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Fire at Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris

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    #932
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Wayne Gorsky wrote: »
    Good article…do we know exactly what sort of work was done up there just before the fire. i.e. in the relevant time frame? Surely, the folks involved there will know, I don’t…

    From various reports - afaik it was indicated that restoration itself hadn't started. The scaffolding had been erected - including the installation of
    temporary elevator. The statues adjacent to the spire had just been removed in preparation of the work commencing.


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    #933
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    gozunda wrote: »
    From various reports - afaik it was indicated that restoration itself hadn't started. The scaffolding had been erected - including the installation of
    temporary elevator. The statues adjacent to the spire had just been removed in preparation of the work commencing.


    Yeah, I mean had any welding or cutting or so been done on that day in the area in question, basically anything producing sparks or flames, and what tools would have been used and possibly left there on that day...those would be among my first questions if I was a fire investigator anyway…and this clip is interesting re the whole “electrical fault” version and that elevator, and from a mainstream source…


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    #934
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,262 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Did the Chief Architect of the Church say there was no work in the place it started.

    That is not conclusive, nor necessarily indicative but in the rush to pronounce absolution by blaming the wiring, it is worth noting.

    I can completely understand why they would deny arson, thing like that could start a civil war.

    Same as the Islamist prick who planned to machine gun a Mass there but shot himself in the foot on the way to the door, or the woman on trial for trying to blow it sky high for Allah, this week.

    An attack on Notre Dame would leave Bataclan or the twin towers in the hapenny place, even if no dead or less.


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    #935
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,634 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    The people in charge of Notre Dame are the ones who put it out there as an accident with zero evidence either way, and the media ran with it. How on earth could they be so confident even as the fire still burned to call it an accident considering all the fires and damage to other churches in the build up to the Notre Dame fire.


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    #936
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Lots of fairly factless opinionising here.


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    #937
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Lots of fairly factless opinionising here.


    So, Mr. von Peppercorn, what do you think happened? In detail like…


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    #938
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,262 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Lots of fairly factless opinionising here.

    We know that attacks on French Churches are endemic.

    We know that Islamists have repeatedly targeted Notre Dame in the last few years. Their own mistakes being the only thing between a Mass bloodbath.

    What is your current reactionary take on the fire?


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    #939
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Wayne Gorsky wrote: »
    So, Mr. von Peppercorn, what do you think happened? In detail like…

    Electrical fault.


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    #940
    Franz Von Peppercorn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,070 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn


    Danzy wrote: »
    We know that attacks on French Churches are endemic.

    We know that Islamists have repeatedly targeted Notre Dame in the last few years. Their own mistakes being the only thing between a Mass bloodbath.

    What is your current reactionary take on the fire?

    Electrical fault. Which isn’t “reactionary”. You might want to look up a dictionary.


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    #941
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Electrical fault.

    But was there electricity in the area at the time in question? There shouldn't have been...


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    #942
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,634 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »
    Lots of fairly factless opinionising here.


    Saying it was an accident as it burned was a baseless conclusion.


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    #943
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    This Twitter account has a series of videos and photos showing the fire and its spread from the spire along the length of the roof. Scroll down to see the first video with just smoke coming from the Spire and then watch later videos and photos how the fire spread


    https://mobile.twitter.com/herpsonc/status/1117833995801309185


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    #944
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Wayne Gorsky wrote: »
    Yeah, I mean had any welding or cutting or so been done on that day in the area in question, basically anything producing sparks or flames, and what tools would have been used and possibly left there on that day...those would be among my first questions if I was a fire investigator anyway…and this clip is interesting re the whole “electrical fault” version and that elevator, and from a mainstream source…

    I took a look at what the press in France were saying and it looks like the Restorers and the joint company responsible for the erection of the scaffolding confirmed that there had been no hot work involving soldering etc
    There was no work by hot spots or electrical work. Only a few people were involved in erecting the scaffolding. "The assembly is a hammer and a (special) key"

    They also stated that
    The elevators were seven to eight meters from the cathedral. "At the end of the construction site, as recommended by one of the many draconian safety measures, the men cut off the power supply specific to the construction site, lights and elevator. "The electrical cabinet is then locked and the key given to the concierge," said Marc Eskenazi, advisor in this time of crisis. "When the fire started, no more employees were there," he says.

    The company confirmed there were two elevators in use that day. But that these were some 7 to 8 metres away from the roof construction area.

    The fact that it is believed that the fire started st the base of the Spire means it is difficult to reconcile any cause attributed to the lift mechanisms.

    That said it would appear that the company are getting thrown under the bus with regard to various allegations and accusations in the press and elsewhere with regard to short circuits and scaffolding etc.


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    #945
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    gozunda wrote: »
    I took a look at what the press in France were saying and it looks like the Restorers and the joint company responsible for the erection of the scaffolding confirmed that there had been no hot work involving soldering etc



    They also stated that



    The company confirmed there were two elevators in use that day. But that these were some 7 to 8 metres away from the roof construction area.

    The fact that it is believed that the fire started st the base of the Spire means it is difficult to reconcile any cause attributed to the lift mechanisms.

    That said it would appear that the company are getting thrown under the bus with regard to various allegations and accusations in the press and elsewhere with regard to short circuits and scaffolding etc.

    yup, all a tad nebulous at this point, and just another set of open questions...


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    #946
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    When I was a younger fella (mid 90's) my father won an all expenses paid trip to Disneyland Paris. He gave it to my 2 sisters, my nephew and I. It was incredible. There was a Hunchback of Notre Dame themed banquet. All the grub you can eat with the characters serving you in Disneyland. I'll take that memory to the grave.

    As I got older, I was brought back again to Paris by one of my sisters. 13 years old with said nephew at my side. Old enough to appreciate the place but not old enough to get lost on the Metro for a few hours. That was scary! I wasn't too fond of Paris after that. Fast forward another 8 years and I'm living in Paris with work and looking at Notre Dame in all its glory nearly every day. An absolute stunning piece of architecture. I wasn't fond of Paris but loved Notre Dame. Was mostly a nice part of my life.


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    #947
    marieholmfan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,744 ✭✭✭marieholmfan


    Snotaul Goodman wrote: »
    I wasn't fond of Paris but loved Notre Dame. Was mostly a nice part of my life.
    Glad you had the happy memories from your time working there. Was the nephew with you when you got lost?


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    #948
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    The latest I read (on german msn) re cause of fire is that some workers were smoking up on the scaffolding, against the strict rules of course…wouldn’t want to be them right now…probably nothing to do with the fire anyway...


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    #949
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users Posts: 35,634 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY4NC2yW63E



    How can they deny someone was on roof when it's there on tape, and it's there that they lit something on fire in the exact place the fire started.


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    #950
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NY4NC2yW63E



    How can they deny someone was on roof when it's there on tape, and it's there that they lit something on fire in the exact place the fire started.

    depends on when exactly that was taken, and on whether site security know who it was and what the person was doing there...


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    #951
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Wayne Gorsky wrote: »
    The latest I read (on german msn) re cause of fire is that some workers were smoking up on the scaffolding, against the strict rules of course…wouldn’t want to be them right now…probably nothing to do with the fire anyway...

    According to some of the French press - the latest theory is that members of the cathedral staff had installed a system of electronic bells in the central spire.

    Allegedly these were installed against fire regulations and without clearing the installation with the relevant authorities. The suggestion is that the wiring may have been damaged whilst the scaffolding was being erected.

    https://www.marianne.net/societe/notre-dame-des-cloches-sauvages-et-electrifiees-l-origine-de-l-incendie


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    #952
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    gozunda wrote: »
    According to some of the French press - the latest theory is that members of the cathedral staff had installed a system of electronic bells in the central spire.

    Allegedly these were installed against fire regulations and without clearing the installation with the relevant authorities. The suggestion is that the wiring may have been damaged whilst the scaffolding was being erected.

    https://www.marianne.net/societe/notre-dame-des-cloches-sauvages-et-electrifiees-l-origine-de-l-incendie


    illegal bells? oh boy...


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    #953
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Update:

    Forensic probe at Notre Dame begins (PARIS)
    French police scientists and other expert investigators are starting to examine Notre Dame Cathedral for the first time since last week’s devastating fire.

    A police official said teams from three different police agencies are entering the monument Thursday to take samples and search for clues as to what caused the fire. Police made a preliminary visit last week but weren’t able to conduct a thorough examination until the cathedral’s structure was secured.

    More:
    http://time.com/5577874/notre-dame-fire-police-investigations/


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    #954
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    gozunda wrote: »
    Update:

    Forensic probe at Notre Dame begins (PARIS)



    More:
    http://time.com/5577874/notre-dame-fire-police-investigations/


    “French police scientists and other expert investigators are starting to examine Notre Dame Cathedral for the first time since last week’s devastating fire”…these guys all seemed to be pretty sure on day one…wonder if the more recent story with those bells and the connected unauthorised wiring turns out to be true, or if that was just more bs…well, it would have been an accident then, just one based on criminal negligence…


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    #955
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Wayne Gorsky wrote: »
    “French police scientists and other expert investigators are starting to examine Notre Dame Cathedral for the first time since last week’s devastating fire”…these guys all seemed to be pretty sure on day one…wonder if the more recent story with those bells and the connected unauthorised wiring turns out to be true, or if that was just more bs…well, it would have been an accident then, just one based on criminal negligence…


    The story with regard to the bells - which has been clarified as "electrical engines (which) had been installed to sound the bells in the spire"- has started to appear in the English News Reports. This one is rather poorly translated but details the story. The Washington Post and the New York Times also appear to be running articles about these bells.

    https://www.tellerreport.com/news/--fire-at-notre-dame-de-paris--electrified-bells-at-the-origin-of-the-disaster--.Sya9MaRqE.html

    This was grabbed as a screenshot from a video of the burning spire. One of the electrified bells?

    2zgygk.jpg


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    #956
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    gozunda wrote: »
    The story with regard to the bells - which has been clarified as "electrical engines (which) had been installed to sound the bells in the spire"- has started to appear in the English News Reports. This one is rather poorly translated but details the story. The Washington Post and the New York Times also appear to be running articles about the bells.

    https://www.tellerreport.com/news/--fire-at-notre-dame-de-paris--electrified-bells-at-the-origin-of-the-disaster--.Sya9MaRqE.html

    This was grabbed as a screenshot from a video of the burning spire. One of the electrified bells?

    2zgygk.jpg

    Ok, looks like a bell to me, if that pic is legit...just what was it with them all talking about 'no electricity up there'...guess just another case of failure, lies and ****-up on part of those responsible...


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    #957
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    Wayne Gorsky wrote: »
    Ok, looks like a bell to me, if that pic is legit...just what was it with them all talking about 'no electricity up there'...guess just another case of failure, lies and ****-up on part of those responsible...

    Screenshot captured from here @0:40

    https://youtu.be/Wa3qjDZ8wWE


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    #958
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    A bit more on the time lapse cameras ...
    Footage from the camera, which was placed on the northern belltower and is now in the hands of investigators, shows the first smoke coming out of the spire's base, Marc Eskenazi, a representative for Europe Echafaudage told Reuters.

    "Shots were taken every 10 minutes starting from Monday at 2 p.m.," Eskenazi said. "Smoke can be seen on these images. It starts on the south side" he said.

    https://www.aol.com/article/news/2019/04/18/time-lapse-shots-of-notre-dame-spire-may-yield-clues-on-blaze/23713884/?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmllLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAKKy7Sxy4ob8bZShQ2xZuArJd_Tr_BRKUNkDpFeaZ_KmM_dZd9OyfPBKy6cJvCwa24mDvG2jq5GYAnXMaMeM3vsMysSAPjUqrypc9EXbT8HHXHSjw1WMECOtdjdb5W4z0JomBOJ40q0SX0iB6w0Pnz5RjhQG_VkX8cm2Jj22VDG7

    And for a little bit of light comedy...

    https://www.thedcpi.com/seven-alternative-spires-for-notre-dame-cathedral/

    What they were thinking with the 'fire' one is beyond me tbh ...


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    #959
    CelticRambler
    Registered Users Posts: 6,695 ✭✭✭CelticRambler


    Wayne Gorsky wrote: »
    Ok, looks like a bell to me, if that pic is legit...just what was it with them all talking about 'no electricity up there'...guess just another case of failure, lies and ****-up on part of those responsible...

    I think it's the confusion of two different storylines - as far as the scaffolding/restoration crew were concerned, there was "no electricity" up there, i.e. they had cut the power to all of their equipment/installations, which obviously they would have been very keen to emphasise right from the beginning, to avoid being blamed for something that wasn't their fault.

    There's no "conspiracy theory" around whether or not there were bells present in the spire - there were; what's changed is that investigative reporting by Le Canard Enchainé suggests that the fire may instead have been a problem waiting to happen, due to that age-old French tradition of flouting the rules.

    It reinforces my third suspicion, as stated earlier, that some work done in the area of the spire (installation of scaffolding, or perhaps the removal of those statues?) inadvertently contributed one last condition to a pre-existing tinder-box.


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    #960
    gozunda
    Registered Users Posts: 18,996 ✭✭✭✭gozunda


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    I think it's the confusion of two different storylines - as far as the scaffolding/restoration crew were concerned, there was "no electricity" up there, i.e. they had cut the power to all of their equipment/installations, which obviously they would have been very keen to emphasise right from the beginning, to avoid being blamed for something that wasn't their fault.

    There's no "conspiracy theory" around whether or not there were bells present in the spire - there were; what's changed is that investigative reporting by Le Canard Enchainé suggests that the fire may instead have been a problem waiting to happen, due to that age-old French tradition of flouting the rules.

    It reinforces my third suspicion, as stated earlier, that some work done in the area of the spire (installation of scaffolding, or perhaps the removal of those statues?) inadvertently contributed one last condition to a pre-existing tinder-box.

    No - theres no confusion as far as I can see. There are a number of reports that there was a permanent electricity supply to the spire which powered electrified bells. This addition was made in 2007/2012 and used when the main bells of the cathedral were removed to be recast and appeared to have continued in use during the mass on the day of the fire.

    The separate temporary electrical supply for the building work / restoration has been fairly well detailed.

    As stated all there are at present are 'suspicions'. And none of that makes for anyone detailing a conspiracy theory imo...
    The first elements of the investigation would point to a dangerous installation of electrified bells. The boss of the company (Freres Bras) who mounted the scaffolding around the spire of Notre Dame, assured (the two Newspapers)  that six bells connected by electric cables running in the frames were in the attic from the cathedral.

    Other accounts in the French media also appear to validate the account of these electrified bells.


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    #961
    Wayne Gorsky
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Wayne Gorsky


    CelticRambler wrote: »
    I think it's the confusion of two different storylines - as far as the scaffolding/restoration crew were concerned, there was "no electricity" up there, i.e. they had cut the power to all of their equipment/installations, which obviously they would have been very keen to emphasise right from the beginning, to avoid being blamed for something that wasn't their fault.

    There's no "conspiracy theory" around whether or not there were bells present in the spire - there were; what's changed is that investigative reporting by Le Canard Enchainé suggests that the fire may instead have been a problem waiting to happen, due to that age-old French tradition of flouting the rules.

    It reinforces my third suspicion, as stated earlier, that some work done in the area of the spire (installation of scaffolding, or perhaps the removal of those statues?) inadvertently contributed one last condition to a pre-existing tinder-box.


    Yeah, at the very least confusing info on the whole electricity thing…it was said there was no electricity ever allowed to be installed in the roof area, then it turns out these bells are there so there would have been electricity after all, installed against regulations apparently…so some folks over there were talking bs at some point, be it out of ignorance or to cover up a breach of regulations…of course, the existence of the bells is still no proof for anything, though the existence of wiring where none should have been is interesting…looks like someone should to go to jail anyway, though that’ll probably never happen…as you suggested, that “that age-old French tradition of flouting the rules” could be to blame…


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