Parents allowed baby to become severely malnourished on vegan diet

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 11:59am #1

Should a vegan diet be banned for kids under a certain age.

https://news.sky.com/story/parents-allowed-baby-to-become-severely-malnourished-on-vegan-diet-11791045

Tar.Aldarion · 22-08-2019 4:24pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Should a vegan diet be banned for kids under a certain age.

https://news.sky.com/story/parents-allowed-baby-to-become-severely-malnourished-on-vegan-diet-11791045

No, it's certified as healthy by health organisations. Anybody can feed their baby a bad diet.

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 4:27pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

No, it's certified as healthy by health organisations. Anybody can feed their baby a bad diet.

Totally agree any parent can give their kids a bad diet no denying that. It does seem very irresponsible though to give a child a vegan only based diet especially in the young years.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 5:20pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Totally agree any parent can give their kids a bad diet no denying that. It does seem very irresponsible though to give a child a vegan only based diet especially in the young years.

Why so?

Mitch Connor · 22-08-2019 5:22pm

Not vegan myself, just annoyed by the headline of the post as I knew what the op would be.

The issue is not the vegan part of the diet. The issue is not providing a sufficient diet regardless of its base.

A properly managed vegan diet would have seen no issue and only a moron would think otherwise.

auspicious · 22-08-2019 5:31pm

Just bad parenting.

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 5:38pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

Why so?

Possibly because it’s not a balanced diet. Purely plant based is not balanced.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 5:40pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Possibly because it’s not a balanced diet. Purely plant based is not balanced.

So you are an authority on that subject?

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 5:41pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Not vegan myself, just annoyed by the headline of the post as I knew what the op would be.

The issue is not the vegan part of the diet. The issue is not providing a sufficient diet regardless of its base.

A properly managed vegan diet would have seen no issue and only a moron would think otherwise.

The headline of the post is the headline of the article seemed sensible to use it. No need to be annoyed it’s a discussion.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 5:42pm

People choose a plant-based diet for a variety of reasons including concern about the treatment of animals, health reasons, environmental concerns or because of taste and social pressure. Plant-based diets are becoming more popular and if they are well-planned, can support healthy living at every age and life-stage.

Src> https://www.bda.uk.com/foodfacts/plant-based_diet

Plus many, many more.

eviltwin · 22-08-2019 5:45pm

Once it's well researched and balanced I don't see the issue. Unfortunately people don't do this particularly in terms of the additional needs of children and they run into issues.

A vegetarian/vegan diet can be healthy or unhealthy just like any diet. Veganism isn't the issue here.

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 5:46pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

So you are an authority on that subject?

No are you? The post is discussing an article today from Sky presumed this would be the best place to ask thoughts on.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 5:47pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

No are you? The post is discussing an article today from Sky presumed this would be the best place to ask thoughts on.

I am not the person saying it isn't a balanced diet though. You are.

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 5:50pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

I am not the person saying it isn't a balanced diet though. You are.

It’s my opinion as stated I am not an expert just my believes.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 5:51pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

It’s my opinion as stated I am not an expert just my believes.

Beliefs and facts are not always good bedfellows. Perhaps do some research before you state that it is not a balanced diet, when in-fact it is.

eviltwin · 22-08-2019 5:52pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

It’s my opinion as stated I am not an expert just my believes.

And yet many of us follow such a diet and are perfectly healthy

faceman · 22-08-2019 5:53pm

As posters mentioned a vegan diet is not the issue, it’s the lack of an appropriate diet for a baby

Afaik if a baby isn’t being breast fed, there are no suitable vegan friendly milk alternatives. Babies and children require a higher amount of calcium than adults which they normally get from milk

I imagine the risk of iron deficiency would be another challenge with a vegan baby’s diet too if not managed correctly.

Disclaimer I’m not a vegan.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 5:53pm

eviltwin wrote: »

And yet many of us follow such a diet and are perfectly healthy

And raise children in the same way.

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 5:53pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

Beliefs and facts are not always good bedfellows. Perhaps do some research before you state that it is not a balanced diet, when in-fact it is.

Well in the case of this child it does not to have seemed so.

osarusan · 22-08-2019 5:54pm

Plenty of people do it without issue.

Therefore it's possible, and if people are not doing it properly, it's because they are not careful enough about it.

You could say they same about any parent, although excluding a particular food group means that an extra level of care is needed to ensure nutritional needs are being met.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 5:55pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Well in the case of this child it does not to have seemed so.

You're still doing it wrong.

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 5:56pm

faceman wrote: »

As posters mentioned a vegan diet is not the issue, it’s the lack of an appropriate diet for a baby

Afaik if a baby isn’t being breast fed, there are no suitable vegan friendly milk alternatives. Babies and children require a higher amount of calcium than adults which they normally get from milk

I imagine the risk of iron deficiency would be another challenge with a vegan baby’s diet too if not managed correctly.

Disclaimer I’m not a vegan.

osarusan wrote: »

Plenty of people do it without issue.

Therefore it's possible, and if people are not doing it properly, it's because they are not careful enough about it.

You could say they same about any parent, although excluding a particular food group means that an extra level of care is needed to ensure nutritional needs are being met.

Both excellent points.

eviltwin · 22-08-2019 5:57pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

And raise children in the same way.

And if the children are healthy is that a problem?

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 5:58pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

You're still doing it wrong.

I have no idea what you mean by this. I am more than happy to discuss but perhaps you could add some value to the conversation because at the moment you are not.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 6:09pm

eviltwin wrote: »

And if the children are healthy is that a problem?

Exactly, I have 3 healthy vegan children at home. Doctors are always impressed with their status if they need to visit.

_Brian · 22-08-2019 6:12pm

Bad parenting is just bad parenting and they should be held accountable.

Don’t think it should be used to target veganism though, it’s too important to be used as a social football.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 6:17pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean by this. I am more than happy to discuss but perhaps you could add some value to the conversation because at the moment you are not.

You are making statements that a vegan diet is not balanced. It is and is certified as such by numerous professional and governmental bodies around the world. Your points are wrong, your belief / opinion is wrong. I can't be clearer than that I'm afraid.

The parents in this case could well have malnourished their child on any diet. You choose, wrongly, to state that it is because of the type of diet. When in reality it is not.

satguy · 22-08-2019 6:21pm

Vegans and Jehovah's Witnesses can sometimes blindly put ideology / lifestyle choices in the way of healthy choices.

Let the child when old enough make up it's own mind up, and choose how he / she will eat or pray.

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 6:22pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

You are making statements that a vegan diet is not balanced. It is and is certified as such by numerous professional and governmental bodies around the world. Your points are wrong, your belief / opinion is wrong. I can't be clearer than that I'm afraid.

The parents in this case could well have malnourished their child on any diet. You choose, wrongly, to state that it is because of the type of diet. When in reality it is not.

The article states it and I personally agree with it but was interested in other opinions it’s called a discussion. I know you are new to boards but discussions are what we have here.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 6:25pm

satguy wrote: »

Vegans and Jehovah's Witnesses can sometimes blindly put ideology / lifestyle choices in the way of healthy choices.

Let the child when old enough make up it's own mind up, and choose how he / she will eat or pray.

Until then force them to eat dead animals though? A diet that contains both type 1 an 2 carcinogens, sure, healthy.

As stated a vegan diet is healthy. Bigotry on the other hand?

What veganism and religion have to do with other I have no clue. Other than some weak whataboutery.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 6:29pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

The article states it and I personally agree with it but was interested in other opinions it’s called a discussion. I know you are new to boards but discussions are what we have here.

The article does not state that a vegan diet is unbalanced or un healthy. You do. The duration of my account bears no relevance to the discussion. Again, your statement is wrong.

looksee · 22-08-2019 6:30pm

Nobody forcefeeds a baby dead animals, but do vegan parents consider breast milk to be non-vegan? If they do then I have instantly lost any sympathy I might have had for the various arguments.

eviltwin · 22-08-2019 6:31pm

satguy wrote: »

Vegans and Jehovah's Witnesses can sometimes blindly put ideology / lifestyle choices in the way of healthy choices.

Let the child when old enough make up it's own mind up, and choose how he / she will eat or pray.

I put convenience first. The kids eat what I eat, I'm not cooking multiple meals. If they want meat they can cook their own.

looksee · 22-08-2019 6:32pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I put convenience first. The kids eat what I eat, I'm not cooking multiple meals. If they want meat they can cook their own.

That's evidently what the Australian parents said.

eviltwin · 22-08-2019 6:35pm

looksee wrote: »

That's evidently what the Australian parents said.

They should have done more research

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 6:37pm

looksee wrote: »

Nobody forcefeeds a baby dead animals, but do vegan parents consider breast milk to be non-vegan? If they do then I have instantly lost any sympathy I might have had for the various arguments.

Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.

Donnielighto · 22-08-2019 6:43pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.

What would be the stance if the mother has issues producing breastmilk. I wonder if that would be an exception to allow dairy or if there are vegan substitutes. Beestings is fairly heavy on nutrients. Just curious here btw.

looksee · 22-08-2019 6:45pm

How would doing more research have helped if they worked on the basis of 'they eat what I eat' and don't consider breast milk vegan? Which comes back to the question of - would vegan parents deny a newborn baby breast milk?

2Mad2BeMad · 22-08-2019 6:46pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.

What about milk from a cows tit? Is that vegan

jh79 · 22-08-2019 6:46pm

Donnielighto wrote: »

What would be the stance if the mother has issues producing breastmilk. I wonder if that would be an exception to allow dairy or if there are vegan substitutes. Beestings is fairly heavy on nutrients. Just curious here btw.

According to a quick google If you can't breast feed then you shouldn't adopt a vegan diet for a child. Seems there is no suitable vegan formula .

While a vegan diet for a child is possible there is a greater risk of malnutrition unless it is extremely well planned.

dudara · 22-08-2019 6:48pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

Breast milk from humans is of course vegan. People force their children to eat meat, they puree it into baby food for example.

Im not trolling here, but I want to understand this. Breast milk is an animal product. How can it be considered vegan? Mom can of course, have a vegan diet, but she herself is an animal. How does the logic work here?

eviltwin · 22-08-2019 6:50pm

looksee wrote: »

How would doing more research have helped if they worked on the basis of 'they eat what I eat' and don't consider breast milk vegan? Which comes back to the question of - would vegan parents deny a newborn baby breast milk?

You're talking about a baby here. A baby can't eat what an adult eats and has different nutritional needs. They should have used the pregnancy to learn about how best to manage them.

I post that my kids eat what I eat but mine aren't babies and are perfectly capable of making meat for themselves if they want. I would of course have no problem making a separate meal for a small child or baby.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 6:54pm

Donnielighto wrote: »

What would be the stance if the mother has issues producing breastmilk. I wonder if that would be an exception to allow dairy or if there are vegan substitutes. Beestings is fairly heavy on nutrients. Just curious here btw.

People get vegans and veganism wrong all the time, it is not about being perfect in any way. Vegan is where possible and practical to avoid the use of animals for food, entertainment, clothing etc. That's it, if you look at the vegan society website in the UK it has more info.

If a mother, for whatever reason can not produce milk for her child it would be irresponsible and downright stupid to not use a formula. There are, however vegan formulas available (only recently) which fill the growing market. They are suitable from birth too.

https://www.plantbasednews.org/lifestyle/vegan-baby-formula-what-you-need-to-know

lawred2 · 22-08-2019 6:55pm

TCP/IP wrote: »

Totally agree any parent can give their kids a bad diet no denying that. It does seem very irresponsible though to give a child a vegan only based diet especially in the young years.

Whereas any old shoite from the frozen food section is grand

TCP/IP · 22-08-2019 7:01pm

lawred2 wrote: »

Whereas any old shoite from the frozen food section is grand

No it’s not any nobody said that.

realmoonunit · 22-08-2019 7:02pm

dudara wrote: »

Im not trolling here, but I want to understand this. Breast milk is an animal product. How can it be considered vegan? Mom can of course, have a vegan diet, but she herself is an animal. How does the logic work here?

It is from our species and indeed from the mother of the child. Not taken from another species who's offspring had to be removed in order to harvest it. The human mother gives her milk to her offspring willingly and with pride.

When vegans talk about animals they are referring to other species I.E. non human animals. That doesn't mean that vegans have no care for other humans, typically far from it infact.

So in answer to your next question, would I eat human? No.

But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.

Donnielighto · 22-08-2019 7:05pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

It is from our species and indeed from the mother of the child. Not taken from another species who's offspring had to be removed in order to harvest it. The human mother gives her milk to her offspring willingly and with pride.

When vegans talk about animals they are referring to other species I.E. non human animals. That doesn't mean that vegans have no care for other humans, typically far from it infact.

So in answer to your next question, would I eat human? No.

But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.

Also it's fine considering "the animal" in case is completely on board you'd assume.

auspicious · 22-08-2019 7:19pm

dudara wrote: »

Im not trolling here, but I want to understand this. Breast milk is an animal product. How can it be considered vegan? Mom can of course, have a vegan diet, but she herself is an animal. How does the logic work here?

'Non' trolling mod have a read here and answer the question yourself. It's quite an easy one.
https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism

jackboy · 22-08-2019 7:49pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.

Northern Europeans have evolved to consume bovine milk so we are designed for it.

gozunda · 22-08-2019 7:55pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

It is from our species and indeed from the mother of the child. Not taken from another species who's offspring had to be removed in order to harvest it. The human mother gives her milk to her offspring willingly and with pride.

When vegans talk about animals they are referring to other species I.E. non human animals. That doesn't mean that vegans have no care for other humans, typically far from it infact.

So in answer to your next question, would I eat human? No.

But why is it acceptable to give human children bovine milk? It is in no way designed for us.

Considering that logic - plant food taken from another species is removed in order to harvest it.

And yes I know the theory of sentience. Plants are sentient on a different level to us - the same doesn't stop it being speciest to suggest that their offspring were "designed for us" either

Most animal species do not eat or predate their own kind.

That said why is acceptable to take plants offspring (which are also in no way designed for us) - but not other species?

is_that_so · 22-08-2019 8:03pm

realmoonunit wrote: »

The article does not state that a vegan diet is unbalanced or unhealthy. You do. The duration of my account bears no relevance to the discussion. Again, your statement is wrong.

It tends to. Often the duration of an account and where that account posts suggests an "agenda" or it may just be a troll. You couldn't know these things because you haven't been around long enough!

Parents allowed baby to become severely malnourished on vegan diet

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