Norwegian air

basill · 19-04-2020 4:18pm

If Pprune is to be believed OSM is 50% owned by Norwegian. It is unclear who has the remaining shares. Norwegian has no cash to pay any wages - preumably to OSM (or so Norwegian are saying). This would imply Norwegian UK is technically insolvent. This then has implications for its AOC under CAA rules - albeit under a pre-covid climate so time will tell if these rules get relaxed given the lack of flying. Whether they will meet the UK Covid Employer scheme rules remains to be seen. A quick google would suggest that OSM as the "employer" would have to apply for any covid wage subsidy payments?

IngazZagni · 20-04-2020 1:34pm

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/four-staffing-units-norwegian-air-112028869.html

Various subsidiary’s of Norwegian have filed for bankruptcy as well as Norwegian terminating contracts with OSM and Rishworths which if I understand correctly means that some 4,700 of the ~6,700 pilots and cabin crew have now been made fully redundant.
This is a last ditch effort to save Norwegian and it looks like they will try and go back to their roots and be a Norwegian centric airline again.

My thoughts go out to all the staff affected, of which I know many Irish will be impacted by this news too.

Locker10a · 20-04-2020 1:39pm

IngazZagni wrote: »

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/four-staffing-units-norwegian-air-112028869.html

Various subsidiary’s of Norwegian have filed for bankruptcy as well as Norwegian terminating contracts with OSM and Rishworths which if I understand correctly means that some 4,700 of the ~6,700 pilots and cabin crew have now been made fully redundant.
This is a last ditch effort to save Norwegian and it looks like they will try and go back to their roots and be a Norwegian centric airline again.

My thoughts go out to all the staff affected, of which I know many Irish will be impacted by this news too.

It’s quite confusing, so 4 of their owned HR agencies, through whom they employed their staff have gone bankrupt? Do I have that correct ?
I would imagine if they survive or are bailed out, they will then just re-employ these staff ?

IngazZagni · 20-04-2020 1:47pm

Locker10a wrote: »

It’s quite confusing, so 4 of their owned HR agencies, through whom they employed their staff have gone bankrupt? Do I have that correct ?
I would imagine if they survive or are bailed out, they will then just re-employ these staff ?

From what I understand is that Norwegians direct subsidiaries in Sweden and Denmark have declared bankruptcy. Norwegian themselves have terminated pilot and cabin crew contracts via OSM and Richworths.

Looks theyll need other Governments to save those arms of the company. Norway appears to be looking after the Norwegian arm of it.

troyzer · 20-04-2020 2:07pm

The plan is for Norweigan to restructure its current debt into equity in order to unlock government loans.

This will completely wipe out any existing shareholders. Norweigan are circling the drain at the moment.

Tenzor07 · 27-04-2020 3:39pm

Norwegian basically going to turn into a local/regional airline for the next 2 years if they survive.

Dunno what they will do with their fleet with only a handful operating...

Interesting times for that airline:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-04-27/norwegian-proposes-debt-restructuring-that-will-wipe-out-owners

john boye · 28-04-2020 1:03am

Norwegional?

Rawr · 28-04-2020 8:58am

john boye wrote: »

Norwegional?

Over here in Norway they are (or were pre-COVID) used an awful lot for domestic routes. So in and around Scandinavia there's still plenty of demand for them.

They for the most part competed with SAS on nearly every regional route, and for some cities offered a lot of frequency. On previous trips I've found myself often selecting Norwegian over SAS because their domestic product was often better than what SAS had to offer.

In many cases the only difference was that Norwegian tended to be cheaper, while SAS would offer one checked bag and a hot drink included in the price. More often than not, the Norwegian flight was plenty good without the free coffee...especially if I was only on a day-trip for work.

Ignoring all of their international woes, Norwegian have also been a good regional airline.

Tenger · 28-04-2020 4:04pm

Indeed. Here in Ireland (and the UK) they are seen as a low cost long haul airline. They have been operating for decades but weren’t well known outside Scandinavia/Central Europe.

basill · 28-04-2020 4:53pm

Norway - member of EEA but not EU. Picks and chooses which EU laws it wishes to incorporate into its own legislation. Avails of 5th freedom rights, EU traffic rights and free movement of trade etc.

Norwegian Airlines - is able to benefit of all of the above. And when it suits set up EU based subsidaries in member states availing of tax breaks for aircraft purchases/leases/cheaper labour through intermediaries etc.

All of the above has been undertaken within the prevailing law and against a backdrop of some of the lowest fuel costs the industry has seen and yet they haven't been able to turn a profit.

Irish Steve · 28-04-2020 4:55pm

FTP wrote: »

There is an argument to be made that they should be let go to the wall.

Flags of convenience and the eroding of security of tenure for pilots and cabin crew is an awful direction for this and any industry to be heading in.

The contention is that they were bang in trouble pre virus and are now using furloughing and pressurising leasing companies as a crutch to limp onwards. They are masquerading as collateral damage of the covid but they hadn't two pennies to rub together before any borders were closed.

While they certainly made some significant mistakes, they have also suffered massively as a result of circumstances outside of their control. Their Irish operation would have been a very different story if there had not been the problems of late delivery and then the crashes of the MAX aircraft, in the early stages, they had to use non optimal aircraft, with significant additional costs for delays and tech stops and the like, and then the grounding of the MAX blew their operation out of the water, as there was no suitable aircraft to operate the routes effectively.

There can be no doubt that there will be massive consequences as a result of Covid, and I would not like to speculate if the Norwegian government will step in to keep at least some of their operation alive.

As for other airlines, there is no way to know who will survive and who will become casualties of this pandemic. A lot will depend on how the EU looks at state aid to flag carriers, and how that pans out, both for them and the non flag carriers.

What's becoming very clear is that this event is going to be far more damaging than the last crisis (9/11), due to the massive effect world wide, there isn't a country that hasn't been affected, and some are only just starting to stare into the eyes of this nightmare.

TomSweeney · 19-05-2020 11:58am

I can get 120% value of my tickets in cashpoints, and can reschedule my flights as late as December 2021.
I am tempted to go this way, as it's a trip we want to delay till next summer, my problem is will Norwegian airlines exist then ?
And I'd imagine if they don't the cashpoints will just vanish down the virtual toilet.

Ideally would be nice to get a refund if they fold, or should I just go for the refund ?? hmmmm...

PinOnTheRight · 19-05-2020 12:07pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

I can get 120% value of my tickets in cashpoints, and can reschedule my flights as late as December 2021.
I am tempted to go this way, as it's a trip we want to delay till next summer, my problem is will Norwegian airlines exist then ?
And I'd imagine if they don't the cashpoints will just vanish down the virtual toilet.

Ideally would be nice to get a refund if they fold, or should I just go for the refund ?? hmmmm...

Is it a particular destination you want to visit, because even if they exist, they might not fly to the same destinations.

troyzer · 19-05-2020 12:08pm

PinOnTheRight wrote: »

Is it a particular destination you want to visit, because even if they exist, they might not fly to the same destinations.

Very likely, they've all but confirmed that they're moving back to a regional airline.

TomSweeney · 19-05-2020 12:13pm

It's to Oslo, and then on to Narvik, problem seems to be getting to Oslo, I think it's best just to get the refund...

Rawr · 19-05-2020 12:32pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

It's to Oslo, and then on to Narvik, problem seems to be getting to Oslo, I think it's best just to get the refund...

As a regular user of the DUB <-> OSL I am very hopeful that this route survives. It is from the pre-long haul days of the airline and I got the impression of it being a route with good loads (Nearly every flight I've taken with DY this way have been mostly full).

If they survive at all as a regional I'm going to guess / hope like crazy that they'll also keep the profitable routes from Oslo to other non-Nordic destinations. Not sure about their hubs in Barcelona or the UK though....they mightn't survive.

TomSweeney · 19-05-2020 12:34pm

They have cancelled and will refund my Oslo flight, the problem is the Oslo-Narvik flight is still going ahead, seems ill need to fight for money on that one

bugger anyway

TomSweeney · 19-05-2020 1:10pm

Rawr wrote: »

As a regular user of the DUB <-> OSL I am very hopeful that this route survives. It is from the pre-long haul days of the airline and I got the impression of it being a route with good loads (Nearly every flight I've taken with DY this way have been mostly full).

If they survive at all as a regional I'm going to guess / hope like crazy that they'll also keep the profitable routes from Oslo to other non-Nordic destinations. Not sure about their hubs in Barcelona or the UK though....they mightn't survive.

Do you live in Norway ?

Rawr · 19-05-2020 1:15pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

Do you live in Norway ?

I do

As a result I'm using Norwegian a good bit to get around (or at least I'm hoping to again). Drama from Norwegian does also crop up in the local press. Although their financial woes have been the stuff of local news for years at this stage....

TomSweeney · 19-05-2020 2:23pm

How is Norway for an Irish expat ? (assuming you are Irish) I am considering a move there, they seemed to have dealt with this pandemic very well - seems a good benchmark.

Whereabouts do you live ? I would love to move way up north, I know that might not be the best for job opportunities...

Brian CivilEng · 19-05-2020 4:56pm

I'm still waiting on my refund from Norwegian, applied on 10th April. Due to fly Saturday. Still have the option to convert to 120% cash points. Actually interested as I used some cash points to book the trip, I wonder will they be refunded or just the cash portion.

Depressed about missing my trip though, Oslo in May is heaven.

theunforgiven · 20-05-2020 1:40pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

Yes, booked to Oslo and on to Narvik in July ..

Hi,
Got emailed today that my flights are cancelled and applied for a refund. Now the wait begins, but I feel its still better than a voucher, not sure I have much confidence we'll be flying before the voucher expired/before this thing is under control and safe to travel freely.

smurfjed · 20-05-2020 3:02pm

After a turbulent few weeks, Norwegian has a completely new set of owners.Following a chaotic few days for Norwegian Air including a major restructuring, a share issue and a share price collapse, the struggling airline has a whole range of new owners. Through a long list of subsidiaries, one of these is the Chinese state.
In order to qualify for a substantial package of government support, Norwegian had to reduce its debt. A debt-to-equity swap was one of the major pillars of the 12.7 billion Norwegian kroner ($1.27 billion) restructuring and recapitalization package.
From leasing company to airline owner

Several of the leasing companies that rent aircraft to Norwegian have now become major owners following the restructure.
According to a notification to the Oslo Stock Exchange, the leasing company BOC Aviation has emerged from the chaos as one of the airline’s biggest owners. The Singapore-headquartered company now owns a 12.67% stake in Norwegian.
The New-Look Norwegian Airline Will Have Fewer Planes, Fewer Routes Chinese influence on Norwegian

The notification goes on to explain the ownership chain of BOC Aviation. It is controlled by Sky Splendor Limited, which is in turn controlled by an investment arm of Bank of China. Follow the chain upwards and you reach the government of The People's Republic of China.
Prior to the restructuring of Norwegian, neither BOC Aviation nor any of its controlling companies had any financial interest in the airline.
The Irish leasing company AerCap also emerged from the restructure as a major owner, holding shares representing 15.9% of the share capital and voting rights. Aercap owns many of the Dreamlier aircraft previously used by Norwegian on long-haul routes between the U.S. and Europe. The company previously said they were reluctant participants in the deal.
According to the agreement, the shares are locked for trading right away. They will be released in several parts later in 2020.
A rocky restructuring

Before the Oslo Stock Exchange opened on Wednesday, Norwegian released a statement confirming the restructuring plan was completed and that the full package of loan guarantees from the Norwegian government had been approved.
MORE FROM FORBESNorwegian Crisis Continues As Four Staffing Companies Go BankruptBy David NikelHowever, the value of shares dropped by 50% in just ten minutes after the exchange opened. They recovered slightly, but were still down by around 30% at 10.30am. The fall in price was expected due to the drastic increase in the number of shares following the restructure.
Norwegian’s CEO Jacob Schram said the restructuring gives the airline a platform to continue, but pointed out the challenges ahead: “The months ahead will remain challenging and with a high degree of uncertainty for the industry. Norwegian will still need to collaborate closely with a number of creditors as the Company currently has limited revenues.”
That limited revenue looks set to continue for many months. Prior to the restructure, Schram announced the company would be operating in “hibernation mode” for the remainder of 2020, and that full operations would not resume until 2022.

FORBES appear to think that the airline is sticking around.

Tabnabs · 20-05-2020 4:15pm

Cookiemunster · 20-05-2020 4:24pm

Tabnabs wrote: »

Hardly. Aercap has a bigger shareholding according to that article.

bk · 20-05-2020 5:01pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Hardly. Aercap has a bigger shareholding according to that article.

A third Irish Airline now so!

Rawr · 22-05-2020 1:50pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

How is Norway for an Irish expat ? (assuming you are Irish) I am considering a move there, they seemed to have dealt with this pandemic very well - seems a good benchmark.

Whereabouts do you live ? I would love to move way up north, I know that might not be the best for job opportunities...

Going to try and answer in a way that doesn't derail the thread :P

I'm an Irish ex-pat in Norway, it's very good here but be aware that there are very few Irish in the country, especially up North where there's a good bet you'd be the only Irish person for many 100s of KM. Thus I always recommend people moving here to make the effort to learn the language and integrate with the Norwegians, even here in Oslo where I'm based. You won't find many Irish ex-pat communities here compared to other places in the world

To circle back to the spirit of the thread and the fate of Norwegian Air Shuttle, you mentioned Norway's response to the pandemic. It's true, Norway has done extremely well in responding and I get the sense that most people took the treat seriously without the government having to force through a lot of measures. The schools were shut down almost immediately, which put most working families into quarantine by default. It didn't take long for the infection / death rate to drop to very low numbers.

Because of all of that, a large degree of normalcy has returned to Norway. Social distancing appears to be permanent, but beyond that it's business as usual, with the exception that you can't easily leave the country.

Norwegian is still running domestic flights every day, especially now that business travel has been resuming when necessary. Oslo Gardemoen and the regional airports are still chugging along...even though it is quiet compared to normal. So I'm hopeful that the airline can keep the lights on throughout all of this. There is still the question of what they'll look like when everything opens again.

I wouldn't be surprised if their Long-Haul operation goes away...or at least their UK & Spanish bases. But I would like to at very least see them return to offered international flights between the large cities in Norway and European destinations such as Dublin. I would hate to see a situation where only the likes of SAS offer international links out of Norway.

Brian CivilEng · 24-05-2020 4:25pm

Got an email to say that my refund has been processed and money should be back on my credit card in the next few days. Takk for den. Happy enough with that, and I will have no qualms about rebooking with Norwegian as soon as we can.

Rawr, can you please make sure the pubs of Oslo are still there for my next trip! Grünerløkka Brygghus. Schouskjelleren. Amunden's near the Nationaltheatret. O'Reilly's of Markveien where I managed to actually find a barman who was Norwegian to try out my language skills. I should be there now. ;(

Til neste gang...

Rawr · 24-05-2020 7:35pm

Brian CivilEng wrote: »

Rawr, can you please make sure the pubs of Oslo are still there for my next trip! Grünerløkka Brygghus. Schouskjelleren. Amunden's near the Nationaltheatret. O'Reilly's of Markveien where I managed to actually find a barman who was Norwegian to try out my language skills. I should be there now. ;(

All of those pubs are still there and many have re-opened to normal(ish) operations in the past week or so.

As before, I just hope that it will be possible for likes of yourself to take a Norwegian flight into Oslo to visit those pubs when things start to open up fully. If it was left to SAS, the flights would cost mutilples of what Norwegian charged, and half the time you'd have to transfer via CPH or ARN to travel between Oslo & Dublin.

L1011 · 24-05-2020 9:19pm

Imagine - twice the price of the flight might cost you a whole pint in Oslo :pac:

Actually, should life ever return to normal I need to go for a pint with Rawr, who I worked with a decade and a half ago now. Even if it is in Oslo.

Tabnabs · 25-05-2020 10:26am

Any Norwegian ex-pats that are returning from Ireland currently and mainly flying via Amsterdam with KLM, with an occasional trip via London instead.

If you are travelling to Norway at any time and Oslo is not your final destination, give Gardemoen a wide berth as they will lose your bags, also neglect to inform you of any changes to transiting the airport and empty your wallet with a slice of pizza and a drink costing the equivalent of a months mortgage payment.

TomSweeney · 26-05-2020 11:27am

Those that got your refund, how long did it take to process ?
I applied 2 weeks ago for mine and hear nothing, I contact support and they tell me they can't check the status on it ... crazy, looking at their twitter feed doesn't inspire confidence ...

TomSweeney · 26-05-2020 11:29am

Rawr wrote: »

Going to try and answer in a way that doesn't derail the thread :P

I'm an Irish ex-pat in Norway, it's very good here but be aware that there are very few Irish in the country, especially up North where there's a good bet you'd be the only Irish person for many 100s of KM. Thus I always recommend people moving here to make the effort to learn the language and integrate with the Norwegians, even here in Oslo where I'm based. You won't find many Irish ex-pat communities here compared to other places in the world

....

Excellent thanks!!

all these are a huge plus for me !!

Brian CivilEng · 26-05-2020 12:17pm

TomSweeney wrote: »

Those that got your refund, how long did it take to process ?
I applied 2 weeks ago for mine and hear nothing, I contact support and they tell me they can't check the status on it ... crazy, looking at their twitter feed doesn't inspire confidence ...

I applied 8th April, got confirmation it was processed on 21st May, arrived back on my credit card today.

Flight was last week so I don't know if they waited until the day of the flight to process it.

TomSweeney · 26-05-2020 12:19pm

Brian CivilEng wrote: »

I applied 8th April, got confirmation it was processed on 21st May, arrived back on my credit card today.

Flight was last week so I don't know if they waited until the day of the flight to process it.

OK, hopefully it's that, my flights were Jun 30 - Jul 09...

TomSweeney · 29-05-2020 6:11pm

Norway has extended the border closure till August 20, I wonder would it be even safe to go there in July 2021 ?

Rawr · 30-05-2020 6:32am

TomSweeney wrote: »

Norway has extended the border closure till August 20, I wonder would it be even safe to go there in July 2021 ?

Assuming this virus is under control by then I would say July 2021 is a safe bet.
I read in the news yesterday that travel between Denmark and Norway is going to open up after June 15. This is mostly due to the fact that direct travel between Denmark and Norway must be done via ferry or plane, and that Denmark have done similarly well with their virus measures.

I'm not sure if the overland route via Sweden will count since Sweden themselves are not included in this opening. Coming in from Sweden so far would have resulted in an automatic 2-week quarantine.

TomSweeney · 12-06-2020 7:06pm

I got an email saying we'll get a full refund, so that's good, still haven't received the cash yet ... so let's see ...

theunforgiven · 15-06-2020 9:54am

I had to wait a couple of weeks for my refund. I was expecting longer, was definitely shorter than I had expected.

Tenzor07 · 14-07-2020 10:45pm

Not sure if this is a joke or not, but NAS are planning to restart long haul flights from Gatwick in their 787 fleet...

https://simpleflying.com/norwegian-december-long-haul-flights/

Considering all their issues, would anyone in their right mind buy a ticket to fly to the U.S with them in December onwards?

goingnowhere · 14-07-2020 11:14pm

Getting cash in is king...

Looks like BA is going to relocate its entire long haul business to LHR so there is a gap in the market. But given the circumstances Winter is coming and it won't be good.

Noxegon · 15-07-2020 6:54am

goingnowhere wrote: »

But given the circumstances Winter is coming.

The night is dark and full of terrors?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist...)

Tenzor07 · 15-07-2020 11:33am

goingnowhere wrote: »

Getting cash in is king...Looks like BA is going to relocate its entire long haul business to LHR so there is a gap in the market. But given the circumstances Winter is coming and it won't be good.

I'd rather not donate to keeping NAUK afloat, I reckon this is just a marketing scam... I looked at LGW to NYC in December, €178 one way.. but unless I plan on growing wings by then i'd say that the flights will all be cancelled closer to the time...

Maybe Whizz air will take the Norwegian slots and run a few transatlantic flights out of LGW using 321LR's or something...

Locker10a · 20-08-2020 3:48pm

Sweden rejects credit guarantee for struggling Norwegian Air

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norwegian-air-credit/sweden-rejects-credit-guarantee-for-struggling-norwegian-air-idUSKCN25E0J1

Locker10a · 09-11-2020 10:49am

Alex Macheras (@AlexInAir) Tweeted:
Latest: Norway’s government has announced that Norwegian Air will not receive further financial support amid #COVID19 crisis ⚠️

The airline has responded by warning: “Without support, the way forward has become much more uncertain” https://t.co/J1KXpev505

A further blow, but I suppose there’s still the possibility of compensation from Boeing

09-11-2020 11:10am

That is a signal to other operators that no resistance will be offered if they muscle in on Norwegian's operations. It is more a message to the market than to Norwegian.

Rawr · 09-11-2020 12:14pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That is a signal to other operators that no resistance will be offered if they muscle in on Norwegian's operations. It is more a message to the market than to Norwegian.

Makes me wonder if this would trigger a proper return of Ryanair to Norway to capitalize on that. They've had a handful of routes out of OSL ever since they closed their base at RYG in protest to the environmental surcharges that Norway introduced.

In the years since, Ryanair has been operating their routes, but their marketing presence compared to before RYG's closure is practically non-existent. You'll only start to realize that Ryanair still flew to Norway by spotting them on a visit to OSL.

With Norwegian on the rock apparently, maybe Ryanair will think it worth their while to fill any possible vacuum...assuming the world has returned to some normality.

basill · 09-11-2020 1:36pm

Whereas Bloomberg report that support will continue for domestic routes. Presumably this is similar to the Irish PSO routes.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-09/norwegian-air-future-uncertain-after-government-declines-new-aid

Rawr · 09-11-2020 1:41pm

basill wrote: »

Whereas Bloomberg report that support will continue for domestic routes. Presumably this is similar to the Irish PSO routes.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-11-09/norwegian-air-future-uncertain-after-government-declines-new-aid

They have an extensive Domestic network over here in Norway, but I'm not sure how many are PSOs. I know some of the more remote airports on the coast and up North have PSO routes, but they tend to be served with Turbo-props due to short runways. Typically operated by Widerøe.

SAS might have most of the Jet-based PSOs in Norway (don't really know)

09-11-2020 2:05pm

Rawr wrote: »

They have an extensive Domestic network over here in Norway, but I'm not sure how many are PSOs. I know some of the more remote airports on the coast and up North have PSO routes, but they tend to be served with Turbo-props due to short runways. Typically operated by Widerøe.

SAS might have most of the Jet-based PSOs in Norway (don't really know)

Wouldn't turboprop be just as much for mountains and difficult approach as for short runway when talking about Scandinavia.

Norwegian air

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