Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

tomasrojo · 07-11-2015 12:08pm

Cab redesign:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/23/revamped-lorry-designs-could-avoid-hundreds-of-cycling-deaths-study-claims

Image there also shows how completely the RSA misrepresents the nature of blind spots in their campaign upthread.

tomasrojo · 07-11-2015 12:10pm

Morgan believes banning trucks that weigh more than 3.5 tonnes from cities and building a network of distribution centres on the edge of towns, where goods can be decanted into smaller vehicles, would save lives. The practice is widespread in Germany, he said.

He said that fitting trucks with additional mirrors wouldn't solve the problem. "Mirrors obviously improve your field of vision but they are not as good as seeing things directly as you need extra time to interpret exactly where the person in the mirror is. Also, if you've got a mirror in front of your window it's going to be obscuring part of your view. Mirrors are often placed at the corners of vehicles so the mirrors themselves may be obscuring the cyclist. All in all, lower cabs with large windows, like buses or the newer dustbin trucks, are the solution in built-up areas."

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/bike-blog/2010/nov/18/hgv-city-ban-to-protect-cyclists

Rogue-Trooper · 07-11-2015 12:32pm

Just passed the entrance to Pavilions Shopping Centre in Swords and it looks like Garda Traffic are setting up one of their cyclist awareness thingies.

As well as the usual RSA vests and crappy free lights, more importantly they have a HGV tractor unit there that you can sit into. As Gadetra mentioned in her post, getting a cyclist into a cab so they can experience things from the HGV drivers perspective is invaluable.

eeeee · 07-11-2015 12:46pm

Redesign and mirrors (although I thinkt there is an argument against too many mirrirs, sensors and gadgets -your attention needs to be on the road at all times, glancing in mirrors but there comes a point at which mirrirs and safety features become distracting) are being developed all the time and will continue to be. Saferty features are continually being developed, their current largest short coming is other vehicles awareness of them and their blindspots and turning circles. Until an efficient system of replacement is in place we have to deal with HGV's, and consequently we need to know how to deal with them. They are part of traffic now, so awareness needs to be developed.

The iniative outside the Pavillion in Swords is an excellent idea, should happen all over the city on a regular basis.

Wishbone Ash · 07-11-2015 1:19pm

Rogue-Trooper wrote: »

Just passed the entrance to Pavilions Shopping Centre in Swords and it looks like Garda Traffic are setting up one of their cyclist awareness thingies...

:eek: The McNally Swords CC racing crew usually end up with a sprint there on a Saturday morning!

07Lapierre, Inquitus, Greenmat, manwithaplan, Robert Foster et al...take note!

Wishbone Ash · 07-11-2015 1:26pm

lower cabs with large windows, like buses or the newer dustbin trucks, are the solution in built-up areas

Lowering the cab is difficult especially on tractor units as the engine would have to be mounted behind the cab instead of under it increasing the length of the unit. The fifth wheel would have to be mounted further back. As a result, the overall length of the vehicle would increase necessitating a shorter trailer increasing overall costs. This would also create a large gap between the cab and the trailer increasing fuel consumption on long haul operations.

tomasrojo · 07-11-2015 2:22pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Lowering the cab is difficult especially on tractor units as the engine would have to be mounted behind the cab instead of under it increasing the length of the unit. The fifth wheel would have to be mounted further back. As a result, the overall length of the vehicle would increase necessitating a shorter trailer increasing overall costs. This would also create a large gap between the cab and the trailer increasing fuel consumption on long haul operations.

I assume that they don't envision the motorway-suitable HGVs being in town at all. So this redesign is for smaller redistribution vehicles -- I assume (again) about the size of a garbage truck.

On the subject of training and awareness, I have very little faith in these initiatives, for three reasons:

1) They've had cycle training in the UK for quite a while now, and it's had no impact, not even modest, on the proportion of cyclist deaths attributable to HGVs.
2) In Ireland, the training/awareness would fall to the Gardaí and RSA, who fundamentally have a windshield view of the world (despite what they might say), and regard healthy travel as a nuisance more than anything else. Which is why they consistently bungle the message and turn everything into victim-blaming, or just miss the point.
3) A good rule of thumb is the ethos of the Road Danger Reduction Forum in the UK: reduce danger at source. That means tackling HGV design where practical, and HGV prevalence where not.

Qualitymark · 07-11-2015 4:34pm

Again, might I suggest that a physical indicator of the trucks' blind spot, in the form of coloured light (this would work better after dark than during daylight, of course) might be a help - like this similar idea for a bicycle:

wendell borton · 07-11-2015 5:20pm

At the end of the day your safety is your own responsibility. Depending on technology or other road users attentiveness is a losing game, the best option is to just give HGV's a wide berth.

tomasrojo · 07-11-2015 5:35pm

wendell borton wrote: »

At the end of the day your safety is your own responsibility. Depending on technology or other road users attentiveness is a losing game, the best option is to just give HGV's a wide berth.

On a personal level, yes, that's the best option, but what should town planners and authorities do?

Your safety is not just your own responsibility either, really. People who put you in danger are regarded as culpable too, even if the intention was not to put you in danger.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 08-11-2015 4:57pm

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Lowering the cab is difficult especially on tractor units as the engine would have to be mounted behind the cab instead of under it increasing the length of the unit. The fifth wheel would have to be mounted further back. As a result, the overall length of the vehicle would increase necessitating a shorter trailer increasing overall costs. This would also create a large gap between the cab and the trailer increasing fuel consumption on long haul operations.

And the passenger seat would have to be removed from the cab completely

tomasrojo · 08-11-2015 9:08pm

Frances Ugly Shopkeeper wrote: »

And the passenger seat would have to be removed from the cab completely

Why's that?

Modern garbage trucks have passenger seats. I assume you mean the passenger (and/or the passenger seat) blocks the view of the driver?

tomasrojo · 09-11-2015 12:01pm

Volvo Life Paint! It's here! It's not very good!

My primary issue is that it’s a publicity stunt designed for Instagram rather than roads. If it doesn’t really show up in car headlights, it doesn’t work. And to suggest it does – and can somehow prevent the 19,000 bicycle accidents the publicity material suggests happen in the UK each year – is not only rather misleading but also irresponsible.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/nov/09/volvo-life-paint-hi-vis-cyclist-road-safety-review

Macy0161 · 10-11-2015 10:43am

Not sure if this is for the Hi Vis thread or the helmet thread, but those of us opposed to compulsory Hi-Viz and Helmets should take note at how the RSA are framing the debate... There's a section in their survey released yesterday on cyclists headed - "Safety gear compliance". It only mentions helmets and hi vis.

tomasrojo · 10-11-2015 11:01am

The RSA and the Gardaí do seem to have adopted a tactic of pretending that helmet and hi-viz laws are already in place (or that they're so very important that they effectively are legally required). I have heard Gardaí tell people that helmets are required by law, and others here have too. The information leaflet about Fixed-Charge Notices was designed largely to dupe people into thinking that helmet and hi-viz laws existed and were included in the new FCNs.

Bit like the way the post-Rising, pre-Independence Nationalists used to have parliamentary meetings and decide on policies, despite the fact that Ireland was still governed from Westminster.

Macy0161 · 10-11-2015 11:24am

It doesn't look like they even bothered to ask cyclists about lights when they were doing their "compliance" bit.

tomasrojo · 10-11-2015 11:32am

Yes, and use of lights would warrant the use of the word "compliance".

My usual response to just about anything the RSA (and to a large extent the Gardaí) have to say about cycling is just to roll my eyes. They pretty much are the @RoadSofaAuthority of Twitter fame.

tomasrojo · 10-11-2015 11:37am

In fact:

https://twitter.com/Flaminghobo1/status/664027299210240000

bambergbike · 10-11-2015 4:19pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

My usual response to just about anything the RSA (and to a large extent the Gardaí) have to say about cycling is just to roll my eyes. They pretty much are the @RoadSofaAuthority of Twitter fame.

Well, yes. I'm sort of resigned to the fact that even if things do change, the RSA will be the last people to get the memo.

But I'm still a bit irked by seeing their nonsensical personal protective equipment ideology data being reported, nay parroted, so completely uncritically by the Irish Times (silly hairstyles headline and all!) in a week when the sources of danger and inconvenience to cyclists in Ireland really were so screamingly obvious (from the RSA's own data on speeding, usefully supplemented by @cosain's tweets, and from the succinct summary of what's wrong with Irish cycle infrastructure on IrishCycle.

tomasrojo · 10-11-2015 7:03pm

The Irish Times' reporting on utility cycling is dreadful, and has been for some time. Not as bad as their reporting on the Irish economy during the property porn years (1999-2007), but really shoddy, inaccurate and lazy. Stenographers for the policy-based evidence-makers in the RSA.

tomasrojo · 12-11-2015 3:52pm

Look at how road.cc covers the RSA report and contrast with Irish media:

Ireland sees rise in cycling as a primary form of transport

http://road.cc/content/news/170866-ireland-sees-rise-cycling-primary-form-transport

Funny how the Irish media missed that bit.

Helmets and hi-viz an afterthought at the end of the road.cc article. Where they belong, frankly.

buffalo · 01-12-2015 9:52am

https://aseasyasridingabike.wordpress.com/2015/12/01/living-in-a-high-visibility-world/

A light but considered piece, with links to some literature.

enas · 01-12-2015 3:47pm

Do know if this has been posted: http://www.citylab.com/commute/2015/11/bad-drivers-are-forcing-an-english-town-to-paint-its-ponies/417915/

traprunner · 01-12-2015 4:22pm

Cheap hi-vis?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poundworld-fined-63k-for-selling-non-reflective-high-vis-jackets-a6746111.html

Qualitymark · 01-12-2015 5:24pm

traprunner wrote: »

Cheap hi-vis?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/poundworld-fined-63k-for-selling-non-reflective-high-vis-jackets-a6746111.html

I particularly like the line (bristle moustache):

"It was little more than an item of clothing."

tomasrojo · 19-12-2015 10:49am

Someone complained to Bexley Council when the man was apparently dressed as Father Christmas on patrol near Hurst Primary School.

Under the law lollipop crossing patrols must wear reflective clothing when helping school children to cross the street.

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/santadressed-lollipop-man-to-face-no-action-after-complaint-is-made-against-him-a3139931.html

It's ok! He was wearing hi-viz OVER his Santa costume. A massacre was avoided.

Comment:

I think Santa Claus stepping out in the road is more noticeable than a reflective vest!

tomasrojo · 14-01-2016 10:08am

I hesitate to post this, lest the RSA gets wind, but ...

A bill recently introduced in the state of Missouri would require anyone riding a bike on lettered county roads – all of Missouri’s rural highways – to fly a fluorescent orange flag. The flag would have to be “not less than fifteen feet above the motorway when the bicycle is standing upright.”

https://momentummag.com/a-proposed-missouri-bill-would-require-cyclists-to-fly-a-fluorescent-flag/?utm_content=bufferbeaa3&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Succinct commentary:
https://twitter.com/beztweets/status/687401752744849408

tomasrojo · 14-01-2016 10:18am

Also: orange? Don't they know yellow-green is the only colour to which the retina of the human eye is sensitive?

traprunner · 14-01-2016 10:20am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Also: orange? Don't they know yellow-green is the only colour to which the retina of the human eye is sensitive?

I presume that it's to match the prison jump suits many drivers think cyclists should be wearing.

Cookie_Monster · 14-01-2016 11:14am

tomasrojo wrote: »

I hesitate to post this, lest the RSA gets wind, but ...

https://momentummag.com/a-proposed-missouri-bill-would-require-cyclists-to-fly-a-fluorescent-flag/?utm_content=bufferbeaa3&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Succinct commentary:
https://twitter.com/beztweets/status/687401752744849408

what the actual?!? It's not even a piss-take :eek:

RainyDay · 20-01-2016 3:41pm

Not quite hi-vis, but in the same ballpark

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNiA38Z9dy8

Could be retitled as 'how to spend as much of your marketing budget as possible on one short and fairly pointless video'

brianomc · 20-01-2016 9:10pm

I saw a guy cycling down Aungier Street a week or 2 ago who had cut strips of hi-vis tape and stuck it to various parts of his bike/clothing. This included taping over his rear reflector. Which is more effective I wonder?

It seemed mad but I guess I did see him, my eyes were drawn to it all, I couldn't look away. If I was cycling at the time I may well have crashed into him or someone else. At what stage do you reach too much hi-vis?

CramCycle · 20-01-2016 9:28pm

RainyDay wrote: »

Could be retitled as 'how to spend as much of your marketing budget as possible on one short and fairly pointless video'

Why is McIlroy ther and how does he get to the conema before them, and why is he behind the counter, its all very odd

Eamonnator · 20-01-2016 11:47pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Why is McIlroy ther and how does he get to the conema before them, and why is he behind the counter, its all very odd

The Force must have been with him.

Raam · 21-01-2016 12:15am

Today I observed a family (mother, father and three kids) all decked out in their high-vis jackets walking to school. It's an urban area... with paths... in broad daylight.

I also observed other people who were not wearing high-vis.

Bit of a boring day really.

eeeee · 21-01-2016 12:46am

Raam wrote: »

Today I observed a family (mother, father and three kids) all decked out in their high-vis jackets walking to school. It's an urban area... with paths... in broad daylight.

I also observed other people who were not wearing high-vis.

Bit of a boring day really.

Grim

tigerboon · 21-01-2016 9:36am

Raam wrote: »

Today I observed a family (mother, father and three kids) all decked out in their high-vis jackets walking to school. It's an urban area... with paths... in broad daylight.

I also observed other people who were not wearing high-vis.

"You see, in this world there's two kinds of people, my friend.."

Wishbone Ash · 21-01-2016 10:12am

Raam wrote: »

Today I observed a family (mother, father and three kids) all decked out in their high-vis jackets walking to school. It's an urban area... with paths... in broad daylight....

The army can now regularly be seen operating with hi-viz vests over their camouflage fatigues!

RainyDay · 21-01-2016 10:47am

CramCycle wrote: »

Why is McIlroy there

Because Mork from Morketing in Santander had €80k left in his budget last November and would have been embarrassed to hand it back unspent.

Pinch Flat · 21-01-2016 12:47pm

Raam wrote: »

Today I observed a family (mother, father and three kids) all decked out in their high-vis jackets walking to school. It's an urban area... with paths... in broad daylight.

I also observed other people who were not wearing high-vis.

Bit of a boring day really.

Common enough around my area as well. One local school (not my own son's) seem to have a policy of kids arriving wearing hi-vis to school. I see one family with three kids all decked out in their finest RSA approved and branded hi-vis waiting for the bus most mornings. Handy if the bus accidentally mounts the kerb I suppose.:rolleyes:

My son's cub troop also wear hi-vis when out hiking - apparently so they can be head-counted easily, although I would have though their brightly coloured neckerchiefs would serve that purpose. But hey.

tomasrojo · 31-01-2016 11:51am

tomasrojo wrote: »

Cab redesign:

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/sep/23/revamped-lorry-designs-could-avoid-hundreds-of-cycling-deaths-study-claims

Image there also shows how completely the RSA misrepresents the nature of blind spots in their campaign upthread.

This redesign business (just the extra low window in the the door) in the paper in the UK:
https://t.co/p95EQNopl4

Industry agin' it.

(Sorry about posting here; this was the thread with the lorry redesign discussion, but it was a bit of a tangent to begin with.)

tomasrojo · 07-02-2016 6:56pm

This again.

Fianna Fail’s senate spokesperson on justice last week said they wanted to criminalise walking and cycling without high-visibility vests. The call seemed to be mainly referring to rural areas, but did not specify this.

http://irishcycle.com/2016/02/07/make-high-visibility-vests-mandatory-for-walking-and-cycling-says-fianna-fails-senate-spokesperson-on-justice/

Wishbone Ash · 07-02-2016 9:20pm

From the link above:

...and people cycling can be issued with on-the-spot fines using lights in the hours of darkness

A misprint I presume!

16-02-2016 12:31am

Not a cyclist but I walk a lot. Last week late in the evening saw a lot of people wearing hi vis vests walking their dogs. We were in the city and walking on paths so are they necessary? Felt a bit reckless just wearing my black fleece.

Like a sheep I got onto the RSA website but the vests are all out of stock....do I really need to purchase one?

tomasrojo · 16-02-2016 1:33am

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a cyclist but I walk a lot. Last week late in the evening saw a lot of people wearing hi vis vests walking their dogs. We were in the city and walking on paths so are they necessary? Felt a bit reckless just wearing my black fleece.

Like a sheep I got onto the RSA website but the vests are all out of stock....do I really need to purchase one?

the questions that should be asked, are:

– What is the evidence that wearing hi-viz is a sensible precaution, and in what circumstances?

– What are the consequences of use of hi-viz for those who don’t wear it?

And finally,

– In a culture which accepts hi-viz wearing as normal and desirable, what is the effect on the safety and well-being of cyclists and pedestrians generally?

http://rdrf.org.uk/2013/10/31/hi-viz-for-cyclists-and-pedestrians-sensible-precaution-or-victim-blaming/

At town driving speeds, drivers can stop within 10 metres. Are there any circumstances under which you would be visible in hi-viz and invisible without, when that close? Does it help (bends permitting) to be seen 50 or 100 metres away in this situation?

Coupled with the fact that you're walking on segregated footpaths/sidewalks/whatever you want to call them, it's hardly a vital issue in most urban scenarios.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 16-02-2016 2:11am

I can see it now...

Bob - "What are you in for?"
Jim - "I murderd somebody Bob, I murdered somebody and I liked it. What are you in for?"
Bob - "I didn't wear high viz clothing when I went to check on the cattle".

To be called a criminal for not wearing high viz is just bat shít crazy. Would they not just wrap up everybody in bubbles and keep us in a big soft room so we don't harm ourselves? Next you'll be fined for having untied shoe laces, like you could fall and hurt yourself...

rollingscone · 16-02-2016 11:33am

Mathias Quiet Cardboard wrote: »

I can see it now...

Bob - "What are you in for?"
Jim - "I murderd somebody Bob, I murdered somebody and I liked it. What are you in for?"
Bob - "I didn't wear high viz clothing when I went to check on the cattle".

To be called a criminal for not wearing high viz is just bat shít crazy. Would they not just wrap up everybody in bubbles and keep us in a big soft room so we don't harm ourselves? Next you'll be fined for having untied shoe laces, like you could fall and hurt yourself...

At the risk of sounding like a broken record:

https://twitter.com/Flaminghobo1?s=09

tomasrojo · 16-02-2016 12:08pm

rollingscone wrote: »

At the risk of sounding like a broken record:

https://twitter.com/Flaminghobo1?s=09

Mentioned there:

Press reported that an international safety conference made light of UK & Ireland #HiVis culture.No wonder everyone else in Europe is dead!

Is this just a spoof or did something like that happen? It wouldn't surprise me if some European nations looked askance at our archipelago's obsession with the totemic powers of yellowy-green.

ThisRegard · 16-02-2016 12:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not a cyclist but I walk a lot. Last week late in the evening saw a lot of people wearing hi vis vests walking their dogs. We were in the city and walking on paths so are they necessary? Felt a bit reckless just wearing my black fleece.

Like a sheep I got onto the RSA website but the vests are all out of stock....do I really need to purchase one?

Similar discussion arose some time ago in the Athletics forum. If I'm out running around the city at night, I'm always on footpaths and don't bother with hi-vis. Some people are of the mind that I'm putting myself in danger by doing so, because who knows, what if a car on the road was to try avoid hitting something on the road by swerving onto the footpath and driving over me because I'm not wearing high-vis.

tomasrojo · 16-02-2016 1:00pm

Of course, if you're driving in the city, you should be able to stop when you see something unexpected, or at least swerve and stop immediately after. If you end up leaving the road, Freebie and the Bean-style, maybe you're driving too fast for an urban environment.

Hi vis discussion thread (read post #1)

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