Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

bk · 09-08-2020 1:55pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Can the Enviro200EV charge from a 150kW power supply?

Interestingly they originally used, dual plug 2×40kW AC charging (total 80kW), but they are supposedly getting CCS DC fast charging from this year.

Now that I think of it the Volvo 7900e will probably be in the running for this too. There 12m model has a capacity of 95 passengers.

13-08-2020 9:22am

Where are the batteries located in them and does it have any impact to the interior of the bus for passengers?

For example, if the batteries are on the floor, does that mean a lower ceiling height? Are there any batteries at the rear where the diesel engine is?

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2020 10:39am

salonfire wrote: »

Where are the batteries located in them and does it have any impact to the interior of the bus for passengers?

For example, if the batteries are on the floor, does that mean a lower ceiling height? Are there any batteries at the rear where the diesel engine is?

On the Wrights they were above the wheel arch luggage racks on the ground floor which essentially just made the luggage racks above the wheel arches a lot higher than normal.

I can stand corrected though.

The batteries need to be as a low as possible given their weight.

p_haugh · 13-08-2020 11:26am

On the AHs that Dublin bus are trialling there's slightly less space at the back upstairs due to the placement of the batteries being at the back of the bus. I assume it will be a similar setup for the hybrids coming later this year

bk · 13-08-2020 11:58am

salonfire wrote: »

Where are the batteries located in them and does it have any impact to the interior of the bus for passengers?

For example, if the batteries are on the floor, does that mean a lower ceiling height? Are there any batteries at the rear where the diesel engine is?

For single deckers or double deckers?

For single deckers they are normally placed on top of the roof (and model depending some also placed in the rear compartment of the bus where the Diesel engine is normally in addition to the roof).

This usually means no change at all to the internal dimensions or capacity of the bus. It should look almost exactly the same as a Diesel bus inside, just quieter and an observant person might notice that the height of the bus is some what higher.

Here is what the ADL-BYD Envrio200EV in London looks like:

Note the bump on the top is the battery. I think they have a new design now that makes the bump less obvious.

If you click on this PDF, (scroll down to page 9) you can see a really interesting diagram of where all the batteries, charging equipment, motors, etc. are. Though note this is for a New Zealand model, I don't think UK/Ireland ones would have so much AC and therefore the layout is a bit different, but still interesting:
https://at.govt.nz/media/1976524/enviro200ev-brochure.pdf

Of course all of the above is based on the Enviro200EV, buses from different companies might have different layouts. Though batteries on roof is pretty common.

Double Deckers are more complicated, typically the batteries go inside the bus, down the back of the lower deck and do take up some passenger space unfortunately.

bk · 13-08-2020 1:47pm

Yes, I'm not sure where the batteries go on the Enviro400ER, the battery is much larger then the AH/Enviro400H and needs space for charging equipment too.

As an aside, I was just looking at the Specs of the double deck Optare Metrodecker EV used in London. Pretty impressive, 10.5m long, with 96 passenger capacity (63 seated). Looks like the batteries on this bus don't take up any passenger space. The downside compared to the EnviroE400EV is a range of 170 to 230km from the battery, due to smaller battery.

By comparison the Enviro400EV is longer 10.9m, but carries 85 passengers (67 seated) and 250km range.

Seems like the Optare is specced for more standing and thus more capacity, with a lighter body work and batteries. While the Enviro400EV has the more London Bus Busmaster spec, with more seating and more body weight (lots of glass) and bigger, heavier batteries.

Optare seems more like a Dublin Bus spec, though we have no experience with them. I wonder if ADL might consider doing an alternative Enviro400EV spec with lighter build and more passenger capacity.

BonnieSituation · 13-08-2020 2:22pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

On the Wrights they were above the wheel arch luggage racks on the ground floor which essentially just made the luggage racks above the wheel arches a lot higher than normal.

I can stand corrected though.

The batteries need to be as a low as possible given their weight.

I'm guessing this nonsense was really referring to the brake regen units which makes more sense.

I just couldn't visualize where batteries would be on a double decker knowing the single deckers have batteries on the roof.

bk · 13-08-2020 6:11pm

I found an image of the layout of the Enviro400H (AH), I'm guessing the Enviro400ER might be similar, with the batteries under the back seats upstairs. While the ER has a bigger battery, with battery tech getting smaller over the past ten years, perhaps they can fit the bigger battery in the same space.

BTW Interestingly these batteries and electrical systems on both the 400H and 400ER is supplied by BAE Systems.

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punisher5112 · 13-08-2020 6:15pm

I seen the back row is further towards the front upstairs from looking at it from outside.

bk · 13-08-2020 6:42pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

I seen the back row is further towards the front upstairs from looking at it from outside.

Could well be, though keep in mind these are 11m's long, versus the 10.5m of the SG class, so might not make much difference in practice.

BTW As I guessed, the new 32kWh battery pack is exactly the same dimensions as the old 1kWh battery pack in the 400H, though 170kg heavier. So yes, it is probably in the same space under the rear seats up top.

Spec for the BAE Series-E used in the Enviro400H here:
https://gettozero.com/series-e.php

Spec for the BAE Series-ER used in the Enviro400ER here:
https://gettozero.com/series-er.php

Side panel of the above pages has PDF's with detailed specs.

Interestingly BAE Systems also has a full EV system they launched last year, the Series-EV:
https://gettozero.com/series-ev.php

Obviously ADL is partnered with BYD for the double deckers at the moment, but maybe they will also do a future version with BAE Systems too in the future. Might be more suited to the NTA spec.

As an aside, this shows how fast battery tech is advancing. They can now fit a 32kWh battery in the same space as just a 1kWh battery 10 years ago. That is an x32 times improvement in just 10 years. These type of leaps in battery tech should make the double decker EV feasible.

punisher5112 · 13-08-2020 6:46pm

Are the fully electric singles still on trial, last time seen one was rathmines but that was before the pandemic. It was on British plates.

bk · 13-08-2020 8:04pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Are the fully electric singles still on trial, last time seen one was rathmines but that was before the pandemic. It was on British plates.

I think that was just for the NTA trial which has now ended. I think 4 fullEV single deckers were trialled. Anyone know what make/models they were? Might help indicate the buses in the running.

punisher5112 · 13-08-2020 8:20pm

bk wrote: »

I think that was just for the NTA trial which has now ended. I think 4 fullEV single deckers were trialled. Anyone know what make/models they were? Might help indicate the buses in the running.

This is the one I seen....

punisher5112 · 13-08-2020 8:20pm

White raised roof for batteries of course.
Alexander Dennis BYD on the rear in very small writing.

bk · 13-08-2020 9:04pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

White raised roof for batteries of course.
Alexander Dennis BYD on the rear in very small writing.

An Enviro200EV written on the back too. No surprise, likely to be a front runner for the single deck tender I'd say.

I think all the buses used in the trails were demo buses or borrowed from other countries. One was even a Right Hand Drive Biogas MAN bus!

punisher5112 · 13-08-2020 9:09pm

bk wrote: »

An Enviro200EV written on the back too. No surprise, likely to be a front runner for the single deck tender I'd say.

I think all the buses used in the trails were demo buses or borrowed from other countries. One was even a Right Hand Drive Biogas MAN bus!

Left hand I'm sure you meant, I understand;-).
Yea seen a photo somewhere of it.
I didn't think they were going full EV yet though as hybrid is all that's tendered isn't it.

GT89 · 13-08-2020 10:11pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Left hand I'm sure you meant, I understand;-).
Yea seen a photo somewhere of it.
I didn't think they were going full EV yet though as hybrid is all that's tendered isn't it.

Theres a tender for 200 single decker EVs. Not sure how many will be used in Dublin likely be used on the bus connect O route which has a low bridge so double deckers cannot be used on it. Say the rest could be for Cork, Galway and Limerick etc.

Peregrine · 13-08-2020 10:31pm

There will be plenty of need for single deckers in Dublin for local routes and orbitals under BusConnects

punisher5112 · 13-08-2020 10:35pm

GT89 wrote: »

Theres a tender for 200 single decker EVs. Not sure how many will be used in Dublin likely be used on the bus connect O route which has a low bridge so double deckers cannot be used on it. Say the rest could be for Cork, Galway and Limerick etc.

Ok so they're full EV. Sorry completely forgot.

GT89 · 13-08-2020 10:42pm

Peregrine wrote: »

There will be plenty of need for single deckers in Dublin for local routes and orbitals under BusConnects

Not sure what the fetish is for single deck buses. Obivoisly for the O route they make sense but I would personally if that was run as BRT using articulated vehicles not just standard single deckers. GAI have 40 streetlites which is morr than enough single deckers for lkcal and orbital routes.

The cost difference of running a single decker versus running a double decker is isn't huge and over capacity is always better than under capacity.

bk · 13-08-2020 11:05pm

GT89 wrote: »

Not sure what the fetish is for single deck buses. Obivoisly for the O route they make sense but I would personally if that was run as BRT using articulated vehicles not just standard single deckers. GAI have 40 streetlites which is morr than enough single deckers for lkcal and orbital routes.

The cost difference of running a single decker versus running a double decker is isn't huge and over capacity is always better than under capacity.

I suppose you could also ask what our fetish with Double Deckers is, given that is what we mostly use and we are pretty unique in that. The VAST majority of the world uses single deckers.

Only UK, Singapore, Hong Kong and some small amounts in Berlin and China use Double Deckers. US, most of mainland Europe, most of Asia, etc. use single deckers.

Double Deckers obviously have more seats, but they also have some serious issues:
- Very slow dwell times due to people struggling up stairs.
- Capacity not really being fully used due to people not checking up stairs.
- Less accessible for elderly, mobility impaired, etc. upstairs is out of bounds with them.
- People have issues with security upstairs.

And real world capacity of a multi-door single decker can reach or even go above a double decker. 95 people in a 12m single decker. Articulated buses can be up to 150 people. Though that is configured with more standing and less sitting.

It is a different way of thinking. Our bus system is designed to be very slow. People slowly boarding the bus, talk to the driver, up the stairs. Bus stuck in traffic, winding it's way through every estate on the way, of course you'd like a seat.

The single decker model is the opposite. Very fast, 3 or 4 doors, board through any door, don't talk to the driver, fast dwell time, don't spend lots of time at the stop, squeeze in any door to really fill the bus. More likely to stand, but you shouldn't be standing long as the buses are supposed to be faster and get you there faster. Think more like the Luas, mass transit.

punisher5112 · 13-08-2020 11:12pm

Biggest issues with single deckers is the tail swing and our bus stop infrastructure.... With parking allowed up to bus cages(bus stop bays), tiny streets and now with all this cycle paths and poles fitted buses don't even fit in the lanes....

Fairview after the footbridge heading out of the city, bus needs to exit the bus lane to actually clear these poles. Pure nuts complained and nothing done.

Lane layout changed and bus lane lines painted where the bus needs to actually put wheels on the white line which all other vehicles are on or over.....

Not enough place at stops to stop safely or to get in close enough for middle door safe usage.

Much much more.
Them streetlights are just terrible and way too long and turn angle is rubbish.

GT89 · 13-08-2020 11:50pm

bk wrote: »

I suppose you could also ask what our fetish with Double Deckers is, given that is what we mostly use and we are pretty unique in that. The VAST majority of the world uses single deckers.

Only UK, Singapore, Hong Kong and some small amounts in Berlin and China use Double Deckers. US, most of mainland Europe, most of Asia, etc. use single deckers.

Double Deckers obviously have more seats, but they also have some serious issues:
- Very slow dwell times due to people struggling up stairs.
- Capacity not really being fully used due to people not checking up stairs.
- Less accessible for elderly, mobility impaired, etc. upstairs is out of bounds with them.
- People have issues with security upstairs.

And real world capacity of a multi-door single decker can reach or even go above a double decker. 95 people in a 12m single decker. Articulated buses can be up to 150 people. Though that is configured with more standing and less sitting.

It is a different way of thinking. Our bus system is designed to be very slow. People slowly boarding the bus, talk to the driver, up the stairs. Bus stuck in traffic, winding it's way through every estate on the way, of course you'd like a seat.

The single decker model is the opposite. Very fast, 3 or 4 doors, board through any door, don't talk to the driver, fast dwell time, don't spend lots of time at the stop, squeeze in any door to really fill the bus. More likely to stand, but you shouldn't be standing long as the buses are supposed to be faster and get you there faster. Think more like the Luas, mass transit.

Oh I don't disagree with you there I would love to see the type of large three door single decker you get on the continent. Due to their lack of seating they can actually take the same amount of passengers that a double decker can take here.

However generally the single deck buses that have been on the market in the UK and Ireland have been of low capacity midi bus variety and only take around 50-70 passengers rather than 80-95 like on the continent. The type of electric single decks in the tender aren't exactly high capacity. My best guess would they wouldn't be much bigger than the Streetlites.

My personal preference would be that the main corridors be turned into BRT type operation with articulated buses with the associated infrastructure.

The other issue with dwell times is poor stop infrastructure. Buses having to battle their way out in and and out of tight bus stop cages especially in and around the core city centre. Some of designers of bus stops in Dublin need to be shot.

bk · 14-08-2020 11:41am

GT89 wrote: »

The type of electric single decks in the tender aren't exactly high capacity. My best guess would they wouldn't be much bigger than the Streetlites.

According to the tender documents, it looks like they are looking for the longer single deckers for this order:

subject to the vehicle length being greater than 10.7 metres but not exceeding 12.3 metres;

BTW it also sounds like they are looking for single and dual door models. So no tri-door luas type buses unfortunately.

BBTW They also mention that these can end up at DB, BE, GA and Citydirect and any possible future PSO operator. So sounds like they will be used anywhere that single decker PSO buses are currently used.

Anyone any idea how many single deck city buses BE have?

They are also looking for 150kw CCS2 charging capability. So if ADL want to put forward the Enviro200EV, it will need to be their newer model with CCS supposedly due this year.

As an aside, I'd assume there will need to be a separate tender for the installation of chargers in depots.

punisher5112 · 14-08-2020 12:13pm

Next big headache is where they will fit chargers.....

GT89 · 14-08-2020 12:19pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Next big headache is where they will fit chargers.....

I'd imagine it wouldn't be a big deal in newer depots like Harristown or the GAI depot in Ballymount. Older depots that are tigher for space would be more difficult. I'm not why charging facilities weren't installed or at least wired up ready when ready to go when GAI opened their depot.

L1011 · 14-08-2020 12:21pm

There will be electrical upgrades required at depots and potentially with the local distribution network also.

punisher5112 · 14-08-2020 12:37pm

Which will take a considerable amount of time....

Donnybrook has s sub station basically across the road but it's opposite side of the bridge...

Can see this been very slow to be honest. Maybe only small number of buses at a time and have a few charge units fitted.

Wonder will they start out inside the sheds or outside.

bk · 14-08-2020 1:11pm

What I wonder is, will this install chargers for the 400ER's or not, at least initially.

Obviously the single deckers will require chargers, but DB doesn't have many single deckers anyway. I'd assume GA's new depot was designed with this at least somewhat in mind and they operate most of the single deckers in Dublin. If DB get some of them, perhaps they could just operate those out of one of their bigger depots that have space for chargers.

But the thing about the 400ER's is that while they are plug in hybrids and it would be better to charge them, they don't actually need to be charged. They can operate as a pure hybrid without charging. The Diesel engine can run when leaving the depot and it can basically charge up the battery to then use in full EV mode once it reaches the core city center.

These buses are a series hybrid, which means they are actually driven by the electric motor, not the Diesel engine. There is actually no mechanical link between between the engine and the axle. So you can really think of the Diesel engine as a generator, rather then an engine.

Obviously not charging first is not great for efficiency. But it does allow for great flexibility for the NTA and DB. They can roll out the buses first, without first installing the chargers, rolling out the chargers more gradually. They can also move them around different depots, even if lets say initially only one or two depots have chargers.

The more I think of it, the more a smart, flexible buy that the 400ER's seem to be. Roll them out as pure hybrids first, then over a few years make them more efficient by installing chargers (which also lays the ground work for future full EV Double Deckers) and finally make them even more efficient by switching to use Biofuel/HVO.

I can totally see fitting chargers to all depots and upgrading sub-stations, etc. could be a multi-year project. They will have 5 to 6 years breathing space with the 400ER to roll out chargers at most depots (not single decker ones) before they start to get full EV double deckers.

GT89 · 14-08-2020 2:38pm

bk wrote: »

What I wonder is, will this install chargers for the 400ER's or not, at least initially.

Obviously the single deckers will require chargers, but DB doesn't have many single deckers anyway. I'd assume GA's new depot was designed with this at least somewhat in mind and they operate most of the single deckers in Dublin. If DB get some of them, perhaps they could just operate those out of one of their bigger depots that have space for chargers.

But the thing about the 400ER's is that while they are plug in hybrids and it would be better to charge them, they don't actually need to be charged. They can operate as a pure hybrid without charging. The Diesel engine can run when leaving the depot and it can basically charge up the battery to then use in full EV mode once it reaches the core city center.

These buses are a series hybrid, which means they are actually driven by the electric motor, not the Diesel engine. There is actually no mechanical link between between the engine and the axle. So you can really think of the Diesel engine as a generator, rather then an engine.

Obviously not charging first is not great for efficiency. But it does allow for great flexibility for the NTA and DB. They can roll out the buses first, without first installing the chargers, rolling out the chargers more gradually. They can also move them around different depots, even if lets say initially only one or two depots have chargers.

The more I think of it, the more a smart, flexible buy that the 400ER's seem to be. Roll them out as pure hybrids first, then over a few years make them more efficient by installing chargers (which also lays the ground work for future full EV Double Deckers) and finally make them even more efficient by switching to use Biofuel/HVO.

I can totally see fitting chargers to all depots and upgrading sub-stations, etc. could be a multi-year project. They will have 5 to 6 years breathing space with the 400ER to roll out chargers at most depots (not single decker ones) before they start to get full EV double deckers.

So I'm guessing from what you are saying the engine on these hybrids is similar to a diesel train or a ship if it's a diesel generator powering an electric motor.

punisher5112 · 14-08-2020 2:53pm

Big issue I see here is gai are leasing the site.

If big money is put in on chargers and upgrades and they lose the depot or hell leave at end of contract, what happens then.... I can see db been the safest option as all depot are fixed as in not going anywhere.

GT89 · 14-08-2020 3:16pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Big issue I see here is gai are leasing the site.

If big money is put in on chargers and upgrades and they lose the depot or hell leave at end of contract, what happens then.... I can see db been the safest option as all depot are fixed as in not going anywhere.

Even if the GAI lose the contract for the routes it would be logical to keep the Ballymount site in use as a bus garage. Quite a lot of money went into the fitting out the place with workshops, bus wash etc. I'd imagine so it would be likely that the incumbent operator would keep the site as it would be a lot cheaper and easier to use an existing depot rather than opening a new depot from scratch.

If the routes go back to DB it would be logical for them to have ankther depot to facilitate an expansion in service which has been seen over the last couple of years.

bk · 14-08-2020 3:24pm

GT89 wrote: »

So I'm guessing from what you are saying the engine on these hybrids is similar to a diesel train or a ship if it's a diesel generator powering an electric motor.

Yep, exactly.

On the topic of the GAI depot, given that fleets of buses, coaches, vans and trucks are likely to be going electric over the next decade, I'd say charging infrastructure installed there would be seen as a valuable asset for any company taking it over, either DB, another PSO operator, private operator or even Van/Haulage companies.

Having said that, I'd be shocked if GAI aren't around for the long haul. Them taking over BE routes in addition to DB routes says to me that they are here for the long haul. If anything I expect them to expand in time.

dublinman1990 · 14-08-2020 3:32pm

Re: Single deck electric buses.

I have been thinking for a while about how the EV single deckers are being re-charged while it's in the depot. I'm seeing variant of the Volvo 7900 that have a very big charging dock with a big claw type mechanism over it while it acts as a power source to recharge the battery of the bus while it's recharging on the rooftop.

It's this type of machine that I'm talking about which is shown here that recharges this single deck bus in the depot. Is that type of machine to recharge the bus, shown above, either optional or mandatory to re-charge the Volvo 7900 & other single deck electric buses like the ADL Enviro 200EV?

Would there a big price difference in purchasing either the Volvo 7900 & the ADL Enviro 200EV?

Will Volvo Buses provide the Volvo 7900 if they win the tender from the NTA?

TIA.

GT89 · 14-08-2020 3:33pm

bk wrote: »

Yep, exactly.

On the topic of the GAI depot, given that fleets of buses, coaches, vans and trucks are likely to be going electric over the next decade, I'd say charging infrastructure installed there would be seen as a valuable asset for any company taking it over, either DB, another PSO operator, private operator or even Van/Haulage companies.

Having said that, I'd be shocked if GAI aren't around for the long haul. Them taking over BE routes in addition to DB routes says to me that they are here for the long haul. If anything I expect them to expand in time.

Well if Arriva for example were to say beat Go-Ahead to the contract in the years to come. I can't any logic in them opening an entirely new depot when there's a depot there ready to be used. But yes you are right Go-Ahead are likely here for the long term or at least aim to be considering the NTA are moving away from net cost direct award contracts to CIE companies and toward gross cost tendering in the provision of PSO bus services.

bk · 14-08-2020 4:02pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Re: Single deck electric buses.

I have been thinking for a while about how to re-charge the EV single deckers while it's in the depot. I'm seeing variant of the Volvo 7900 that have a very big charging dock with a big claw type mechanism over it while it acts as a power source to recharge the battery of the bus while it's recharging on the rooftop.

It's this type of machine that I'm talking about which is shown here that recharges this single deck bus in the depot. Is that type of machine to recharge the bus, shown above, either optional or mandatory to re-charge the Volvo 7900 & other single deck electric buses like the ADL Enviro 200EV?

No, the NTA have specified in the tender a pretty standard 150kW CCS 2 system for charging.

Basically the same as what you see on most EV cars these days. A cable that runs from the charger to the vehicle that you plug in yourself almost like a petrol pump.

The above pylon style charging is a different concept. You basically have less batteries in the bus, maybe only about 30 to 50km range, but you have those pylons along the route where you can recharge it in 15 minutes.

The operating model that the NTA is going for seems to be charging overnight in the depot and enough range for a full days operation without needing to charge outside the depot.

To be honest I feel the Pylon approach is a poor and expensive operating model, that only made sense when batteries are very expensive. The full days range approach is better and the obvious choice with dropping battery costs.

Imagine the planning objections to such pylons outside the depot and the safety and maintenance cost with pylons like this spread throughout the city!!

BTW Volvo's naming of their bus is a bit confusing. They have an old Vovlo 7900e that used Pylon charging, but they also now have a new 7900e (2019) models the support up to 250kWh of batteries and standard 150kw CCS charging, exactly like what the NTA are looking for, so that would be a runner. BTW I assume the 7900e out at the airport is one of the latter.

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Would there a big price difference in purchasing either the Volvo 7900 & the ADL Enviro 200EV?

No idea

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Will Volvo Buses provide the Volvo 7900 if they win the tender from the NTA?

They could do, it seems to match the NTA's requirements.

Another option is that next year, they are partnering with MCV to do a MCV bodied 7900e.

Also reading the tender docs, they have posted some replies to questions. No names are given in these files, but I feel based on some of the questions/answers, Wrightbus might tender as part of a consortium. So perhaps a Wrightbus bodied Volvo7900e is a possibility.

dublinman1990 · 14-08-2020 7:02pm

That's great bk. Thanks for your reply.

It's good to know that the EV chargers can be used to power an EV bus for the long term. It's a hell of a lot easier & cheaper to install them at ground level & then to re-charge them like a normal vehicle. I suppose you would need specialized areas to re-charge this bus if pylons were used around on the various PSO bus routes here that would be hanging over the bus with the lack of proper technology in place during the initial stages of the buses manufacturing process.

The likelihood that Wrights will go into a potential consortium to build the Volvo 7900 e with other bus builders may sound like a good possibility.

But Wrights as we all know haven't had a good time with their recent financial reputation being in tatters with them going into administration in Ballymena last year. I would assume that a consortium to build this bus with other companies with the potential for it to go into the Irish market is a more cost effective idea to keep them going in the bus building business for a while longer. And Covid also has provided a big challenge to bus building manufacturers like Wrights in continuing with orders coming in & maybe drying up from transport operators & authorities while their factories around the world remained closed during the height of the pandemic including in NI. ADL had to put out a lot of redundancies in their factories recently because of reduced demand arising from Covid.

Do Wrights have lots of orders continuing to come in their business before Covid?

punisher5112 · 14-08-2020 7:05pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

That's great bk. Thanks for your reply.

It's good to know that the EV chargers can be used to power an EV bus for the long term. It's a hell of a lot easier & cheaper to install them at ground level to charge them like a normal vehicle. I suppose you would need specialized areas to re-charge this bus if it was using a pylon that is over hanging the bus with the lack of proper technology in place during the initial stages of the buses manufacturing process.

The likelihood that Wrights will go into a potential consortium to build the Volvo 7900 sounds like a good possibility.

But Wrights as we all know haven't had a good time with their recent financial reputation being in tatters with them going into administration in Ballymena around December/January just gone out. I would assume that a consortium to build this bus with other companies with the potential for it to go into the Irish market is a more cost effective idea to keep them going in the bus building business for a while longer.

And Covid also has provided a big challenge to bus building manufacturers like Wrights in continuing with orders coming in & maybe drying up from transport operators & authorities while their factories around the world remained closed during the height of the pandemic including in NI. ADL had to put out a lot of redundancies in their factories recently because of reduced demand arising from Covid.

Do Wrights have lots of orders continuing to come in their business before Covid?

Wright's is gone in the sense it under jcb now as they bought it up....

I honestly believe it was a big scam with the previous set up and money pumped out to the church set up by one of the Wright's..... Millions given under charity status even though the company was struggling....
Nuts

devnull · 14-08-2020 7:48pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

The likelihood that Wrights will go into a potential consortium to build the Volvo 7900 e with other bus builders may sound like a good possibility.

bk wrote: »

Another option is that next year, they are partnering with MCV to do a MCV bodied 7900e.

Also reading the tender docs, they have posted some replies to questions. No names are given in these files, but I feel based on some of the questions/answers, Wrightbus might tender as part of a consortium.
So perhaps a Wrightbus bodied Volvo 7900e is a possibility.

I think that people are seriously misunderstanding the Volvo product range here and are coming to very inaccurate conclusions and then deriving some ideas from those conclusions that are complete non runners.

The Volvo 7900 is not a bus chassis, it is complete bus itself which is exclusively bodied on either the Volvo B5LH, Volvo B5L (including those in Singapore), Volvo B9L, Volvo B9LA or built as a full integral vehicle as in the case of a 7900E rather than a traditional body on chassis.

It is true that Volvo are looking to offer an electric chassis option in the future for the UK and Ireland market, but there has been no announcement as to what this might be called, but it will not be the 7900E, which will always be a full Volvo product. In the left hand drive market, Volvo have launched a self charging hybrid chassis called the B5L S-Charge.

bk · 14-08-2020 10:10pm

devnull wrote: »

I think that people are seriously misunderstanding the Volvo product range here and are coming to very inaccurate conclusions and then deriving some ideas from those conclusions that are complete non runners.

The Volvo 7900 is not a bus chassis, it is complete bus itself which is exclusively bodied on either the Volvo B5LH, Volvo B5L (including those in Singapore), Volvo B9L, Volvo B9LA or built as a full integral vehicle as in the case of a 7900E rather than a traditional body on chassis.

It is true that Volvo are looking to offer an electric chassis option in the future for the UK and Ireland market, but there has been no announcement as to what this might be called, but it will not be the 7900E, which will always be a full Volvo product. In the left hand drive market, Volvo have launched a self charging hybrid chassis called the B5L S-Charge.

All true. Perhaps I wasn't clear in how I worded.

Obviously the 7900E is a Volvo integral. So all Volvo Vehicle. It is a modified B5LH chassis.

It now looks like they are starting to use this electric chassis with others body builders. Volgren in Australia have been announced last month for 900 buses, as have MCV.

In fairness I think most people here understand the difference between an integral and a body on chassis and the long history of Wrights building buses on Volvo Chassis. So when I said Volvo 7900e using Wrights body, I'd assume most here would understand what that meant. Using the chassis, drive train, electrical system found in the 7900e (with perhaps some tweaks) but with a Wrights/MCV bodywork up top.

Part of the cause of confusion is that Volvo haven't really named this new Electric chassis offering yet. Though I've seen mention of it called Volvo BE, but nothing official. Thus the awkward naming.

Having said that we could see Volvo make two different offers here:
- A Volvo 7900e integral and
- A Wrights or MCV bodied with a "Volvo Electric Chassis".

Similar to how both a Wrights integral and a Vovlo Chassis + Wrights body were offered for the Hybrid double decker bid.

Of course this is all just guessing on my part. Volvo might have no interest at all.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Wright's is gone in the sense it under jcb now as they bought it up....

Yes, they are now owned by Bamford Bus Company, but still seem to trade as Wrights.

dowlingm · 15-08-2020 1:53pm

bk wrote: »

It now looks like they are starting to use this electric chassis with others body builders. Volgren in Australia have been announced last month for 900 buses, as have MCV.

I notice that a lot of local manufacture of transport vehicles tends to happen in Australia using partnerships with Aussie companies or using Aussie subsidiaries. Is it a trade policy thing, where Volvo just wouldn't have been able to sell externally produced buses into Aus without hassle?

GT89 · 16-08-2020 9:12am

dowlingm wrote: »

I notice that a lot of local manufacture of transport vehicles tends to happen in Australia using partnerships with Aussie companies or using Aussie subsidiaries. Is it a trade policy thing, where Volvo just wouldn't have been able to sell externally produced buses into Aus without hassle?

Could be to do with the costs of importing a bus from Europe to Australia

GT89 · 17-08-2020 1:58pm

Would an electric version of Mercedes Citaro be an option

bk · 17-08-2020 2:59pm

GT89 wrote: »

Would an electric version of Mercedes Citaro be an option

Yep, an eCitaro exists.

Interestingly they offer two battery techs, one being Solid State Batteries, which is the next frontier for battery tech. Though I'm not sure if they are really delivering buses with these batteries yet.

p_haugh · 28-08-2020 2:55pm

As seen on the Irish Road Passenger Transport Forum, dublinbuses.com has stated that the new hybrids are expected to be delivered to Dublin Bus and will be type-classed AP. Will be on routes 4, 9, 122 & 123 to start supposedly.

punisher5112 · 28-08-2020 5:36pm

Thought they'd be called AH as in h for hybrid.

GT89 · 28-08-2020 5:46pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Thought they'd be called AH as in h for hybrid.

Probably to distinguish them from the current AH class which are of a different bodywork

bk · 28-08-2020 7:21pm

GT89 wrote: »

Probably to distinguish them from the current AH class which are of a different bodywork

Plus different Hybrid system, battery size, plug, etc.

It is a pity that the AH is already taken.

GT89 · 28-08-2020 7:22pm

bk wrote: »

Plus different Hybrid system, battery size, plug, etc.

It is a pity that the AH is already taken.

I thought they were the same just different bodywork.

punisher5112 · 28-08-2020 7:26pm

Which one is the Ah ?

Electric, Hydrogen & Hybrid Electric Buses in Ireland

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