Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

Macy0161 · 15-01-2021 9:59am

I'd say they were somewhat unlucky in that they were caught in the first period of the extra enforcement policy, where the gardaí are setting the precedent, particularly ahead of the weekend. However, the rules are clear.

I was stopped in the car yesterday (valid reason), and was quite surprised at the questioning I got when I hit a check point. Definitely wasn't just a token stop and wave through anyway!

CramCycle · 15-01-2021 10:10am

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40207298.html

I presume the journo is paid by the word

Thelonious Monk · 15-01-2021 11:20am

It's really ridiculous that the authorities lose their sh*t if you make something self propelling, be it a bike or a scooter or something.
We should be encouraging things like this, and motorbikes and vespa type scooters in my opinion. Anything that isn't a car.
The Garda seem to take things like this far more seriously than considerably worse "crimes" that you'd see regularly.

15-01-2021 11:49am

CramCycle wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40207298.html

I presume the journo is paid by the word

I loved this bit

Garda Lynch said that a seized vehicle which is not claimed back, might be destroyed. That was in response to a question from Judge Kelleher who laughed when he asked the guard: “Where is the bike now? Are you driving it yourself?”

MojoMaker · 15-01-2021 11:55am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It's really ridiculous that the authorities lose their sh*t if you make something self propelling, be it a bike or a scooter or something.
We should be encouraging things like this, and motorbikes and vespa type scooters in my opinion. Anything that isn't a car.
The Garda seem to take things like this far more seriously than considerably worse "crimes" that you'd see regularly.

We're asking the wrong questions. Surely the core of this should be "was Mr Dos Santos wearing a helmet and hi-viz clothing??"

Thelonious Monk · 15-01-2021 12:38pm

I think there's eScooter legislation being passed today in the Dail. I said this in one of my whatsapp groups with friends and they're all saying "ban them get them off the roads they're dangerous", yes because they cause so much mayhem on the roads. Idiots!
Some people wouldn't be happy unless there were no bikes or scooters and everyone was driving a Qashqai or Suzuki Vitaras, they're ever so safe.

breezy1985 · 15-01-2021 1:10pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I think there's eScooter legislation being passed today in the Dail. I said this in one of my whatsapp groups with friends and they're all saying "ban them get them off the roads they're dangerous", yes because they cause so much mayhem on the roads. Idiots!
Some people wouldn't be happy unless there were no bikes or scooters and everyone was driving a Qashqai or Suzuki Vitaras, they're ever so safe.

What makes them look dangerous is they are mostly ridden by kids.
There are a few round my estate who hop off paths onto the road without looking or drive up the wrong side of the road but they are no more dangerous than all the kids running across the road or playing soccer on the road really

Tombo2001 · 15-01-2021 1:38pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

What makes them look dangerous is they are mostly ridden by kids.
There are a few round my estate who hop off paths onto the road without looking or drive up the wrong side of the road but they are no more dangerous than all the kids running across the road or playing soccer on the road really

This.

I've a big bugbear around the fact that people see kids in scooters, and think scooters are dangerous, they see kids on bikes and think cyclists are dangerous.

But they never never see teenagers in cars and think cars are dangerous.

Its prime double think.

And the tragic irony here is that cars are phenomenally more dangerous when driven by teenagers, compared with bikes or scooters.

breezy1985 · 15-01-2021 2:07pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

This.

I've a big bugbear around the fact that people see kids in scooters, and think scooters are dangerous, they see kids on bikes and think cyclists are dangerous.

But they never never see teenagers in cars and think cars are dangerous.

Its prime double think.

And the tragic irony here is that cars are phenomenally more dangerous when driven by teenagers, compared with bikes or scooters.

Insurance companies certainly see teenagers as high risk in a car given the premium they charge.

Difference is there are very young kids on bikes and scooters but because people who don't like bikes see what they want to see they refuse to make the distinction between a 12yo and a commuter on a bike but are happy to make the distinction between a car commuter and lads re enacting the circuit of Ireland rally on country roads or doing 60 in a 30 residental zone

Thelonious Monk · 15-01-2021 3:37pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

This.

I've a big bugbear around the fact that people see kids in scooters, and think scooters are dangerous, they see kids on bikes and think cyclists are dangerous.

But they never never see teenagers in cars and think cars are dangerous.

Its prime double think.

And the tragic irony here is that cars are phenomenally more dangerous when driven by teenagers, compared with bikes or scooters.

There were a few teenagers killed in cars last year that spring to mind, but they prefer to focus on scooters and tiny engines on bicycles.
When are they going to put speed limiters on cars?

tomasrojo · 15-01-2021 3:53pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

And the tragic irony here is that cars are phenomenally more dangerous when driven by teenagers, compared with bikes or scooters.

There was some research done in the UK that suggested that cars were more dangerous to the teenagers driving the car as well as those outside the car, compared with teenagers getting around by other transport modes.

Tombo2001 · 15-01-2021 4:54pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40207907.html

In the news today.

FFS.

Thelonious Monk · 15-01-2021 5:44pm

God that's horrific. It has been proven time and time again that if you want to murder someone here, use a car and you'll get off lightly.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40191264.html

This wan didn't even do any time at all for trying to run over 2 teenage girls.

Tenzor07 · 15-01-2021 6:40pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

God that's horrific. It has been proven time and time again that if you want to murder someone here, use a car and you'll get off lightly.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40191264.html

This wan didn't even do any time at all for trying to run over 2 teenage girls.

Ah sure 'tis a bit of history with that particular one boss: https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/five-before-court-over-alleged-hit-and-run-car-park-feud-incident-39498616.html

magicbastarder · 15-01-2021 7:44pm

i don't remember reading *that* enid blyton book when i was a kid.

cletus · 15-01-2021 8:21pm

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/kerry-co-council-express-concerns-over-any-delays-to-greenway-plan-1064614.html

At least it looks like Kerry Co Co are eager to push on with the development

CramCycle · 16-01-2021 11:09am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40207907.html

In the news today.

FFS.

To this day, I still can't get around people driving off after an accident. It's so bizarre, the complete lack of what I would define as basic morality is astounding. I've seen both sides of it myself but thankfully not on any incident this serious, witnessed drivers go round a body on the road and continue on. I mean, where did we go wrong.

A friend postulated that its basic survivor mentality. You stay, you definitely get in trouble, and there appears to be no extra leniency unlike other countries given for doing the right thing. Whereas if you run, you might not get caught but so long as you apologise and seem contrite, you will almost certainly receive the same sentence or less than you would have for doing the right thing. This led me down the path that we have a lot of higher functioning sociopaths in society and also that we should adjust our legal system to encourage some sense of morality in those who are incapable of it. Personally I couldn't run, maybe I am the idiot though.

AndrewJRenko · 16-01-2021 11:30am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

God that's horrific. It has been proven time and time again that if you want to murder someone here, use a car and you'll get off lightly.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40191264.html

This wan didn't even do any time at all for trying to run over 2 teenage girls.

Shame that the judge didn't take her up on her offer; "I’ll go to jail for you."

AndrewJRenko · 16-01-2021 11:36am

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Ah sure 'tis a bit of history with that particular one boss: https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/five-before-court-over-alleged-hit-and-run-car-park-feud-incident-39498616.html

The link showed up this interesting headline, which is the kind of driving I could probably get behind.

https://www.sundayworld.com/crime/courts/soldier-charged-with-carless-driving-said-gardai-pulled-gun-on-him-39975057.html

CramCycle · 16-01-2021 1:08pm

Does that mean he's out of the Army, I have vague recollection that getting a conviction would lead to dismissal.

Seth Brundle · 17-01-2021 12:28pm

https://twitter.com/noteworthy_ie/status/1350754964558270464?s=19

https://twitter.com/noteworthy_ie/status/1350754971629846533?s=19

breezy1985 · 17-01-2021 1:32pm

Theft is just seen by many as an unavoidable risk you take when you cycle.

Sick to death too having to defend myself when I'm not elated and grateful when those stupid wheel locks get installed somewhere

Seth Brundle · 17-01-2021 2:30pm

https://twitter.com/ccferrie/status/1350773596227047424?s=19

magicbastarder · 17-01-2021 2:45pm

to be fair, the cyclists are probably living longer by cycling, even with the NO2.

TheChizler · 17-01-2021 2:56pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

Theft is just seen by many as an unavoidable risk you take when you cycle.

Sick to death too having to defend myself when I'm not elated and grateful when those stupid wheel locks get installed somewhere

Some of them aren't too bad if they're high enough to get a u-lock around the frame by the rear wheel, too many people just lock their quick-release wheel to them.

tomasrojo · 17-01-2021 7:07pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Some of them aren't too bad if they're high enough to get a u-lock around the frame by the rear wheel, too many people just lock their quick-release wheel to them.

The wheel grabbers/toast racks have the additional problem that you can cut through them with bolt cutters.

Stark · 17-01-2021 7:11pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

to be fair, the cyclists are probably living longer by cycling, even with the NO2.

Also apparently it's worse if you're sitting in a car as the air intake is lower to the ground.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 10:24am

Stark wrote: »

Also apparently it's worse if you're sitting in a car as the air intake is lower to the ground.

Well, this seems to have been a pretty famous article about that, and seems to agree with you:

“Children sitting in the backseat of vehicles are likely to be exposed to dangerous levels [of air pollution],” said King. “You may be driving a cleaner vehicle but your children are sitting in a box collecting toxic gases from all the vehicles around you.”

A range of experiments, some as far back as 2001, have shown that drivers inside vehicles are exposed to far higher levels of air pollution than those walking or cycling along the same urban routes.

“It is nine to 12 times higher inside the car than outside,” he said. “Children are in the back of the car and often the car has the fans on, just sucking the fresh exhaust coming out of the car or lorry in front of them straight into the back of the car.”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/jun/12/children-risk-air-pollution-cars-former-uk-chief-scientist-warns

Macy0161 · 18-01-2021 10:35am

tomasrojo wrote: »

The wheel grabbers/toast racks have the additional problem that you can cut through them with bolt cutters.

Yes, I continue to point this out in my workplace - I had a motorbike chain long enough to loop through the frame, but you'd go through the rack quicker than most of the locks.

I keep asking for sheffield stands, but apparently, we're getting a cage and wheel racks. :rolleyes:

TheChizler · 18-01-2021 10:42am

tomasrojo wrote: »

The wheel grabbers/toast racks have the additional problem that you can cut through them with bolt cutters.

Same as the u lock no? Or are they normally harder steel?

magicbastarder · 18-01-2021 10:47am

Macy0161 wrote: »

I keep asking for sheffield stands, but apparently, we're getting a cage and wheel racks. :rolleyes:

i suspect a cage - depending on where it's situated - could be the most secure option of all.
in our place, many people didn't even bother locking their bikes, it was a cage only cyclists had access to; you had to register for your swipe to allow you access.

Seth Brundle · 18-01-2021 11:09am

@Macy0161 - it could be worse - you could have gotten this...

https://twitter.com/commuteroo/status/1350789123783725057

what_traffic · 18-01-2021 11:11am

Keep fighting Macy0161
Still need good Sheffield stands within a cage.
Know of a workplace that had a cage(going back 6/7 years ago), thieves cut out the lock around the section around the cage lock with a snips). Was very poor design.
Had two wheel gripper toaster stands within the cage, + demand was way higher + cage was big, which resulted in a no of bikes been stolen as they were unlocked (those using the wheel grippers had bikes stolen as only thing they could lock was the front wheel) plus these type of stands are a pain to use anyhow. Quick release and away they went. They installed proper galvanized steel panel around the door lock after that and added Sheffield stands within the cage.

Macy0161 · 18-01-2021 11:47am

TheChizler wrote: »

Same as the u lock no? Or are they normally harder steel?

Not the ones in my place anyway. I reckon my weak af cycling upper body would get through them with bolt cutters of decent length/ leverage.

I've been arguing for a cage too, but I still think it should have sheffield stands within it. Cage with wheel stands will still mean personally I'll be compromising on the bike I'll use rather than my preferred.

18-01-2021 11:53am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

God that's horrific. It has been proven time and time again that if you want to murder someone here, use a car and you'll get off lightly.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40191264.html

This wan didn't even do any time at all for trying to run over 2 teenage girls.

That's outrageous, but she wasn't treated lightly because she was in a car. Because of what she is.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:12pm

TheChizler wrote: »

Same as the u lock no? Or are they normally harder steel?

Depends on the u-lock, but good u-locks are hardened steel. The wheel-grabber racks arent't made out of hardened steel (it's expensive), and they're quite thin compared to a good u-lock. It's on the extreme end, but a Fahgettaboudit mini u-lock is 18mm of hardened steel.

You also can get a u-lock far away from the ground with a Sheffield stand, where it's hard to use the ground for extra leverage, which is the standard technique for busting good u-locks with bolt cutters. Your lock usually ends up much closer to the ground with wheel-grabbers.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:20pm

I have to say that, as far as I'm aware, the usual style of stealing bikes from wheel-grabbers, as already mentioned, is to uncouple the front wheel and replace it with the front wheel of another bike.

Which obviously is a technique that can be deployed against Sheffield stands, in the right circumstances. I was very taken by this two-act play in one picture I saw in UCD one day:

Tombo2001 · 18-01-2021 12:23pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

https://twitter.com/noteworthy_ie/status/1350754964558270464?s=19

https://twitter.com/noteworthy_ie/status/1350754971629846533?s=19

A Dublin Cycling survey showed that many people who had bikes stolen had locked their bikes at the time of theft.

And yet the survey would indicate it was somehow the bike owners fault that their bikes were stolen.

A Dublin Cycling survey would do well to look at what happens to bikes when they are stolen; why it is so easy to sell a stolen bike.

Or why insurance companies like to sponsor cycling 'be safe be seen' initiatives, and use cyclists as a feel good in their advertising, but wont offer bike theft insurance.

Or why nobody is ever punished for stealing a bike.

Nobody steals a bike. They steal 'near cash'.

The hi viz wasnt bright enough, they werent far enough to the left of the road, the lock was strong enough (or dont you know you actually need 6 U Locks on your bike and they all need to made from fortified platinum).

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:25pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

A Dublin Cycling survey showed that many people who had bikes stolen had locked their bikes at the time of theft.

And yet the survey would indicate it was somehow their fault.

A Dublin Cycling survey would do well to look at what happens to bikes when they are stolen; why it is so easy to sell a stolen bike.

Nobody steals a bike. They steal 'near cash'.

I think they found that a lot of the locked bikes were locked with cable locks though. You also get people with a decent enough Kryptonite lock and the cable, and they secure the bike with the cable, and treat the lock itself like a padlock on the cable, not securing the frame.

It's not the fault of the victim, but it is something everyone can make much less likely.

Tombo2001 · 18-01-2021 12:28pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I think they found that a lot of the locked bikes were locked with cable locks though. You also get people with a decent enough Kryptonite lock and the cable, and they secure the bike with the cable, and treat the lock itself like a padlock on the cable, not securing the frame.

It's not the fault of the victim, but it is something everyone can make much less likely.

Sorry, but its firmly pointing the finger in the direction of the victim.

Same as the gardai always banging on about how cyclists dont know their (stolen) bike's registration number, when the reality is if they did it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference to them getting their bike back.

And given that bike theives can cut through a U lock in less than a minute using axle grinders from Lidl.....no I dont think it makes anything far less likely.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:30pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Sorry, but its firmly pointing the finger in the direction of the victim.

Same as the gardai always banging on about how cyclists dont know their (stolen) bike's registration number, when the reality is if they did it wouldnt make a blind bit of difference to them getting their bike back.

I strongly disagree. If anything, it's pointing the finger at the person who sold the the bike and the cable lock.

And whatever about having the serial number, having something better than a cable lock *does* make your bike far less likely to be stolen. You can defeat a cable lock with your bare hands. Nobody should let somebody leave a bike shop with a new bike and just a cable lock.

Tombo2001 · 18-01-2021 12:31pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I strongly disagree. If anything, it's pointing the finger at the person who sold the the bike and the cable lock.

And whatever about having the serial number, having something better than a cable lock *does* make your bike far less likely to be stolen. You can defeat a cable lock with your bare hands. Nobody should let somebody leave a bike shop with a new bike and just a cable lock.

Disagree, anyone who spends any way decent amount of money on a bike gets a U Lock. Nobody spends decent money on a bike and gets a cheap cable lock. Any bike theif prefers to steal a good bike, hence their dexterity with U Locks.

The only exception is kids bikes, because a 12 year is likely to lose the key to a good U Lock. There is a clear market here for good, secure locks that a child can use, the market place does not cater for this at all.

Stark · 18-01-2021 12:31pm

I see it as a bit of an arms race at times. My kryptonite new york lock has worked well in the time I have it but sometimes I wonder if the main reason for that is the bikes with cable locks parked next to mine are easier pickings. I'm sure if everyone used good locks, the scumbags would just up their game and start carrying better tools around.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:33pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

And given that bike theives can cut through a U lock in less than a minute using axle grinders from Lidl.....no I dont think it makes anything far less likely.

Yes, it does. Angle grinders aren't used by most thieves. What you're arguing is that it's impossible to make your bike unstealable, which is a different argument.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:35pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Disagree, anyone who spends any way decent amount of money on a bike gets a U Lock. Any bike theif prefers to steal a good bike, hence their dexterity with U Locks.

I know plenty of people who bought a modest bike and a cable lock. Mostly had the bike stolen within a few weeks.

Tombo2001 · 18-01-2021 12:38pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

Yes, it does. Angle grinders aren't used by most thieves. What you're arguing is that it's impossible to make your bike unstealable, which is a different argument.

I would argue that if you lock your bike at particular sheffield stands in the city, if its a decent bike then no matter how good the u-lock then it will be gone in a matter of days.

I would also argue that it would be far far more effective to target bike theives and in particular their ability to sell bikes easily. Make it mandatory to display serial number in every on line ad, and every time a bike shop buys or sells a second hand bike.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:41pm

Stark wrote: »

I see it as a bit of an arms race at times. My kryptonite new york lock has worked well in the time I have it but sometimes I wonder if the main reason for that is the bikes with cable locks parked next to mine are easier pickings. I'm sure if everyone used good locks, the scumbags would just up their game and start carrying better tools around.

A lot of thieves are just teenagers wandering around looking for something to steal. They steal the bikes with cable locks, or bronze/silver-rated u-locks that can be broken by rotating the bike and using it as a lever

There are better prepared thieves who are opportunistic and use bolt cutters that can be hung around their neck or hidden in a bag, or use snips or metal bars.

And then there are people who are determined and use angle grinders, who are looking for expensive bikes/e-bikes.

You can't do much about the last group, but they're not the biggest group.

tomasrojo · 18-01-2021 12:42pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I would argue that if you lock your bike at particular sheffield stands in the city, if its a decent bike then no matter how good the u-lock then it will be gone in a matter of days.

I've been locking bikes in the city centre for decades and never had one stolen. Because I have good locks. One will be stolen eventually. But I'll have had decades of happy, relatively care-free cycling, rather than waiting for the gardaí to care.

magicbastarder · 18-01-2021 1:00pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

A Dublin Cycling survey would do well to look at what happens to bikes when they are stolen; why it is so easy to sell a stolen bike.

i think this is outside the remit/expertise/capability of DCC, to be fair.

MojoMaker · 18-01-2021 1:04pm

tomasrojo wrote: »

I've been locking bikes in the city centre for decades and never had one stolen. Because I have good locks. One will be stolen eventually. But I'll have had decades of happy, relatively care-free cycling, rather than waiting for the gardaí to care.

Interested in what you use? Have been lucky enough to always be able to bring a bike inside with me or park it at fairly private locations in the suburbs and thus never had to really think about expensive bike security. Have a few decent locks for a motorcycle, made somewhat easy by underseat storage of course - a 5kg chain is no issue when it's being transported as part of the bike etc.

What's the best pound-for-pound solution for bike security in relatively unsecured locations?

Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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