Terminator: Dark Fate Spoilers from post 983

silverharp · 01-06-2020 12:22pm

pixelburp wrote: »

"Mary Sue" is completely overused at this stage: it's redundant to throw it around when the character we're talking about is literally meant to be Humanity's Saviour - as was John Connor. Can't call someone that when the whole point of the franchise is the idea of the single unifying person who'll save us all. It's literally Mary Sue: The Franchise (with occasional moments of "Heavy Lies the Crown").

Dani didn't work because she was horrendously underwritten and the obvious scene containing her Big Speech fell incredibly flat. She wasn't a Mary Sue, just what I suspect was an afterthought in the writing; the return of Sarah Connor & her sparring with Grace was the actual main thrust of that film's first half. The misdirection about Dani's womb as the prize was blunt - but it's not like it didn't fit when compared against Sarah's own arc.

Dani wasn't a Mary Sue, just a really crap McGuffin in what I suspect was meant to be Sarah Connor's film - but somewhere in the drafts people got anxious there wasn't a Saviour character. And yeah, being a woman added an effective twist that worked ... ... for Sarah Connor.

the difference is lost on me, in my mind a Mary Sue is someone who just arrives on screen basically fully formed as opposed to someone where we get to see a plausible development over the movie the classic "hero's journey" right?. Being the saviour of mankind doesn't make one a Mary Sue in itself.
When they have teenage girls wrestling killer robots from the future with no back story they can fk right off, that Tumblr level fan fiction not something aiming for mass appeal.

IrishJedi75 · 01-06-2020 4:03pm

A quote from Tim Miller on Indiewire,July 10 2019....

“If you’re at all enlightened, she’ll play like gangbusters. If you’re a closet misogynist, she’ll scare the **** out of you, because she’s tough and strong but very feminine,” Miller said. “We did not trade certain gender traits for others; she’s just very strong, and that frightens some dudes. You can see online the responses to some of the early **** that’s out there, trolls on the internet. I don’t give a ****.”

Right Tim,we all have to be '' Enlightened '' to enjoy your piece of **** film.What an idiot.Have fun explaining that 120 million loss to your investors!

I guess all those '' Trolls '' hated Sarah Connor in the first two movies as well....oh wait!

jill_valentine · 01-06-2020 9:58pm

IrishJedi75 wrote: »

A quote from Tim Miller on Indiewire,July 10 2019....

“If you’re at all enlightened, she’ll play like gangbusters. If you’re a closet misogynist, she’ll scare the **** out of you, because she’s tough and strong but very feminine,” Miller said. “We did not trade certain gender traits for others; she’s just very strong, and that frightens some dudes. You can see online the responses to some of the early **** that’s out there, trolls on the internet. I don’t give a ****.”

Right Tim,we all have to be '' Enlightened '' to enjoy your piece of **** film.What an idiot.Have fun explaining that 120 million loss to your investors!

I guess all those '' Trolls '' hated Sarah Connor in the first two movies as well....oh wait!

What he's saying here, and what you're reacting as if he said, are not the same, so that can't be what you were reacting to before.

Can you not actually quote him saying what you thought he'd said?

Could it be that he didn't say any such thing, but that you did indeed let some Youtube clickbaiter sell you a pup?

jill_valentine · 01-06-2020 10:10pm

silverharp wrote: »

John was basically raised as a child mercenary, his whole life was training. this movie went with Dani Skywalker approach , one day of training and they are good to go.

That's not really what happens though? They do some weapons training with her because they need to, but they're still actively being pursued. They go straight from Carl's house to get an EMP and Rev 9 is almost right behind them at that stage.

In fairness, the movie does more work than T2 did to suggest she has natural leadership qualities, and gives her a very personal stake to go forward with. The implication at the end is that she's going to spend a lot of time in the next few years learning from Sarah, not that she's fully formed by then.

I do wish they'd stuck with the original future war scene of her sending Grace back though, because I think it worked better and the scavenger scene doesn't work at all. I also have some uncharitable suspicions about why it was cut.

Mark Hamill · 02-06-2020 9:51am

silverharp wrote: »

the difference is lost on me, in my mind a Mary Sue is someone who just arrives on screen basically fully formed as opposed to someone where we get to see a plausible development over the movie the classic "hero's journey" right?. Being the saviour of mankind doesn't make one a Mary Sue in itself.
When they have teenage girls wrestling killer robots from the future with no back story they can fk right off, that Tumblr level fan fiction not something aiming for mass appeal.

She didn't wrestle the terminator (your implication that she dominated it hand to hand). She blasted a badly damaged half-terminator with a shotgun a few times, then ran into it and knocked it over and then, while trying to stab it with a bomb, was reversed and nearly choked to death until Carl held it back long enough for her jam a bomb in its eye. It was sloppy as hell and she needed to be saved by someone else, so I don't see how she it makes her a Mary Sue.
And I certainly don't see how a character that is universally decried as under-developed can be claimed to have entered the movie fully formed either.

EDIT: She was also supposed to be 21 in the movie, not a teenager (Natalie Reyes, the actress, is 32 in real life).

Mark Hamill · 02-06-2020 9:55am

IrishJedi75 wrote: »

A quote from Tim Miller on Indiewire,July 10 2019....

“If you’re at all enlightened, she’ll play like gangbusters. If you’re a closet misogynist, she’ll scare the **** out of you, because she’s tough and strong but very feminine,” Miller said. “We did not trade certain gender traits for others; she’s just very strong, and that frightens some dudes. You can see online the responses to some of the early **** that’s out there, trolls on the internet. I don’t give a ****.”

Right Tim,we all have to be '' Enlightened '' to enjoy your piece of **** film.What an idiot.Have fun explaining that 120 million loss to your investors!

I guess all those '' Trolls '' hated Sarah Connor in the first two movies as well....oh wait!

That quote is specifically about Davis' character, not the movie as a whole. I thought most people thought Davis' character was one of the good things about the movie.

B.A._Baracus · 19-09-2020 11:53pm

I tried to watch this months ago and only gave it twenty minutes but it got uploaded to NowTv so decided to give it another go.

It's not bad. Quite enjoyable actually. Maybe cause the bar is low due to Genysis? Who knows.

But the only way to enjoy these terminator movies is to stop comparing them to T1 or T2. However this movie flopped so that's the end of Dark Fate sequels. Back to the reboot stage eh Hollywood?

kerplun k · 22-09-2020 2:09pm

I watched it on Sky last night. I thought it was an enjoyable yarn.
It felt very reminiscent of T2, and comes in 3rd behind, T2, T1, then Dark Fate.

mikhail · 22-09-2020 3:42pm

kerplun k wrote: »

It felt very reminiscent of T2, and comes in 3rd behind, T2, T1, then Dark Fate.

I was curious about where the consensus on this stood. Here's what I found.

jill_valentine · 22-09-2020 4:40pm

mikhail wrote: »

I was curious about where the consensus on this stood. Here's what I found.

Not sure how much stock you can put in the IMDB ratings for this one, it was brigaded after featuring in some alt right podcasts and I don't think enough actual people saw it to drown them out.

Have a read through the reviews and you'll see what I mean. See how long it takes you to find one from somebody you're absolutely positive saw it, last I checked, a bunch of them were still quoting lines that weren't in the movie at all.

It's not T2, but imho there's a significant distance between it and the other sequels even in basic plot-holding-together terms.

Ethereal Cereal · 22-09-2020 4:41pm

kerplun k wrote: »

I watched it on Sky last night. I thought it was an enjoyable yarn.
It felt very reminiscent of T2, and comes in 3rd behind, T2, T1, then Dark Fate.

I liked it too, but it could have been allot better, if they had just tightened up some of the loose plot threads. I really liked allot of it. Linda Hamilton back in this role was as awesome as she was in T2. Mackenzie Davis was great as a part terminator and really pulled off the action scenes well. Gabriel Luna was genuinely unnerving as a sociopathic terminator.

Unfortunately, there was just too much not to like.

CG John Conner getting assassinated, a comedic T800, an alternate skynet, Natalia Reyes as a future war leader.

kerplun k · 22-09-2020 5:09pm

Ethereal Cereal wrote: »

I liked it too, but it could have been allot better, if they had just tightened up some of the loose plot threads. I really liked allot of it. Linda Hamilton back in this role was as awesome as she was in T2. Mackenzie Davis was great as a part terminator and really pulled off the action scenes well. Gabriel Luna was genuinely unnerving as a sociopathic terminator.

Unfortunately, there was just too much not to like.
CG John Conner getting assassinated, a comedic T800, an alternate skynet, Natalia Reyes as a future war leader.

The start was one of my favorite bits. I was completely surprised by it.

stateofflux · 22-09-2020 5:12pm

Saw it in Cinema and recently re-watched it to be sure. Its pretty bad. Hopefully the nail in the coffin for the franchise.

Without Arnie there is no Terminator imo, so i can't see another reboot working.

mikhail · 22-09-2020 5:13pm

jill_valentine wrote: »

Not sure how much stock you can put in the IMDB ratings for this one, it was brigaded after featuring in some alt right podcasts and I don't think enough actual people saw it to drown them out.

I'll buy that it affected its score, and it doesn't deserve to be rated lowest of any of the post-T2 movies, but the third act is so bad as to leave it more or less amongst them anyway.

pixelburp · 22-09-2020 5:22pm

After T2 you can quibble the merits or deficiencies of those sequels but it's fairly clear none of them come close to the standard of the two classics. The simple point being that the franchise should be allowed to die, having outstayed its premise and welcome by about 30 years.

But no doubt someone else will pick up the IP, and another studio will try another reboot. Though not even China could save the film from audience apathy.

jill_valentine · 22-09-2020 5:34pm

mikhail wrote: »

I'll buy that it affected its score, and it doesn't deserve to be rated lowest of any of the post-T2 movies, but the third act is so bad as to leave it more or less amongst them anyway.

The plane and humvee stuff, sure. I thoroughly enjoyed the stuff at the dam though. Overall, it's not nearly as dreary as Salvation or as goofy slapstick as T3 or as... well, Assorted ****e as Genisys.

Goodshape · 22-09-2020 9:53pm

stateofflux wrote: »

Without Arnie there is no Terminator imo

I think that attitude has killed the franchise as much as anything to be honest.

T1 and T2 were a cut above the average "Arnie movie" and I think an interesting story could be told in that world without that one actor, or that one model of Terminator for that matter.

Even way back in T3 (17 years ago!) it was an unnecessary stretch of the imagination to put him back in the role, finding yet another leather jacket, shades, and motor cycle, while we're all supposed to pretend that the killer robot doesn't look like the 55 year old man that he was.

Now's he 70+ and still doing it? I don't care how "legendary" the guy is, there's no version of a 70 year old killer robot that's going to make a good film.

Wedwood · 22-09-2020 11:10pm

There’s been nowhere (interesting) to bring the story since T2. T2 while it’s a great movie, just plays essentially the same story, with Arnie doing the Kyle Reese protector part against a terminator who looks a bit like Reese (similar build anyway).

After that, it’s mainly dross repeating itself. That said, Swarzenegger has somehow remained watchable in the later awful movies. Reminds me a bit of Roddy McDowell in the Planet of the Apes sequels.

Thargor · 23-09-2020 8:38am

Disagree about him remaining watchable, when he told the story of falling in love with his wife and child but not performing sexual functions on her I was shaking my head in amazement at how low things had gone. Really don't know why that scene doesn't get more attention/ridicule.

Dumping Skynet for the cheap, generic "Legion" from every boring AI gone mad story ever aswell, showed that the producers had no respect for the franchise or a clue what to do with it...

CastorTroy · 23-09-2020 9:09am

Said elsewhere but the best Terminator since T2 was Sarah Connor Chronicles.

Outside of 1 or 2 scenes I barely remember Dark Fate. Even had to Google to see what the plot was

jill_valentine · 23-09-2020 10:46am

Thargor wrote: »

Disagree about him remaining watchable, when he told the story of falling in love with his wife and child but not performing sexual functions on her I was shaking my head in amazement at how low things had gone. Really don't know why that scene doesn't get more attention/ridicule.

He explicitly says he does not love them.

All he says is "It's not physical", "perform sexual functions on her" is a weird way to present that. I'm not really sure why people need to believe Terminators f*ck.

beakerjoe · 07-01-2021 10:57pm

Just watched this tonight.

For me Salvation is the best of the post JD films. This isnt great but its better that T3 and Genesis. The movienisnt bad but the time travel logic and story of Arnies character is just pure nonsense.

It starts strong and the bew characters and Linda Hamilton all play their part but the film collapses when the mystery of the plot is revealed.

Its still a decent action flick but you have to ignore logic to enjoy it. Nothing on T2 and T1.

Church on Tuesday · 09-01-2021 4:51pm

Thargor wrote: »

Disagree about him remaining watchable, when he told the story of falling in love with his wife and child but not performing sexual functions on her I was shaking my head in amazement at how low things had gone. Really don't know why that scene doesn't get more attention/ridicule.

Dumping Skynet for the cheap, generic "Legion" from every boring AI gone mad story ever aswell, showed that the producers had no respect for the franchise or a clue what to do with it...

As far as I'm concerned, the film doesn't exist; like Geniysis or however you spell it, it's glorified fan fiction pandering to a Chinese market and a product of its time.

There really was no need to make films after T2 but for me, T3 did a decent job in continuing the story despite its many flaws.

Salvation, which interestingly has been reappraised in a more favorable light as a result of the recent awful films mentioned above, was at least something new and gave fans what they ultimately wanted and still want to see - a future war, however the execution was off.

No doubt the franchise will be re booted again in time, quite how that pans out will be anybody's guess.

Stark · 09-01-2021 4:54pm

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles is still the best post T1/T2 instalment for me.

beakerjoe · 09-01-2021 5:13pm

Stark wrote: »

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles is still the best post T1/T2 instalment for me.

But how good is that? Personally never watched it, looked a bit hammy.

The bar is very high to be as good as the first 2 movies, the bar however is very low for being the best movie since them.

Stark · 09-01-2021 5:23pm

It's a slow burner. I enjoyed the second season quite a lot. Much better than "Dollhouse" which it was cancelled in favour of anyway.

The White Wolf · 09-01-2021 6:02pm

The end of T3 I think is the best thing about the franchise post T2.....it's just a pity about the previous 2 hours or so.

jill_valentine · 09-01-2021 6:56pm

Stark wrote: »

Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles is still the best post T1/T2 instalment for me.

I loved it at the time and it had a lot of cool ideas to explore, but increasingly I think it hasn't aged well. Not just effects wise, but because it had a weird schizophrenic tone and pacing, and some stuff, like a talking Endo and the secret urinal t1000, is too goofy to look past.

I wouldn’t be averse to a rebooted version of it with a lot less network interference and filler episodes though, I think it could be legitimately worthwhile. Those writers etc are all still around and working, Friedman even worked on DF.

Stark · 09-01-2021 6:58pm

jill_valentine wrote: »

I loved it at the time and it had a lot of cool ideas to explore, but increasingly I think it hasn't aged well. Not just effects wise, but because it had a weird schizophrenic tone and pacing, and some stuff, like a talking Endo and the secret urinal t1000, is too goofy to look past.

I thought the urinal scene was brilliant

beakerjoe · 09-01-2021 7:07pm

The White Wolf wrote: »

The end of T3 I think is the best thing about the franchise post T2.....it's just a pity about the previous 2 hours or so.

Remind me, what happened then?

Terminator: Dark Fate **Spoilers from post 983**

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Terminator: Dark Fate Spoilers from post 983