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N8/N25/N40 - Dunkettle Interchange [open to traffic]

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    Are you sure about that? I've never seen that done in Ireland. Indeed the Statutory Instruments defining the routes of the national and regional roads have many instances of routes being interrupted as they join another route, then resuming as they diverge from it again. So I've always taken the view that multiplexing of this sort is never done in Ireland.
    Ive mainly seen this in US and in some asian countries. I do not know the what the law in Ireland is.

    It may will be that google have it wrong on the map. Looked at the OS ma, no help



    I've seen bracket indicating that one road leads to another.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭number10a


    Speaking of the South Ring, has anyone noticed the new signage for it on the Airport Hill from the Airport Roundabout down as far as the traffic lights at the Bull McCabes? All the signs now refer to the South Ring as the Cork Ring :confused::confused: Yet as soon as you get past the traffic lights, you're looking at signs for South Ring. Certainly not an issue for locals, but the inconsistency could be confusing for tourists who are coming down from the airport.

    Apart from that, it's a ridiculous name for it. I mean nobody is going to find a sign for the South Ring ambiguous and want clarification as to what city it's in. Are such things usually designed by a pen-pusher in Dublin, or would they be done here at local level?

    On a seperate issue: Whoever they got to make the signs obviously has no grasp of Irish (or how to use Google/Wikipedia) because they got the Irish for Cork Airport wrong too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    i think there is ample room to improve the junction and thus make it free flow, particulary as the local access to little island is to be removed although im surprised at that, they will probably have to find a way to provide a link there as otherwise all little island traffic would clog up the exit at the train station.

    i cant seem to get any picture up, i done a wee drawing over goggle earth
    image of possible future interchange , keeping the existing bridge and using the loop on the south east side..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    NRA ‘stifling growth’ in city

    By Sean O’Riordan
    Friday, September 17, 2010

    THE Construction Industry Federation (CIF) is seeking a meeting with senior National Roads Authority officials amid claims it is stifling growth in Cork.

    The claim was made last week by developer Michael O’Flynn after Bord Pleanála turned down permission for his €400 million, 1,200-house development at Dunkettle.

    The NRA objected to his development on the grounds it would generate enough traffic to seriously affect already gridlocked local roads and the major interchanges at the Jack Lynch Tunnel and Dunkettle roundabout.

    It was the second time Bord Pleanála had refused planning permission for the Dunkettle development and the second time the NRA had objected to the project.

    CIF director for the southern region, Joe O’Brien, said he was very disappointed. He said he was concerned that job creation in the construction sector was being stymied because major projects were being held up because roads in the area need upgrading.

    The NRA also successfully objected to plans by Iarnród Éireann to build a park and ride railway station at North Esk, near Dunkettle.

    The NRA were also asked to comment on a Port of Cork plan to build a container terminal in Ringaskiddy. Board Pleanála also refused permission for that project. The NRA said the extra traffic resulting from the move would create further pressure on the tunnel.


    This story appeared in the printed version of the Irish Examiner Friday, September 17, 2010

    Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/nra-stifling-growth-in-city-131063.html#ixzz10Yq46hpc

    While I think the NRA is right to protect infrstructure from inappropriate developments, a trend has emerged which indicates that until Dunkettle is made free-flow, practically nothing can go ahead south of the Lee. This is a totally unsustainable position which will inhibit Cork's development as a serious economic hub for the south of the country. In the other on-going thread I placed Dunkettle below the North Ring in terms of importance; but actually, it seems that Dunkettle is more important after all.

    NRA objections to the proposal were summarised as follows in the planning inspector's report:
    The submission by the NRA, which is accompanied by a report by Faber Maunsell,
    can be summarised as follows:

    5.5.1 Impact on National Road Infrastructure and Strategic National Traffic

    • The N28, N25 and in particular the N8/N25 interchange are part of the Atlantic corridor which has been identified for development under Transport 21 and will carry much of the long distance traffic between Waterford, Cork, Limerick and onto the northern gateways.
    • Development generated traffic must be controlled so as not to unduly interfere with the strategic movement of goods and people to/from the Cork region along these national roads.
    • The impact of local development traffic is significant.
    • Currently the AADT using the interchange is 100,000 vehicles. National and local traffic converge on this junction resulting in severe congestion at peak times. The interchange is currently over capacity at peak times.
    • Increased traffic trip generation is set to continue. Land use and employment strategies have encouraged orbital car based movements along the N25 Cork southern ring road. Car based volumes will continue as the CASP objective of strengthening Carrigtohill and Middleton comes to fruition.
    • The intensification of traffic weaving at the interchange as a result of traffic volumes from the IBIS slip is undesirable and will lead to significant safety concerns.

    5.5.2 Prematurity Pending Provision of Required Improvements

    • The NRA has undertaken preliminary work in relation to required improvements but substantial work remains to be done to devise a preferred
    solution. Thus, the development continues to be premature pending the determination of a future transportation infrastructure and road layout including proposals for Dunkettle interchange.
    • The road improvements included in the Council’s decision could potentially form part of the upgrade determined for the national roads in the area and in particular the Dunkettle interchange.
    • The permission measures do not constitute a comprehensive response to ensure that the function of the interchange in catering primarily for strategic interurban and interregional traffic is maintained.

    Source (p. 22)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    What can the NRA do eh? dependent on the whims of their political masters for any funding, the Dunkettle upgrade will still be a long way down the list of road funding priorities despite it's AADTs and strategic importance. Gotta build all those 'corridors' to nowhere first.

    Can't see much changing even if LAB/FG take power and manage to find some money from somewhere for new builds. I wager there'll be Motorways to Castlebar, Carrick-on-Shannon & Clones before Dunkettle gets looked at.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    In fairness, the developers are trying to build a "donut city", which isn't acceptable. Plenty of unused land in the city centre, while Cork County Council are building away.

    The county council object to the city council trying to expand the city boundary ont he argument that there is still development land in the city. If there is development land, why are they allowing development all over the place in the county?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The NRA expects the EIS for the Dunkettle Interchange improvements to be published in Q1 2012.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,091 ✭✭✭marmurr1916


    Victor wrote: »
    In fairness, the developers are trying to build a "donut city", which isn't acceptable. Plenty of unused land in the city centre, while Cork County Council are building away.

    Why aren't developers looking to build in the docklands? Is it because of the proposed new bridge not being built?
    Victor wrote: »
    The county council object to the city council trying to expand the city boundary ont he argument that there is still development land in the city. If there is development land, why are they allowing development all over the place in the county?

    Cork City Council's boundary should be extended by about 16km in all directions and there should be one planning authority for city and county, with a remit to ensure that major developments are concentrated in the city, with office developments as close to the centre as possible, and the larger county towns.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The NRA have partly updated the Road Scheme Activity section of their site. This has appeared:
    Local Authority: Cork County Council
    Start County: Cork
    End County: Cork
    Description: This scheme involves the upgrading of the Dunkettle Interchange between the N8 and N25 national routes on the outskirts of Cork City. The current interchange arrangement has free flow for the traffic going in an east - west direction but forces north - south traffic and turning traffic to use a traffic signal controlled roundabout. It is proposed to upgrade the interchange to fully free flow in all directions and to include measures to remove locally generated traffic from the interchange.
    Mainline Length (km): 1km
    Current Project Phase: Route Selection


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Aidan1 wrote: »
    Well, even for a start, building them does, along with a lot of traffic movements. More pertinently, it would be highly unlikely that anyone would actually build office space at the moment, but would wait until things picked up, PP in hand. Clearly, developers would dearly love to build along the N25/SRR, and the NRA want to protect their (our) investment.

    This is critical an issue for the City/County Councils. They have to decide if they want to build City West style developments along the SRR, and choke that up, or to zone and plan properly, ideally putting office developments in cities themselves.

    I don't really know Cork that well but I can make the point that there is a lot of unnecessary traffic in Galway and Dublin because of sprawling low rise office developments on the outskirts of both cities. Everyone is forced to drive to/from work because public transport links to these business parks/industrial estates are so poor and difficult to improve. Ideally, most office developments would be in a central location in medium or high(ish) rise buildings close to train/bus stations. Manufacturing should obviously be on the outskirts close to the motorway network so goods can be moved around quickly.

    There is still hesitation as to whether high rise buildings in certain locations in Central Dublin should be allowed; I think this is insane! Land in the City Centre isn't exactly cheap so it wouldn't be worth anyone's while to buy a site there with the intention of building new offices as they would only be allowed to build low rise. They will more than likely choose to locate on the outskirts where land is cheaper and build a low rise there (unfortunately generating more traffic). If high rise was allowed then it would be more worth their while to build in the City Centre near good public transport links.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    What can the NRA do eh? dependent on the whims of their political masters for any funding, the Dunkettle upgrade will still be a long way down the list of road funding priorities despite it's AADTs and strategic importance. Gotta build all those 'corridors' to nowhere first.
    In fairness the main reason Dunkettle is a long way from starting is because it was a latecomer to the planning process. I remember it only appeared on the NRA's site about 2 years ago. Long time more before it'd be ready for construction - and it's a highly complicated scheme:

    - Grade-separate long distance traffic
    - Must be fully freeflow in all directions
    - Local traffic must be rerouted
    - Entrance to a tunnel to the immediate south, with a steep descent
    - Rail line running through the area
    - Attempts being made to add a P&R to the junction, which would need to be accessible from both the M8 and the N25 - very hard to achieve whilst maintaining full grade separation.

    The scheme must of necessity be very complex and expensive. Let's make sure we get it right.


    It's interesting because there is an identical situation in the north up in Belfast. They spent ages upgrading their Westlink and widening the M2, but only after this was finished did they start planning for an upgrade of the Westlink/M2/M3 huge interchange right in the middle of town. Now Wesley Johnston is saying it'll be 2020 before they get working on it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Add to that Dunkettle house and gardens which are protected and are sitting right on top of it. Also parts of the Lee nearby are SACs.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,337 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Are there any quick-build public transportation options on the table to relieve some of the pressure on Mahon/Douglas/Blackrock, like turning the Passage West Railway line into a BRT? Doesn't help that they (IIRC) put a sewer under it of course.

    If there was ever a classic case of more road creating more demand, the SRR seems to be it, except it's supposed to be private motorists to blame not the bloody city council!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    It is proposed to upgrade the interchange to fully free flow in all directions and to include measures to remove locally generated traffic from the interchange.
    Despite the fact there is pretty much no way we'll be seeing this happen in the next few years, it's good to know at least that the NRA are working on a full solution for the interchange and recognise that slapping on a few free-flow slips simply won't be enough.

    I have NO idea how they're going to introduce the (necessary) third level of grade seperation though. The task facing the engineers is uneviable to say the least. I have a feeling it could see the entire interchange demolished and started from scratch.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    I've been informed that Jacobs were awarded the contract for the Dunkettle EIS over a month ago. Presently they are being briefed on all previously considered upgrade options. A public consultation document will issue in 2011.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    I noticed this morning that they have repainted the road marking on the approach and exit of the tunnel northbound.

    The left lane reads N8 Dublin / Cork then the lane separates into N8 Cork & N8 Dublin. This is written about four times before you reach the traffic lights at Dunkettle.

    :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 577 ✭✭✭Typewriter


    They are resurfacing the N25 between the Dunkettle interchange and Little island (probably further on but I don't know as I get off at the Little island exit)

    They have removed the 120km/h speed limit signs and replaced them with 60km/h ones. That seems a bit odd to me. Why can’t they just put up the temporary orange speed signs and cover the existing ones.

    I hope that when the road is repainted it will retain its motorway markings (continuous yellow line) like they did on the newly resurfaced part of the Carrigtwohill to Midleton stretch. I know it’s not motorway but hopefully it will be declared one at some point.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    That resurfacing urgently was needed. The bit between the merging slip and the running lanes was cracking, and some of the pits it produced were about 20cm deep.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    Can't find a Dunkettle thread, so I'll put this in here.

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/100m-plan-to-end-cork-traffic-nightmare-500164.html

    Long story short, the NRA have published the plans for the Dunkettle upgrade. Loads of people think it's a great idea. But there's no money.

    €100m plan to end Cork traffic nightmare
    A 100m transformation of the busiest road junction in Cork will breathe new life into the region and create much-needed jobs, industry leaders said today.

    The traffic-choked Dunkettle Interchange used by 95,000 motorists daily will become a completely free-flow junction, with looping flyovers and slip roads, under plans unveiled by the National Roads Authority (NRA) yesterday.

    The multi-million euro scheme has been compared to the complete revamp of the traffic bottleneck at the Red Cow in Dublin, where a congested roundabout was replaced with slip roads and flyovers to ensure traffic flowed freely.

    Consultants working on behalf of the NRA revealed five different options for Dunkettle yesterday.

    The final project to be chosen by September could include up to 10 bridges, with looping flyovers, new access routes to Little Island and Glounthane and a completely new roundabout adjacent to the existing Dunkettle Interchange. Construction of the project will begin in 2014 if funding is secured.

    This would follow the completion of the flyovers at the Bandon and Sarsfield Road roundabouts.

    The Construction Industry Federation (CIF) has warmly welcomed the plans, saying it will create hundreds of much-needed jobs in the beleaguered construction sector.

    CIF director Joe O’Brien said: “It is vital that the Dunkettle Interchange is upgraded. We’re very anxious to ensure that funding is forthcoming for this project.

    “Apart from the flyovers at the Bandon and Sarsfield Road roundabouts, the NRA has no other major infrastructure planned for the Cork region.

    “The jobs that this project would create are badly needed.”

    Port of Cork chief executive Brendan Dempsey said a free flow Dunkettle Interchange would be welcomed by all businesses in the city and county.

    “Anything that will ease congestion at that interchange is to be warmly welcomed by all,” he said.
    The upgraded Dunkettle could also aid the Port of Cork’s plan to move its operations to Ringaskiddy.

    The Port will apply for planning permission later this year or early 2012 for a scaled down investment on a new lower harbour container facility in Ringaskiddy.

    The Port’s previous application to create the container terminal at Oyster Bank in Ringaskiddy was refused by An Bord Pleanála, which cited a lack of a rail connection and proper road infrastructure.

    Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/100m-plan-to-end-cork-traffic-nightmare-500164.html#ixzz1Ikw5kK8x


  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭FatSh!te


    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/100m-plan-to-end-cork-traffic-nightmare-500164.html

    http://www.corkrdo.ie/n25_dunkettle_interchange_brochure.php

    Public consultation document out now, but I can't find any drawings of the 5 options jacobs have come up with....


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  • Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭FatSh!te


    Another, better detailed article.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/five-options-revealed-for-overhaul-of-interchange-
    150528.html

    THE busiest road junction outside of Dublin is gridlocked, stifling economic development and urgently requires a major overhaul, which could cost up to €100 million.

    The National Roads Authority (NRA) has unveiled five options for the redevelopment of the interchange at the Jack Lynch Tunnel/Dunkettle roundabout, which copes with approximately 95,000 vehicles a day.

    At peak times motorists are snarled in serious gridlock and the NRA is aware that something needs to be done to allow for the development of the Cork region and that speedy access to and from it is a key component for economic recovery.

    The junction is the main artery feeding Cork’s business heartland. The tunnel connects the northern and southern sides of the city and also links with the main Cork-Dublin road (N8) and the Cork-Waterford road (N25).

    In the future it will also have to provide a link to the Atlantic Corridor, connecting Cork with Sligo.

    It is envisaged that another junction will be built at the northern end of the Glanmire bypass, with a connection across the northside of the city to the Cork-Limerick road, feeding into the Atlantic corridor.

    The need for a major crossing of the River Lee was identified as far back as the late 1970s as congestion mounted in Cork city centre.

    It was never envisaged when the four-lane, two bore 1.85km-long tunnel opened on May 31, 1999 that it would carry as many vehicles as it does today.

    Initial predictions stated that the tunnel would cope with up to 30,000 vehicles each weekday.

    Today the tunnel alone carries 60,000 vehicles each day, all of which have to negotiate the signalised roundabout on the northern side of the tunnel, slowing down journey times.

    The same roundabout also has to cope with traffic coming out of the city centre along the Tivoli dual carriageway which is heading north to Dublin.

    At peak times in the morning traffic can tailback more than two kilometres on the northern side of the tunnel and on occasions nearly as far as the Little Island interchange on the eastern side.

    In the evenings in particular, commuters on their way home often join queues on the South Ring Road adjacent to the Rochestown Park Hotel.

    The NRA wants to divert as much unnecessary traffic away from the signalised roundabout on the northern side of the tunnel as it can, so as to speed up access through the tunnel itself.

    For example, traffic heading for Dublin has to do so by accessing the roundabout just metres from the mouth of the tunnel.

    A new dedicated slip road is planned on the western side of the tunnel which would take traffic directly up the Dublin road, instead of it having to first pass through the roundabout.

    By creating further dedicated slip lanes and elevated loops, a lot of traffic will be removed from the roundabout and getting rid of the lights will enhance "freeflow".

    The NRA’s consultants, Dublin-based Jacobs Engineering, are working on computer-generated traffic flow models for each of the five options to see which one works best.

    NRA spokesman Sean O’Neill said the junction represented "a critical piece of infrastructure" not just for Cork but for the whole south-west region.

    "It is equivalent in importance to the M50 corridor, which is now flowing freely because traffic lights have been removed," Mr O’Neill said.

    The options under consideration would cope with traffic increases in the area for the next 30 years. The construction of flyovers, loops etc would have a minimum lifespan of 120 years.

    "The junction is the economic backbone of the Cork region. 90% of freight traffic is carried by HGVs so the upgrading of the junction is important to the economic wellbeing of the region," Mr O’Neill said.

    The NRA has jealously guarded land around the interchange for years, primarily to ensure it has enough space to expand the road network, or as Mr O’Neill puts it "to protect the taxpayers’ investment".

    The roads authority was previously successful with Bord Pleanála in objecting to a number of development plans in the Cork region, primarily because of the inability of the interchange to cope with ever increasing traffic flow.

    It first won a battle with a developer who planned to build 1,200 houses on the grounds of Dunkettle House, which overlooks the tunnel’s northern approaches.

    The NRA said the development, proposed by O’Flynn Construction, would "add to further pressure on the interchange" and would be "premature" until it had upgraded the major road network.

    It also made a successful objection against plans by Iarnród Éireann and Cork County Council to use a greenfield site close to the former Ibis Hotel to create a park and ride commuter railway station.

    The NRA claimed it might require the land earmarked for the station for part of its interchange upgrade.

    The Port of Cork’s plans for a new €120 million cargo terminal at Ringaskiddy were also scuppered because Bord Pleanála decided, in part, that congestion at Jack Lynch Tunnel was so critical that more juggernauts passing through it as a result of that project would grind the underwater crossing to a complete halt.

    The Port authority believes that the deep water quay at Ringaskiddy is the most viable option for its container terminal, although it is looking at the jetty at the former IFI plant at Marino Point, Cobh.

    Mr O’Neill said the NRA wanted to ensure an integrated transport system in the area, and that didn’t mean the park and ride station was off the agenda.

    He stressed that discussions were ongoing between the NRA and Iarnród Éireann to develop a station in the locality.

    If opened it would undoubtedly be the busiest station on the Cork-Midleton commuter line as many people from north and east Cork would be likely to opt to leave their car at the park and ride, thus avoiding lengthy queues along the Tivoli dual carriageway at peak times as well as expensive parking charges in the city.

    "Without question we want to work on integrating all transport. Once our discussions conclude we will see a proper place (for the railway station) identified," Mr O’Neill said.

    Iarnród Éireann owns an extensive freight yard at North Esk, part of which could eventually be chosen as the site for the new station. In all of the NRA options there are proposals to create a dedicated slip road off the M8 heading southbound from the Caherlag area directly down towards North Esk, which would accommodate traffic heading to the park and ride.

    Mr O’Neill declined to comment on whether the junction upgrading would allow for the development of the Port of Cork’s proposed cargo terminal in Ringaskiddy, or the O’Flynn Construction €400 million project at Dunkettle.

    He said he was not aware at this stage if the Government would introduce toll charges in the area to pay for the project.

    "I’m not aware of any tolling right now. That would be a Government policy decision," Mr O’Neill added.

    The question remains in this pot-hole riddled economy, if the Government will release any cash for such an ambitious project, or will motorists foot the bill at toll booths?

    Anone have links to the actual options Jacobs are considering?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The drawings are included in this brochure (attached).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    FatSh!te wrote: »
    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/five-options-revealed-for-overhaul-of-interchange-150528.html

    another, better detailed article.

    Anone have links to the actual options Jacobs are considering?

    That article is playing down the situation. It says that
    In the evenings in particular, commuters on their way home often join queues on the South Ring Road adjacent to the Rochestown Park Hotel.

    I have seen it back as far as the kinsale road roundabout. Most friday evenings it will be back to the first douglas slip road.

    Tolling it would be the worst idea ever. It will just drive more traffic into town. There are already enough tolls going to Dublin for feck sake we dont need a third one (4th one if you pass through the M50)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Orange or red please, they can't seriously think that adding more RABs on the N25 wouldn't cause hassle...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Dedicated scheme website here: http://www.n8n25dunkettle.ie/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    The Options:

    redoption.jpg

    purpleoption.jpg

    orangeoption.jpg

    brownoption.jpg

    blueoption.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Is it me or is the blue one overly complicated?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Son of Stupido


    Bit of penis envy going on here......

    "If Dublin can have some crazy junctions, why can't we????"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Son of Stupido


    Ok, on a more serious note....

    the red option makes most sence as it allows M8 traffic to flow straight in to the tunnel.

    The purple option does not allow this, but has straight flowing traffic to the N25 waterford road. this makes sence if this is the main direction of traffic.

    The other options are just fillers to show they looked at all options.


    Please please please don't have those crazy tight loops like they have on the M50!!!:(:(:(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Bit of penis envy going on here......

    "If Dublin can have some crazy junctions, why can't we????"

    It seems you have the attitude that every piece of infrastructure should be in Dublin and the rest of the country should have horse and carts. This junction carries as much traffic as the red cow on some days.

    You literally have not got one clue as to what happens outside of your county.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 708 ✭✭✭cork_south


    Bit of penis envy going on here......

    "If Dublin can have some crazy junctions, why can't we????"


    Having to travel through this joke of infrastructure twice daily on my commute to and from work, can I personally say to you, that you sir are an idiot.

    WARNED ~ MOD


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 454 ✭✭irishdub14


    Why can't they design a normal looking 4/5 level stack or a clover leaf?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    irishdub14 wrote: »
    Why can't they design a normal looking 4/5 level stack or a clover leaf?

    Heights and Little Island's access. Remember we're dealing with a tunnel portal below ground level at one end.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5 The Armchair Expert



    the red option makes most sence as it allows M8 traffic to flow straight in to the tunnel.

    Southbound only? Am I missing something or is there no corresponding route northbound?

    (other than turning at the roundabout to the west of the main junction)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭Son of Stupido


    There is a north-bound free flow in the purple option.

    As i recall, the land for the junction was reclaimed from the estuary, so there should be enough room for the design of proper loop/slips where a decent speed can be done.

    Ideally all directions should be freeflow IMO, a simple clover leaf rather than overcomplicating the junction. The levels issue shouldn't be too hard to sort out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Just a quick question.

    All of the options involve no traffic lights and no stopping, but some do involve some twisty bits, even when you are continuining in a East - West or North - South direction ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    Just a quick question.

    All of the options involve no traffic lights and no stopping, but some do involve some twisty bits, even when you are continuining in a East - West or North - South direction ?

    Yes...and?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Yes...and?

    And nothing.

    It was just a bloody question. The pictures on page 2 weren't working when I looked last time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Red all the way, though I still think my arrangement was better.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,544 ✭✭✭Hogzy


    And nothing.

    It was just a bloody question. The pictures on page 2 weren't working when I looked last time.

    Whats the question though?
    Yes they have twisty bits :confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    Hogzy wrote: »
    Whats the question though?
    Yes they have twisty bits :confused:

    Well, the mainline routes could both continue dead straight and with two lanes continuous.

    The north - south route could be reduce down to one lane each way and could be forced to take non-straight paths in order to make the junction work.

    There are quite a lot of variables and again, the images of the junction options were not working when I came here earlier.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    The details of the CPO for this project were in the Examiner last Friday. At least something is happening on it anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,538 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Sure it wasn't the CPO for the improvement works at the other roundabout (the one in towards the city on the Tivoli DC)? This isn't advanced enough for a CPO.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,329 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    MYOB wrote: »
    Sure it wasn't the CPO for the improvement works at the other roundabout (the one in towards the city on the Tivoli DC)? This isn't advanced enough for a CPO.

    Actually it was neither :o. It's for a feeder road into the M8/N25 junction - the back road to Glanmire from the Ibis to the AIB in Glanmire. Looks like that road is being beefed up for future developments.


  • Registered Users Posts: 521 ✭✭✭CarMuppet


    The red or orange option seems pretty good imo.

    but more worryingly I smell a toll here... (and yes I said toll not troll)..


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,660 ✭✭✭Blitzkrieger


    I posted about this over in the Cork forum already - didn't realise this was here :o

    Acknowledging that asking for public opinion on the different proposals is a bit
    ridiculous without details on current traffic volumes and predicted volumes,
    construction costs and land available, I think they're all a bit over complicated. I
    put my own proposal on the Cork forum, but looking at the posts here, I've re-done it
    below.

    164676.JPG

    In phase 1, I'd start with a ramp to join the road from Cork (Dunkettle roundabout) to
    the Dublin road without passing through the tunnel interchange. I've drawn this as two


    lanes that pretty much follow the path of the old road (pre-East Cork Parkway) there,
    but I'm not sure it needs to be two lanes.

    South west of the interchange I've extended the ramp from the tunnel interchange as far


    as possible before hitting the railway bridge. I originally thought it wouldn't be
    possible to build there, but several of the official proposals reclaim land there.
    This is to make room for a new ramp later.

    North east of the interchange I've drawn a new ramp to link the Dublin Road southbound
    with the N25 eastbound, starting just after the bridge. This includes a new off ramp

    to Glanmire East, though the new ramp will pass over the existing Glanmire East off

    ramp.

    South east of the interchange is where most of the work would need to be done. I
    really can't see an easy way to get traffic from the Dublin Road to Cork city through
    the interchange. My solution proposes a two lane ramp that starts south of the
    interchange at the Little Island turn off, goes up over the existing road and all the
    way out towards the PJ O'Hea Opel dealership to join up with the N25 there. I think it


    has to go that far out to merge safely with the traffic.

    Traffic in and out of Little Island at this point would have to be restricted or even
    stopped during works. Afterwards traffic from Little Island to cork would have to use
    a ramp up onto this new road to get to Cork city, while traffic to Little Island would
    need a ramp down from it.


    164678.JPG
    In phase 2, the existing exit from the tunnel interchange towards the city is closed to

    allow works to begin on a new ramp. This two lane ramp is to bring traffic from the

    N25 onto the Dublin Road north. Again I'm not sure if it needs to be two lanes. This

    ramp would be tricky enough to put in. It's in several of the official proposals so I

    presume the experts think it would be possible to safely merge traffic heading north,

    before traffic heading west needs to exit.

    A new flyover is also built in this phase to take traffic from the tunnel to the east,

    to merge with the new ramp off the Dublin Road and subsequently the N25. At this point

    traffic from the tunnel will be able to access Glanmire East again. I wouldn't have

    thought there'd be room for a flyover here, but again it features in some of the

    official proposals so I guess there is. There's also a ramp to bring traffic from the

    tunnel back down to access Little Island East, but it's not needed at this stage of the

    project.

    The new flyover is two lanes, but I'd imagine the entrance during construction works

    would be only one lane, with the left hand of the 3 lanes on the ramp down to the

    interchange being closed to make room.

    Traffic from Little Island East to the city would have to join with the N25 via the new

    ramp.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,660 ✭✭✭Blitzkrieger


    164679.JPG
    In phase 3, we block off the south section of the roundabout of the existing

    interchange, and also the existing ramp to the N25. This allows work to begin on a new

    ramp to bring traffic from the City heading east down into the tunnel southbound. This

    starts just before the existing Glanmire East off ramp, which is now accessed from the

    N25, meaning traffic from the city to Glanmire East no longer has to go through the

    interchange.


    164680.JPG

    Phase 4 is mainly tidying up. We close off the existing ramp from the city to the

    interchange which is no longer needed, and close off the north side of the interchange

    roundabout. The remainder of the interchange roundabout, and it's entrances and exits

    can now be 'smoothed out' to aid traffic flow.


    164681.JPG

    Several of the official proposals also mention works at the Dunkettle roundabout.

    Personally, I don't think it's as important, and should be done (properly) at later

    stage when funding is available. I think you could simply extend the dual carriageways

    through the roundabout, moving the westbound one in towards the centre to make room for

    traffic to merge from a flyover starting at the exit from Glanmire. A second flyover

    would take traffic from the westbound N25 to Glanmire.

    They might have to push the junction further back than what I've got in the drawing to

    make room for two flyovers, but I think there's space. They wouldn't need to be big

    sweeping flyovers like we have at Douglas/Rochestown. I'd be thinking more like the

    new overpass on the Lower Glanmire Road.




    Some of the proposals mention upgrades to the Little Island interchange too. TBH, I'm

    not as aware of what the problems are there, but I think that should also be a separate

    issue and be dealt with separately.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    You've hard a productive day :D Cheers for the drawings and explanations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    You have to be careful - where I've put the yellow circle, you have traffic joining the main flow immediately before traffic is leaving.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,660 ✭✭✭Blitzkrieger


    It's a good point. I never thought there would be room there so I left it out of my original drawings on the Cork forum, but I was planning something similar to the brown option. Now that I look at it, it might be better to reverse them. Take the blue lanes off closer to the tunnel, have the red lanes cross above them a second time and merge with the N8 northbound more or less under the existing bridges.


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