The Lingering Savagery of 1798

ClovenHoof · 01-03-2017 12:06am #1

I know this is not a history forum, but I think it is an interesting subject which does not get enough attention. An anyway, I am venting here more than trying to look clever.

When I was a kid in school we did a musical play about the 1798 United Irishmen uprising and it was all very romantic and patriotic. Later I read that it was "a different kind of Irish revolution" in that Catholics and Protestants fought side by side in the spirit of the Enlightenment.

In recent times I have looked at the event in microcosm and what stuck me was the absolute savagery of the 1798 Rising. Far from the romantic ecumenical romance of the event, the sectarian atrocities committed by both sides is almost impossible to fathom. It was Ireland's 'Balkan War' in terms of this. Entire regions would be effectively sterilized of Catholics or Protestants depending on who was winning at the time.

The brutality and lack of human rights for prisoners is another factor. At the Battle of Tara so many were killed that numbers are unknown. It might have been as high at 10,000 on a small patch of land around the churchyard. All captured rebels were disemboweled and left to die in agony overnight with their entrails strewn across the hill before all being dumped in a mass grave beside the Lia Fail.

Even today on a social and psychological level communities have not healed. In parts of south Sligo there is an unspoken sectarianism to this day which is a results of atrocities on both sides. But most of all in parts of rural Wexford there are deeply insular communities which are like something out of the middle ages and deeply distrusting of outsiders. All because of the 'romance' of 1798. They are still ****ed up by it.

Reading about this time reminded me of what a ****ty history (at times) we have in this country and how the scars of war are neither smothered in a romantic backstory, or healed by the passing in centuries.

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly · 01-03-2017 12:44am

ClovenHoof wrote: »

there is an unspoken sectarianism to this day which is a results of atrocities on both sides. But most of all in parts of rural Wexford there are deeply insular communities which are like something out of the middle ages and deeply distrusting of outsiders. All because of the 'romance' of 1798. They are still ****ed up by it.

How dare you insult my intelligence with such utterly unsubstantiated twaddle.

ClovenHoof · 01-03-2017 2:52am

Roger Mellie Man on the Telly wrote: »

How dare you insult my intelligence with such utterly unsubstantiated twaddle.

You're not well are you?

Arghus · 01-03-2017 3:36am

I was there at the time and it didn't seem too bad in all honesty.

01-03-2017 3:53am

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The brutality and lack of human rights for prisoners is another factor. At the Battle of Tara so many were killed that numbers are unknown. It might have been as high at 10,000 on a small patch of land around the churchyard. All captured rebels were disemboweled and left to die in agony overnight with their entrails strewn across the hill before all being dumped in a mass grave beside the Lia Fail.

...But most of all in parts of rural Wexford there are deeply insular communities which are like something out of the middle ages and deeply distrusting of outsiders. All because of the 'romance' of 1798. They are still ****ed up by it.

No denying 1798 was savage, barns filled with people and burned, babies pitchforked etc., and the numbers that died in Wexford were enormous.

But have to question the figure of 10k dying in any one battle. I can't imagine there'd have been anything like that even on the field of battle, outside Wexford.

And the whole "Wexforders hate outsiders to this day" conclusion. Hmmmm...

Noddyholder · 01-03-2017 4:36am

Intresting ok OP, just on the Sligo Wexford would you have any links or evidence that this is the case today ?

Galwayguy35 · 01-03-2017 9:14am

War is brutal so I don't see how the OP is surprised.

Roger Hassenforder · 01-03-2017 9:18am

Those Wexford lads would want to start getting over the Kilkenny lads pissing in the powder, and just move on.
Worse things happen at sea.

sjb25 · 01-03-2017 9:24am

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Those Wexford lads would want to start getting over the Kilkenny lads pissing in the powder, and just move on.
quote]

NEVER!!!! If there was a shower worse than them yeomen 'twas them traitors

Ted111 · 01-03-2017 9:30am

A simple auld salad is all they were eating.
Sitting in the middle of a field.
Eating a salad.
Maybe a bottle of red lemonade.
Some tomatoes. Bit of lettuce.
A bit of ham.

sjb25 · 01-03-2017 9:32am

Ted111 wrote: »

A simple auld salad is all they were eating.
Sitting in the middle of a field.
Eating a salad.
Maybe a bottle of red lemonade.
Some tomatoes. Bit of lettuce.
A bit of ham.

Basterds

fizzypish · 01-03-2017 9:38am

Heard this screamed during a tipp v wexford game in the stand (families, kids etc...) as a young lad. "Only 2 kinds of people in Wexford. Strawberries and K#$%^&*# and I don't see no ****ing strawberries". Tipp was winning too so it seemed a little unnecessary.....

realdanbreen · 01-03-2017 9:43am

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I know this is not a history forum, but I think it is an interesting subject which does not get enough attention. An anyway, I am venting here more than trying to look clever.

When I was a kid in school we did a musical play about the 1798 United Irishmen uprising and it was all very romantic and patriotic. Later I read that it was "a different kind of Irish revolution" in that Catholics and Protestants fought side by side in the spirit of the Enlightenment.

In recent times I have looked at the event in microcosm and what stuck me was the absolute savagery of the 1798 Rising. Far from the romantic ecumenical romance of the event, the sectarian atrocities committed by both sides is almost impossible to fathom. It was Ireland's 'Balkan War' in terms of this. Entire regions would be effectively sterilized of Catholics or Protestants depending on who was winning at the time.

The brutality and lack of human rights for prisoners is another factor. At the Battle of Tara so many were killed that numbers are unknown. It might have been as high at 10,000 on a small patch of land around the churchyard. All captured rebels were disemboweled and left to die in agony overnight with their entrails strewn across the hill before all being dumped in a mass grave beside the Lia Fail.

Even today on a social and psychological level communities have not healed. In parts of south Sligo there is an unspoken sectarianism to this day which is a results of atrocities on both sides. But most of all in parts of rural Wexford there are deeply insular communities which are like something out of the middle ages and deeply distrusting of outsiders. All because of the 'romance' of 1798. They are still ****ed up by it.

Reading about this time reminded me of what a ****ty history (at times) we have in this country and how the scars of war are neither smothered in a romantic backstory, or healed by the passing in centuries.

You can see how Davey Fitzgerald fits right in there in Wexford!

razorblunt · 01-03-2017 9:46am

Rule number 1: don't attack cannon lines if all you're holding is a pitchfork.

murpho999 · 01-03-2017 9:52am

So where is the savagery lingering from 219 years ago?

Mini850 · 01-03-2017 9:56am

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Those Wexford lads would want to start getting over the Kilkenny lads pissing in the powder, and just move on.
Worse things happen at sea.

Till the day she died, my gran wouldn't go to Kilkenny as it was a "Tan" town/city.

She died in the late 80's though, so more than 20 years ago, but I do still hear it now and again.........

aidan24326 · 01-03-2017 10:15am

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Even today on a social and psychological level communities have not healed. In parts of south Sligo there is an unspoken sectarianism to this day which is a results of atrocities on both sides. But most of all in parts of rural Wexford there are deeply insular communities which are like something out of the middle ages and deeply distrusting of outsiders. All because of the 'romance' of 1798. They are still ****ed up by it.

Ah here now, you're telling us they're still fcuked up by stuff that happened 220 years ago??? Way before anyone they've ever known was even born? Time to move on I think.

heebusjeebus · 01-03-2017 10:22am

Ted111 wrote: »

A simple auld salad is all they were eating.
Sitting in the middle of a field.
Eating a salad.
Maybe a bottle of red lemonade.
Some tomatoes. Bit of lettuce.
A bit of ham.

bang bang!

Noddyholder · 01-03-2017 10:24am

murpho999 wrote: »

So where is the savagery lingering from 219 years ago?

Courtown on a long weekend :-):D

Your Face · 01-03-2017 10:26am

I remember when war was all tickling and chasing.
Or was that love.

biko · 01-03-2017 11:50am

It wasn't half as bad as the lingerie incident describe in "A Christmassy Ted"

Roger Hassenforder · 01-03-2017 12:08pm

heebusjeebus wrote: »

bang bang!

Put him up agin a wall in the middle of a field
One shot

qm1bv4p8i92aoj · 01-03-2017 12:24pm

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

Put him up agin a wall in the middle of a field
One shot

What they didn't do to that family.

Basterds.

RicePat · 01-03-2017 12:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

No denying 1798 was savage, barns filled with people and burned, babies pitchforked etc., and the numbers that died in Wexford were enormous.

But have to question the figure of 10k dying in any one battle. I can't imagine there'd have been anything like that even on the field of battle, outside Wexford.

And the whole "Wexforders hate outsiders to this day" conclusion. Hmmmm...

Reading about the whole pitchcapping thing always stuck with me. Serious nasty business

RicePat · 01-03-2017 12:41pm

Your Face wrote: »

I remember when war was all tickling and chasing.
Or was that love.

There's plenty would have you believe that's what the War of Independence was like

whisky_galore · 01-03-2017 12:57pm

Mini850 wrote: »

Till the day she died, my gran wouldn't go to Kilkenny as it was a "Tan" town/city.

She died in the late 80's though, so more than 20 years ago, but I do still hear it now and again.........

TBF that was a generation that believed concrete statues moved if you prayed really, really hard enough.
Think most folks now have gotten over themselves.

topper75 · 01-03-2017 1:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

And the whole "Wexforders hate outsiders to this day" conclusion. Hmmmm...

Been down there as an outsider from Limerick.

Beautiful countryside. Beautiful people. Had the craic with all - quare surnames and normal surnames alike :pac: Never treated with anything but respect.

By God but ye have an awful amount of quare surnames down there to this day.

The clue to understanding the OP's issue is simply that the 1798 rebellion was a war. I don't know of any pretty wars in reality. All of them have some atrocities alongside some heroism. And all wars have some perceivable lasting effects through the ages to some extent.

Nothing to see here.

Guy:Incognito · 01-03-2017 1:13pm

topper75 wrote: »

I don't know of any pretty wars in reality.

The war of the roses? That one sound as nice .

SEPT 23 1989 · 01-03-2017 1:14pm

Its a good weekend in Enniscorthy with the reenactments on Vinegar Hill and on the streets for anyone has hasnt done it

Coffee Fulled Runner · 01-03-2017 1:49pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Even today on a social and psychological level communities have not healed. In parts of south Sligo there is an unspoken sectarianism to this day which is a results of atrocities on both sides. .

Total rubbish there is nothing like that in south Sligo but feel free to back up your claim.

Beanntraigheach · 01-03-2017 2:09pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

........

Even today on a social and psychological level communities have not healed. In parts of south Sligo there is an unspoken sectarianism to this day which is a results of atrocities on both sides. But most of all in parts of rural Wexford there are deeply insular communities which are like something out of the middle ages and deeply distrusting of outsiders. All because of the 'romance' of 1798. They are still ****ed up by it.
........

Name them and tell us more.

Lt Dan · 01-03-2017 3:10pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I know this is not a history forum, but I think it is an interesting subject which does not get enough attention. An anyway, I am venting here more than trying to look clever.

When I was a kid in school we did a musical play about the 1798 United Irishmen uprising and it was all very romantic and patriotic. Later I read that it was "a different kind of Irish revolution" in that Catholics and Protestants fought side by side in the spirit of the Enlightenment.

In recent times I have looked at the event in microcosm and what stuck me was the absolute savagery of the 1798 Rising. Far from the romantic ecumenical romance of the event, the sectarian atrocities committed by both sides is almost impossible to fathom. It was Ireland's 'Balkan War' in terms of this. Entire regions would be effectively sterilized of Catholics or Protestants depending on who was winning at the time.

The brutality and lack of human rights for prisoners is another factor. At the Battle of Tara so many were killed that numbers are unknown. It might have been as high at 10,000 on a small patch of land around the churchyard. All captured rebels were disemboweled and left to die in agony overnight with their entrails strewn across the hill before all being dumped in a mass grave beside the Lia Fail.

Even today on a social and psychological level communities have not healed. In parts of south Sligo there is an unspoken sectarianism to this day which is a results of atrocities on both sides. But most of all in parts of rural Wexford there are deeply insular communities which are like something out of the middle ages and deeply distrusting of outsiders. All because of the 'romance' of 1798. They are still ****ed up by it.

Reading about this time reminded me of what a ****ty history (at times) we have in this country and how the scars of war are neither smothered in a romantic backstory, or healed by the passing in centuries.

I would expect idiots from the Irish American community to make this fatal mistake

The war was about people: Whether Catholic, Protestant or Dissenter forming an allegiance seeking complete Independence from Britain. Yes, they were mostly Catholic, but core leaders were Protestants

The other side swore allegiance to Britain; They appeared to be mostly Irish Protestant but it was not exclusive.

Obviously there was sectarianism, but, it was not a religious war

eamonnq · 01-03-2017 3:19pm

Lingerie ??

Misread the title,

Galwayguy35 · 01-03-2017 3:28pm

I think Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmet don't seem to get the same recognition as others who fought to get the Brits out of our country.

Lt Dan · 01-03-2017 3:31pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I think Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmet don't seem to get the same recognition as others who fought to get the Brits out of our country.

Not sure about that. People still talk about Emmet's speech in the dock and Fianna Fáil do an annual graveside ceremony for Wolfie

Besides, Wolfie has a band named after him.

Perhaps it is because they are Prods? Not sure , when the Catholic Church blatantly sided with the Republican story, they wanted those two as it's head?

goose2005 · 01-03-2017 3:33pm

Your Face wrote: »

I remember when war was all tickling and chasing.
Or was that love.

no, love is a battlefield

conorhal · 01-03-2017 4:02pm

aidan24326 wrote: »

Ah here now, you're telling us they're still fcuked up by stuff that happened 220 years ago??? Way before anyone they've ever known was even born? Time to move on I think.

Well just as we raised generations who were brought up to think in only purely nationalistic terms we are now raising generations with the groupthink that all nationalism is fascism and evil. Neither encourage much in the way of ballanced critical thought.

Dyr · 01-03-2017 4:20pm

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Its a good weekend in Enniscorthy with the reenactments on Vinegar Hill and on the streets for anyone has hasnt done it

Sproggs: "What are we doing for the weekend Daddy?"

Daddy: "Piking prods!!"

Sproggs: "Yaaay!!"

CrabRevolution · 01-03-2017 4:36pm

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I think Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmet don't seem to get the same recognition as others who fought to get the Brits out of our country.

We've dozens of streets, squares, statues etc. dedicated to them. I know of several GAA clubs dedicated to them aswell. They're fairly firmly established in the list of nationalist heroes.

What more recognition is needed?

topper75 · 01-03-2017 5:07pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

The war of the roses? That one sound as nice .

However 'roses' sounds, that war actually lasted for decades believe it or not, and one of the battles, Towton, was the bloodiest ever seen on the island of Britain at the time: 28,000 dead bodies on the field afterwards - a huge number for Britain's then population.
The battle actually went on for several hours. Prisoners taken were executed after. It was said that the nearby rivers "ran red with blood".
All just to see who would be the king. I might have issues with Michael D Higgins, but it would never come to that.:D

01-03-2017 5:53pm

RicePat wrote: »

Reading about the whole pitchcapping thing always stuck with me. Serious nasty business

Pitchcapping was horrific. It happened to Anthony Perry (a Protestant) who led the victory at the Battle of Tuberneering.

The 1798 Rebellion and the campaign in Wexford was remarkable in scale and savagery. Often forgotten as for years the history syllabus at second level effectively started with the Famine. It dwarfed all subsequent uprisings, including 1916 and the War of Independence, for size and brutality. I know we can get a bit flippant, but it can be pretty moving to visit the scenes of the battles and think of the thousands who died. Some events, like the massacre at Scullabogue, are hard to even take in. And of course some fellow came along in the 90s and flattened the remains of the barn where they were burned...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scullabogue_Barn_massacre

mariaalice · 01-03-2017 5:59pm

Reminds me of taking my mother to the 1798 interpretative centre in Enniscorty, she was from a generation of people who were ingrained with the idea that it was a sort of simple goodies v baddies( Irish good, English/protestant bad ) Totally believed that the ballad Boolavogue was historically correct, anyway half way round she wanted to leave because he ideas were being challenged.

RicePat · 01-03-2017 6:49pm

mariaalice wrote: »

Reminds me of taking my mother to the 1798 interpretative centre in Enniscorty, she was from a generation of people who were ingrained with the idea that it was a sort of simple goodies v baddies( Irish good, English/protestant bad ) Totally believed that the ballad Boolavogue was historically correct, anyway half way round she wanted to leave because he ideas were being challenged.

That's why I've always though propaganda is such a short sighted act. It's the lie that often gets you more than the act. For a good example of this you should compare and contrast the Orange Order's version of the "Battle of the Diamond" on their website with pretty much any reputable historical account

BalcombeSt4 · 01-03-2017 8:52pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

We've dozens of streets, squares, statues etc. dedicated to them. I know of several GAA clubs dedicated to them aswell. They're fairly firmly established in the list of nationalist heroes.

What more recognition is needed?

The UVF blew up the Wolfe Tone statue in St.Stephens Green.

CrabRevolution · 01-03-2017 8:55pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

The UVF blew up the Wolfe Tone statue in St.Stephens Green.

The bronze one next to the famine monument? Or was there a previous statue?

BalcombeSt4 · 01-03-2017 9:01pm

CrabRevolution wrote: »

The bronze one next to the famine monument? Or was there a previous statue?

This one.

https://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/wolfe-tone-statue.jpeg

They also bombed the Daniel O'Connell monument in O'Connell street around the same time, little damage was done tho.

Lt Dan · 01-03-2017 9:17pm

Bambi wrote: »

Sproggs: "What are we doing for the weekend Daddy?"

Daddy: "Piking prods!!"

Sproggs: "Yaaay!!"

On the orders of Prods!

Plenty of Catholics fought for the Brits! You hardly believe that their numbers came from Mainland Britain? Good grief!

CrabRevolution · 01-03-2017 9:45pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

This one.

https://comeheretome.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/wolfe-tone-statue.jpeg

They also bombed the Daniel O'Connell monument in O'Connell street around the same time, little damage was done tho.

Didn't know that....

Though it kinda proves my point. If the UVF are bombing statues of someone, he must be important to nationalists!

The Lingering Savagery of 1798

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