Cities around the world that are reducing car access

wakka12 · 12-05-2020 11:14am

Citizens should make some kind of petition against the Car Park Owner Alliance. Council works on behalf of the public,it's not fair or right that this minority lobby group seemingly have such an impact on the development infrastructure projects that will do so much good for the average citizen in terms of health, environmental and economic impact.

donvito99 · 12-05-2020 11:17am

The difference this time is that they're no longer shouting down proposals, they're shouting over improvements that are actually being implemented. Which makes for a change.

cgcsb · 12-05-2020 12:08pm

They don't have a legal leg to stand on though. Never mind that, the liffey cycle route doesn't actually impact them at all, they still have unfettered access for cars.

I had to laugh at this:

Speaking on Monday evening, Mr Smyth said the Dublin City Centre Traders' Alliance had offered to pay half the cost of a study for the city council to examine how pedestrians, cyclists, cars and trams could move in a Medieval city.

"There is no study or information to say they are right or wrong," he said.

Mr Smyth previously threatened legal action when the city council sought to introduce the College Green plaza plan through its own powers under road traffic legislation.

Only about 0.5 sqkm of Dublin city can be considered to be 'Medieval', namely the areas now known as Temple Bar and Christchurch, neither of these areas accommodate trams or have any proposals to do so, so the alliance are going to pay to commission a study with an utterly false premise.

Peregrine · 12-05-2020 12:09pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Citizens should make some kind of petition against the Car Park Owner Alliance. Council works on behalf of the public,it's not fair or right that this minority lobby group seemingly have such an impact on the development infrastructure projects that will do so much good for the average citizen in terms of health, environmental and economic impact.

They are! Hopefully the negative coverage makes BT and Arnotts cop on.

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1260077174322868225?s=20
https://twitter.com/streetsare4ppl/status/1260147542387568640?s=20
https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1260142064274223104?s=20

wakka12 · 12-05-2020 12:54pm

Peregrine wrote: »

They are! Hopefully the negative coverage makes BT and Arnotts cop on.

https://twitter.com/aoibhinn_ni_s/status/1260077174322868225?s=20
https://twitter.com/streetsare4ppl/status/1260147542387568640?s=20
https://twitter.com/transportdublin/status/1260142064274223104?s=20

Brilliant! I will be emailing them all over lunch

CatInABox · 13-05-2020 9:07pm

DLRCC has started now too. I think there's been a lot of pressure coming on them to acknowledge the new reality.

https://twitter.com/dlrcc/status/1260630189626834944

JohnC. · 14-05-2020 9:07am

https://www.ft.com/content/9fbfcf58-c710-40b0-91ee-0811686fa391

City of London proposals for 12 or 24 hour closures for cars of main routes to make streets safer for pedestrians to distance. It's for Covid, but if it works they are considering making it permanent.

It's paywalled, but if you Google the headline, "City of London to ban cars on busiest roads as lockdown eases", Google links to the whole article.

JohnC. · 14-05-2020 1:25pm

The official document on that City of London plan, for those interested

http://democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/documents/s133303/City%20Streets%20CV19%20recovery%20committee%20report%20PT%20140520%20FINAL.pdf

Sam Russell · 14-05-2020 2:31pm

JohnC. wrote: »

The official document on that City of London plan, for those interested

http://democracy.cityoflondon.gov.uk/documents/s133303/City%20Streets%20CV19%20recovery%20committee%20report%20PT%20140520%20FINAL.pdf

The City of London is only one square mile, so not huge.

CatInABox · 21-05-2020 6:24pm

Janet Horner has put up the DCC/NTA Interim Mobility Intervention Programme for Dublin City, laying out the future of Dublin. Very interesting read. Even with all the measures that they're doing, they believe they'll have a 50000 shortfall in journey capacity.

See here.

Also, there's a justification for moving buses way from the college green route in there too, namely that there's too many buses and pedestrians to share the space while maintain the room for social distancing.

It's an incredible doc in many ways, it's going to reshape the city for decades.

cgcsb · 21-05-2020 9:42pm

So basically it's the guts of bus connects in the city centre, implemented in a mater of days, without public consultations, planning permission, glossy brochures and consultants fees. As I stated some months ago on this thread, it's always been possible to do but there was no will.

Wonder could they extend this to the whole city and the remaining parts of bus connects requiring cpo or major junction changes could be repackaged as a smaller project with less fanfare and we'd save ourselves a few quid.

Curb Your Enthusiasm · 21-05-2020 10:48pm

Would have liked to see a version published for Cork too.. God knows we need it. And fast.

Peregrine · 21-05-2020 10:50pm

Curb Your Enthusiasm wrote: »

Would have liked to see a version published for Cork too.. God knows we need it. And fast.

That's down to Cork City Council. NTA only has statutory power in the GDA for things like this. Not counting taxi regulation or the bus market.

Curb Your Enthusiasm · 21-05-2020 10:50pm

Peregrine wrote: »

That's down to Cork City Council. NTA only has statutory power in the GDA.

They were hinting at a Cork office. Maybe sometime in the future.

We'd get nothing done with CCC solely in charge. Useless they are!

Peregrine · 22-05-2020 2:29am

Cork has just been awful. Their list of streets to be pedestrianised has streets that were already pedestrianised. Serious lack of vision.

What can you expect from a council whose CEO began a meeting with cycling campaigners by reading out complaints about cyclists?

magicbastarder · 22-05-2020 1:32pm

one thing i was curious to see whether it'd happen, and clearly has not, is a return of the bubble car style of vehicle, with electric cars becoming popular again. i can see the pluses and minuses, but if you could make a three wheeler like the isetta or messerschmidt KR200, but legally qualifying as a motorbike, it might be handy for the sort of person who has a 10km suburban or urban, trip where a bike might not be suitable.

Sam Russell · 22-05-2020 2:17pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one thing i was curious to see whether it'd happen, and clearly has not, is a return of the bubble car style of vehicle, with electric cars becoming popular again. i can see the pluses and minuses, but if you could make a three wheeler like the isetta or messerschmidt KR200, but legally qualifying as a motorbike, it might be handy for the sort of person who has a 10km suburban or urban, trip where a bike might not be suitable.

The electric scooter is a better candidate. It needs legislation and standard specification, plus insurance and identity - number plates in other words.

Great solution from what I see, but needs to be limited to say 20 km/hr.

Lord Glentoran · 23-05-2020 9:53am

Sam Russell wrote: »

The electric scooter is a better candidate. It needs legislation and standard specification, plus insurance and identity - number plates in other words.

Great solution from what I see, but needs to be limited to say 20 km/hr.

“Plus insurance and number plates” will mean scooter owners will be screwed for a grand a year by tax and insurance and will be walloped for VRT. Self defeating.

namloc1980 · 23-05-2020 10:32am

Cork City Council doing a consultation on their paltry pedestrianisation proposals:

.

magicbastarder · 23-05-2020 11:14am

it would be gas to see how much insurance a scooter owner could be charged. the damage you could do with one would be utterly paltry compared to the damage you could do with a car, so it'd need to be 10%, or much less, of the normal you'd pay for car insurance.
in fact, i suspect the biggest payouts would be from scooter damage to cars. thus underlining yet again that cars are the unnecessary side of that unbalanced equation.

Sam Russell · 23-05-2020 11:32am

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

“Plus insurance and number plates” will mean scooter owners will be screwed for a grand a year by tax and insurance and will be walloped for VRT. Self defeating.

I think the idea that escooters will become a revenue stream for the Gov is a preposterous idea. If that was the case, surely cyclists would have been hit hard instead of benefiting from 'cycle to work' schemes. They cost little in way of infrastructure, and little to park, so why try to raise revenue from them when they solve a major problem?

magicbastarder wrote: »

it would be gas to see how much insurance a scooter owner could be charged. the damage you could do with one would be utterly paltry compared to the damage you could do with a car, so it'd need to be 10%, or much less, of the normal you'd pay for car insurance.
in fact, i suspect the biggest payouts would be from scooter damage to cars. thus underlining yet again that cars are the unnecessary side of that unbalanced equation.

Insurance could be an issue, but if escooters are properly specced, then accidents would be few if the speed is limited, and riders have helmets. It is likely that rider identity might be required, but in most countries cyclists do not require it. So maybe a nominal 'insurance' charge might work, but probably not worth it.

Hopefully sense will prevail.

Thelonious Monk · 24-05-2020 1:00pm

Why arent mopeds and the likes encouaged too? They run on nothing and you can get around the city almost as easily as on a bike.

Sam Russell · 24-05-2020 1:12pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why arent mopeds and the likes encouaged too? They run on nothing and you can get around the city almost as easily as on a bike.

They are not discouraged. However, e-scooters are a better 'last mile' solution as they can be ridden at least 10 km, and are non polluting, and cheap to run.

Just need to regularise them.

24-05-2020 1:24pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Why arent mopeds and the likes encouaged too? They run on nothing and you can get around the city almost as easily as on a bike.

There was a time when you got a free moped licence with a full car licence when you passed your car driving test, that stopped many years ago.

I have such a licence, so for me is I commuted in Dublin, an e-moped would be a no-brainer, but the issue I would have is storage at the station!

We should not encourage the petrol ones though as they're the worst polluters around.

SeanW · 24-05-2020 4:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

We should not encourage the petrol ones though as they're the worst polluters around.

How do mopeds (and motorcycles in general) compare to cars for pollution? I would have assumed motorcycles pollute less as they have very small engines for a much lighter vehicle?

Sam Russell · 24-05-2020 5:16pm

SeanW wrote: »

How do mopeds (and motorcycles in general) compare to cars for pollution? I would have assumed motorcycles pollute less as they have very small engines for a much lighter vehicle?

But cars pollute more than buses despite being smaller. The standards for buses are much more stringent than for cars. Not sure how cleam motorcycles are compared with cars. Some motor cycles have larger engines than the smaller cars.

24-05-2020 9:02pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

But cars pollute more than buses despite being smaller. The standards for buses are much more stringent than for cars. Not sure how cleam motorcycles are compared with cars. Some motor cycles have larger engines than the smaller cars.

About 15 years ago, Mythbusters actually tested this, here is a short review of the results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVAmlldzJOM

what_traffic · 25-05-2020 12:27pm

Deleted User wrote: »

There was a time when you got a free moped licence with a full car licence when you passed your car driving test, that stopped many years ago.

We should not encourage the petrol ones though as they're the worst polluters around.

They should bring it back for e-mopeds.
Interesting the way the practically eliminated the petrol ones in major Chinese Citys overnight by requiring a licence for them, many users just converted to electric e-moped by ripping out the petrol engine and installing a battery.

Thelonious Monk · 25-05-2020 10:01pm

I would imagine the powers that be would view mopeds or e-mopeds as just another annoyance for car drivers and would be reluctant to have them on the roads. You never see mopeds any more in Dublin, they used to be all over the place. It's a shame, they use feck all fuel and don't cause any congestion.

CatInABox · 04-06-2020 10:24am

There's a proposal to change Dublin city into a 30kph city, which would be amazing for pedestrians and cyclists. Pearse and Tara street often feel like you're taking your life in your hands just walking along the paths.

https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1267837401247952896

Enforcement would be key of course, but this would still make a massive difference. This has passed the transport committee already, so will come before the full council before, hopefully, a public consultation.

Of course, the car park rep was against it. :rolleyes:

CatInABox · 04-06-2020 11:05am

Work on expanded pedestrian and cyclist facilities continues as well.

https://twitter.com/DubCityCouncil/status/1268476293869420545

cgcsb · 04-06-2020 12:07pm

is there any new proposed timeline on pedestrianising the green?

Pinch Flat · 04-06-2020 12:18pm

Great to see some rapid developments in Dublin that have been talked about for years. The Liffey Cycling lane and the pedestrianization of college green are most welcome. It really has been an unpleasant, car dominated city - even having a conversation while walking down Pearse Street is difficult. of course, the 30 kph / hr limits are largely ignored - policing won't work as it's too resource heavy and sporadic. Be nice to see camera tech / average speed cameras being used to monitor this. And bus lanes as well - they were being heavily abused pre-Covid.

magicbastarder · 04-06-2020 12:27pm

posted this in a different thread, but vaguely similar context - i assume there's been no change to the laws referenced in this?
cllr andrew montague raised this question after i asked him about it a few years ago.

Question to the Chief Executive
Council Meeting 04th JULY 2016
Q.85 COUNCILLOR ANDREW MONTAGUE
Can the Chief Executive install a zebra crossing at Castlemarket at the junction with South William Street?

CHIEF EXECUTIVE’S REPLY:
Dublin City Council does not recommend Zebra crossings as they may provide a false sense of safety for pedestrians. In Ireland, a pedestrian does not have the right-of-way until they have already stepped onto a Zebra crossing. For this reason Dublin City Council’s preferred option is for crossings where the onus is unambiguously on the driver to stop.

The location is listed for examination and report by the Traffic Advisory Group. The Councillor will be informed of the recommendation in due course.

riddlinrussell · 04-06-2020 12:41pm

CatInABox wrote: »

There's a proposal to change Dublin city into a 30kph city, which would be amazing for pedestrians and cyclists. Pearse and Tara street often feel like you're taking your life in your hands just walking along the paths.

https://twitter.com/Pidge/status/1267837401247952896

Enforcement would be key of course, but this would still make a massive difference. This has passed the transport committee already, so will come before the full council before, hopefully, a public consultation.

Of course, the car park rep was against it. :rolleyes:

A point raised on twitter regarding this was that with 30 km/h limits in place the street design and layout requirements change, lanes can be made narrower and corners sharper on a 30 km/h road than a 50 km/h. So while enforcement is definitely needed, street design will hopefully follow that psychologically demands slower driving.

CatInABox · 04-06-2020 1:07pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

posted this in a different thread, but vaguely similar context - i assume there's been no change to the laws referenced in this?
cllr andrew montague raised this question after i asked him about it a few years ago.

I don't think I've heard anything like it over the years.

I wonder if they could make the Zebra crossing start before the path/road edge, so people are legally "on" the crossing before they even leave the path?

Anyway, that's much of a muchness, the solution is to fix the law on this, as it is with so many other traffic offenses. Hopefully once politicians see that there's widespread support for these measures, and stop listening solely to the Car Park crowd, they'll realise that this is the kind of thing people want in Dublin, and other towns and cities.

magicbastarder · 04-06-2020 1:28pm

according to an article from thejournal.ie;

Motorists must give way to pedestrians on or at a zebra crossing (even if they are only waiting to cross)

which clearly contradicts the statement from the council.

i'll see if i can find the law.
edit - looks like the council are right?

(6) A driver of a vehicle approaching a zebra pedestrian crossing where traffic sign number RPC 001 (zebra pedestrian crossing) is provided shall yield the right of way to any pedestrian who has commenced crossing the road at the zebra pedestrian crossing.”,

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2012/si/332/made/en/print?q=zebra&search_type=all

my emphasis. a driver must only yield to pedestrians who are already on the crossing. so zebra crossings are essentially pointless from a legal point of view.

cgcsb · 04-06-2020 1:28pm

More importantly, why do we need cars on South William Street? what do they add to the area?

magicbastarder · 04-06-2020 1:34pm

main issue with removing cars from south william street is that, in their wisdom, the council allowed BT to use it as the exit for their car park.

cgcsb · 04-06-2020 2:01pm

Cars can turn right and right again when exiting. Ultimately that car park should no longer be there.

L1011 · 04-06-2020 3:26pm

I imagine that'll be sold off for development, or used as such for the store itself, in the next boom. Another problematic to route around carpark, Trinity Street, is closing for redevelopment as it is

CatInABox · 05-06-2020 10:57am

https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1268841479079895043

OPW reverses decision on reopening the rest of the Pheonix Park gates. Really is great for park as an amenity. Now to work on getting them to reduce the speed limit in there on the main road.

Peregrine · 05-06-2020 6:34pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

main issue with removing cars from south william street is that, in their wisdom, the council allowed BT to use it as the exit for their car park.

In the government's wisdom, we also encouraged them to build the damn thing in the first place!

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/bank-and-developer-buy-bt-car-park-1.38782

magicbastarder · 07-06-2020 10:44am

limerick traders are not happy with some mooted (temporary) plans for pedestrianisation:

https://twitter.com/Limerick_Leader/status/1269360180241678336

Sam Russell · 07-06-2020 10:54am

magicbastarder wrote: »

limerick traders are not happy with some mooted (temporary) plans for pedestrianisation:

https://twitter.com/Limerick_Leader/status/1269360180241678336

Traders are very short sighted seeing pedestrianisation as a negative when it is a positive in the medium and long term. How many Grafton St traders would agree to a return of traffic in the street? How has Naas or Athlone fared since the bypass?

Take the traffic out and the shoppers come back.

Dats me · 07-06-2020 1:19pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Traders are very short sighted seeing pedestrianisation as a negative when it is a positive in the medium and long term. How many Grafton St traders would agree to a return of traffic in the street? How has Naas or Athlone fared since the bypass?

Take the traffic out and the shoppers come back.

I think it's mainly fear - if your profit margin is 10% even a small could kill your business.

The real issue is that businesses seem to be able to stonewall any policy they disagree with. You're right that it's not a coincidence that Grafton Street and Henry Street are the busiest streets in the city and country. And that driving through the average rural town is usually quite depressing, filled with a mic of dereliction, vape shops and €2 stores.

Particularly now, are people going to risk getting coronavirus walking on narrow footpaths beside traffic? We have to make our town centres actually pleasant to make sure the idea of a town centre doesn't die, it's understandable that businesses are scared but they're killing our towns. Councils and councillors need to.be brave.

Sam Russell · 07-06-2020 1:26pm

Dats me wrote: »

I think it's mainly fear - if your profit margin is 10% even a small could kill your business.

The real issue is that businesses seem to be able to stonewall any policy they disagree with. You're right that it's not a coincidence that Grafton Street and Henry Street are the busiest streets in the city and country. And that driving through the average rural town is usually quite depressing, filled with a mic of dereliction, vape shops and €2 stores.

Particularly now, are people going to risk getting coronavirus walking on narrow footpaths beside traffic? We have to make our town centres actually pleasant to make sure the idea of a town centre doesn't die, it's understandable that businesses are scared but they're killing our towns. Councils and councillors need to.be brave.

You just have to look at small towns in the UK where the out of town supermarkets have hollowed out the local towns such that they are only pound shops, charity shops, and vacant shops left - the shopping equivalent of 'fly over' towns.

I doubt that the UK will ever recover, and I hope we don't continue further down that road.

L1011 · 07-06-2020 6:30pm

Peregrine wrote: »

In the government's wisdom, we also encouraged them to build the damn thing in the first place!

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/homes-and-property/bank-and-developer-buy-bt-car-park-1.38782

DCC and the state had some very odd ideas about how to try and return life to a city centre that their own policies destroyed (road widening and slow CPO processes leaving entire streets to rot, then left as surface carparks for years; rates rules encouraging people to let the upper floors of a building rot or physically remove them; etc etc) in the 1990s.

Cork Street has still not recovered from the road widening hangover.

Sam Russell wrote: »

How has Naas or Athlone fared since the bypass?

Naas is a bad example due to other bad decisions - retail parks built both sides of the town; the failed redevelopment of the original Superquinn in the town (its now a Dunnes food store, but it was empty for maybe a decade) and the bad timing of the main shopping centre development on the main street due to it being still an empty shell. Even the McDonalds in the town centre closed down when they opened one at a retail park!

AndrewJRenko · 07-06-2020 11:13pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Traders are very short sighted seeing pedestrianisation as a negative when it is a positive in the medium and long term. How many Grafton St traders would agree to a return of traffic in the street? How has Naas or Athlone fared since the bypass?

Take the traffic out and the shoppers come back.

Do they not read the papers at all? 15% increase in trade on Suffolk St after pedestrianisation.

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/business-group-wants-more-cycle-lanes-and-wider-paths-instead-of-dublin-city-car-ban-998438.html

JohnC. · 08-06-2020 5:45am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do they not read the papers at all? 15% increase in trade on Suffolk St after pedestrianisation.

https://amp.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/business-group-wants-more-cycle-lanes-and-wider-paths-instead-of-dublin-city-car-ban-998438.html

This keeps happening. Time after time, city centre pedestrianisation leads to stories about an increase in business. Yet time after time, proposed future pedestrianisation leads to business objecting because of a perceived loss of business.

They don't look to evidence from elsewhere. They just go on what they feel will happen with no thought of evidence.

Cities around the world that are reducing car access

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