Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

moonage · 16-04-2019 12:43am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Which begs the questions, what do you think happened to Jews in Germany during the 30's/40's and why did it happen? do you think they later exaggerated it?

Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany, not by mass extermination but by mass deportation. Even before the war had started most had already left in an orderly fashion, facilitated by the government. The Transfer Agreement of 1933 meant that many ended up in Palestine.

During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You also mentioned earlier that Jews had certain "character traits", what do you mean by that?

See post #54.

WinnyThePoo · 16-04-2019 12:54am

Jesus Christ. Baffling rewriting of history here.

Teddy Daniels · 16-04-2019 1:10am

Murray TheDemonic TalkingSkull wrote: »

I'd say most people have zero problem with Jew's, Jewish culture, traditions etc. They just have a serious problem with that apartheid State we call Israel. You can be anti-israeli government and not be anti-Semitic

Does this work with South Africans ? Genuine question.

Teddy Daniels · 16-04-2019 1:14am

1641 wrote: »

I don't know where you got your figures from. The 6 million Jewish deaths represented about 2/3 of the total Jewish population of Europe. Also the deaths were by organised, pre-meditated industrial scale homicide based on demonic, anti-semetic prejudices and conspiracy theories. Those same prejudices and conspiracy theories are once again manifesting across Europe.

Ten years earlier noone would have believed that those prejudices would have quickly translated into genocide. Their rise again needs to be taken seriously.

The Irish famine was a tragedy marked by gross government mismanagement, negligence and considerable indifference. It has left a long scar on the Irish. But it is not comparable to the Holocaust - and the Irish are not facing a rising tide of vile prejudice across Europe.

There were two.

whisky_galore · 16-04-2019 1:30am

moonage wrote: »

During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

With respect, this is bollocks.

hatrickpatrick · 16-04-2019 1:33am

1641 wrote: »

What exactly are you talking about here? Israel not having a right to exist or the settlements.

I'm talking about the settlements. There is literally nothing that can ever justify their existence.

With regard to Israel's 'right to exist', personally I believe that it does have this right because the people who live there have now done so for multiple generations, and it would be incredibly unfair to those born into the state and alive there today to simply dissolve the state. However, given that the very existence of the state to begin with stems from an act of partition by the British empire following their usual bullsh!t of using violence to take control of territory miles away from their homeland and then royally f*cking life up for the inhabitants, I don't see it as this unquestionable sacred cow that so many do. If someone believes that Israel does not have a 'right to exist' because they do not believe in legitimising the actions of the British Empire in conquering foreign lands, I personally don't agree with them purely because I believe it to be unfair to the descendants of those alive at the time (much like how I genuinely wouldn't be happy to see a United Ireland unless a majority of Northern Ireland's citizens voted in favour of it) - but it's a perfectly valid and legitimate political viewpoint to have. It does not make an individual anti-semitic to question the legitimacy of a state founded entirely on the back of British colonialism.

I certainly agree that Israel whould do more to make peace. But are they ever going to be left in peace? Iran has declared an intention to "wipe them off the face of the map". In 2017 Hamas's Mahmoud al-Zahar said:
“We have liberated Gaza, part of Palestine, but I am not prepared to accept just Gaza,” he said.
“Our position is: Palestine in its entirety, and not a grain of soil less,” added Zahar, a former Hamas foreign minister. “Allah did not define the 1967 borders or the 1948 borders. We will fight them wherever we can — on the ground, underground, and if we have airplanes, we will fight them from the skies.”

It is hard to make peace with that - at least you can understand the suspicion, skepticism and caution.

Of course I do, but again: Nothing justifies driving civilians from their homes by military force. Ever. Israel does not have any moral right to one square centimetre of land outside its internationally recognised border, nor does it have any moral right to literally bulldoze civilian homes in the occupied territories as a reprisal for someone's family member being a terrorist. How anyone could justify this is totally beyond me - especially in a country in which reprisals against civilians caused so much bloodshed and misery when practised by the British Army. It's absolutely inexcusable, and nothing can change that. Even if someone literally detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of Tel Aviv, it still wouldn't justify innocent members of his or her family losing their home because the Israeli government decided to take revenge on them, and not just on the specific individual responsible.

Anyway this is middle eastern politics. Nothing in it justifies current European anti-semitism.

The issue here is the actual definition of anti-semitism. I cannot find any references to anti-semitism in the UK's Labour Party, for instance, which do not make reference to Israel. Any time I've tried researching the actual nature of the alleged anti-semitism within that party, all I get is example of anti-Zionist / anti-Israeli sentiment. Not anti-semitism. That's the problem.

The Highwayman · 16-04-2019 1:46am

I've often wondered about the history of anti semitism and the fact its goes back through history for thousands of years from 800 BC to the modern day

Here's the wiki

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsions_and_exoduses_of_Jews

Jews have been expelled form European countries for up to 500 years. What is the reason? Different people, different cultures, different times in history all reacting the same way.

If you meet an a**hole in the morning, you've met an a**hole. If you meet a**holes all day, then you're the a**hole.

Billy86 · 16-04-2019 2:54am

moonage wrote: »

The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

It says a lot that I'm not remotely surprised to be reading Holocaust denials on After Hours, at this point.

OMM 0000 · 16-04-2019 5:42am

moonage wrote: »

During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

Even if we use your logic, millions of Jews and Poles died in these "labour" camps.

Have you been to Auschwitz-Birkenau? Most of the prisoners were kept in horse stables, and weren't fed properly, so many died from the cold and starvation.

Then of course there was the gassings.

So I can accept perhaps most of the people died from the cold and starvation, but does it really matter?

Dohnjoe · 16-04-2019 7:58am

moonage wrote: »

Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany, not by mass extermination but by mass deportation. Even before the war had started most had already left in an orderly fashion, facilitated by the government. The Transfer Agreement of 1933 meant that many ended up in Palestine.

During the war the concentration camps were either transit camps or labour camps. The idea that there was mass gassing of the Jews doesn't hold up.

You are stating this as fact, but none of the above is true, you do know that right?

Igotadose · 16-04-2019 7:59am

For the rest of us who aren't denier sh1te like the troll posting old, worn out Holocaust denier memes, there are plenty of sites out there that give facts and details, and refute the denier talking points posted here recently. There's no debate about the Holocaust, what the Germans did, how, when and where. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, proud of their achievements.

One good site if you're interested in Holocaust denial: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

Remember that every one of these denier 'arguments' has been destroyed completely. The WUM posting them is just another anti-semite getting his/her jollies winding us up.

Igotadose · 16-04-2019 8:01am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

The issue here is the actual definition of anti-semitism. I cannot find any references to anti-semitism in the UK's Labour Party, for instance, which do not make reference to Israel. Any time I've tried researching the actual nature of the alleged anti-semitism within that party, all I get is example of anti-Zionist / anti-Israeli sentiment. Not anti-semitism. That's the problem.

The issue here, is Europe and the rise of antisemitism there. Personally don't think it's a rise, it's just a continuation of antisemitic tendencies in European character, driven by politics and religion. Nothing to do with settlements - you can complain about settlements and Israeli government policy all you want, that has nothing to do with painting swastikas on headstones in Romania.

mariaalice · 16-04-2019 8:55am

Every society seem to need an outgroup of some sort so it must have a function for society ( does not make it right )

In societies that are more or less homogeneous, it will be gay people basically because of an absence of any other political or religious group to turn on.

Samuel Vimes · 16-04-2019 9:05am

It is possible to criticize the behaviour of the state of Israel , and to condemn Zionism without being anti-Semitic.
Similarly, it is possible to criticize ISIS-Hamas and Hezbollah without being an Islamaphobe.
I have no issue with those of the Jewish faith but I absolutely condemn Israel for its aggressive land grabbing and murderous behaviour.

OMM 0000 · 16-04-2019 9:07am

mariaalice wrote: »

Every society seem to need an outgroup of some sort so it must have a function for society ( does not make it right )

In societies that are more or less homogeneous, it will be gay people basically because of an absence of any other political or religious group to turn on.

This is true.

It also works on a micro level.

When you're in a group of people in work, or on holidays, they need someone to point their aggression at.

One of the things I've learned is play things straight until the scapegoat has been chosen by the group.

Baggly · 16-04-2019 9:28am

Mod

Moonage, get out of this thread and dont come back.

16-04-2019 9:44am

Samuel Vimes wrote: »

It is possible to criticize the behaviour of the state of Israel , and to condemn Zionism without being anti-Semitic.
Similarly, it is possible to criticize ISIS-Hamas and Hezbollah without being an Islamaphobe.
I have no issue with those of the Jewish faith but I absolutely condemn Israel for its aggressive land grabbing and murderous behaviour.

Of course its ok to criticise Israeli policies and actions. I suspect that the term "anti-zionism" is often a code for anti-semitism or a denial of Israel's right to exist. Not all who espouse anti-zionism are anti-semitic but all anti-semites are anti-zionist - it gives them a "respectible" place to hide. Lots of the attacks in Europe have been cloaked in "anti-zionism". They are no different to the attacks that used to happen before Zionism was born.

People rarely criticise the likes of Hamas the way they criticise Israel - even though they (Hamas) make little effort to conceal their desire to deal with the "Jews" in the most bloodthirsty way.That is not to mention their treatment of their own people and their violent repression of any dissent. And their is no justice system to appeal to, no "natural justice", no "human rights.

I think lots of people who criticise Israel are genuinely motivated. But the larger movement is heavily infiltrated with anti-semites who use it as convenient cover.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 9:56am

Igotadose wrote: »

For the rest of us who aren't denier sh1te like the troll posting old, worn out Holocaust denier memes, there are plenty of sites out there that give facts and details, and refute the denier talking points posted here recently. There's no debate about the Holocaust, what the Germans did, how, when and where. The Germans were meticulous record keepers, proud of their achievements.

One good site if you're interested in Holocaust denial: https://www.hdot.org/debunking-denial/

Remember that every one of these denier 'arguments' has been destroyed completely. The WUM posting them is just another anti-semite getting his/her jollies winding us up.

Straight out of the gate I am no Holocaust denier, it is beyond clear that there was a concerted campaign of demonisation and the "removal" by any means necessary towards Jews and other "undesirables" across fascist Europe in that time period and millions were displaced, worked to death and murdered because of it.

However I'm always concerned when it's stated that there's no debate around history and historical events(there are a couple of rebuttals in that link that could be viewed just as debatable as the denials). Doubly so when it's wrapped up in politics of all kinds. Triply so when it's illegal in some jurisdictions to debate it. That's not far off declaring a heresy in religious terms. No history should fear debate. And there are some issues in the details. Take for example official eye witness accounts of gas chambers at Belsen, a horror that was still in play when western allies and their press and researchers showed up, where they recorded no gas chambers or any of that.

WW2 was a strange war in some ways. The propaganda machine never really switched off after it. Few today would be aware of over a million German men died from exposure, starvation and execution in Allied camps after the war. Never mind the "cleansing" of the old regimes across previously fascist Europe. Well it doesn't suit the post war narrative. People want to see the Spitfires flying over the white cliffs of Dover(commemorating a battle the British would have had a hard time losing).

Hard to fathom today, but even the systematic persecution of the Jews, or the wholesale displacement and butchery of the Slavs wasn't discussed in the post war years, because of the new politics of the rise of the Iron Curtain and the requirement for a de Nazied Germany to be a European buffer against it. It wasn't until one Dr Raul Hilberg wrote pretty much the definitive book on the Holocaust as part of his doctoral theses in the late 50's that the historical narrative was collected in one place(a book well worth reading). Even then it was very much resisted. Even the Israeli Holocaust memorial organisation were wary of it and distanced themselves from it. Publisher after publisher turned his book down and it was finally published by a small printing house in a tiny run with private money behind it. And that was in the early 60's. It would be the late 60's early 70's before it got widespread attention and it didn't get printed in German until the 80's.

The politics also shaped the horror in generational minds too. Because Auschwitz lay behind the Iron Curtain(along with other extermination camps) Belsen on the Western side had been the horror for a generation, the others only really gaining in the public mind as the Soviet Union fell. Today most people under say 60 would think of Auschwitz way before Belsen. It also helps that Auschwitz remained more intact so that horror has a focus whereas Belsen was burnt and bulldozed into the ground.

Count Down · 16-04-2019 10:03am

Pter wrote: »

Mod

Moonage, get out of this thread and dont come back.

Why, what's he said?

16-04-2019 10:20am

Wibbs wrote: »

that.

The politics also shaped the horror in generational minds too. Because Auschwitz lay behind the Iron Curtain(along with other extermination camps) Belsen on the Western side had been the horror for a generation, the others only really gaining in the public mind as the Soviet Union fell. Today most people under say 60 would think of Auschwitz way before Belsen. It also helps that Auschwitz remained more intact so that horror has a focus whereas Belsen was burnt and bulldozed into the ground.

Have to disagree with you on this one. I am of the generation you describe and Auschwitz was very much known - more so than Belsen. Perhaps in the immediate post war generation in the West, Belsen was may have been better known by way of word of mouth from war veterans. But Auschwitz became well known through survivor accounts in books. "Five Chimneys" by Olga Lengyel was in wide circulation back them and deeply affected people. That is not to mention the superb (but challenging and disturbing) "If this is a Man" by Primo Levi. As much meditative as descriptive,it is a must read, in my opinion.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 10:44am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

You are stating this as fact, but none of the above is true, you do know that right?

Actually there is some part of it that's true. Namely the 1933 transfer agreement. Fifty odd thousand German Jews left Germany for Palestine because of it. Germany got millions in export profits out of it and it ran right up to the start of the war.

That's where half truths come in of course. The Nazi's were looking for various ways to "remove" Jews from its territories. State organised intimidation made many leave, the transfer agreement made more leave and yes they were in regular talks with Zionist Jews within British Palestine at the time(this is where the whole "Hitler was really a Zionist" stuff comes from. He actually made little comment on it, leaving it as usual to minions).

At that point in the 1930's expulsion was the general "solution", just as marking out Jews with stars in public life had been another "solution". Then expelling Jews from the civil service and management positions in companies another. These "solutions" had a long history within Europe, so the Germans invented nothing there. Indeed our own Daniel O'Connell while fighting for Catholic rights within the UK, also fought for Jewish rights within it too. One of which was repealing the law that Jews had to wear distinctive dress in public to mark them out. That was only repealed in Britain in the mid 19th century.

Where Germany upped the ante was by industrialising the violent pogroms that had been a feature of Europe for a long time, particularly in the East. This was the "Final Solution". And because unlike nigh on every other player in WW2 Germany didn't utilise its women for labour, they needed and had a ready supply of Jews and other "undesirables" for that purpose, not having to pay them a bonus. And when they were no use as labour, they either died from exhaustion, disease or starvation, or were murdered en masse. The gas chambers and other mass murders were only the bloody tip of a very large spear.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 10:50am

1641 wrote: »

Have to disagree with you on this one. I am of the generation you describe and Auschwitz was very much known - more so than Belsen. Perhaps in the immediate post war generation in the West, Belsen was may have been better known by way of word of mouth from war veterans. But Auschwitz became well known through survivor accounts in books. "Five Chimneys" by Olga Lengyel was in wide circulation back them and deeply affected people. That is not to mention the superb (but challenging and disturbing) "If this is a Man" by Primo Levi. As much meditative as descriptive,it is a must read, in my opinion.

Levi's book is a must read alright. The other one came much later to English speaking audiences. The 90's, so well past the influence of earlier more widespread impacts of the Auschwitz story on westerners. If you look at various mass media; books, TV and film(documentaries and drama) it's the mid 70's onwards where Auschwitz becomes the main player in that horrific drama.

Dohnjoe · 16-04-2019 10:53am

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually there is some part of it that's true.

Yup, most spurious revisionism builds itself on some facts/truths, but the overall picture being presented (in this case) was untrue

Baggly · 16-04-2019 10:57am

Mod

Lads, get back on track. The topic at hand is antisemitism TODAY.

Thanks

16-04-2019 11:09am

Wibbs wrote: »

Levi's book is a must read alright. The other one came much later to English speaking audiences. The 90's, so well past the influence of earlier more widespread impacts of the Auschwitz story on westerners. If you look at various mass media; books, TV and film(documentaries and drama) it's the mid 70's onwards where Auschwitz becomes the main player in that horrific drama.

Sorry but I read "Five Chimneys" in a well thumbed English language translation in the very early 70's - I have a very strong memory of the impression it made as it was my first Holocaust book. I know the current edition in print dates from 1995, but there must have been a previous one. My original copy was a borrowed one - no idea of publishers, etc.

Edit: It was originally published in French (ie, the West) in 1946 - but I definitely didn't read the French edition!

Baggly · 16-04-2019 11:15am

Mod

1641 (and anyone else) - last warning, please return to the topic of the thread.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 11:16am

Pter wrote: »

Mod

Lads, get back on track. The topic at hand is antisemitism TODAY.

Thanks

Sorry but it is on topic. The antisemitism of "TODAY" has a long history and the war and post war influence is very much a huge influencer on the current upswing. Note the iconography of swastikas defiling the Jewish graveyard in the very first post on this thread highlighting it.

OMM 0000 · 16-04-2019 11:19am

Is there really an upswing in antisemitism, or is it just being reported more?

Also I see so many hoaxes being exposed of jews, teenagers etc. doing fake hate crimes.

I feel the current culture wants to believe there are nazis everywhere, so every single piece of antisemitism or supposed antisemitism is being reported.

I'm not saying antisemitism doesn't exist.

Dohnjoe · 16-04-2019 11:23am

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Is there really an upswing in antisemitism, or is it just being reported more?

Also I see so many hoaxes being exposed of jews, teenagers etc. doing fake hate crimes.

I feel the current culture wants to believe there are nazis everywhere, so every single piece of antisemitism or supposed antisemitism is being reported.

I'm not saying antisemitism doesn't exist.

Figures and polls are confirming the rise
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/15/antisemitism-rising-sharply-across-europe-latest-figures-show

Antisemitism is rising sharply across Europe, experts have said, as France reported a 74% increase in the number of offences against Jews last year and Germany said the number of violent antisemitic attacks had surged by more than 60%.

Baggly · 16-04-2019 11:25am

Wibbs wrote: »

Sorry but it is on topic. The antisemitism of "TODAY" has a long history and the war and post war influence is very much a huge influencer on the current upswing. Note the iconography of swastikas defiling the Jewish graveyard in the very first post on this thread highlighting it.

Mod

Wibbs, i disagree, and you know on thread isnt the place to argue the point with a mod. Come on now show some respect please. Im not going to entertain further discussion not pertaining to the question in the OP. You can take the card if you dont want to adhere to this.

batgoat · 16-04-2019 11:26am

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Figures and polls are confirming the rise
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/15/antisemitism-rising-sharply-across-europe-latest-figures-show

Also the US experienced its worst antisemitic attack in their history last year. Platforms like "Gab" are filled with it.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 11:26am

1641 wrote: »

Ten years earlier noone would have believed that those prejudices would have quickly translated into genocide. Their rise again needs to be taken seriously.

Yep. It's where it's most likely to rise in an effective way is the question. In say 1910 if we were to pin into a map where state sponsored intimidation, expulsion and mass murder were to kick off in 30 years Germany would have not been top of the list. Many places in Eastern Europe alright. Stuff like vandalisation of graves while both worrying and deeply upsetting for those closest to it is not such a concern. It could be just a handful of loonies that appear "louder" than they are. It's when public figures and bodies hint at wider prejudice that's the real concern. Of late I have stumbled across more antisemitism comments online alright, on Youtube and the like. Some overt, most subtle.

16-04-2019 11:31am

The reports suggest an upswing in overt acts of anti-semitism. Anti-semitism as an attitude/prejudice/ ideology has always been strong. Maybe even more pervasive in the past but people kept it covert - because the memory then of historical events were too strong.

Dohnjoe · 16-04-2019 11:31am

The rise of populism, polarisation, empowerment of extreme fringes and internet breeding grounds for this type of stuff (e.g. 8chan) are all factors

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 11:40am

1641 wrote: »

The reports suggest an upswing in overt acts of anti-semitism. Anti-semitism as an attitude/prejudice/ ideology has always been strong. Maybe even more pervasive in the past but people kept it covert - because the memory then of historical events were too strong.

I'm not so sure the memories of historical events held much sway myself 1641. There was always a sniff of "Hitler didn't do enough" about it from some. The platforms to share and enlarge those kinda thoughts weren't there like we have today. That's a huge part of it. That and the increasing spilt into smaller "forums" and echo chambers on such platforms, often run by a small group of seemingly "informed" ringleaders. Something that has increased quote appreciably in the last decade. The pro/anti sides and factions are more prevalent and more isolated and polarised across many subjects not just this one. We see it in broader politics, issues around sexuality, gender, race, religion etc. The middle is being squeezed out more and more. It's that spilling into the wider world that is a concern and one any number of charismatic ringleaders could utilise and make into a following.

Grayson · 16-04-2019 11:54am

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Is there really an upswing in antisemitism, or is it just being reported more?

Also I see so many hoaxes being exposed of jews, teenagers etc. doing fake hate crimes.

I feel the current culture wants to believe there are nazis everywhere, so every single piece of antisemitism or supposed antisemitism is being reported.

I'm not saying antisemitism doesn't exist.

To be fair, all the reporting metrics show an upswing in the number of crimes.

I do think there might be some truth in the being reported more. Or at least a greater awareness of it. You find a lot of the right wing elements in eastern europe have always been there. In the west, and specifically West Germany, there was a certain amount of discussion about the war, the crimes and anti semitism. That didn't happen in eastern europe. In east Germany in particular there was a lot of bigoted thought. You can see this in the right wing groups that existed there. If you go looking you can find lots of evidence of hate crimes that occured in east germany that the government covered up. There was even horrific cases of lynchings. Post reunification it continued. there was even a refugee apartment building burned down. And now groups like the AfD are strongest in the east.

The same can be said about the rest of eastern europe. In Poland and Hungary there's been plenty of antisemetic language. Orban loves conspiracy theories about Jews. In Poland they are trying to rewrite what happened to jews in the war by passing special laws. In a survey of EU countries Poland ranked highest when asked if people had witnessed anti semitism.

Now I want to make clear, I'm not saying that east germans, hungarians or poles are antisemites. There's plenty of people in those countries who are appalled by it. I'm just saying that I believe there's a higher percentage and I think that's in part because they never had the national conversation about the war. What they were told and what they thought was basically dictated by their authoritarian regimes.

16-04-2019 11:58am

Wibbs wrote: »

I'm not so sure the memories of historical events held much sway myself 1641. There was always a sniff of "Hitler didn't do enough" about it from some. The platforms to share and enlarge those kinda thoughts weren't there like we have today.

I generally agree with you on that - it was just badly expressed on my part. By "memory of historical events" I meant that they didn't want to return to war, disruption and destruction - not so much regret about what happened to the Jews. Also I think the rise again of "pure people" nationalism has helped unleash anti-semitism.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 12:23pm

Grayson wrote: »

I do think there might be some truth in the being reported more. Or at least a greater awareness of it. You find a lot of the right wing elements in eastern europe have always been there. In the west, and specifically West Germany, there was a certain amount of discussion about the war, the crimes and anti semitism. That didn't happen in eastern europe. In east Germany in particular there was a lot of bigoted thought. You can see this in the right wing groups that existed there. If you go looking you can find lots of evidence of hate crimes that occured in east germany that the government covered up. There was even horrific cases of lynchings. Post reunification it continued. there was even a refugee apartment building burned down. And now groups like the AfD are strongest in the east.

That's certainly got a lot to do with it G. Though even in West Germany there was always the background feeling among some of subsequent generations having to wear the sackcloth and ashes sins of their fathers. Harry Enfield's Jurgen the German was at times very well observed for laughs take on that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doPR-6X9h7c

Can't see that being shown on the Beeb these days. Not out of any "PC" restrictions, more about when things are going OK and things like antisemitism are low down on the current problem list you can joke about stuff like that.

Plus central and eastern Europe had a long history of anti Jewish feelings. In some places pogroms were a national sport. To the degree that early on in the war(or just before it) the German nazis were wary of how much international opinions on goings on in those areas might affect them. The levels of quite open antisemitism in Austria in particular actually shocked them after they marched in.

markodaly · 16-04-2019 12:25pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Israel is constantly breaking international law and stealing land.

The fact that people equate Jewishness or Jews in general to Israel is a form of anti-Semitism.

There is no evidence that Jews are part of some hive mind.

OMM 0000 · 16-04-2019 12:28pm

Dohnjoe wrote: »

Figures and polls are confirming the rise
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2019/feb/15/antisemitism-rising-sharply-across-europe-latest-figures-show

In fairness, The Guardian has a far left ideology, so it's in their interest to say the problem is growing. For example, they continue to peddle the lie that the FBI consider the Proud Boys a hate group, even though the FBI have stated they have never considered the Proud Boys a hate group.

Here's a counter argument: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2019/04/07/finley-americas-hate-crime-surge-hoax/3374192002/[/url]

In a nutshell, the way these crimes are being reported has changed.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you, and I won't be replying to any further responses. We're probably both right - the truth is in the middle somewhere.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 12:34pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

the truth is in the middle somewhere.

as usual.

Grayson · 16-04-2019 12:39pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

In fairness, The Guardian has a far left ideology, so it's in their interest to say the problem is growing. For example, they continue to peddle the lie that the FBI consider the Proud Boys a hate group, even though the FBI have stated they have never considered the Proud Boys a hate group.

Here's a counter argument: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/opinion/columnists/nolan-finley/2019/04/07/finley-americas-hate-crime-surge-hoax/3374192002/[/url]

In a nutshell, the way these crimes are being reported has changed.

Anyway, I'm not trying to argue with you, and I won't be replying to any further responses. We're probably both right - the truth is in the middle somewhere.

The guardian are just reporting the figures though. It's not like they're making stuff up.

16-04-2019 12:43pm

OMM 0000 wrote: »

In fairness, The Guardian has a far left ideology, so it's in their interest to say the problem is growing. For example, they continue to peddle the lie that the FBI consider the Proud Boys a hate group, even though the FBI have stated they have never considered the Proud Boys a hate group.

Would the National Catholic Reporter be more creditable than the Guardian?

https://www.ncronline.org/news/world/anti-semitism-rise-france

Danzy · 16-04-2019 2:06pm

The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.

RWCNT · 16-04-2019 2:11pm

Danzy wrote: »

The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.

Citation?

PinotNero · 16-04-2019 2:13pm

Danzy wrote: »

The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.

You have evidence to support this?

Baggly · 16-04-2019 2:13pm

Danzy wrote: »

The 2 main sources of antisemitism in modern Europe are from the Islamic Community and the Left.

Mod

Substantiate this or dont come back into this thread.

super_furry · 16-04-2019 2:14pm

markodaly wrote: »

The fact that people equate Jewishness or Jews in general to Israel is a form of anti-Semitism.

There is no evidence that Jews are part of some hive mind.

Absolutely not, but there is a significant part of the international pro-Israeli lobby that leaps to conflate criticism of Israeli policy with anti-Semitism.

Wibbs · 16-04-2019 2:23pm

PinotNero wrote: »

You have evidence to support this?

Antisemitism is the bastard child of many mothers, right, left whatever you're having yourself, but it has long be recognised as an issue within Muslim communities in Europe. Here's the wikipedia entry on the matter, with sub pages expanding on it more.. Mein Kampf is a popular enough book still in print in the Middle East. Hit the best seller lists in both Egypt and Turkey. On the left isn't the British Labour Party under fire at the moment after being accused of it?

PinotNero · 16-04-2019 2:41pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Antisemitism is the bastard child of many mothers, right, left whatever you're having yourself, but it has long be recognised as an issue within Muslim communities in Europe. Here's the wikipedia entry on the matter, with sub pages expanding on it more.. Mein Kampf is a popular enough book still in print in the Middle East. Hit the best seller lists in both Egypt and Turkey. On the left isn't the British Labour Party under fire at the moment after being accused of it?

I'm not denying any of that but saying only Muslims and the "Left" are the causes of modern anti-semitism is nonsense.
Much of the anti-semitism in Eastern Europe is down to right wing ultra nationalist groups.
In Western Europe there are many Neo-Nazi and fascist groups which are deeply hostile to Jews and Judaism.

Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

Comments