentiment in France.

A few weeks ago a good friend of mine was spraying his ‘magic mix’ of molasses etc for soil biology. He stopped near a road to blow out a blocked nozzle. A car with two men stopped and attacked him. They fractured his skull.
Day before yesterday a man from 14km away was spraying roundup. A guy assaulted him, fired him out of the cab of the sprayer, and clattered shyte out of the sprayer cab using a hammer. Broke windows, smashed screens etc...

I’d hate to be in the firing line of these extremists if we were slaughtering newborn calves.

These militant extremists are now entering veal farms, intensive poultry and pig farms, and setting up hidden cameras or taking live footage.
The times they are a’changing.

Panch18 · 24-10-2019 8:23am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What agenda have certain posters. Spell it out, there is no point in making a throw away statement like this. Either you have an opinion on it it not. If you think any lads is making untrue assumptions point out what is incorrect do not hide behind throwaway statement's.

Well its pretty obvious but if you want me to spell it out then:

you have a certain type of dairy farmer who has no Jersey cross who is more than willing to run down those with jersey cross and are using the calves as a stick to beat that particular system with
You have a certain type of dairy farmer whose vested interests lie on foreign shores who will do anything to run down Irish farming systems and is using this as a stick to create "propaganda" which is anti Irish dairy farmers
You have a certain type of beef farming who feels that the "beef crisis" is the fault of the dairy farmer and would literally say and do anything to get one up on dairy farmers if they thought it would have even the slightest impact on their own beef system
You have a certain type of farmer then who will literally say and do anything just so they can say they were right all along and make themselves feel like they are particularly smart and get lots of thanks for their posts. this particular segment are nearly hoping that there is a "vegan expose" with videos all over the internet. Not that there is anything at all to do an expose on but you get the feeling they'd love it if there was

Personally i prefer to deal with the facts and the reality of the situation. and the fact is that while there are calves being slaughtered young the numbers are absolutely tiny. Absolutely tiny.

It seems that the number of calves slaughtered young for this year will be circa 14,000. That's 14k out of 1.9 million calves born which makes it just over half of 1%, yes half of one percent. That means that 99.5% of calves born are not even an issue. There are plenty of countries around the world that have a higher death rate in human babies than that

So lets stop being drama queens all over. Keep the exports of calves going for as many calves as we can, for as long as we can. If the day comes, and i hope it never comes, that exports become problematic then we deal with the issue then. Realistically dealing with it means doing something like Say my Name mentioned earlier in the thread regarding dept approved facilities.

Personally we have never bred a calf that we couldn't sell or wouldn't be happy bringing onto beef. We do our best to keep every calve alive and healthy. Every dairy farmer should do the same.

Mad_maxx · 24-10-2019 8:44am

It sounds crazy that these very small calves are not euthanized, is there a ban or is it political pressure from the green lobby?

jaymla627 · 24-10-2019 8:46am

Panch18 wrote: »

Well its pretty obvious but if you want me to spell it out then:
you have a certain type of dairy farmer who has no Jersey cross who is more than willing to run down those with jersey cross and are using the calves as a stick to beat that particular system with

You have a certain type of dairy farmer whose vested interests lie on foreign shores who will do anything to run down Irish farming systems and is using this as a stick to create "propaganda" which is anti Irish dairy farmers

You have a certain type of beef farming who feels that the "beef crisis" is the fault of the dairy farmer and would literally say and do anything to get one up on dairy farmers if they thought it would have even the slightest impact on their own beef system

You have a certain type of farmer then who will literally say and do anything just so they can say they were right all along and make themselves feel like they are particularly smart and get lots of thanks for their posts. this particular segment are nearly hoping that there is a "vegan expose" with videos all over the internet. Not that there is anything at all to do an expose on but you get the feeling they'd love it if there was

Personally i prefer to deal with the facts and the reality of the situation. and the fact is that while there are calves being slaughtered young the numbers are absolutely tiny. Absolutely tiny.

It seems that the number of calves slaughtered young for this year will be circa 14,000. That's 14k out of 1.9 million calves born which makes it just over half of 1%, yes half of one percent. That means that 99.5% of calves born are not even an issue. There are plenty of countries around the world that have a higher death rate in human babies than that

So lets stop being drama queens all over. Keep the exports of calves going for as many calves as we can, for as long as we can. If the day comes, and i hope it never comes, that exports become problematic then we deal with the issue then. Realistically dealing with it means doing something like Say my Name mentioned earlier in the thread regarding dept approved facilities.

Personally we have never bred a calf that we couldn't sell or wouldn't be happy bringing onto beef. We do our best to keep every calve alive and healthy. Every dairy farmer should do the same.

Your been very economical with the truth re the 14500 figure its multiples of that just on paper it's down as a calf death

_Brian · 24-10-2019 8:55am

I read elsewhere that the Angus and Hereford bonus has been pulled.

That will change things.

Panch18 · 24-10-2019 9:09am

jaymla627 wrote: »

Your been very economical with the truth re the 14500 figure its multiples of that just on paper it's down as a calf death

The department numbers show circa 14k so lets go with that - like i said if we all just looked at the facts its much better

The problem nowadays is that between the pub, facebook, whatsApp and snapchat (and here as well) these things get blown out of all proportion and situation get very distorted very quickly

Also, as i'm sure every dairy farmer is aware, if a farmer has any abnormalities in his live calve rate then he will be drawing the attention of the department upon him. And i know that for a fact because we ended up with more live calves than cows calved for the last 2 years due to minimal mortality and unusually high twins rate. So unless there is some kind of serious scam that i am totally unaware of then it is extremely difficult for a farmer to "take care" of unwanted calves himself because his mortality rate will stand out like a sore thumb. And this will only get more and more attention from the department going forward. So like i said above, lets look at the official numbers and not heresay

Panch18 · 24-10-2019 9:10am

_Brian wrote: »

I read elsewhere that the Angus and Hereford bonus has been pulled.

That will change things.

Any link to that?

Mooooo · 24-10-2019 9:18am

jaymla627 wrote: »

Your been very economical with the truth re the 14500 figure its multiples of that just on paper it's down as a calf death

You're suggesting on farm mortality covers the figures? f that was the case department would be in and closing lads down seeing as dairy bull calves would be close on 30% in a herd over the season. I doubt it

riemann · 24-10-2019 10:09am

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I'd stop if I was showing a loss.

Most businesses show a loss, or at the very least minimise profit, to minimise tax liabilities. On paper.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 24-10-2019 10:10am

Mad_maxx wrote: »

It sounds crazy that these very small calves are not euthanized, is there a ban or is it political pressure from the green lobby?

Which very small calves? Jersey cross? I have a few every year, half and quarter bred jersey bulls and have never failed to sell any of them yet. I've never had to resort to putting a calf down for anything other than illness or BVD infection.

I wouldn't know any farmer that would be in any way happy to kill a young animal but there are some out there that wouldn't be in any way worried about doing it. They would in no way, shape or form be anything other than an extremely small minority.

You don't spend most of your life trying to keep animals alive to turn around one day and put a load of them down because of their inconvenience.

_Brian · 24-10-2019 10:47am

Panch18 wrote: »

Any link to that?

From the Teagasc group on FB.
Other posters confirming same.

Not official by any means but worrying to see.

Bass Reeves · 24-10-2019 11:14am

I think a few people would want to read the front page of today's FJ. This is not a few lads looking for thank you to posts. Neither is it a snap chat or face book phenomenon. This is coming down the road fast.

Danzy · 24-10-2019 11:15am

Panch18 wrote: »

The department numbers show circa 14k so lets go with that - like i said if we all just looked at the facts its much better

The problem nowadays is that between the pub, facebook, whatsApp and snapchat (and here as well) these things get blown out of all proportion and situation get very distorted very quickly

Also, as i'm sure every dairy farmer is aware, if a farmer has any abnormalities in his live calve rate then he will be drawing the attention of the department upon him. And i know that for a fact because we ended up with more live calves than cows calved for the last 2 years due to minimal mortality and unusually high twins rate. So unless there is some kind of serious scam that i am totally unaware of then it is extremely difficult for a farmer to "take care" of unwanted calves himself because his mortality rate will stand out like a sore thumb. And this will only get more and more attention from the department going forward. So like i said above, lets look at the official numbers and not heresay

Correct, they know the average calving rate, mortality, duration etc of every herd, if your one is standing out it is flagged automatically.

Panch18 · 24-10-2019 11:32am

_Brian wrote: »

From the Teagasc group on FB.
Other posters confirming same.

Not official by any means but worrying to see.

Now that is a worry if true

jaymla627 · 24-10-2019 11:36am

Mooooo wrote: »

You're suggesting on farm mortality covers the figures? f that was the case department would be in and closing lads down seeing as dairy bull calves would be close on 30% in a herd over the season. I doubt it

Not going to put out the nuts and bolts of it on a public forum, but it seems alot of lads on here trying to say it's a minor issue and not happening wholesale have lived a very sheltered existence and rambling on about the department shutting farms down, you do realise that in order for the department to take this route it's the nuclear option where stock arent been tb tested tagged and half starved over a number of years of non-compliance they then might remove animals and maybe not in alot of cases they just take sfp away and leave the farmer to it

Bass Reeves · 24-10-2019 12:19pm

Panch18 wrote: »

Now that is a worry if true

It depends on which rate you are on. Unless you kill over 50/ year you will not get the higher AA rate(unless a Suckler farmer). So most only get 10c/kg. Saw the deduction on AA has gone to 6)head it was 5. In this case it worth about 229-22 euro on a heifer and 24-28 on a bullock. Ya for lads getting the 20c/head on csttle it will be different but not something I factor in when buying. HE would be slightly different as they tend to kill heavier but it only 2-5/head extra.

However lads over react and it could impact the prices of these calves more

riemann · 24-10-2019 2:32pm

_Brian wrote: »

From the Teagasc group on FB.
Other posters confirming same.

Not official by any means but worrying to see.

You didn't block out those names btw.

_Brian · 24-10-2019 4:17pm

riemann wrote: »

You didn't block out those names btw.

Be grand
I tried, a real nosy bollox could always join the group and see them anyway 🙄

patsy_mccabe · 24-10-2019 5:48pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think a few people would want to read the front page of today's FJ. This is not a few lads looking for thank you to posts. Neither is it a snap chat or face book phenomenon. This is coming down the road fast.

Throw up a pic. Haven't bought it in weeks.

jaymla627 · 24-10-2019 6:30pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Throw up a pic. Haven't bought it in weeks.

Their is a good 6 pages on it, basically live exports are going to be curtailed, you wont be allowed to bobby them and unless you can find a victim sorry beef farmer to buy them and promise to rear them to beef, you'll be stuck giving Larry a good supply of cheap meat for the duration you stay milking cows....

K.G. · 24-10-2019 7:02pm

If you think this through its not the amount or the quality of the calves being born its the complete lack of profitability in beef in ireland.only way out of this is to lower the cost of producing beef because the end price is completely out of our hands.

Say my name · 24-10-2019 7:04pm

I don't particularly want to get back in this thread. I've made my points.

But..
Is there any precedence any where else in the world of what is being talked about?
I mean by a farmer led and pushed on to end live exports and slaughter?
It's not industry as it's from Ifa seminars but have one or two maybe from industry.
The one or two from industry say it should be a pre emptive decision we make before it's made for us and is all from potential internet footage and outrage.
Now here's the kicker for ye to consider.
There's considerable opposition online to artificial insemination with many calling it rape and abuse.
So going off the above decisions being talked about. Should we as farmers go one further and eliminate artificial insemination so we can hold our heads high and really please our milk buyers, teagasc, and consumers?

yosemitesam1 · 24-10-2019 7:37pm

K.G. wrote: »

If you think this through its not the amount or the quality of the calves being born its the complete lack of profitability in beef in ireland.only way out of this is to lower the cost of producing beef because the end price is completely out of our hands.

Lowering the cost of beef production means lowering the cost of land and using it less intensively

alps · 24-10-2019 7:43pm

Say my name wrote: »

I don't particularly want to get back in this thread. I've made my points.

But..
Is there any precedence any where else in the world of what is being talked about?
I mean by a farmer led and pushed on to end live exports and slaughter?
It's not industry as it's from Ifa seminars but have one or two maybe from industry.
The one or two from industry say it should be a pre emptive decision we make before it's made for us and is all from potential internet footage and outrage.
Now here's the kicker for ye to consider.
There's considerable opposition online to artificial insemination with many calling it rape and abuse.
So going off the above decisions being talked about. Should we as farmers go one further and eliminate artificial insemination so we can hold our heads high and really please our milk buyers, teagasc, and consumers?

Lots of truths here tbf..

This is processor led, and very kindly facilitated by the lady in IFA who facilitated the expansion and share up programme for the same processors and given scientific credence by teagasc.....who forgot about the calves in the original plan...

Firstly these calves are slaughtered for a market and that market took what it was able to process and market. Next up was live exports, which again took what it could do to fulfill their market.

When pressure came on these 2 outlets and farm2farm trade we literally ended up with calves being dumped in the marts...actually abandoned by their owners..

The cruelty is not in the operations. The creal cruelty is where owners do not properly treat these calves before or during their route to market. This can include inadequate beistings, poor housing and poor nutrition..

Fraud is also prevalent regarding incorrect site and date of birth declarations...

What's being proposed is a mandatory protocol, effecting all farmers, due to the negligence of a few.

And yes, the main concern is that a programme a damning as the greyhound one either exists or is very close to airing..

Say my name · 24-10-2019 8:24pm

alps wrote: »

Lots of truths here tbf..

This is processor led, and very kindly facilitated by the lady in IFA who facilitated the expansion and share up programme for the same processors and given scientific credence by teagasc.....who forgot about the calves in the original plan...

Firstly these calves are slaughtered for a market and that market took what it was able to process and market. Next up was live exports, which again took what it could do to fulfill their market.

When pressure came on these 2 outlets and farm2farm trade we literally ended up with calves being dumped in the marts...actually abandoned by their owners..

The cruelty is not in the operations. The creal cruelty is where owners do not properly treat these calves before or during their route to market. This can include inadequate beistings, poor housing and poor nutrition..

Fraud is also prevalent regarding incorrect site and date of birth declarations...

What's being proposed is a mandatory protocol, effecting all farmers, due to the negligence of a few.

And yes, the main concern is that a programme a damning as the greyhound one either exists or is very close to airing..

How can any person, organization or body ensure that a calf is properly fed?
They're not exactly going to be on that persons shoulder inspecting their work.
If they can't sell those calves and there's no outlet and they've the place stocked to the hilt with cows and loans borrowed for expansion and definitely can't reduce cow numbers and are forced to keep those calves. You'll end up with farmers in severe depression and the whole herd will be neglected and that'll make for nice viewing.

The banning the artificial insemination is an idea though. It's rated on a par with all you posted by the online brigade.
Banning it would make more bull calves valuable. The ai companies would be gone. Money would flow between farmers instead of to suits. It'll be a world first and show we're serious about markets.

K.G. · 24-10-2019 8:26pm

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Lowering the cost of beef production means lowering the cost of land and using it less intensively

It also means increasing scale and simplifying the entire system just like the pig or poultry or at thid the tillage game.there cant be money for everyone in a beef animal as it done at the moment with maybe at least 3.owners plus various marts dealers and suppliers.i was talking to a substantial beef man and he suggested he buys his ratio 30 euros a ton cheaper than standard customers. And to be honest the mill still makes more out of him than average customers in that its all full loads and maybe 4 aweek almost every week.we get that classic tractor magazine and it alwayas strikes me the difference in scale between england and here.even here on iur farm we produce about 15 times what we produced in 86 and we were nearly as busy then as now.im just saying thers alot of improvement in efficiency required inthe irish beef sector

alps · 24-10-2019 9:35pm

K.G. wrote: »

It also means increasing scale and simplifying the entire system just like the pig or poultry or at thid the tillage game.there cant be money for everyone in a beef animal as it done at the moment with maybe at least 3.owners plus various marts dealers and suppliers.i was talking to a substantial beef man and he suggested he buys his ratio 30 euros a ton cheaper than standard customers. And to be honest the mill still makes more out of him than average customers in that its all full loads and maybe 4 aweek almost every week.we get that classic tractor magazine and it alwayas strikes me the difference in scale between england and here.even here on iur farm we produce about 15 times what we produced in 86 and we were nearly as busy then as now.im just saying thers alot of improvement in efficiency required inthe irish beef sector

I'd suggest that it's as near as efficient as you can get..

It's got free land and free labour...you wont get that by scaling up..

Spring 2020..... 1.5m Dairy calves.... discuss.

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