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Public Consultation on a Micro-generation Support Scheme (MSS) in Ireland

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    #182
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    I could have sworn there was posts about payment cap at 30% rated kWp, must be losing it

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    #183
    graememk
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    slave1 wrote: »
    I could have sworn there was posts about payment cap at 30% rated kWp, must be losing it

    The premium rate is capped at 30%. Of your output?(magical calculation maybe they just use jrc) up to 4kwp + ber requirements+ faff

    Besides, anyone that has panels in now won't get the premium rate. That's for installs after June 2021.

    Anyone who has panels in now gets the CEG (clean export guarantee) regulated by the CRU I think.

    Suppliers have the choice to pay more if they want.


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    #184
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    citizen6 wrote: »
    Are we assuming that the existing SEAI grants will be removed after FIT comes in? I'm not seeing any end date for the grant on SEAI website.

    Apparently not. The grant is to be reduced but not eliminated.


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    #185
    idc
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭idc


    Watched the green party live facebook discussion on this. Didn't really learn anything new but they did stress if people have issues with the current plan submit your objections/changes etc. They had someone who worked on consultation and another who appears to do a lot of community and school installations. She was very opposed to a lot of the scheme as is -- BER requirement and problems with the ESB network and issues with new connections.


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    #186
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,837 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    idc wrote: »
    Watched the green party live facebook discussion on this. Didn't really learn anything new but they did stress if people have issues with the current plan submit your objections/changes etc. They had someone who worked on consultation and another who appears to do a lot of community and school installations. She was very opposed to a lot of the scheme as is -- BER requirement and problems with the ESB network and issues with new connections.


    I'm not really sure what people's issues with a minimum BER requirement is, it pays off much better to spend money on energy efficiency than installing lots of renewables


    I remember watching a demo video some company (I won't name them) put out for a new and magical solar thermal tube that's apparently much better than the old ones. They showed a house in Galway that they brought from a G rating to NZEB using only those panels


    The problem is they're massively overproducing energy to offset the losses, whereas it's much more beneficial to cut down on usage first. Then you'll need a vastly smaller amount of energy generation to cover your needs

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #187
    graememk
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    None of the articles/Discussions seem to even mention the non subsidised tariff.

    Seem to run down the rabbit hole of BER, caps etc.

    Of the Proposal

    Subsidised rate (CEP) - Needs to have limits, (Cash for ash is a great example) yearly Output is easily estimated, allowed to export 30% of total yearly generation. The months nov-Feb will have v little export anyway. BER is understandable. Bit like the current SEAI grants.

    Non Subsidised (CEG)- Minimum set by CRU, Suggested Average wholesale rate, maybe a bit less, Suppliers can pay more if they want. - Im sure they can set their own limits ( bit like energia and the night rate limit)


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    #188
    phester28
    Registered Users Posts: 453 ✭✭phester28


    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    I'm not really sure what people's issues with a minimum BER requirement is, it pays off much better to spend money on energy efficiency than installing lots of renewables


    I remember watching a demo video some company (I won't name them) put out for a new and magical solar thermal tube that's apparently much better than the old ones. They showed a house in Galway that they brought from a G rating to NZEB using only those panels


    The problem is they're massively overproducing energy to offset the losses, whereas it's much more beneficial to cut down on usage first. Then you'll need a vastly smaller amount of energy generation to cover your needs

    Your info is outdated and a BER is nothing more than a guesstimate with moving goalposts. See the new version of Deap software details

    In my case as they mention (thusfar) BER B2 minimum rate for FIT (hold the CEG CEP as I've not seen the detail yet). I have spent large to take my house from an area typical of g to a C1 including the solar. There is nothing more I can do without the likes of external cladding which would cost in the region of 10-15k and would save a rough 100 euro per year. Meanwhile my solar has the potential to sell back or as it is currently give to the grid for free.


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    #189
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    phester28 wrote: »
    In my case as they mention (thusfar) BER B2 minimum rate for FIT (hold the CEG CEP as I've not seen the detail yet). I have spent large to take my house from an area typical of g to a C1 including the solar. There is nothing more I can do....

    You don’t need to do anything else. You will be eligible with a BER of C and in any case I think the BER requirement only applies to CEP, not CEG.

    The reference to BER B is about other schemes, not this one.


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    #190
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,837 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    KCross wrote: »
    You don’t need to do anything else. You will be eligible with a BER of C and in any case I think the BER requirement only applies to CEP, not CEG.

    The reference to BER B is about other schemes, not this one.

    Actually I think they do mention that the minimum BER will increase over time

    That's probably for the higher CEP payment though

    Also, adding solar may improve your BER rating (seems to be some debate around this) so you may still be eligible if the BER is high enough afterwards

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #191
    graememk
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 5,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭graememk


    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    Actually I think they do mention that the minimum BER will increase over time

    That's probably for the higher CEP payment though

    Also, adding solar may improve your BER rating (seems to be some debate around this) so you may still be eligible if the BER is high enough afterwards

    Adding solar does increase your ber rating, by how much is a different story.

    Also if it's like most other grants etc, once you're in, you're in, requirements may change for new entrants as they go forward.

    For instance, I think I can kick my house up from a D1 to a c3 by changing a boiler that's rarely used (as it's old) - and that's just changing it to a standard, but newer one, nevermind a condensing one.

    If I really wanted to, I could even get a second hand one from done deal, as long as it has the proper labels/markings (ie Grant) as people are switching them out to go for condensing ones.

    4kwp of solar would do the same.


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    #192
    irishchris
    Registered Users Posts: 3,169 ✭✭✭irishchris


    Yes solar definitely improves your ber. Got a ber report done prior to install of 2.88kwp and was a c2. Same assessor did ber after install few weeks later and new result was a b2


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    #193
    air
    Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    With CEP limited to 30% of 4kWp, it sounds like a complete waste of everyone's time unless it's a very generous rate, which I don't expect it would be.

    Even at that, the money spent on administering it would be better spent elsewhere I think.

    Just force the market to offer a fixed commercially viable rate for export within the existing regulations which are already fit for purpose and be done with it.

    I don't think Eamon Ryan has any idea what he's talking about in terms of the grid reinforcement required (no change there).
    The ESB Networks CEO has been very bullish for the past few years on their ability to deliver multiples of the current loads to domestic consumers to facilitate EVs and heat pumps.

    If sufficient PV is ever installed to cause very low daytime wholesale rates, tariffs will be adjusted to reflect that and usage will also move, mitigating a large part of the problem.

    Also PV is trivial to throttle and export control devices could be easily installed if required.
    We are a decade at least away from domestic penetration of a level that would cause any issues whatsoever I believe though, even allowing for the current infrastructure.


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    #194
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    air wrote: »
    With CEP limited to 30% of 4kWp, it sounds like a complete waste of everyone's time unless it's a very generous rate, which I don't expect it would be.

    The only indication we have on the rate for CEP is this wording:
    The CEP is being paid on exported electricity and is targeted to be at a rate that is below the retail rates paid by the prosumer, which encourages self-consumption.

    I've no idea what that would equate to. What are "retail rates paid by the prosumer"?


    air wrote: »
    Just force the market to offer a fixed commercially viable rate for export within the existing regulations which are already fit for purpose and be done with it.

    Thats basically the CEG, which is in the proposal. It is fixed and mandatory. It's a viable rate based on market rates and the providers have to manage it themselves without any supports or grants etc.

    Thats basically everything you are asking for?


    The thinking around the CEP (which is a topup payment on top of CEG) is that there is too much of a gap between install cost and payback and that if they dont put some incentives in place we will remain where we are, which is very low uptake.

    I dont know if thats a valid viewpoint or not. The uptake of the current grant system seemed to be quite good but maybe the numbers, relatively speaking, are still not high enough to make a dent in carbon footprint. I dont know.

    With the SEAI capital grant and a CEP then people might take it more seriously and we'd get higher uptake rates. At least thats their hope anyway.

    Its a hard one to call but I'd say if we just went with the CEG (lets say 7c/kWh for your export) and no other supports there would be tacid uptake of that. Its fine if you do a DIY install and have a "cheap" system but the current install prices, before grant, are not exactly cheap and its not from lack of competition as there is a long list of approved installers. So, what do you do? Do nothing isnt an option. Providing additional capped incentives for a fixed time period seems reasonable if it results in people installing some panels?


    Personally, I think there is way too much focus on the 30% thing within CEP in this thread... you get paid for all your export within CEG, you cant ask for much more than that really.... the CEP is just an added sweetner to get new people onboard.

    Anyone with an opinion should be submitting it to the department. No point in complaining later or complaining on boards! :)


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    #195
    air
    Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    Yes, you've interpreted me correctly and I think in essence the CEP has just muddied the waters and created confusion.

    It's going to be applicable on such a small amount of export (say 1200 units per annum) that it's impact on ROI is going to be very small.

    As such it should be abandoned in the interests of keeping things more straightforward and easy to administer and evaluate.


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    #196
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    air wrote: »
    Yes, you've interpreted me correctly and I think in essence the CEP has just muddied the waters and created confusion.

    It's going to be applicable on such a small amount of export (say 1200 units per annum) that it's impact on ROI is going to be very small.

    A such it should be abandoned in the interests of keeping things more straightforward and easy to administer and evaluate.

    The less that SEAI have to do with the whole thing the better, thats for sure.


    The 1200 units though would add up over 10-15 years. That could be 10-20% of the install cost right there. Depends on what the rate is.


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    #197
    mp3guy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,954 ✭✭✭mp3guy


    Most of the discussion here is all about the bottom line. Anyone considering the carbon impact of encouraging more micro generation? It's a rare sight on the EirGrid dashboard for renewable generation to account entirely for demand for an extended period of time even in ideal solar and wind conditions, so you can assume anytime you're feeding in power you're saving the average (something like 352 gCO2/kWh?) EirGrid amount of carbon, on whatever you consume and export for your neighbours to use.

    Eventually the grid will be decarbonized, but there're many tonnes of CO2 to be saved in the mean time. Just hope folks don't spitefully avoid a higher annual yield array because they won't get a few extra cents.


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    #198
    air
    Registered Users Posts: 2,822 ✭✭✭air


    Solar is pretty unique in that excluding the installation costs there isn't the kind of economies of scale that you get with other forms of renewable generation.
    From a carbon perspective, domestic generation compares very favourably with larger scale commercial generation.
    There are basically zero transmission and distribution losses to contend with.

    For roof mounted systems, there is no additional support structure required which saves on materials, and there is already a grid connection so no overhead there either.
    There is also no land use impact which is quite significant also.

    In an ideal world we would see domestic generation that would at the very least match daytime domestic base load. This would require next to no infrastructural upgrades and provide excellent returns from a carbon perspective.

    Ideally then if there is more commercial scale solar generation coming on line, this will drive down daytime energy rates which should lead to low cost daytime electricity in summer especially, which would be great for charging EVs for example.


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    #199
    blobert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭blobert


    KCross wrote: »
    The only indication we have on the rate for CEP is this wording:
    The CEP is being paid on exported electricity and is targeted to be at a rate that is below the retail rates paid by the prosumer, which encourages self-consumption.

    I've no idea what that would equate to. What are "retail rates paid by the prosumer"?





    Thats basically the CEG, which is in the proposal. It is fixed and mandatory. It's a viable rate based on market rates and the providers have to manage it themselves without any supports or grants etc.

    Thats basically everything you are asking for?


    The thinking around the CEP (which is a topup payment on top of CEG) is that there is too much of a gap between install cost and payback and that if they dont put some incentives in place we will remain where we are, which is very low uptake.

    I dont know if thats a valid viewpoint or not. The uptake of the current grant system seemed to be quite good but maybe the numbers, relatively speaking, are still not high enough to make a dent in carbon footprint. I dont know.

    With the SEAI capital grant and a CEP then people might take it more seriously and we'd get higher uptake rates. At least thats their hope anyway.

    Its a hard one to call but I'd say if we just went with the CEG (lets say 7c/kWh for your export) and no other supports there would be tacid uptake of that. Its fine if you do a DIY install and have a "cheap" system but the current install prices, before grant, are not exactly cheap and its not from lack of competition as there is a long list of approved installers. So, what do you do? Do nothing isnt an option. Providing additional capped incentives for a fixed time period seems reasonable if it results in people installing some panels?


    Personally, I think there is way too much focus on the 30% thing within CEP in this thread... you get paid for all your export within CEG, you cant ask for much more than that really.... the CEP is just an added sweetner to get new people onboard.

    Anyone with an opinion should be submitting it to the department. No point in complaining later or complaining on boards! :)

    Thanks very much for the summary of it that's made it a bit clearer.

    You'd given some good advice on my thread here about my plans for a new build with up to 30kw of solar panels.

    I'm trying to work out if the system goes ahead as outlined whether it would be worth doing, as the amount of panels I was going to put up was always going to be based on the FiT system available to try and maximise this.


    I see no mention in the public consultation document about increasing the limits for export, am I missing that?

    We're going to have a 3 phase connection for the new house so as it stands we can export up to 11kW I think. Some of the previous discussion of this suggested they were going to increase this up to 25-50kW to allow greater microgeneration export (without the current level of complication if you wanted to operate on this scale) but is this now not the case?

    I'm guessing if I want to keep things simple I should be installing up the the limit of microgeneration export and maybe a little beyond to maximise tariffs.

    So let's say they leave the export limit at 11kW for 3 phase. I install 15kW of panels and limit my export to 11kW.

    As per current document I would be getting paid for all exported units under CEG (lets say it's 5c per kwH) and then a bonus of the extra CEP on 30% of my exported power. Am I understanding this correctly?

    For a lot of the year I'm likely to self consume nearly all the power generated but in summer months I'll probably be producing a big excess.

    Hypothetically if my system was cranking out the full 15kW while I was away in the summer I'd be losing the additional 4kW of power (as this could not be exported) but otherwise be getting paid for the 11kw.

    So am I right in saying the sensible thing from a financial perspective would be to install up to, and maybe a little beyond the export limit?

    And when I submit comment on it, the main thing I should be suggesting, as has been suggested my many others here, is that they should be increasing the export limits from their very low levels?

    Do you think it would be worth compiling a basic list of what people are looking for here and have a bunch of us submit the same observations? I'd imagine this would be more likely to have impact if they get a lot of submissions all asking for the same thing.

    Thanks again!


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    #200
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    blobert wrote: »
    I see no mention in the public consultation document about increasing the limits for export, am I missing that?

    We're going to have a 3 phase connection for the new house so as it stands we can export up to 11kW I think. Some of the previous discussion of this suggested they were going to increase this up to 25-50kW to allow greater microgeneration export (without the current level of complication if you wanted to operate on this scale) but is this now not the case?

    I'm guessing if I want to keep things simple I should be installing up the the limit of microgeneration export and maybe a little beyond to maximise tariffs.

    So let's say they leave the export limit at 11kW for 3 phase. I install 15kW of panels and limit my export to 11kW.

    The consultation document does "allow" you to go all the way to 50kWp and get paid for that export but it doesnt say anything about the process changing in relation to the 11kW(on 3-phase) limit for NC6. Personally, I dont think they'll change that but you never know. If they dont change it it means a more complex process for installing anything beyond 11kW. Probably better in that case to just do as you say... 15kW, imited to 11kW export.

    blobert wrote: »
    As per current document I would be getting paid for all exported units under CEG (lets say it's 5c per kwH) and then a bonus of the extra CEP on 30% of my exported power. Am I understanding this correctly?

    Correct, although see comment below about 2011 requirement which might be in play.
    blobert wrote: »
    So am I right in saying the sensible thing from a financial perspective would be to install up to, and maybe a little beyond the export limit?

    Yes, but I wouldnt do anything until we get all the details. This is still only a consultation. Anything/everything is up for change. The scheme is supposed to be live for 1 Jul so you wont have to wait long and in any case you wont get CEP if you install right now.... it HAS to be installed after 30 Jun to qualify.

    There is also the issue that the existing grant scheme from SEAI (which will still be in play after this, just at a reduced level) has a stipulation right now that your house has to be owned/occupied prior to 1 Jan 2011 to qualify for grant (and hence also CEP). If that stupid requirement remains it might rule out CEP entirely for you. Again, its an unknown, until we see final detail.

    Since your house is new, I'd make a submission around that 2011 requirement being removed if I were you! ;)


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    #201
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,837 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Regarding the export limit, they do seem to be saying anything up to 50kW can qualify as a microgenerator

    It seems the process for up to 6kW single phase or 11kW 3 phase is quite straightforward to get connected as it requires no changes to the existing grid

    Exporting above this power is feasible but requires more documentation. The current process seems to require a lot in terms of certification and various power calculations which would require a qualified electrical engineer to work out. It also seems to be subject to an auction system and has a fairly expensive depoist

    I'm hoping they simplify the process a bit for the 11kW-50kW generators and remove the auction bit. I'm pretty sure the grid can handle a few 50kW generators without disrupting the gas power stations profits

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #202
    idc
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭idc


    cruisey1987 wrote: »
    It seems the process for up to 6kW single phase or 11kW 3 phase is quite straightforward to get connected as it requires no changes to the existing grid

    Not quite, if you read the public consultation the ESB state:

    An assessment of impacts on the distribution network with higher proportions of microgenerators. ESB Networks Asset Management has carried out an initial analysis of these impacts and has concluded “that the network can currently accommodate widespread micro-generation penetration at levels up to 3kWp (rural) and 4kWp (urban). At lower levels of penetration, 6kWp/11kWp can be provided and may result in some levels of reinforcement. At higher penetration levels of 6kWp/11kWp, or at greater than 11kWp, an individual system study is required for each connection assessing associated work and costs.”


    At least people with solar or getting solar now should be okay as we're at the low level stages :)


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    #203
    Gazzler82
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭Gazzler82


    Any mention in the Doc about Revenue looking for their pound of flesh??

    Also my smart meter was uninstalled after I switched to day/night as the ESB networks person said they didn’t know if the “smart” meter can manage day/night :|

    So one might have to make a choice to export or keep day/night. If you have an EV i suspect it isn’t a choice at all


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    #204
    the_amazing_raisin
    Registered Users Posts: 10,837 ✭✭✭✭the_amazing_raisin


    Gazzler82 wrote: »
    Any mention in the Doc about Revenue looking for their pound of flesh??

    Also my smart meter was uninstalled after I switched to day/night as the ESB networks person said they didn’t know if the “smart” meter can manage day/night :|

    So one might have to make a choice to export or keep day/night. If you have an EV i suspect it isn’t a choice at all


    No, I guess most suppliers will simply credit your account, so likely your bills will decrease over a year rather than receiving actual cash


    Unless you're exporting so much that you're making money of course


    I think there's an issue with the smart meters that they can't do day/night. I suspect this is more in the process of ESB checking the readings, as the meters themselves can send updates as often as every 30 mins AFAIK


    It should hopefully be fixed soon

    "The internet never fails to misremember" - Sebastian Ruiz, aka Frost



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    #205
    slave1
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,693 Mod ✭✭✭✭slave1


    Gazzler82 wrote: »
    Any mention in the Doc about Revenue looking for their pound of flesh??

    Also my smart meter was uninstalled after I switched to day/night as the ESB networks person said they didn’t know if the “smart” meter can manage day/night :|

    So one might have to make a choice to export or keep day/night. If you have an EV i suspect it isn’t a choice at all

    How would Revenue be involved, it's not a trade and hardly Income to be taxed, if they did then we'll all have heavy Capital Allowances to use up!!!!

    My stuff for sale on Adverts inc. outdoor furniture, roof box and EDDI

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    #206
    MicktheMan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭MicktheMan


    slave1 wrote: »
    How would Revenue be involved, it's not a trade and hardly Income to be taxed, if they did then we'll all have heavy Capital Allowances to use up!!!!

    I believe there was talk of Belgium having some sort of tax on PV there.


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    #207
    drdidlittle
    Registered Users Posts: 402 ✭✭drdidlittle


    Vat?


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    #208
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    Gazzler82 wrote: »
    Any mention in the Doc about Revenue looking for their pound of flesh??

    No there isnt, nor would it be worth revenue's time to administer collecting €20 from micro-generators each year.

    Gazzler82 wrote: »
    Also my smart meter was uninstalled after I switched to day/night as the ESB networks person said they didn’t know if the “smart” meter can manage day/night :|

    The back office systems were initially only setup to manage the 24hr tariffs first. They were adding the day/night tariffs second and there will be a 3rd tariff and now the export stats as well.

    The smart meter has all the capability already, its the back office systems need updating at ESB and the providers.


    Its supposed to be done by the time this project is up and running. It will be a complete farce if its not.


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    #209
    MAULBROOK
    Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭MAULBROOK


    From ESB Networks.

    Thank you for your email.

    Please see link below to the smart meter section of our website for your information.
    https://www.esbnetworks.ie/existing-connection/meters-readings/smart-meter-upgrade

    Currently whereas the smart meters are being installed, they are not smart 'enabled' and can only facilitate a 24hr tariff. We expect the meters to be smart enabled in the coming months ( although currently all smart metering activity is suspended due to level 5 restrictions ).

    Currently we are only approaching customers with 24hr tariffs to swap out the meters, essentially replacing like with like just at the moment.

    It is not possible to request an early installation. These installations are being done by both ourselves and contractors working on our behalf and you can expect to hear from us when we are in your area. We can certainly note your preference for a smart meter at the earliest possible opportunity, and I have noted this on your MPRN
    Please contact me again if I can be of further assistance.
    Kind regards,
    Jane

    Second Responce

    Thank you for your reply.

    Apologies if I was unclear in my reply. My understanding is that once the smart meter is enabled, it will be able to accommodate whatever packages are offered by the supplier. So certainly a smart meter will be able to facilitate a dual tariff in time, but just not at the moment in the short term.
    Kind regards,
    Jane

    And finally

    Thank you for your email.

    I am writing to confirm that it would be early 2022, if not earlier, that a Smart Meter would in stalled in your property. As you can imagine this is a very large project.
    Please contact me again if I can be of further assistance.
    Kind regards,
    Jenny


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    #210
    MAULBROOK
    Registered Users Posts: 1,470 ✭✭✭MAULBROOK


    Looks like i will have some time check my options RE FIT


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    #211
    KCross
    Registered Users Posts: 12,070 ✭✭✭✭KCross


    MAULBROOK wrote: »
    Looks like i will have some time check my options RE FIT

    Those applying for FiT are supposedly to get priority install of Smart meters. Its pointless otherwise. Covid might cause issues but I dont think it should since the meter is usually accessible outside and its just a case of swapping it out. One man job.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=116144653&postcount=158


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