Removing material from a skip.

UrbanFox · 05-08-2020 12:17pm #1

Situation 1.

D passes a skip situated on the public road.
D removes and keeps something from the skip.
D has no permission to do so.

Situation 2.

As for situation 1 but the skip is in the driveway of a house.

Q. Does D commit any stateable offences ? If so, what are they ?

joeguevara · 05-08-2020 1:31pm

UrbanFox wrote: »

Situation 1.

D passes a skip situated on the public road.
D removes and keeps something from the skip.
D has no permission to do so.

Situation 2.

As for situation 1 but the skip is in the driveway of a house.

Q. Does D commit any stateable offences ? If so, what are they ?

Do you think that there are any criminal or tort offences here? What differences do you think exists between them? Is there a difference entering someones property without permission as opposed to a public highway?

Allinall · 05-08-2020 1:34pm

Not a legal person in any way, but I would have thought the principle that you cannot just take something that doesn't belong to you would apply.

Would it not be theft in both scenarios?

05-08-2020 1:35pm

UrbanFox wrote: »

Situation 1.

D passes a skip situated on the public road.
D removes and keeps something from the skip.
D has no permission to do so.

Situation 2.

As for situation 1 but the skip is in the driveway of a house.

Q. Does D commit any stateable offences ? If so, what are they ?

In situation 1, could you not argue that the binman/skip collector doesn't have express permission to remove the skip and its contents either?

joeguevara · 05-08-2020 1:38pm

Deleted User wrote: »

In situation 1, could you not argue that the binman/skip collector doesn't have express permission to remove the skip and its contents either?

If we take it that the contract would include appropriate removal of any rubbish and disposing it in a correct manner, then they cant just go rooting through it on the side of the road. But if it included that the company could recycle any property if done so in an environmental fashion (including for compensation) then they could.

BorneTobyWilde · 05-08-2020 1:43pm

People do throw out perfectly good things. Recycling centers get in 100's of bicycles every week, most just have a flat tyre, or the chains off.
Pretty crazy

ZX7R · 05-08-2020 2:36pm

The act of removing items from a skip is not illegal in Ireland even if the skip is on private property.
You can be done for trespassing on to private property.
Also where a skip is on public ground the had been cases where the skip diver's have been prosecuted for criminal damage while removal of items.
One a person places an item or wast into a skip it becomes the property of the refuge company same as the weekly bins people put out

greasepalm · 05-08-2020 3:08pm

I remember years ago getting work done builder wanted a skip for getting rid of waste possible some mad figure and i said no and would get rid of it myself.
All metal was put by gate as thinking it wont be there that long ,loads of timber floors in another pile and plaster and other stuff in other piles.Metal vanished within 2 days possibly by travelers who look out skips or work done.
As drive was small they only had to walk in 10 feet to help themselves,wood could be used if you new someone with a log burner.
I was lucky as i got notification of large skip in for the residents and managed to pack all the wood in the back of the car.

Yes i have helped myself to remove many buckets of stone driveway topping because it was not what the owner wanted with permission from the builder when skip was outside on path.

30 years i remember apple mac pcs in skip and asked could i have any and was told come back later and help myself,wow 8gb pc and went downhill from there.Sometimes you see something of use and say i can reuse it and grab it.

coylemj · 05-08-2020 4:11pm

Allinall wrote: »

Not a legal person in any way, but I would have thought the principle that you cannot just take something that doesn't belong to you would apply.

Would it not be theft in both scenarios?

I don't believe it would constitute theft. Your defence would be that the owner had effectively abandoned the property. And this defence would apply ....

(2) For the purposes of this section a person does not appropriate property without the consent of its owner if—

(a) the person believes that he or she has the owner's consent, or would have the owner's consent if the owner knew of the appropriation of the property and the circumstances in which it was appropriated....

Which is the same as saying that you would have knocked on the door to ask permission to take the goods but as it was a skip and not something like a charity bag full of clothes and bric a brac, why bother?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0004.html#sec4

joeguevara · 05-08-2020 4:17pm

coylemj wrote: »

I don't believe it would constitute theft. Your defence would be that the owner had effectively abandoned the property. And this defence would apply ....

(2) For the purposes of this section a person does not appropriate property without the consent of its owner if—

(a) the person believes that he or she has the owner's consent, or would have the owner's consent if the owner knew of the appropriation of the property and the circumstances in which it was appropriated....

Which is the same as saying that you would have knocked on the door to ask permission to take the goods but as it was a skip and not something like a charity bag full of clothes and bric a brac, why bother?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0004.html#sec4

Good point. However, it would get more difficult to explain this consent if lets say the gate to the property was locked or a no trespass sign on the front. None of this is a black and white scenario. Also, another factor is what constitutes a skip. For example, a number of years ago a relative was getting an extension on their house. There was a container to the side of the house to hold beams that were being taken out, but were going to be put back in. Now, one mans container is another mans skip. If someone had come in and taken these expensive beams, could they argue that as they were in a metal box, they thought they were being thrown out?

Strumms · 05-08-2020 4:21pm

ZX7R wrote: »

The act of removing items from a skip is not illegal in Ireland even if the skip is on private property.
You can be done for trespassing on to private property.
Also where a skip is on public ground the had been cases where the skip diver's have been prosecuted for criminal damage while removal of items.
One a person places an item or wast into a skip it becomes the property of the refuge company same as the weekly bins people put out

So I could have a bag of clothes left out for a charity, beside but outside my porch door in my garden, on my property.... if that gets half inched, that constitutes theft, but if the bag is in a skip, they can walk onto my property, remove said bag from the skip and walk off ? No crime committed apart from trespass ? Seems mad. Entering a property and removing items that don’t belong to you, by this logic somebody could go ring my doorbell, walk into my house when I answer and go through my bins ?

Ger Roe · 05-08-2020 4:28pm

I had a skip in my garden once and had a random caller to the door asking if he could go through it. I said 'no' for the following reasons :

I was paying to dispose of waste material - what is the point of me paying for the temporary holding of the material in a large metal container, just so that it can be emptied by anyone passing by?

If material was taken from it, how would I know where it ended up? Again, part of my cost and obligation is to ensure that it is disposed of responsibly.

Also, I wouldn't want to be giving any random caller an implied permission to be looking around my home. That's my take on it anyway.

I also once had to order a skip for a work premises that was gone through so often that we filled it three times, before it was collected. It was gone through every night and was less full again in the morning. There was always a worry about where the waste had gone and where it might end up, but we didn't have the facilities to secure it or place a guard watch on it.

ZX7R · 05-08-2020 4:53pm

Strumms wrote: »

So I could have a bag of clothes left out for a charity, beside but outside my porch door in my garden, on my property.... if that gets half inched, that constitutes theft, but if the bag is in a skip, they can walk onto my property, remove said bag from the skip and walk off ? No crime committed apart from trespass ? Seems mad. Entering a property and removing items that don’t belong to you, by this logic somebody could go ring my doorbell, walk into my house when I answer and go through my bins ?

But your missing the point if you place it in the skip the bag of clothes do not belong to you either,it belongs to the waist company.
As far as leaving bag of clothes out for charity you are not paying a waist company to remove it different kettle of fish altogether.you are gifting the clothes so if someone Rob's it yes it theft as it's still your property till collected by the charity.
And as far as the bins in the you're home that's your private property and bin that is not comparable to the question of the skips

Strumms · 05-08-2020 6:09pm

ZX7R wrote: »

But your missing the point if you place it in the skip the bag of clothes do not belong to you either,it belongs to the waist company.
As far as leaving bag of clothes out for charity you are not paying a waist company to remove it different kettle of fish altogether.you are gifting the clothes so if someone Rob's it yes it theft as it's still your property till collected by the charity.
And as far as the bins in the you're home that's your private property and bin that is not comparable to the question of the skips

If the skip is on your property... nobody is entitled to access your property.. look in the skip... remove items they want...doesnt matter if the skip isnt your property... your house, garden and driveway. The skip company have not taken ownership of the items.

coylemj · 05-08-2020 6:13pm

Ger Roe wrote: »

..... what is the point of me paying for the temporary holding of the material in a large metal container, just so that it can be emptied by anyone passing by?

I think you provided the answer in the same post .....

Ger Roe wrote: »

I also once had to order a skip for a work premises that was gone through so often that we filled it three times, before it was collected.

Eduard Khil · 05-08-2020 6:14pm

Skip company are paid to rent skip and remove it once payment is made, so no anyone collecting the skip for the company is not doing anything illegal. As a previous poster says the skip could have hazardous materials inside leavu it be rather than take any risk

greasepalm · 05-08-2020 6:29pm

Dont think you are allowed to dump hazardous items in the bins/bags/skips and only in a proper amenity centre.

80j2lc5y7u6qs9 · 05-08-2020 11:12pm

ZX7R wrote: »

The act of removing items from a skip is not illegal in Ireland even if the skip is on private property.
You can be done for trespassing on to private property.
Also where a skip is on public ground the had been cases where the skip diver's have been prosecuted for criminal damage while removal of items.
One a person places an item or wast into a skip it becomes the property of the refuge company same as the weekly bins people put out

how can he be prosecuted for removing it from the skip on the public road so?

listermint · 05-08-2020 11:16pm

Ger Roe wrote: »

I had a skip in my garden once and had a random caller to the door asking if he could go through it. I said 'no' for the following reasons :

I was paying to dispose of waste material - what is the point of me paying for the temporary holding of the material in a large metal container, just so that it can be emptied by anyone passing by?

If material was taken from it, how would I know where it ended up? Again, part of my cost and obligation is to ensure that it is disposed of responsibly.

Also, I wouldn't want to be giving any random caller an implied permission to be looking around my home. That's my take on it anyway.

I also once had to order a skip for a work premises that was gone through so often that we filled it three times, before it was collected. It was gone through every night and was less full again in the morning. There was always a worry about where the waste had gone and where it might end up, but we didn't have the facilities to secure it or place a guard watch on it.

No offense but folks aren't talking invaluable stuff to dump it.

It's because of this attitude we have a throw away society.

I put this attitude as simply what's in it for me....

punisher5112 · 05-08-2020 11:18pm

In the UK you can't remove rubbish as what would be in a skip unless one has a valid licence for removal of waste.....

Q

greasepalm · 05-08-2020 11:20pm

I would like to see more stuff reused upcycled instead of going to land fill.EG 4 vcrs not dumped but passed on to a good home.

kirving · 06-08-2020 12:25am

Plenty of great stuff to be had in skips. I know someone who saw the same model of self propelled lawnmower that they had at home in a skip. Asked could they take it for spares and the homeowner said yes, as it wouldn't move forward. Expected a seized engine, but turns out the drive belt had just slipped off...

I was at the public dump recently and spotted an almost perfect Bosch under counter freezer. I opened it, smelled clean and was still cold. Asked the guy working there could I take it and he said no problem. Works perfectly to this day.

I wouldn't be giving callers a free look around the Garden and she'd during a clearout, which I've been asked for on occasion, but I can't see the problem in someone taking what is to be thrown out anyway.

Ger Roe · 06-08-2020 2:33pm

listermint wrote: »

No offense but folks aren't talking invaluable stuff to dump it.

It's because of this attitude we have a throw away society.

I put this attitude as simply what's in it for me....

In my particular case... your assumption about my attitude would be very wrong. I operate as far from a throw away society as possible. I was paying to have waste items disposed of responsibly. By doing so I am as sure as I can be, that it will be done properly.

You are presuming a lot to say that anyone removing stuff from a skip will not end up dumping it illegally, after further inspection and consideration. In my case, anything in the skip would have had to pass my own strict 'totally useless' assessment.

I do see your point about people throwing away stuff that can be recovered/re-used... but I don't know how you manage that aspect to be sure of where the items end up. Even in re-cycle centers, you are not allowed to go through the items deposited and having some technical skills, I know that a lot of the electronic equipment deposited there, can be easily repaired. I presume it comes down to insurance and potential damages claims... the same reason why charity shops won't accept electrical items.

ZX7R · 06-08-2020 2:57pm

Musa Screeching Specialist wrote: »

how can he be prosecuted for removing it from the skip on the public road so?

He can't

brightspark · 06-08-2020 3:13pm

Apologies if too far off topic, but who owns the coins in a toll booth coin reject? (obviously if not collected by the driver who put them in)

looksee · 06-08-2020 3:36pm

I had a skip in the front drive that I was filling. A traveler family came by and started rooting in it. I had no objection to them taking anything, but they were shifting stuff around that I had carefully slotted in to make maximum use of the skip. I would have ended up with a tangled heap of stuff that filled the skip instead of organised packing that gave me another third to fill. So I showed them where to find a couple of items of metal value then shooed them off. I would like to see more recycling opportunities from skips, but at the same time people have no business grubbing around turning over and dis-organising the contents of a skip.

MrMusician18 · 06-08-2020 3:42pm

brightspark wrote: »

Apologies if too far off topic, but who owns the coins in a toll booth coin reject? (obviously if not collected by the driver who put them in)

Doesn't the law of finders keepers apply here?

Samuel T. Cogley · 06-08-2020 4:49pm

looksee wrote: »

I had a skip in the front drive that I was filling. A traveler family came by and started rooting in it. I had no objection to them taking anything, but they were shifting stuff around that I had carefully slotted in to make maximum use of the skip. I would have ended up with a tangled heap of stuff that filled the skip instead of organised packing that gave me another third to fill. So I showed them where to find a couple of items of metal value then shooed them off. I would like to see more recycling opportunities from skips, but at the same time people have no business grubbing around turning over and dis-organising the contents of a skip.

I feel your pain. I had a rotten old Wendy house in mine, within minutes travelers looking if they could have it. Was polite enough. Tried to transport it on a bicycle, toppled over into my car - I was mighty pissed off.

nuac · 06-08-2020 7:51pm

Noticed that in Berlin on Sunday mornings books and other articles are left out on doorsteps for collection by anyone interested.

Samuel T. Cogley · 06-08-2020 7:56pm

nuac wrote: »

Noticed that in Berlin on Sunday mornings books and other articles are left out on doorsteps for collection by anyone interested.

That's pretty cool in fairness.

NUTLEY BOY · 07-08-2020 12:43pm

Look at what the Court of Appeal [EWCA] did here
LINK http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2003/2206.html

Defendants entered a golf course at night to dive in the water hazards to recover lost golf balls for re-sale. They had no permission to enter. They were convicted of theft. Appeal dismissed.

looksee · 07-08-2020 10:26pm

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

Look at what the Court of Appeal [EWCA] did here
LINK http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2003/2206.html

Defendants entered a golf course at night to dive in the water hazards to recover lost golf balls for re-sale. They had no permission to enter. They were convicted of theft. Appeal dismissed.

Its kind of amusing that if they were so confident the balls were not owned by anyone they found it advisable to go diving by night!

Samuel T. Cogley · 08-08-2020 9:00am

looksee wrote: »

Its kind of amusing that if they were so confident the balls were not owned by anyone they found it advisable to go diving by night!

If done by day it might be a bit distracting to the golfers, who if there were enough balls in the water trap to warrant a diving expedition, are clearly not that accurate!

Garibaldi? · 08-08-2020 4:13pm

Regularly people take stuff from skips and decide later that they don't really want it and dump it down the road somewhere,

Pkiernan · 08-08-2020 4:20pm

brightspark wrote: »

Apologies if too far off topic, but who owns the coins in a toll booth coin reject? (obviously if not collected by the driver who put them in)

Me

greasepalm · 08-08-2020 4:43pm

Next in line with good eyesight.

Edgware · 08-08-2020 7:45pm

Is it illegal to put something in a skip left on the public road?
A gent in our area had a skip delivered on Friday evening in time for a big clear out on Saturday.
On Saturday morning the skip contained mattresses, bicycles, hedge clippings etc.
I know the skip was delivered Friday as I was talking with a neighbour who was cutting his hedge at the time it was delivered

greasepalm · 08-08-2020 9:24pm

I got a free piano in ours.

aslanroars · 08-08-2020 9:44pm

Its like the junk collection.council use to pick up for free.give u 2 days notice to put stuff out.when the travelers got wind of collection area.they would flood area with vans.take the sell able stuff throw rest around.then they started gettung fake cards made up.and they go around posting in certain areas.so people thought them real.and leave junk out.but the hungry feckers would ask the people for the cards back.we had another traveler who asked us for names of streets to be lived by council.use to tell him that info cost 4 breakfast rolls.so we d get 20 euros off him.and by the way we use to pick up tons of great stuff ourselfs to keep or sell on.

Ticking and Bashing · 08-08-2020 10:00pm

Sure what harm if someone removes something from the skip - you're throwing it out for a reason! One man's trash is another's treasure. In some ways, people removing things allows for more stuff to be thrown in!

08-08-2020 10:26pm

ZX7R wrote: »

The act of removing items from a skip is not illegal in Ireland even if the skip is on private property.
You can be done for trespassing on to private property.
Also where a skip is on public ground the had been cases where the skip diver's have been prosecuted for criminal damage while removal of items.
One a person places an item or wast into a skip it becomes the property of the refuge company same as the weekly bins people put out

I would disagree and suggest It's theft.

The people putting it out, did so for the bin company. Not for you or any third party.

ZX7R · 09-08-2020 11:42am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I would disagree and suggest It's theft.

The people putting it out, did so for the bin company. Not for you or any third party.

It doesn't matter if you disagree,there is no law that makes it illegal .
People have been convicted of other offenses in relation to the removal from skips but not for the removal of items from them.

sunnysoutheast · 09-08-2020 12:18pm

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

That's pretty cool in fairness.

They used to do the same in Basel when I lived there. Once a month you could leave any unwanted reusable items out, furniture etc. Nothing electrical or gas. Not sure if it still happens.

Can only imagine the carnage if it was tried here.

09-08-2020 1:26pm

ZX7R wrote: »

It doesn't matter if you disagree,there is no law that makes it illegal .
People have been convicted of other offenses in relation to the removal from skips but not for the removal of items from them.

again I disagree and this is a discussion forum afterall. Section 4 theft and fraud offences act 2001 covers in my opionion.

People dont get prosecuted because no one cares about it so dont make complaints but thats not to say that no prosecution has ever happened.

A quick google shows a case in the UK (https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/18286172.man-court-stealing-53-pouches-tobacco-skip/) and Germany (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-50345264). Ok they are differerent jurisdictions but the UK theft offence is word for word almost the exact same as ours.

Of course a defence under subsection 2 could apply as well depending on the situation and the evidence in the case but I dont think its as clear cut as being ok to take purely based on its location.

Peregrinus · 10-08-2020 2:59am

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I would disagree and suggest It's theft.

The people putting it out, did so for the bin company. Not for you or any third party.

No. The people putting it out are paying the bin company to take it away. There is nothing in the transaction to suggest that they are selling it to the bin company (if they were, the payment flow would be the other way) or gifting it to the bin company (if they were gifting it, there would be no payment).

Putting something in the rubbish - whether your own bin left out for regular collection, or a public bin in the street, or a rubbish skip that you have hired - is tantamount to abandoning it. In the absence of some fairly unusual circumstance, it's now ownerless property, and anybody who acquired possession may assert ownership.

As a matter of civil law, the original owner could possibly assert that he hadn't intended to abandon ownership, and seek the return of the property, and he might succeed (depending on the facts).

But, as a matter of criminal law, I do not think a theft charge would succeed. Theft requires an intention to deprive the owner of the item concerned; if you think the property is abandoned you can't have that intention, and for a theft charge to succeed it would be necessary to prove that the defendant knew that the property was not abandoned, despite having been thrown into a bin or skip and left in the street for collection and disposal. Very hard to see how that could be proven.

jams100 · 10-08-2020 3:44am

Ger Roe wrote: »

I had a skip in my garden once and had a random caller to the door asking if he could go through it. I said 'no' for the following reasons :

I was paying to dispose of waste material - what is the point of me paying for the temporary holding of the material in a large metal container, just so that it can be emptied by anyone passing by?

If material was taken from it, how would I know where it ended up? Again, part of my cost and obligation is to ensure that it is disposed of responsibly.

I also once had to order a skip for a work premises that was gone through so often that we filled it three times, before it was collected. It was gone through every night and was less full again in the morning. There was always a worry about where the waste had gone and where it might end up, but we didn't have the facilities to secure it or place a guard watch on it.

Who would go to the effort of taking something out of a skip only to dump it?
One mans rubbish is another man's treasure. Better than it ending up in landfill imo

lunamoon · 10-08-2020 10:43am

When I had a skip I was only delighted to see people take stuff from it. Meant that I had more room and didn't need to get a second.

10-08-2020 12:28pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. The people putting it out are paying the bin company to take it away. There is nothing in the transaction to suggest that they are selling it to the bin company (if they were, the payment flow would be the other way) or gifting it to the bin company (if they were gifting it, there would be no payment).

Putting something in the rubbish - whether your own bin left out for regular collection, or a public bin in the street, or a rubbish skip that you have hired - is tantamount to abandoning it. In the absence of some fairly unusual circumstance, it's now ownerless property, and anybody who acquired possession may assert ownership.

As a matter of civil law, the original owner could possibly assert that he hadn't intended to abandon ownership, and seek the return of the property, and he might succeed (depending on the facts).

But, as a matter of criminal law, I do not think a theft charge would succeed. Theft requires an intention to deprive the owner of the item concerned; if you think the property is abandoned you can't have that intention, and for a theft charge to succeed it would be necessary to prove that the defendant knew that the property was not abandoned, despite having been thrown into a bin or skip and left in the street for collection and disposal. Very hard to see how that could be proven.

I havent at one stage mentioned tort, just criminal but I cannot see how you can claim what I think or what I have agreed with my bin company. Thats very much down to the inidividual. The 'reasonable person' leaves a bin out to be disposed off by a set company. Not by random strangers to pick through. Thats the intention.

When you leave something out, its in line with a set contract that the property is to be removed by a set company. Its illegal to abandon property in public so the suggestion doesnt hold water in my opinion where the item is in a skip that I have hired from a set company who have their logo on the side. Same with my bins, no person has permission to go into my bins. Implied or expressed.

Now, Im completely in agreement that a complaint is highly unlikely. Why would it? As numerous people have said, more room for more junk and everyone is happy.

Thats the practice, Im discussing the possible based on law and have cited a UK case where the defence of abandonment was not met or accepted. We both know that while not binding, UK precendent does tend to carry some weight in Ireland.

The closest Irish case isnt the exact same. Its in relation to clothes for charity where the collectors were held to be dishonest as the collection was in fact not for any registered charity. Again it required a complaint which was obtained on that rare occasion but very unlikely in most cases.

Peregrinus · 10-08-2020 2:32pm

Niner leprauchan wrote: »

I havent at one stage mentioned tort, just criminal but I cannot see how you can claim what I think or what I have agreed with my bin company. Thats very much down to the inidividual. The 'reasonable person' leaves a bin out to be disposed off by a set company. Not by random strangers to pick through. Thats the intention.

When you leave something out, its in line with a set contract that the property is to be removed by a set company. Its illegal to abandon property in public so the suggestion doesnt hold water in my opinion where the item is in a skip that I have hired from a set company who have their logo on the side. Same with my bins, no person has permission to go into my bins. Implied or expressed.

Now, Im completely in agreement that a complaint is highly unlikely. Why would it? As numerous people have said, more room for more junk and everyone is happy.

Thats the practice, Im discussing the possible based on law and have cited a UK case where the defence of abandonment was not met or accepted. We both know that while not binding, UK precendent does tend to carry some weight in Ireland.

The closest Irish case isnt the exact same. Its in relation to clothes for charity where the collectors were held to be dishonest as the collection was in fact not for any registered charity. Again it required a complaint which was obtained on that rare occasion but very unlikely in most cases.

I don't know what's in your contract with your bin company, obviously, but I'd be astonished if it included a clause transferring ownership of your wast material to the bin company. The bin company has no desire to own your waste and certainly would not include such a clause in their standard contracts.

In any event, I don't see how this would help you. If you were transferring ownership of your waste to the bin company by putting it in the bin and leaving it out, then they might complain about someone else taking it but you certainly can't; it's not your waste. Nor can you object to somebody going into "your bins"; they are the wast company's bins.

Tl;dr - if you want to retain title to your waste then don't put it in a bin on the street, which is pretty universally understood as indicating that you don't want the stuff any more and have no interest in keeping it. You could perhaps avoid that inference by putting a sign on the bin to the effect that waste in the bin remains the property of Niner Leprechaun, and nobody may take it without permission.

Incidentally, the link you posted to the UK case is dead. Can you double-check it?

joeguevara · 10-08-2020 2:38pm

I doubt any contract transfers ownership to bin company. If that was the case then there would be two issues (a) the original owner would never have to worry about flytipping by the bin company and (b) lets say 10kg of drugs were found in the skip, does the bin company get charged for possession of controlled substance simply by virtue of it being in the skip.

Most contracts I have seen, the ownership remains with the person but the bin company agrees to dispose of it in an enviormental and legal fashion.

Claw Hammer · 10-08-2020 2:48pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

No. The people putting it out are paying the bin company to take it away. There is nothing in the transaction to suggest that they are selling it to the bin company (if they were, the payment flow would be the other way) or gifting it to the bin company (if they were gifting it, there would be no payment).

Putting something in the rubbish - whether your own bin left out for regular collection, or a public bin in the street, or a rubbish skip that you have hired - is tantamount to abandoning it. In the absence of some fairly unusual circumstance, it's now ownerless property, and anybody who acquired possession may assert ownership.

As a matter of civil law, the original owner could possibly assert that he hadn't intended to abandon ownership, and seek the return of the property, and he might succeed (depending on the facts).

But, as a matter of criminal law, I do not think a theft charge would succeed. Theft requires an intention to deprive the owner of the item concerned; if you think the property is abandoned you can't have that intention, and for a theft charge to succeed it would be necessary to prove that the defendant knew that the property was not abandoned, despite having been thrown into a bin or skip and left in the street for collection and disposal. Very hard to see how that could be proven.

It could well be argued that the owner has not abandoned the property placed in the skip but is in the process of delivering it to the refuse company who will convey it to recycling our landfill or incineration as the case may be. The owner would be responsible if he dumped the items on the street so he retains an interest in them even if his intention is to abandon them. The owner does not intend to abandon the items on until he no longer has any legal responsibility for them.

Removing material from a skip.

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