Replacment for Cessna 172

California Dreamer · 16-10-2020 6:05pm

Are we privy or is it ok to ask where the PC-12s are flying to?

FR24 shows lots of flights to Liege for instance. Is that tests?

Psychlops · 16-10-2020 10:16pm

Great new DF podcast speaking to Mr Barcoe, 280 will eventually get the paint scheme of the rest, it was priority to get it & start using it first & that was more important than painting her.

California Dreamer · 22-10-2020 6:56am

Psychlops wrote: »

Great new DF podcast speaking to Mr Barcoe, 280 will eventually get the paint scheme of the rest, it was priority to get it & start using it first & that was more important than painting her.

Very good listen!

California Dreamer · 11-01-2021 9:47am

Was randomly looking at a youtube video the other day of the PC-24.

Would that be a natural replacement for the Learjet when its retirement is due?

Is the flight deck set up the same as the PC-12?

source · 11-01-2021 10:24am

California Dreamer wrote: »

Was randomly looking at a youtube video the other day of the PC-24.

Would that be a natural replacement for the Learjet when its retirement is due?

Is the flight deck set up the same as the PC-12?

That would be a serious drop in capability, 14 pax down to 8 pax and a range reduction from 7,800km to 3,300km (according to Wikipedia).

Dohvolle · 11-01-2021 11:43am

The PC24 was designed for PC12 customers who wanted Turbofan instead of turboprop. I.e Bizjet with rough field performance.
If anything what replaces the Lear should be something far larger. They lost capability with the loss of the G4, which could seat up to 19, depending on configuration. If you went for something more airliner sized, you could manage some troop rotations too, not to mention, having seen in recent days, Covid supplies bungeed into the corner of the Casa, some useful military freight capacity too.
When we replace anything we need to gain capability, not lose it.

Peregrine · 11-01-2021 12:10pm

source wrote: »

That would be a serious drop in capability, 14 pax down to 8 pax and a range reduction from 7,800km to 3,300km (according to Wikipedia).

Are you sure you're looking at the Learjet 45? I don't think Learjet has ever made an aircraft with that kind of range or passenger capacity. That sounds like the Gulfstream.

source · 11-01-2021 1:00pm

Peregrine wrote: »

Are you sure you're looking at the Learjet 45? I don't think Learjet has ever made an aircraft with that kind of range or passenger capacity. That sounds like the Gulfstream.

You're right, looking at it again it was the gulfstream IV I was looking at not the Learjet 45 which has similar capacity and range as the PC 24.

Larbre34 · 12-01-2021 3:02am

As of the first outbreak of Covid, when we had repatriation issues and PPE transport issues, Varadkar was making the case for a heavier airlifter, either a tactical military version like a C-130 Hercules or an airliner with modular fitout like the RNZAF 757s.

Thats not the first time it's been mooted, the Air Corps even had a model of an A320 painted in their colours trying to convince the Govt it needed one.

No doubt there are bean counters coming up with a thousand reasons why not to get one and I could come up with a thousands reasons in favour of it, not least of which is there will not be a cheaper time for many year to pick up a barely used airframe for buttons than now, or indeed to secure a very competitive leasing arrangement from someone like Aer Lingus to wet or dry lease a modern jet for State use from their stored inventory.

Dohvolle · 12-01-2021 10:05am

Larbre34 wrote: »

As of the first outbreak of Covid, when we had repatriation issues and PPE transport issues, Varadkar was making the case for a heavier airlifter, either a tactical military version like a C-130 Hercules or an airliner with modular fitout like the RNZAF 757s.

Thats not the first time it's been mooted, the Air Corps even had a model of an A320 painted in their colours trying to convince the Govt it needed one.

No doubt there are bean counters coming up with a thousand reasons why not to get one and I could come up with a thousands reasons in favour of it, not least of which is there will not be a cheaper time for many year to pick up a barely used airframe for buttons than now, or indeed to secure a very competitive leasing arrangement from someone like Aer Lingus to wet or dry lease a modern jet for State use from their stored inventory.

The leasing of a commercial airliner for military use has its own problems. While we have leased in the past it has mostly been for VIP aircraft, such as the HS125 or Gulfstream. Leasing a commercial aircraft comes with T&Cs, most of which insist you use it according to civil regulations and airfields, not military ones. A civilian lease would have served no use last march, as most airports were closed to commercial traffic. Better off buying outright. I know a B737 size was considered in the past, either a BBJ or an A319. Problem is both types would struggle to operate from Baldonnel as it is currently set up.

Thing is anything is better than nothing, at the moment we have nothing.

roundymac · 12-01-2021 12:32pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

As of the first outbreak of Covid, when we had repatriation issues and PPE transport issues, Varadkar was making the case for a heavier airlifter, either a tactical military version like a C-130 Hercules or an airliner with modular fitout like the RNZAF 757s.

Thats not the first time it's been mooted, the Air Corps even had a model of an A320 painted in their colours trying to convince the Govt it needed one.

No doubt there are bean counters coming up with a thousand reasons why not to get one and I could come up with a thousands reasons in favour of it, not least of which is there will not be a cheaper time for many year to pick up a barely used airframe for buttons than now, or indeed to secure a very competitive leasing arrangement from someone like Aer Lingus to wet or dry lease a modern jet for State use from their stored inventory.

It should be pointed out to the"bean counters" that that is all they are,

jonnybigwallet · 12-01-2021 12:37pm

There are some great bargains out there at the moment. A340's and even A380's.

Dohvolle · 12-01-2021 1:20pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

There are some great bargains out there at the moment. A340's and even A380's.

There is a reason there are A380 being scrapped in Knock.
https://flyinginireland.com/2020/02/up-to-four-airbus-a380s-to-be-scrapped-in-knock/

Because of it's wake, it requires a larger take off and landing slot at airports. It also needs more seperation in the air for similar reasons. Fine in rural backwater, but when you are operating in any of the international airports, it means a bigger gap between flights. Consequently busy international airports did not want to accept flights by this aircraft during peak times. Anyone who has experienced the Dublin Airport morning rush will know how tight the normal slots are.

punchdrunk · 13-01-2021 1:24am

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

There are some great bargains out there at the moment. A340's and even A380's.

always with the solid insight Jonny :pac:

roundymac · 13-01-2021 11:48am

Your not even funny any more jonnybigwallet any chance you'd do a Trump on it and fcuk off into the sunset.:(

jonnybigwallet · 13-01-2021 12:13pm

No need to be insulting. I'll report you if you continue in this vein

Manic Moran · 13-01-2021 5:07pm

[Mod]OK guys. Johnny, no need for the pithy comments. Roundy, you can report things, no in thread moderation please.[/Mod]

roadmaster · 13-01-2021 10:52pm

When the guards are replacing there fixed wing i wonder will the government suggest the pc12, it would save on pilot training

donvito99 · 13-01-2021 11:04pm

roadmaster wrote: »

When the guards are replacing there fixed wing i wonder will the government suggest the pc12, it would save on pilot training

A PC12 wouldn't really do what the Defender does - fly around slowly in tight orbits for a long time.

sparky42 · 14-01-2021 12:12am

roadmaster wrote: »

When the guards are replacing there fixed wing i wonder will the government suggest the pc12, it would save on pilot training

I think when the Tender/order went out that was talked about, but the defender is still going.

Larbre34 · 14-01-2021 2:53am

donvito99 wrote: »

A PC12 wouldn't really do what the Defender does - fly around slowly in tight orbits for a long time.

Quite right. But with a proper surveillance suite on board would a new Garda plane need to orbit like a Defender? Surely a combination of a PC-12 Spectre and the helos is comprehensive air support?

To my mind, 4 x PC-12s won't be that busy at the same time anyway, couldn't one of them be tasked to Garda cooperation whenever a fixed wing presence is needed?

roadmaster · 14-01-2021 9:59am

Larbre34 wrote: »

Quite right. But with a proper surveillance suite on board would a new Garda plane need to orbit like a Defender? Surely a combination of a PC-12 Spectre and the helos is comprehensive air support?

To my mind, 4 x PC-12s won't be that busy at the same time anyway, couldn't one of them be tasked to Garda cooperation whenever a fixed wing presence is needed?

Are the 4 planes not out the door as it is. By getting the existing platforms to do the garda work would be no different to EAS and leave the fleet short instead of having extra dedicated aircraft. Imagine if the had kept the dauphins they would have being ideal for EAS. Besides I don't think the guards would want to share there toys but it would still be better to have common state aircraft where possible

roadmaster · 14-01-2021 10:04am

sparky42 wrote: »

I think when the Tender/order went out that was talked about, but the defender is still going.

Is there something about crews not liking to fly the defender?

Dohvolle · 14-01-2021 10:26am

roadmaster wrote: »

Is there something about crews not liking to fly the defender?

There has been lots of issues over the years. It's fine for what it does, but we have moved on.
Remains to be seen whether the Existing PC12s with surveillance suites will replace the GASU Defender in many of it's current roles.
Whether AGS decide then to replace the Defender with their own PC12 (there is already an option for another PC12 for this purpose) or at all is up to them.

jonnybigwallet · 14-01-2021 10:41am

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/airbus/french-gov-a340-bargain-sale/

Just to add something to my previous post which refers to potential purchase of a strategic airlifter as proposed by Leo Varadkar.

Dohvolle · 14-01-2021 10:46am

Too big.
Cheap to buy but costly to operate. There's a reason the French are dumping it. The french don't throw away something just cos it's old.

Manic Moran · 14-01-2021 4:01pm

For GAS purposes, it doesn't have to be a manned aircraft, though I guess I can imagine Irish Civil Liberties folks going ape over the idea.

About as cheap as you can get is what the US has started doing: Mount the sensor suite of a Predator under the wing of a C-172.

It's actually being done for military simulation purposes, it's cheaper to fly than an actual Predator, but it is listed as an option for civil support operations when there is a request for air coverage with a note that when considering the bill to be paid at the end, this is about at the bottom of the scale. C-172 may be a little -too- small, but it goes to show you can mount good optics on almost anything.

Dohvolle · 14-01-2021 4:26pm

Manic Moran wrote: »

For GAS purposes, it doesn't have to be a manned aircraft, though I guess I can imagine Irish Civil Liberties folks going ape over the idea.

About as cheap as you can get is what the US has started doing: Mount the sensor suite of a Predator under the wing of a C-172.

It's actually being done for military simulation purposes, it's cheaper to fly than an actual Predator, but it is listed as an option for civil support operations when there is a request for air coverage with a note that when considering the bill to be paid at the end, this is about at the bottom of the scale. C-172 may be a little -too- small, but it goes to show you can mount good optics on almost anything.

It isn't so much about size, but endurance. The aircraft needs to be able to loiter for extended periods taking into consideration crew comfort. (the Defender went u/s when the toilet wasn't working). While Air Corps may be happy to wear a nappy, you won't get that past the GRA/AGSI.
The other requirements after that are garda comms (not the easiest with tetra) and video downlink.

Larbre34 · 14-01-2021 7:19pm

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

https://airwaysmag.com/industry/airbus/french-gov-a340-bargain-sale/

Just to add something to my previous post which refers to potential purchase of a strategic airlifter as proposed by Leo Varadkar.

Have a day off ffs.

donvito99 · 14-01-2021 7:32pm

A number of UK police forces used Defenders, NPAS now uses four Vulcanair (formerly Partenavia) P68s.

Replacment for Cessna 172

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