Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 1:09pm

hots wrote: »

Jesus it's not all a tit-for-tat UsVsThem, you have close passes because some drivers are arsehles or incompetent (both). If adding a high-viz makes you 0.0001% less likely to be hit why wouldn't you wear it?

My subjective experience is you get more punishment passes and prank passes when you wear a lot of it.

The balance of evidence though, from what I've read and based on what Ian Walker has said, is that it doesn't make a lot of difference either way.

(I also could make myself a lot more than 0.0001% less likely to be injured by never drinking alcohol and then walking home, but I continue to do so.)

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 1:18pm

Scooter rear lights are hard to mount at an optimal height though. Bike lights have to be about 35cm above the ground to be legal. I suppose e-scooters still aren't legally allowed on the road, as things stand, and have no official lighting standards at all.

CHESSMUTANT · 30-06-2021 4:28pm

hots wrote: »

I wouldn't mandate it but do I think it's a good idea for...horse riders...to make themselves more visible

You don't think that horses are visible enough?
Horses?

breezy1985 · 30-06-2021 5:13pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Scooter rear lights are hard to mount at an optimal height though. Bike lights have to be about 35cm above the ground to be legal. I suppose e-scooters still aren't legally allowed on the road, as things stand, and have no official lighting standards at all.

If this was "after hours" ide post a link to a light that can be attached half way up the body to the rear

Eamonnator · 30-06-2021 5:22pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

If this was "after hours" ide post a link to a light that can be attached half way up the body to the rear

But, would that work?

breezy1985 · 30-06-2021 5:37pm

Eamonnator wrote: »

But, would that work?

It would be legal in one sense at least and I'm sure you would be more noticeable to traffic

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 6:58pm

I don't think you can legally light a scooter right now because it hasn't been legislated for. Some sort of a belt with a clip-on light seems a sensible approach, and is allowed as the sole rear light for cyclists in the Netherlands, but it's not the law here. Probably the best solution rather than thin-end-of-the-wedge hi-viz laws.

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 7:08pm

(NL passed legislation years ago to allow cyclists meet lighting requirements with lights worn on their person rather than attached to the bike.)

30-06-2021 7:17pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't think you can legally light a scooter right now because it hasn't been legislated for. Some sort of a belt with a clip-on light seems a sensible approach, and is allowed as the sole rear light for cyclists in the Netherlands, but it's not the law here. Probably the best solution rather than thin-end-of-the-wedge hi-viz laws.

I think I mentioned a lady I see about on a scooter with a decent light setup. I actually got chatting to her there one of the evenings while waiting to cross the road with the dog and it's one of these she uses https://www.decathlon.ie/lights/312549-3782-run-light-250-fw19-running-light-black.html#/demodelsize-200one_size_fits_all/demodelcolor-8573980?search=&display=&KW=&position=&device_model=

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 7:17pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

If this was "after hours" ide post a link to a light that can be attached half way up the body to the rear

Reminiscent of Nabokov's quite weird metaphor of two men inspecting a fallen bicycle's "anal ruby" in Bend Sinister.

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 7:23pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I think I mentioned a lady I see about on a scooter with a decent light setup. I actually got chatting to her there one of the evenings while waiting to cross the road with the dog and it's one of these she uses https://www.decathlon.ie/lights/312549-3782-run-light-250-fw19-running-light-black.html#/demodelsize-200one_size_fits_all/demodelcolor-8573980?search=&display=&KW=&position=&device_model=

Yeah, a light with a belt clip and a Sam Browne would work fine (and possibly satisfy the people who obsess with hi-viz, though full jackets seem to be the minimum acceptable for many), but at the moment all road vehicles need lights attached to the vehicle, and a certain distance above the ground. Not that e-scooters are road vehicles officially yet.

breezy1985 · 30-06-2021 7:25pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I don't think you can legally light a scooter right now because it hasn't been legislated for. Some sort of a belt with a clip-on light seems a sensible approach, and is allowed as the sole rear light for cyclists in the Netherlands, but it's not the law here. Probably the best solution rather than thin-end-of-the-wedge hi-viz laws.

Irish rules of the road on lighting are from the 1960s
They still talk about lights in size rather than watts or lumens.

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 7:31pm

Yes, if the gardaí were willing to turn a blind eye, as they do to bike lights that have an insufficient surface area, but they seem quite keen on looking up what the rules are when it comes to e-scooters.

Effects · 30-06-2021 8:23pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

My subjective experience is you get more punishment passes and prank passes when you wear a lot of it.

I can't quote a reference now, but aren't you more likely, statistically, to be involved in an accident if you are wearing hi vis?

tomasrojo · 30-06-2021 8:45pm

Effects wrote: »

I can't quote a reference now, but aren't you more likely, statistically, to be involved in an accident if you are wearing hi vis?

There might be, though I don't recall it here. The study done in Nottingham found no statistically significant effect. There was a Copenhagen study that found a few scenarios where "a yellow jacket" seemed to have a beneficial effect, but it had a response bias I'm not convinced they really corrected adequately for, and Ian Walker said a few interesting but not very enthusiastic things about it:
https://twitter.com/ianwalker/status/1380541925078491139

In other words, it's a study of how hi-viz might work in an environment where A a lot of danger is already removed through infrastructure, B there are presumed liability laws and C a large % of drivers will be active cyclists, rather than just "imacyclistmyself"

This is the take-home message for me, applicable to Ireland too, I think:
https://twitter.com/ianwalker/status/1380831494298566660

I think all we can realistically do is look across a range of studies, each of which comes at it from a different angle. Critically, I've not seen anything to make me think conspicuity aids have a substantial "naked eye sized" effect, especially in a context like UK

Seth Brundle · 21-07-2021 11:51am

https://twitter.com/SurreyRoadCops/status/1417526738674913280

https://twitter.com/SurreyRoadCops/status/1417526778919280642

21-07-2021 1:48pm

Hadn't seen this thread before, but about six weeks ago I was cycling in the countryside on a very bright and sunny evening. It was about 6.45pm and the start of June but still had front and rear lights going.

A tractor nudged out of a field, glanced my way and the other but never looked back my way. I was wary but still didn't think for a second he would pull out, but he did as I was about 5 metres from him going at 30kph.

I slammed on and bailed into the ditch before I could clip out and somehow managed to avoid going straight into the maws of the tractor and the bailing forks and mower to the rear.

I was shaken but just glad to escape a very close call so I just cycled off. About 20 metres up the road I heard the driver roaring at me and having come to a bit I turned around and went back.

He was shaking his fists and roaring about me not wearing a high vis jacket. I got angry and took photos of his reg and told him I was reporting him to the Gardaí. He said he was reporting me for not wearing a high vis. He seemed to think he was in the right because I was not wearing one.

I suggested we go straight to a nearby Garda station to get some clarity and he got nervous. I explained that he came really close to killing me and all he cared about was roaring at me about high vis when I was prepared to let it go.

I showed him a high vis gilet I always carry in pocket in case the light fades and finally he saw some sense and apologised.

I was very shaken after but it was amazing that the guy seemed to think that nearly killing me was my fault as I wasn't wearing a high vis.

kirving · 21-07-2021 2:00pm

Not excusing his behaviour, and I tend to be in favour of optional "hi-vis" (read: reflective) clothing, but I think what can tend to happen with the likes of builders, and farmers to a lesser extent, is that in their workplaces, everyone is required to wear hi-vis, and so they become accustomed to only looking for hi-vis.

The same of course is likely true for the likes of DRL's and Centre brake lights (I was rear-ended in a friends car without one, and I suspect it was a contributing factor)

magicbastarder · 21-07-2021 2:07pm

maybe we should ban builders and farmers from driving on public roads so, if their ability to spot other road users is compromised to that extent.

Macy0161 · 21-07-2021 2:16pm

Feck all farmers around me where hi-viz as routine anyway, even if I anyway brought that as contributory factor!

magicbastarder · 21-07-2021 2:37pm

i had a farmer look straight at me recently and pull out regardless. a real '**** you, law of the sea, you're going to have to stop for me' dick move, so i didn't stop.

tomasrojo · 21-07-2021 2:39pm

Seems to be really common for people in the wrong to immediately start blaming the other person for some perceived or quasi-plausible failing. But basically if you're manoeuvring tonnes of machinery, a quick glance when you're emerging from a side road isn't enough.

tomasrojo · 21-07-2021 3:05pm

One thing (which is not your fault, just to be clear) is if a driver glances at you and then glances in the other direction, best to prepare to stop. This goes for pedestrians, people in cars, everyone. If people don't give you I've-seen-you body language or "driving language" (if you see what I mean), move a little nearer the middle of the road (if no-one is behind you), slow down if you're going fast, keep your hands over the brakes and maybe even look for somewhere you can swerve into in the event they really hit the gas.

22-07-2021 8:26am

https://boards.ie/discussion/comment/117642233#Comment_117642233

I actually did all that believe it or not, and it's probably the only reason I wasn't killed.

I've had a few farmers of late see me and just pull out regardless as if I didn't exist or not wanting to get stuck behind me if they do.

This farmer didn't have a hi vis or his lights on and didn't have a cone or red flag out to indicate he was working in the field which is the norm.

I normally eye ball anyone looking to pull out in front of me and it's usually enough to make them think twice.

kirving · 26-07-2021 10:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117641741#Comment_117641741

In my most recent Safe Pass, it was suggested by the instructor that one of the reasons hi-vis was mandatory on sites was that it's what people were accustomed to looking for, just as much as the contrast in provided in certain situations.

I'd be interested to see though what percentage of collisions involve work vehicles such as tractors, JCB's and dump trucks, vs private cars. Normalised of course for the usage time and mileage of both sets.

ARX · 26-07-2021 1:20pm

I was watching a few videos of the cleanup operations in the Ahr valley in Germany after the flooding and it's noticeable how little hi-vis is used. It's not completely absent but there's not much of it. I've noticed the same on German building sites, quite common to see nobody with hi-vis.

zell12 · 24-10-2021 9:48am

Advertiser.ie- Mayo Gardaí will brighten up your day

All Garda cars in Mayo are to carry a stock of high-visibility vests to be given out to pedestrians and cyclists who may be poorly visible while using the roads.

zell12 · 06-11-2021 4:18pm

Be a moving xmas tree for £85

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/nov/06/see-the-light-the-best-cycling-jackets-to-keep-you-safe-at-night

Seth Brundle · 06-11-2021 8:48pm

But she was wearing high viz???

https://twitter.com/schenectady_s/status/1187740553250783234?t=w-2vhSoSfEs8DPrru7ezqA&s=19

Markcheese · 06-11-2021 10:21pm

Are ye watching a different video than I am ? The first thing I saw was the figure in the hi-viz jacket -

The second thing I noticed was the moving SUV -

But it's not armour -

Seth Brundle · 06-11-2021 10:51pm

Boards doesn't have a sarcasm smiley anymore but maybe I should have written the word for clarity.

High viz is touted by some as the be-all and end-all but as this and another examples show, it's not worth anything if drivers aren't paying attention.

Nigzcurran · 06-11-2021 11:07pm

I picked up a super bright high vis jacket last week and felt so much more secure on the bike knowing that I can be seen a lot easier than if I’m not wearing it, it’s not rocket science just common sense. High vis and a few flashing lights can save your life. Fact!

AndrewJRenko · 06-11-2021 11:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129575#Comment_118129575

What colour is your car?

Nigzcurran · 07-11-2021 12:04am

Go on I’ll bite, it’s grey why do you ask?

tomasrojo · 07-11-2021 12:23am

Well, grey isn't as bad as black, but it still has a high propensity to be in collisions

https://directautoinsurance.org/what-color-cars-get-in-the-most-accidents-and-get-hit-the-most/

tomasrojo · 07-11-2021 12:25am

It's detailed earlier in the thread, but there isn't any strong evidence that hiviz has a huge effect on collision rates.

magicbastarder · 07-11-2021 12:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129575#Comment_118129575

unfortunately, your use of 'Fact!' in relation to hi-vis - as tomasrojo mentioned - has not actually been proven as fact.

hi-vis is a reactive option, lights are a proactive option. i do choose to wear bright clothes when cycling at night (not that i've done that in over 18 months) because i believe they're probably better than dark clothes, but it's also partly so i won't be blamed for not wearing them if i come a cropper in a situation where they may not meake a difference.

Nigzcurran · 07-11-2021 12:51am

Ah lads yis are just being silly now. I drive for a living and I can see people wearing high vis easier and faster than someone wearing dark clothes, that’s not my opinion or a rumour, that is a fact! And by high vis I mean a bright green jacket with reflective strips on it

Nigzcurran · 07-11-2021 12:54am

And just to prove my point if you look at that link you provided it says black cars are the most dangerous to drive and white the safest

Nigzcurran · 07-11-2021 12:56am

The brighter the colour and the more lights the better. Stick a helmet on and a few basic rules of the road and your cutting out as much risk as possible

07-11-2021 1:10am

There's a reason it's called day glow yellow and not night glow because it doesn't actually glow in the dark. The reflective strips are conditional on a light source too. Lights are the best thing you can have in the dark. The people you are seeing are those directly in front of you and in the headlights which would be seen just as effectively with just lights, with just hi-vis oyu add factors such as dips/full beam and speed.

AndrewJRenko · 07-11-2021 1:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129617#Comment_118129617

Surely you'd feel so much more secure in a yellow or white car knowing that you can be seen a lot easier than in your grey one, it’s not rocket science just common sense. High vis panels on your car can save your life. Fact.*

Stick on a crash helmet, don't be one of the 98% of drivers that break urban speed limits, and you're cutting out as much of the risk as possible, given that far more people are killed and injured in cars than on bikes?

Or why would your risk reduction tactics only apply to cycling?

* Not actually a fact.

https://twitter.com/schenectady_s/status/1187740553250783234?t=WYi0Xqzutz41LIt0bb-vnw&s=19

tomasrojo · 07-11-2021 1:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118129928#Comment_118129928

There's a helmet mega thread as well, so I'm not going down that rabbit hole, but it's not a statistical slam dunk either.

I don't really know why you're driving a car that's relatively likely to be in a collision. Don't you want to "cut your risk as much as possible"?

Nigzcurran · 07-11-2021 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131023#Comment_118131023

Nah it’s luminous grey

tomasrojo · 07-11-2021 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131388#Comment_118131388

But is that really lowering your risk as much as possible? Remember it's not enough to be adequately cautious. We have to lower risk *as much as possible*.

tomasrojo · 07-11-2021 3:41pm

Just out of interest, is it phosphorescent or fluorescent paint? I'm assuming it's not radioluminescent.

magicbastarder · 07-11-2021 4:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131388#Comment_118131388

luminous or retroreflective?

just to be pedantic, luminous means it's emitting light itself; retroreflective means it reflects light that shines on it back towards its source. fluorescent means it absorbs light and it emits it back at a lower frequency.

i assume it's not phosphorescent (which is what those glow in the dark stickers and toys do after being exposed to light).

your bog standard builders vest is primarily brightly coloured and fluorescent - i.e. it absorbs UV light and re-emits it as yellow (or orange, or pink); as enfilade mentioned, that part doesn't really work in the dark unless there's a white light shining on them, and they're not much better than normal clothes under sodium lighting (which a lot of urban lighting comprises of) as sodium lamps emit on a single wavelength. the flashing on builders vests is retroreflective though.

tomasrojo · 07-11-2021 8:50pm

I think even LED street lights have a pretty negligible UV component.

All the same, the reflector bit on those vests is some use, from some angles, though reflectors are more effective a good bit lower down, like the white ones on panniers.

People can find their own optimal level of conspicuity above or at the legal minimum (one white front light, one red rear). If you're cycling on a quiet street with few junctions, optimal could well be the bare minimum.

AndrewJRenko · 07-11-2021 10:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118131388#Comment_118131388

Same colour as your crash helmet, presumably?

Nigzcurran · 07-11-2021 11:00pm

Yis are all mental lads! Absolutely away with the fairies so I’ll leave yis to it

Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

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