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Healthy baby aborted at 15 weeks

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Comments

  • #652
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Yes.

    Why is it any of your business what a woman decides to do?

    Our state intervenes when women decide to have eating habits that society derm not to be the norm. Many women and men think anorexia is a choice yet our society can have them institutionalised and force fed. These are highly intelligent women in the main from well off backgrounds who have cogent arguments for choosing to do it , should we allow it to be "their choice , their body"?


  • #653
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Our state intervenes when women decide to have eating habits that society derm not to be the norm. Many women and men think anorexia is a choice yet our society can have them institutionalised and force fed. These are highly intelligent women in the main from well off backgrounds who have cogent arguments for choosing to do it , should we allow it to be "their choice , their body"?

    Anorexia is a mental illness which could have serious consequences for someone's health.

    It's not just women who suffer from anorexia either but you go on your spate of whataboutery there.


  • #654
    kaymin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,551 ✭✭✭kaymin


    nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »
    Our knowledge is not complete, sure, but calling it "fairly primitive" is massively disingenuous. We understand a hell of a lot in fact. And there is nothing in our current understanding that even BEGINS to suggest sentience has come on line at 12 weeks.

    To use an analogy.... if sentience is radio waves... then you are suggesting the radio waves might be there not just before the radio tower broadcasting them has been turned on..... but before it has even been built.



    Fringe science, hardly proven. But IF they prove it, you will find me sticking to my convictions and I would not longer have moral or ethical concern for new borns. But there is a lot of evidence, including in the links I provided you yesterday, to the contrary here.

    But you are not negating my position, just strengthening it. There is no evidence AT ALL that sentience exists at 12-16 weeks when we actually do the abortions. That it might ALSO not exist later than that.... well thats not my problem then is it???

    Further given it is a new born, and no longer part of a pregnancy, it also has NOTHING to do with the topic of this thread. Which is about abortion. But yes if you are interested Peter Singer for example has talked about what moral and ethical concerns we should have for new borns. Though I disagree with him for a number of reasons, he at least attempts to argue his case further than "Oh look it is human shaped!".

    My point is that this sentience argument is very flawed / weak. As you admit yourself, you would have no problem killing a newborn if the views of certain scientists about sentience are to be believed. I find this quite disturbing.

    Despite what you say about our knowledge of the brain, most knowledgeable people admit it is primitive in comparison to the brain's capability. After all, if we knew so much why haven't we come up with cures for Alzheimer’s, vascular dementia, Dewy body dementia, Parkinsonism, epilepsy and other seizure disorders, multiple sclerosis, brain cancers, mood disorders or psychoses.


  • #655
    cournioni
    Moderators, Regional North East Moderators Posts: 12,739 Mod ✭✭✭✭cournioni


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Yes.

    Why is it any of your business what a woman decides to do?
    Doesn’t matter a toss if it’s a woman or a man. Killing shouldn’t be a choice, regardless of its location.


  • #656
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    cournioni wrote: »
    Doesn’t matter a toss if it’s a woman or a man. Killing shouldn’t be a choice, regardless of its location.

    Why is a woman having a termination (or indeed not having one) any of your business though?

    That's the question I asked you.


  • #657
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Why is a woman having a termination (or indeed not having one) any of your business though?

    That's the question I asked you.

    Why is a parent abusing their children any of our business?


  • #658
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Why is a parent abusing their children any of our business?

    If you’re aware of that happening you should report it.

    Not really relevant here though.


  • #659
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,809 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Why is a parent abusing their children any of our business?

    Children are citizens and entitled to protection under law. Hope that clears it up for you. Termination doesn't affect children. It affects fetuses.


  • #660
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    amcalester wrote: »
    If you’re aware of that happening you should report it.

    Not really relevant here though.

    Totally relevant if you consider the unborn child a human in their own right.


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  • #661
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Igotadose wrote: »
    Children are citizens and entitled to protection under law. Hope that clears it up for you. Termination doesn't affect children. It affects fetuses.

    Forget law. How about basic morals? If you saw a child being mistreated one would hope you would act in their defense based purely on moral obligation.

    Again with the dehumanisation.


  • #662
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Totally relevant if you consider the unborn child a human in their own right.

    What if the woman doesn't want to carry it?


  • #663
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Totally relevant if you consider the unborn child a human in their own right.

    Ah, well Ireland doesn’t so it is irrelevant.


  • #664
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    What if the woman doesn't want to carry it?

    Then she should probably seek help from a mental health expert.


  • #665
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    amcalester wrote: »
    Ah, well Ireland doesn’t so it is irrelevant.

    So the child becomes a human once it exits the vagina?


  • #666
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Then she should probably seek help from a mental health expert.

    And if she does and still doesn't want to carry it?


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  • #667
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Why is a parent abusing their children any of our business?

    No, why is a woman deciding what to do with her own body any of our business?

    The law doesn't consider a termination within the parameters as 'child abuse' so frankly you can take your prejudicial morals and stick them up your hole.


  • #668
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    So the child becomes a human once it exits the vagina?

    You left out in it’s own right.


  • #669
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    And if she does and still doesn't want to carry it?

    Look, I am against abortion. It's impossible arguing minutia like this. Moral relativism and language games.

    I think there is something wrong with a woman who wants an abortion. It's beyond unnatural.


  • #670
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Look, I am against abortion. It's impossible arguing minutia like this. Moral relativism and language games.

    I think there is something wrong with a woman who wants an abortion. It's beyond unnatural.

    There are no language games. It is a very simple question.


  • #671
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Look, I am against abortion. It's impossible arguing minutia like this. Moral relativism and language games.

    I think there is something wrong with a woman who wants an abortion. It's beyond unnatural.

    I think there's something wrong with wanting to control what other people do with their own bodies.

    If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one.

    If a woman is raped, you would see something wrong with her not wanting to go through with a subsequent pregnancy?


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  • #672
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    And if she does and still doesn't want to carry it?

    Continued help? Sectioned?


  • #673
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Continued help? Sectioned?

    All the while remaining pregnant against her wishes?


  • #674
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Continued help? Sectioned?

    And forced to give birth?

    What about women who travel for an abortion? Stop them at the airport?


  • #675
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Faugheen wrote: »
    I think there's something wrong with wanting to control what other people do with their own bodies.

    If you don't want to have an abortion, don't have one.

    If a woman is raped, you would see something wrong with her not wanting to go through with a subsequent pregnancy?

    So if someone wants to slit their wrists you wouldn't try to stop them?

    Rape is wrong and evil and bad. Terminating the pregnancy solves nothing. Just adds to the tragedy.


  • #676
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    All the while remaining pregnant against her wishes?
    amcalester wrote: »
    And forced to give birth?

    What about women who travel for an abortion? Stop them at the airport?

    Yes, yes and yes.


  • #677
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    stefanovich wrote: »
    So if someone wants to slit their wrists you wouldn't try to stop them?

    Rape is wrong and evil and bad. Terminating the pregnancy solves nothing. Just adds to the tragedy.

    Someone slitting their wrists is putting their life in danger. You continue your whataboutery though.

    So you would force the raped woman to have the baby and deal with that trauma for the rest of her life through the child.

    Honestly, you have zero compassion or care for women here, to the point that you would have them sectioned for not wanting to go through a pregnancy for any reason.


  • #678
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Yes, yes and yes.


    So once pregnant, women lose their right to free travel?

    Do you envision mandatory pregnancy tests at all airports/ports?

    Should all women of childbearing age have their post inspected (like they do in prisons), just in case they order the medication online?

    Should all women have to perform monthly governent-required pregnancy tests, and, if they test positive one month and negative the next, should they have to provide evidence that this occurred due to natural causes?


  • #679
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Yes, yes and yes.

    Disgusting attitude.

    You’d probably deny the child access to vaccines then as well.

    You’ve a quare set of morals.


  • #680
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Continued help? Sectioned?

    You want to lock a woman up because she doesn't want to stay pregnant?

    How would you do that?

    Padded cell? Strapped to bed? Force fed until she goes into labour and delivers?


  • #681
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Someone slitting their wrists is putting their life in danger. You continue your whataboutery though.

    So you would force the raped woman to have the baby and deal with that trauma for the rest of her life through the child.

    Honestly, you have zero compassion or care for women here, to the point that you would have them sectioned for not wanting to go through a pregnancy for any reason.

    You are throwing extreme cases at me to make your point.

    The first thing I mentioned was helping and supporting the woman.

    If the woman does not want to keep the baby it can be adopted by someone who will love it.


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  • #682
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    amcalester wrote: »
    Disgusting attitude.

    You’d probably deny the child access to vaccines then as well.

    You’ve a quare set of morals.

    The child that should have been aborted?


  • #683
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    You are throwing extreme cases at me to make your point.

    The first thing I mentioned was helping and supporting the woman.

    If the woman does not want to keep the baby it can be adopted by someone who will love it.

    If that were yhe case there wouldn't be a long list of children currently waiting to be adopted.

    How do you think we could persuade people to adopt thousands of new borns a year?

    How many children currently on the adoption list will you yourself be taking in?


  • #684
    Faugheen
    Site Banned Posts: 12,341 ✭✭✭✭Faugheen


    stefanovich wrote: »
    You are throwing extreme cases at me to make your point.

    The first thing I mentioned was helping and supporting the woman.

    If the woman does not want to keep the baby it can be adopted by someone who will love it.

    But you have no interest in helping women. You want them locked away in a facility against their will because they don't want to continue with a pregnancy.

    That's mind-boggling stuff.


  • #685
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    You want to lock a woman up because she doesn't want to stay pregnant?

    How would you do that?

    Padded cell? Strapped to bed? Force fed until she goes into labour and delivers?

    Absolutely not. Given care and support and help.


  • #686
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    If that were yhe case there wouldn't be a long list of children currently waiting to be adopted.

    How do you think we could persuade people to adopt thousands of new borns a year?

    How many children currently on the adoption list will you yourself be taking in?

    Oh I forgot. We solve our population issue by importing people from abroad.

    There's many parents that are desperate to adopt. There is literally 0 adoption of Irish children.


  • #687
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    stefanovich wrote: »
    You are throwing extreme cases at me to make your point.

    The first thing I mentioned was helping and supporting the woman.

    If the woman does not want to keep the baby it can be adopted by someone who will love it.

    If the woman does not want to be pregnant you have suggested sectioning her with a view to her remaining pregnant. 9 months of pregnancy and child birth against her will.

    Is that the support you're talking about?


  • #688
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Absolutely not. Given care and support and help.

    What if she doesn't want "care and help" what if she just wants to have an abortion?


  • #689
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Absolutely not. Given care and support and help.


    To do what you want.
    Not what they want.






    That's not care, that's not help, that's most definitely not support.


  • #690
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Faugheen wrote: »
    Anorexia is a mental illness which could have serious consequences for someone's health.

    It's not just women who suffer from anorexia either but you go on your spate of whataboutery there.

    I did mention women AND men. So all mentally ill no matter what their ilness should be forcibly treated against their will? I seem to remember homosexuality and grandma sexuality being mental illnesses so you'll forgive me if I think that mental illness isn't a rock solid area.


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  • #691
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    Faugheen wrote: »
    But you have no interest in helping women. You want them locked away in a facility against their will because they don't want to continue with a pregnancy.

    That's mind-boggling stuff.

    Very controlling behavior. The type of thing an abuser would do and explain away as “I’m doing it to protect you”.


  • #692
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    If the woman does not want to be pregnant you have suggested sectioning her with a view to her remaining pregnant. 9 months of pregnancy and child birth against her will.

    Is that the support you're talking about?

    I would treat it like any mental health crisis would be treated as I view it as such.

    A lot of the time the issue the woman has it one of being judged by her family or peers. I say give them an environment where they feel no judgement and where they are supported and looked after.

    Criminally prosecute abortionists.


  • #693
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    I did mention women AND men. So all mentally ill no matter what their ilness should be forcibly treated against their will? I seem to remember homosexuality and grandma sexuality being mental illnesses so you'll forgive me if I think that mental illness isn't a rock solid area.

    They voted to remove homosexuality from the list based on political pressure.


  • #694
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Oh I forgot. We solve our population issue by importing people from abroad.

    There's many parents that are desperate to adopt. There is literally 0 adoption of Irish children.

    Now i know you're taking the pìss

    But lets play along with your silly little game, you want to "import" (strange word to use) people into ireland so they can adopt babies? Who are these people? Where will they live?

    How many babies on the current list are you going to adopt?


  • #695
    amcalester
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭amcalester


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Oh I forgot. We solve our population issue by importing people from abroad.

    There's many parents that are desperate to adopt. There is literally 0 adoption of Irish children.

    Isn’t that because of family rights in the constitution. Get rid of that and native adoptions could increase.
    Doubt you’d support that though.


  • #696
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    Now i know you're taking the pìss

    But lets play along with your silly little game, you want to "import" (strange word to use) people into ireland so they can adopt babies? Who are these people? Where will they live?

    How many babies on the current list are you going to adopt?

    What I am saying is that the European solution to a declining population is mass immigration.


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  • #697
    Igotadose
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,809 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    stefanovich wrote: »
    They voted to remove homosexuality from the list based on political pressure.

    And in your opinion, is it mental illness?

    Do tell the truth now, not like in the anti-vaxx thread. I know it can be difficult for you.


  • #698
    uptherebels
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,729 ✭✭✭uptherebels


    Nobelium wrote: »
    Again why do you claim to know and represent "society's" view, and who elected you as "society's" spokesperson ?

    Again I have already explained this to you. If you believe I am wrong please highlight where these instances are considered the same.


  • #699
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,644 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    stefanovich wrote: »
    What I am saying is that the European solution to a declining population is mass immigration.

    With a caveat that they adopt a child?

    How many babies on the current list will you be adopting? You keep refusing to answer this question for some reason.


  • #700
    Hannibal_Smith
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 7,151 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hannibal_Smith


    stefanovich wrote: »
    A lot of the time the issue the woman has it one of being judged by her family or peers. I say give them an environment where they feel no judgement and where they are supported and looked after.

    .

    Is this your take on the matter or are you presenting it as fact?


  • #701
    dudara
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    stefanovich wrote: »
    Continued help? Sectioned?

    You are saying that you would incarcerate women against their will, in order that they remain pregnant and carry a child to term? Do you not understand how that sounds? How it makes women feel that they do not matter?

    You need to understand that women don’t always want to be pregnant and can wish to end a pregnancy.


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