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Legalise abortion

12467…24

Comments

  • #152
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    choice.

    that is what it comes down to - you have to trust people to make an informed choice

    it will or will not be their child - not yours.
    they have to leave with it and the joy or burden of the child - noy you.
    abortion happens - forcing women to travel just makes it worse and is a terrible thing to advocate

    you can be anti abortion and pro choice - that would be my stance.


  • #153
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I should trust people whether or not to kill another person or not?

    Why can't we do this in real life?


  • #154
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I should trust people whether or not to kill another person or not?

    Why can't we do this in real life?

    what? :confused:
    you should.....

    we can and should..... and mostly do


  • #155
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    We trust people to choose whether or not to kill eachother without making it illegal?

    No... we make it illegal.


  • #156
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    we trust people not to kill each other - some do and that is why there is a punishment

    what is your point?


    this is about a choice or no choice - - it is not about pro life vs pro choice

    as i am pro life but pro choice also


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  • #157
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    My point is. I don't believe that someone elses right to life should be chosen by the mother.

    I don't believe that you can be pro-life, and then pro-choice over someone elses right to life, it doesn't make sense.


  • #158
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    i believe women should be able to choose

    they will always put thought into it

    it is their body

    the option of a choice is never bad

    it is not as if abortion doesnt happen numerous times a year by irish women - by having it illegal in ireland you are solving nothing
    you are making it hard on these women and achieving nothing

    you are achieving a blissful ignorance and holding your moral heads high while they hold their heads low in shame and danger in foreign or street abortions

    the choice effects the mother and the father and family alone
    it is not up to you or anyone else to dictate that chocie - it is their bodies and their choice


  • #159
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    SLUSK wrote: »
    Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

    I know of the book. It does indeed persuasively describe abortion as the weapon of class warfare that it is.
    SLUSK wrote: »
    A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

    Legalise all drugs so?


  • #160
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    studiorat wrote: »
    I'm saying abortion happens in this country. Whether it is legal or illegal seems somewhat moot. Considering there would seem to be no criminal penalty for it... Maybe hell and damnation is enough punishment?

    Why would anyone ever go to "hell" for having an abortion?
    Fugly wrote: »
    I know I ramble but as someone who is directly affected by the legality of abortion I can't fathom why it isn't a choice.

    Personally affected? Simply because you are a woman?
    Fugly wrote: »
    But if informed people want to abstain, great for them. However I don't want to die without ever having sex again. Sex is a healthy part of being a person in a healthy relationship. It is something to be enjoyed and cherished.

    You may have guessed I don't plan on having children, ever.

    Life is what happens when you're plans don't work out. Pregnancy is a consequence of sex. That has been dictated not by pro-life campaigners but by biology. It is indeed part of being human to overcome our biological limits using tools, but we are not entitled to do so by any and every dodgy means.


  • #161
    Fugly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Fugly


    No, not simply because I'm a woman. But I've been in the position of requiring an abortion. I used precautions, however these things will happen. And for the record I've already stated that before becoming sexually involved with a man I make it clear to him what I would choose if I do become pregnant. It's clearly a deal breaker regarding relationships for me.

    "dodgy means" I'm sorry do you mean dodgy as I had to leave my country to have it preformed or because it was elective?

    And just to clarify my position, I would like to be sterilized to prevent myself from being in this situation again, however due to my age I am unable to do so. I think abortions should be used as the last option, clearly prevention is better than the cure.


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  • #162
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    i believe women should be able to choose

    they will always put thought into it

    it is their body

    A foetus is not the womans body at all. Clicky here for why that is in my opinion.
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    the option of a choice is never bad

    If I was given the choice to let you live, or to kill you, would that choice never be bad?
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    it is not as if abortion doesnt happen numerous times a year by irish women - by having it illegal in ireland you are solving nothing
    you are making it hard on these women and achieving nothing

    Just because something happens doesn't mean that it is wrong or that it is not killing. Whether or not it happens elsewhere is wholly irrelevant to me, the fact that it is a social injustice to the unborn is something that drives me to be opposed to abortion.
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    you are achieving a blissful ignorance and holding your moral heads high while they hold their heads low in shame and danger in foreign or street abortions

    There is nothing ignorant about my position not to allow what is essentially infanticide in the womb to be legalised in Ireland. As for street abortions it is possible that these can be prevented by other means if we get adoptive programmes into full swing (government assistance for those who are going to keep their child) or a tighter police regime on the matter. Another potential solution is to increase sex ed classes and include all options as possible from contraception to abstinence.
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    the choice effects the mother and the father and family alone
    it is not up to you or anyone else to dictate that chocie - it is their bodies and their choice

    The choice kills the unborn. There is the unborn to be considered. That's why I think pro-choicers are denying human rights because they ignore the unborn.

    For me there are two sets of rights, maybe even three.

    1. The rights of the mother.
    2. The rights of the unborn.
    3. The rights of the father.

    The last is debatable. However when the rights of the mother and the unborn conflict, a compromise has to be made. That compromise for me is adoption.


  • #163
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    IMO, there's only one argument that needs saying, and that's, to paraphrase, get rosaries off ovaries.

    How about "get human rights off ovaries"?


  • #164
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Fugly wrote: »
    "dodgy means" I'm sorry do you mean dodgy as I had to leave my country to have it preformed or because it was elective?

    I consider abortion to be a dodgy means of overcoming biology.


  • #165
    Fugly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Fugly


    So by that do I understand that you regard all medicine dodgy.? It "interferes with biology" or is it simply procedures that you deem elective.


  • #166
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Fugly wrote: »
    So by that do I understand that you regard all medicine dodgy.? It "interferes with biology" or is it simply procedures that you deem elective.

    I imagine Hurin meant this particular example was dodgy (and indeed said only as much), not every method of interference.


  • #167
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Would it not be fair to say that both abortion and contraception have the same end, and thus promoting one and not the other may be slightly contradictory?


  • #168
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    turgon wrote: »
    Would it not be fair to say that both abortion and contraception have the same end, and thus promoting one and not the other may be slightly contradictory?

    I don't see how this could be the case:

    Contraception prevents a life from forming.
    Abortion destroys an already existent life.


  • #169
    freedom of info
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭freedom of info


    Andy-Pandy wrote: »
    I dont agree with your reasoning, but i do think women should have the option. If you want it you should be able to have it, if you dont, then dont.

    abortion topics are a no win situation, some people are blinkered to the effects on a mother after the procedure, most go batty and live regretting their decision, however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape, incest or where the life of the mother or child would be detrimental, i refer to medical problems such as cancer or where the child would have no quality of life, some would argue the churches teaching on the situation, a bunch of celibate fools dictating on something that they know nothing about.

    i am probably the only bloke on this forum that has been inside an abortion clinic, twice, i have no problem with it, my ex went off her head, also i have 2 kids under 17, i hate to think what it would have been like if i had four of them


  • #170
    freedom of info
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭freedom of info


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You consider me reasonable? That's news to me :)

    I'm personally pro-life, and by pro-life I mean everyones life. If my (hypothetical) partner (I'm single currently) life was endangered by a pregnancy. I would consider it far far more important to save one life than lose two. It is basically the only situation I can think that abortion would ever be justified. I believe it is our responsibility to protect human life. This applies in all cases. The case of the mother right down to the case of those who are on death row. As such I agree with Ireland's current stance but I do not agree that abortion is a choice rather it is only something that should be considered by medical staff in emergencies.

    your comment is fair and reasonable and i respect your opinion, but it really should not be anyones decision other than the mother of a potential abortion


  • #171
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    freedom of info wrote: »
    your comment is fair and reasonable and i respect your opinion, but it really should not be anyones decision other than the mother of a potential abortion

    So you're wheeling this out as an unquestionable dogma with nothing to back it up?


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  • #172
    allabouteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭allabouteve


    freedom of info wrote: »
    abortion topics are a no win situation, some people are blinkered to the effects on a mother after the procedure, most go batty and live regretting their decision,
    Source? Link?
    however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape, incest or where the life of the mother or child would be detrimental, i refer to medical problems such as cancer or where the child would have no quality of life,
    Who gets to decide that? And how do you legislate for it?
    some would argue the churches teaching on the situation, a bunch of celibate fools dictating on something that they know nothing about.
    I'm an atheist, but everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion.
    i am probably the only bloke on this forum that has been inside an abortion clinic, twice, i have no problem with it, my ex went off her head, also i have 2 kids under 17, i hate to think what it would have been like if i had four of them
    So should abortion be legalised for economic reasons as well as for ''being detrimental''?


  • #173
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    freedom of info wrote: »
    abortion topics are a no win situation, some people are blinkered to the effects on a mother after the procedure, most go batty and live regretting their decision

    Agreed. Post Abortion Syndrome is terrible, and all the help that is needed should be given. In addition full education on what happens during an abortion should be given to all those doing sex education, with full explanation of how the procedure is carried out so that they can make an educated decision.
    freedom of info wrote: »
    , however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape, incest

    Why?
    freedom of info wrote: »
    , some would argue the churches teaching on the situation, a bunch of celibate fools dictating on something that they know nothing about.

    As allabouteve rightly put it, there is a right to freedom of speech in this country and whether or not you like it people have a right to express their opinion surely?

    As for "celibate fools", I'm sure that Catholics have about as much to bring to the table on abortion as any other group in society. However, you fail to realise that other Christian churches whose leaders are not celibate have held largely the same view on abortion in Ireland.

    Many atheists and agnostics also oppose abortion.
    freedom of info wrote: »
    i am probably the only bloke on this forum that has been inside an abortion clinic, twice, i have no problem with it, my ex went off her head, also i have 2 kids under 17, i hate to think what it would have been like if i had four of them

    So? Just because you have no problem with it it must be okay for everyone else not to have a problem with it?
    freedom of info wrote: »
    your comment is fair and reasonable and i respect your opinion, but it really should not be anyones decision other than the mother of a potential abortion

    Why should it be anyones decision whether or not to kill another human being? I don't understand the reasoning behind this at all.


  • #174
    freedom of info
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭freedom of info


    allabouteve wrote: »
    Source? Link?

    Who gets to decide that? And how do you legislate for it?

    I'm an atheist, but everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion.
    So should abortion be legalised for economic reasons as well as for ''being detrimental''?


    what im saying is everyone should be entitled to make their own mind up, nobody should pass judgment on anyone else, after all we all have a brain, i am also an atheist, i rejected religion in my early 20's after having religion rammed down my throat from early childhood, up until recent times i was condemmed for expressing my opinions.

    at what point does the line have to be drawn? remember the early 80's, you couldnt buy a rubber in this country.


  • #175
    allabouteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭allabouteve


    freedom of info wrote: »
    what im saying is everyone should be entitled to make their own mind up, nobody should pass judgment on anyone else,

    And that is not acceptable for those who feel that abortion is equal to killing a human person.

    To people of that opinion, its legalised murder, something which no reasonable person would consider a matter for the individual conscience.

    For those who believe abortion is the taking of a human life, its the equivalent of saying you can murder who you like, if you've a bloody good reason for it.

    Not something a civilized society would condone.

    That is why the abortion debate is so huge and important, there are no half-measures in it.

    Its killing, or it isn't.


  • #176
    RABTMOUSE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭RABTMOUSE


    Abortions should be legalised in Ireland!!!!
    Come on people- how dare anyone tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their bodies/their lives.
    It is a FACT that thousands of Irish women travel abroad every year to have a termination. Not all of these women were irresponsible with contraception, statistics show that alot of these women used contraception and it failed. But to be honest- that's neither here nor there- it is each individuals choice if they want to become a parent or not. There are alot of factors to this, circumstance; relationship/financial/ or the age of a person or simply not wanting to become a parent.

    Abortion should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't have an abortion: simple.


  • #177
    Samson Hissing Specs
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Samson Hissing Specs


    freedom of info wrote: »
    however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape

    why? is the fetus any different?


  • #178
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    allabouteve wrote: »
    Its killing, or it isn't.

    Do you really believe it is that simple?

    So presumably you do not believe that abortion is permisssable where a woman's health is at risk on foot of the pregnancy? Or where she has a very low risk of death if she carries the foetus to term? Because killing a foetus would be a worse outcome than preserving the woman's health or in providing her with the best chance of survival?


  • #179
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    RABTMOUSE wrote: »
    Abortion should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't have an abortion: simple.

    Is it really that simple?

    Do you believe that the State has absolutely no interest in protecting the foetus in any way whatsoever, at any stage of development?


  • #180
    monellia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭monellia


    We can assume that pro-lifers value the preservation of the foetus’ life more than the damage that childbirth does to the mother’s body, as well as the effect this has on her life.

    Pro-lifers need to ask themselves:

    - Should people have a lawful obligation to donate their organs to people who need them in order to preserve life?

    - Should the state have the right to take a kidney from me so that the life of another can be preserved?

    If you are consistent in your beliefs as a pro-lifer (i.e. if you value the life of another over the damage this does to my body), it should follow that you believe the state should have the right to take a kidney from me so that the life of another can be preserved.

    No one has the right to life at the expense of another person’s body, soz.


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  • #181
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    monellia wrote: »
    If you are consistent in your beliefs as a pro-lifer (i.e. if you value the life of another over the damage this does to my body), it should follow that you believe the state should have the right to take a kidney from me so that the life of another can be preserved.

    Erm, not really. The issue all hinges on liberty. The pro-choicers say the foetus has no personal liberty, the pro-lifers say it does. It all really comes down to those two irreconcilable viewpoints. It has to do with the right to life, and to whom it is applied, not the health preference given to the welfare of the mother and the child.

    In Mathematics one has situations where something cant be proved, and sometimes it has been proven that this something cant be proved. The abortion topic is as close an example of this in the real world as far as I can gauge. Although I used to take a side on this issue I don't really anymore. I think there is no answer.

    The solution then is whether to err on the side of safety (be pro-life) or allow people to decide the issue themselves (pro-choice). Once again I just fundamentally believe there is no "right" answer here.


  • #182
    Valmont
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Excellent post Eliot. I feel the same way re the irreconcilable viewpoints in that there is no right answer and there probably never will be. I would be among the few to err on the side of caution and I would consider myself pro-life, in that I value liberty and, personally, I find denying someone their liberty before they can assert it themselves to be unfair. To be honest I tend to avoid thinking about this topic because I am always questioning myself and never seem to make my mind up completely.


  • #183
    louisa200
    Closed Accounts Posts: 78 ✭✭louisa200


    I , as a woman, think the cells of an embyro up to four months, do not consitiute life, and up to nine months, whereby the life of the embryo and or the life of the human carrying it, is unviable, should be allowed abortion. All cases outwith this should be taken on a case to case basis..


  • #184
    Valmont
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭Valmont


    louisa200 wrote: »
    I , as a woman
    Do you think that being a woman entitles you to a better insight on the subject?
    louisa200 wrote: »
    and up to nine months, whereby the life of the embryo and or the life of the human carrying it, is unviable, should be allowed abortion.
    I don't understand this part at all. What do you mean?


  • #185
    994
    Closed Accounts Posts: 911 ✭✭✭994


    RABTMOUSE wrote: »
    Abortions should be legalised in Ireland!!!!
    Come on people- how dare anyone tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their bodies/their lives.
    And the foetus' body? The foetus' life
    It is a FACT that thousands of Irish women travel abroad every year to have a termination.
    So? Lots of Irish men travel abroad to have sex with Thai teenagers every year, just because people do something doesn't mean it should be allowed.
    it is each individuals choice if they want to become a parent or not.
    Yes, and for a man, that choice is to have sex or not; they have no getout clause afterwards.
    Abortion should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't have an abortion: simple.
    "Murder should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't commit murder: simple."


  • #186
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Can we legistlate for the terms of abortion which are legal in this country so there are then offical proceedures and those women do not have to travel or endure a stillbirth.


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  • #187
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    Valmont wrote: »
    Do you think that being a woman entitles you to a better insight on the subject?

    While I hate that prefix often used by women when 'telling' men what the law should be, i think that, given the abortion issue affects women disproportionatley to men (to say the least!), they actually do have a better insight into certain aspects of the issue.

    However, it does not mean that their substantive veiw as to whether it should be permissable, and if so, then when, carries any more value than a man's veiw.


  • #188
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    994 wrote: »
    "Murder should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't commit murder: simple."

    That analogy is and never has been helpful. Perhaps you are just trying to highlight the poinltessness of RABTMOUSE's 'if you dont like it, dont have one' statement, but for so many reasons, the murder analogy is fallacious.


  • #189
    MackDeToaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 330 ✭✭MackDeToaster


    994 wrote: »
    And the foetus' body? The foetus' life

    The foetus is a part of the woman's body, it is not independent. You might as well say the life of a finger, the body of a nail.

    But of course the difference is that the foetus has the potential to be self-aware, and from what I understand that potential becomes emergent from about the 22nd week or so. After that point, I would have serious doubts regarding abortion, with the caveats of the mothers health in mind, both physical and mental.

    However, prior to that, I give would give the foetus no more consideration than I would a group of any other cells. Perhaps in the past when humanity wasn't so successful, there might have been a greater imperative to save every cell and potential 'life', but in todays overpopulated world I don't think so, and when science is approaching the point where even a single cell has the potential to become life, then even less so. Are we going to have to try to save ever skin cell, every hair, for fear that it is loss of life ? Where will the line be drawn ?


  • #190
    monellia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭monellia


    994 wrote: »
    And the foetus' body? The foetus' life
    A foetus has just as much “life” as a cancerous tumour. They both metabolise and they both have unique DNA. I guess we shouldn’t remove tumours either, eh?
    Yes, and for a man, that choice is to have sex or not; they have no getout clause afterwards.
    Choosing to have sex means you accept the possibility of impregnation, you don’t accept impregnation. When you get into a car, you accept the possibility of dying, you don’t accept your death. Having sex shouldn’t force you into a contract to have a child.
    Murder should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't commit murder: simple.
    Refusing to let someone use your body to live is not the same as murder.

    Bunch of cellular tissue, gtfo out of my body.


  • #191
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    monellia wrote: »
    A foetus has just as much “life” as a cancerous tumour. They both metabolise and they both have unique DNA. I guess we shouldn’t remove tumours either, eh?
    .

    So on that basis, presumably you have no difficulty with terminating a foetus at 39 weeks or during the first stage of labour, yes?


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  • #192
    994
    Closed Accounts Posts: 911 ✭✭✭994


    monellia wrote: »
    A foetus has just as much “life” as a cancerous tumour. They both metabolise and they both have unique DNA. I guess we shouldn’t remove tumours either, eh?.
    Tumours do not have unique DNA; they may have a tiny mutation in a few bases but not comparable to a fetus.
    Choosing to have sex means you accept the possibility of impregnation, you don’t accept impregnation. When you get into a car, you accept the possibility of dying, you don’t accept your death. Having sex shouldn’t force you into a contract to have a child.
    Virtually all women who have abortions are not doing so because they wish to avoid the vagaries of pregnancy and labour; it's because they don't want to have to have and raise a child.
    Refusing to let someone use your body to live is not the same as murder.
    Wait, so a few sentences ago a fetus had as much life as a cancerous tumour; now it's a "someone"?
    MackDeToaster wrote: »
    The foetus is a part of the woman's body, it is not independent. You might as well say the life of a finger, the body of a nail.
    It's actually quite separate, and lives more like a parasite than an organ.
    But of course the difference is that the foetus has the potential to be self-aware, and from what I understand that potential becomes emergent from about the 22nd week or so.
    It's hard to know what "self-awareness" even means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_brain_development_timeline has brain structures appearing in week 5; I would not oppose abortion prior to this.
    However, prior to that, I give would give the foetus no more consideration than I would a group of any other cells. Perhaps in the past when humanity wasn't so successful, there might have been a greater imperative to save every cell and potential 'life', but in todays overpopulated world I don't think so, and when science is approaching the point where even a single cell has the potential to become life, then even less so. Are we going to have to try to save ever skin cell, every hair, for fear that it is loss of life ? Where will the line be drawn ?
    The line will be drawn at brain development, it's the only logical place. As for "in the past when humanity wasn't so successful", infanticide was very common, because the weak couldn't be tolerated.


  • #193
    TanD
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 ✭TanD


    I don't agree that by legalising abortion you are getting rid of potential criminals, all people have the potential to kill within themselves, I do believe that a woman should be entitled to have an abortion if she wants to, the morning after pill is given away in Ireland and to me, that is killing a potential baby.


  • #194
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    MackDeToaster wrote: »
    The foetus is a part of the woman's body, it is not independent. You might as well say the life of a finger, the body of a nail.
    That's is not technically correct. A foetus is biologically independent of a woman, however it requires an environment to survive that at present only a human uterus can provide, just as if you were to eject an adult human to the vacuum of space, he/she would not survive very long.
    But of course the difference is that the foetus has the potential to be self-aware, and from what I understand that potential becomes emergent from about the 22nd week or so.
    Sorry, but such criteria are very dangerous. To begin with you have effectively dehumanized anyone who is not self-aware; from the severely mentally handicapped through to comatose patients. Of course, you could start introducing multiple exceptions to your rule, but I would think the need to do that simply demonstrates that you don't have a very cogent argument to begin with. Also dehumanization is just a self-serving device for those who don't have the stomach of their convictions, IMO.

    In my mind the only valid argument I've ever come across for abortion is that ultimately it is morally wrong to coerce one person to put themselves in harms way to aid another. Otherwise we would consider it acceptable to harvest organs from doners without their consent, as long as it didn't kill them.

    So, it is an independent human being; only in need of the right environment to survive. However, the right to life does not necessarily supersede all other rights, so abortion certainly could be morally permissible.

    However, as I've grown older, I've come to the conclusion that I really don't support abortion on the basis of this whole "woman's right to choose" malarky. Why? Because, even if abortion is moral, men don't get the same option but still have to suffer the consequences that women can shirk, long after the umbilical cord is cut. And I'd prefer not to support such hypocrisy.


  • #195
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    TanD wrote: »
    I don't agree that by legalising abortion you are getting rid of potential criminals
    The OP was proposing a rather ham-fisted approach at eugenics, based upon sociological considerations. Abortion would not be very viable as a means of doing this.

    Encouraging sterilization within potentially anti-social demographics (e.g. a council flat if you get the snip) while making it less attractive for them to breed would be more efficient.


  • #196
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Ive skimmed through the epic pages of this thread and its nearly, well it is really comical.

    You have pro choice people who want to kill of future criminals but cant define a criminal, and yet many would consider abortion a crime so in effect they would have had themselves aborted.

    Then you have people saying the right to life is not absolute, but they dont quite come out and say that if you can end a pregnancy then theres no reason why you shouldnt be able to take the life of your child as it is a life but its life isnt guaranteed.

    Then you have pro lifers who are pro life out of begrudgery that only a woman can end a pregnancy so they want no body to be able to end a pregnany.

    Then you have a number of people still arguing the toss of when it becomes a life when you may as well be asking how many angels are on the head of a pin,life is a continuum.

    Honestly, no one will ever ever find an answer to this.


  • #197
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    look we not a holy ireland anymore and the holy marys can feck off,people have been travelling abroad for years for abortion so i coundnt care if they did legalise it,its their own choice,im sure they are aware of the psychologial aftermath and they are adults to do their own choice,end of..


  • #198
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Honestly, no one will ever ever find an answer to this.

    You were wrong.

    In came Fred83 and now we have an answer.

    /thread


  • #199
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Then you have pro lifers who are pro life out of begrudgery that only a woman can end a pregnancy so they want no body to be able to end a pregnany.

    How is it begrudgery to want people to respect life?


  • #200
    metrovelvet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Jakkass wrote: »
    How is it begrudgery to want people to respect life?

    Its not about respecting life for some [note some]. Its about equality, so that if a man cant abort his child then a woman shouldnt be able to either.


  • #201
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    metrovelvet wrote: »
    Its not about respecting life for some [note some]. Its about equality, so that if a man cant abort his child then a woman shouldnt be able to either.

    I would say a very very small some. Most people who would be pro-life are concerned with the right to life.


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