Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

GM228 · 30-05-2019 4:18pm

goingnowhere wrote: »

The entire DART fleet has had regenerative braking since day 1

They didn't from day 1.

The 8100s got retrofitted during refurbishment from 2005 onwards, the 8200s don't have it and the 85XXs got retrofitted between 2008 and 2013 I believe.

L1011 · 30-05-2019 5:30pm

This is one of these things where I'm fairly certain I saw claims in school books in the 90s of them having it; but that could be a false memory or an inaccurate book!

bk · 30-05-2019 6:47pm

L1011 wrote: »

This is one of these things where I'm fairly certain I saw claims in school books in the 90s of them having it; but that could be a false memory or an inaccurate book!

We had this in the 1930's!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drumm_Battery_Train

https://www.independent.ie/life/flashback-1931-first-journey-of-batterypowered-train-34252634.html

Jamie2k9 · 30-05-2019 9:22pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, that sounds like it is part of the plan. You could electrify just in and near stations so that they can get a top-up charge while stopped.

Sounds like a typical Irish approach to transport projects....battery power for what IE want isn't workable.

Effects · 30-05-2019 9:37pm

loyatemu wrote: »

the LHB Darts will be retired

Noooooooooooooooooo

prinzeugen · 31-05-2019 3:08am

L1011 wrote: »

We're not going to be using AC so I'm not sure why it was ever thought to be relevant for this thread. The claim that the units would be less reliable was outright incorrect.

All units use AC motors now regardless of the supply. For example, all the electric units built in the UK since the early 90s use AC motors even although they run off a 750-800v DC third rail supply or 25kv. They could run from 1500v Dc if required.

Any future Irish units will have AC traction motors. Its industry standard now unless specified.

patrickbrophy18 · 01-06-2019 12:55am

Given that the future DART services will be covering longer distances (i.e. Drogheda and Maynooth), it might be an idea to have future fleets fitted with on-board toilet facilities. What do y'all reckon?

Some of these journeys could be up to 2 hours!

Qrt · 01-06-2019 3:19am

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Given that the future DART services will be covering longer distances (i.e. Drogheda and Maynooth), it might be an idea to have future fleets fitted with on-board toilet facilities. What do y'all reckon?

Some of these journeys could be up to 2 hours!

This was mentioned before, and pretty sure it was shut down. Pearse has ticketside toilets so you could get off the DART there, have a wizz, then get back on the next one. I think they’re eventually meant to be every five minutes, very wishful thinking mind.

dowlingm · 01-06-2019 3:37pm

Agree that AC traction motors (as opposed to input from the overhead) is the way things are going. Wouldn't surprise me if the 201 repowering happens that AC traction will be part of the package. Look at constructors like MotivePower who have switched to AC in their Tier 4 MP40 commuter engines vs DC in their prior offerings in the same family.

http://www.republiclocomotive.com/ac-traction-vs-dc-traction.html

I see there is a proposal to have a depot on the Maynooth line - I would argue that the sooner the better to build that, and ideally to be able to constructed with some capacity to store/daily service DMUs while waiting for the new units. However, is upgrading Maynooth now enough or should the expectation be to have improved/electric service at least as far as Enfield?

As for Talgo, we may very well see them push hard for involvement in this order, since the NTSB just put a big dent in their brand and likely market prospects in North America with the report into Amtrak 501 and the crashworthiness of the Series VI stock.

dowlingm · 01-06-2019 3:38pm

Qrt wrote: »

This was mentioned before, and pretty sure it was shut down. Pearse has ticketside toilets so you could get off the DART there, have a wizz, then get back on the next one. I think they’re eventually meant to be every five minutes, very wishful thinking mind.

Given the coming demographic bulge, I feel transit operators are really missing the need for more bathrooms both on and off trains...

DoctorPan · 01-06-2019 10:26pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Given that the future DART services will be covering longer distances (i.e. Drogheda and Maynooth), it might be an idea to have future fleets fitted with on-board toilet facilities. What do y'all reckon?

Some of these journeys could be up to 2 hours!

Peter Smyth's recent talk to Engineers Ireland mentioned that the new DARTs are to be fitted with toilets, one per 4 piece set as they will be expected to work runs from Greystones to Maynooth and Hazelhatch to Drogheda during their lifetimes.

Stephen15 · 04-06-2019 10:55pm

DoctorPan wrote: »

Peter Smyth's recent talk to Engineers Ireland mentioned that the new DARTs are to be fitted with toilets, one per 4 piece set as they will be expected to work runs from Greystones to Maynooth and Hazelhatch to Drogheda during their lifetimes.

Wouldn't toilets remove standing space within carriages. I don't really see the need for toilets on short distance commuter trains that are only going a similar distance to a bus without toilets. I would imagine they would act as a hiding space for fare dodgers and would be prone to vandalism aswell as taking up space. I have been on commuter trains on the continent without toilets and didn't see any real need for them.

patrickbrophy18 · 04-06-2019 11:23pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Wouldn't toilets remove standing space within carriages.

Not if the carriages are long enough. Besides, this doesn't appear to be a problem with the Commuter trains.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I don't really see the need for toilets on short distance commuter trains that are only going a similar distance to a bus without toilets.

There could potentially be passengers doing the whole journey length. Also, there may be passengers who have IBS.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would imagine they would act as a hiding space for fare dodgers and would be prone to vandalism aswell as taking up space.

Better screening is all this needs at the point of sale and at the turnstiles.

Stephen15 · 04-06-2019 11:47pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Not if the carriages are long enough. Besides, this doesn't appear to be a problem with the Commuter trains.

Commuter trains don't tend to be as busy as the Dart and even when they are it appears the carriage layout is in fact worse for standing passengers

There could potentially be passengers doing the whole journey length. Also, there may be passengers who have IBS.

The new Crossrail trains over in London don't have toilets and will travel even longer distances although all Crossrail stations are due to have toilets. As for passengers with IBS how do they manage today on the DART, the Luas or on buses which do not have on board jax.

I would have a personal preference towards a more of a metro style spec than a commuter spec for DART which would maximise standing room with some traditional seating layout aswell. This can already be seen today on the London Overground and Crossrail/TFL Rail.

Better screening is all this needs at the point of sale and at the turnstiles.

What is needed is a higher onboard presence of revenue protection officers which are virtually non existant presently on IE commuter and DART service which is in my book a far more effective revenue protection technique than ticket barriers and station staff which should be used in addition to effective revenue protection staff. This can already be seen to a certain extent on the Luas.

Thrashssacre · 04-06-2019 11:51pm

Honestly I don’t think we can afford to have toilets I can’t see platforms being lengthened again so 8 car trains is the max we’re gonna have so we need to maximize the amount each train can fit. The population isn’t gonna get any smaller so if you think it’s bad now just wait til you see it in 10 years.

devnull · 05-06-2019 9:09am

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Honestly I don’t think we can afford to have toilets I can’t see platforms being lengthened again so 8 car trains is the max we’re gonna have so we need to maximize the amount each train can fit. The population isn’t gonna get any smaller so if you think it’s bad now just wait til you see it in 10 years.

Sure, but if you have walk through gangways and the fact on an 8 car unit of the 8100s you have 8 cabs and you can go down to 4, means you are going to gain some capacity space.

bk · 05-06-2019 1:16pm

I'd think if you had toilets at every station and a decent frequency, then commuter trains really shouldn't need toilets. Get off, use the toilet, get on the next train if you are that bad.

The toilets on the commuter trains in Cork are pretty horrendous the last time I took that train. They will require a VERY high level of cleaning and maintenance to ensure they don't end up like that.

I'd rather see them maximise the space on the train and invest in station toilets. I can foresee trains needing to be taken out of service due to health and safety concerns.

EDIT: BTW Some might point out that it is hypocritical given my previous stance that every intercity coach should have a toilet. But my stance is that every intercity service that takes more then 2 hours, coach or train should have toilets, less then that and in particular for frequent services, it isn't needed IMO, not if stations have toilets.

Jamie2k9 · 05-06-2019 1:25pm

Remember this order allows a few extra meters (168m approx) over current 2x4 29000 (163m) and there will be 8 car units (i.e. two less driver cabs). 1 toilet per 4 car won't take up much room.

Edit - Both the 4 car and 8 car units should be through units like Thameslink class 700.

bk · 05-06-2019 2:41pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Remember this order allows a few extra meters (168m approx) over current 2x4 29000 (163m) and there will be 8 car units (i.e. two less driver cabs). 1 toilet per 4 car won't take up much room.

Edit - Both the 4 car and 8 car units should be through units like Thameslink class 700.

That is all great, but a toilet is still taking up room which could be used for more passengers.

And remember, I assume the toilet will need to be wheelchair accessible, so they will be on the large size.

dowlingm · 05-06-2019 5:58pm

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Honestly I don’t think we can afford to have toilets I can’t see platforms being lengthened again so 8 car trains is the max we’re gonna have so we need to maximize the amount each train can fit. The population isn’t gonna get any smaller so if you think it’s bad now just wait til you see it in 10 years.

Wouldn't have to worry about extending 8 car trains if IE would just run 8 car trains all the times it's supposed to be doing so

(Also get 3 tracking going on the Northern Line so there can be more actual trains instead of Newry commuter/Enterprise/DART/Tara Mines all competing for the same rails)

Jamie2k9 · 06-06-2019 11:20am

bk wrote: »

That is all great, but a toilet is still taking up room which could be used for more passengers.

And remember, I assume the toilet will need to be wheelchair accessible, so they will be on the large size.

You are over thinking it. When Maynooth is electrified I would expect a typical freq of 20 mins and there will be higher capacity on trains and improved frequency.

Passengers who keep bags on there back take up more room on a train than an accessible toilet would.

goingnowhere · 06-06-2019 1:43pm

Since it will now be 4 coach and 8 coach fixed sets, there will be less space wasted on cabs and you can stand in between coaches so the net floor space will be bigger. You won't have the chunk of floor space in each coach for the exhaust either

bk · 06-06-2019 2:08pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You are over thinking it. When Maynooth is electrified I would expect a typical freq of 20 mins and there will be higher capacity on trains and improved frequency.

Passengers who keep bags on there back take up more room on a train than an accessible toilet would.

It is not over thinking it to say that Irish Rail should have toilets at every station!

Really a very simple solution to the issue.

goingnowhere wrote: »

Since it will now be 4 coach and 8 coach fixed sets, there will be less space wasted on cabs and you can stand in between coaches so the net floor space will be bigger. You won't have the chunk of floor space in each coach for the exhaust either

I understand and that is great, but you are still giving up even more passenger space for a toilet that isn't necessary on such relatively short journeys and would be better handled with a toilet at the station.

Jamie2k9 · 06-06-2019 9:59pm

bk wrote: »

It is not over thinking it to say that Irish Rail should have toilets at every station!

Really a very simple solution to the issue.

I understand and that is great, but you are still giving up even more passenger space for a toilet that isn't necessary on such relatively short journeys and would be better handled with a toilet at the station.

You really are, 2900 today have one toilet per 4 coach. There are every few 2900 where you couldn't board today and the new units should be slightly larger and offer greater frequency.

Toilets in stations will cost money to construct and maintain plus attract significant anti social behavior. A train will only require tanks to be opened once a week.

Ireland trains · 06-06-2019 10:37pm

Or the best of both worlds where if there is 2 specs of trains,
* short journeys (eg. Docklands-hazelhatch) with mainly standing room.
* long distance commuting (eg longford,portlaiose and greystones-drogheda) with more, comfortable seats and toilets (not on 8 car sets).
Of course it would add complexity.

L1011 · 06-06-2019 10:49pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

You really are, 2900 today have one toilet per 4 coach. There are every few 2900 where you couldn't board today and the new units should be slightly larger and offer greater frequency.

Toilets in stations will cost money to construct and maintain plus attract significant anti social behavior. A train will only require tanks to be opened once a week.

29000 have one accessible *and* one non accessible per 4 car set. Non accessible still uses the space of 7 seats albeit provides a standing area in some of that space

The Dutch ended up retrofitting toilets to the sprinters after assuming they didn't need them.

bk · 07-06-2019 2:01pm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Toilets in stations will cost money to construct and maintain plus attract significant anti social behavior. A train will only require tanks to be opened once a week.

Install those Japanese style auto-cleaning toilets that you pay to use. Like they have at some beaches around Dublin.

No construction needed, they clean themselves, minimum maintenance, anti-social behaviour not really possible and they pay for themselves.

loyatemu · 07-06-2019 2:50pm

bk wrote: »

Install those Japanese style auto-cleaning toilets that you pay to use. Like they have at some beaches around Dublin.

No construction needed, they clean themselves, minimum maintenance, anti-social behaviour not really possible and they pay for themselves.

if they accepted LEAP this wouldn't be a bad idea.

Del.Monte · 07-06-2019 7:29pm

bk wrote: »

Install those Japanese style auto-cleaning toilets that you pay to use. Like they have at some beaches around Dublin.

No construction needed, they clean themselves, minimum maintenance, anti-social behaviour not really possible and they pay for themselves.

I think that the paying for themselves thing is nonsense as they have been removed all over the place on cost grounds.

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/flushed-away-the-superloo-where-no-one-wanted-to-go-1.754839

Jamie2k9 · 08-06-2019 5:08pm

L1011 wrote: »

29000 have one accessible *and* one non accessible per 4 car set. Non accessible still uses the space of 7 seats albeit provides a standing area in some of that space

The Dutch ended up retrofitting toilets to the sprinters after assuming they didn't need them.

Well these sets only need one so I cannot see IE prepared to provide two.

IE 222 · 08-06-2019 5:44pm

A toilet isn't going to make a drastic difference in the overall capacity. They should look into changing to side bench seating along the window and removing gangways. Reserve some space behind the driver cabs for wheelchairs, prams, bikes, expecting mothers ect.

Would it be possible and cost effective to install a driver operated wheelchair ramp obviously with some sort of communication point so the user can inform the driver they want to get off.

Stephen15 · 08-06-2019 6:29pm

IE 222 wrote: »

A toilet isn't going to make a drastic difference in the overall capacity. They should look into changing to side bench seating along the window and removing gangways. Reserve some space behind the driver cabs for wheelchairs, prams, bikes, expecting mothers ect.

Would it be possible and cost effective to install a driver operated wheelchair ramp obviously with some sort of communication point so the user can inform the driver they want to get off.

Not a drastic difference but it's not nessecary on short distance trains. By adding a toilet your removing wheelchair, bike and pram space.

IE 222 · 08-06-2019 7:05pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Not a drastic difference but it's not nessecary on short distance trains. By adding a toilet your removing wheelchair, bike and pram space.

Current trains can cater for wheelchair, bikes, prams and even luggage as well as a toilet. Given the expansion of these services and the aim of spreading the service to a wider community will likely see longer journeys been made on these trains than your regular Dart hop. A toilet is not going to make much difference and should be seen as a benefit to encourage more people to use the service. As I mentioned better seating arrangements and removing gangways will create more space.

The extra frequencies and longer train lengths with 10 toilets per set would still provide more capacity to what's currently been offered.

IE 222 · 08-06-2019 7:16pm

They should also ensure sets can be increased or decreased in size should the need arise. It would be beneficial if 6 car sets can be made up by taking 2 cars off an 8 piece and added to a 4 piece.

devnull · 08-06-2019 7:20pm

IE 222 wrote: »

The extra frequencies and longer train lengths with 10 toilets per set would still provide more capacity to what's currently been offered.

For a four car set on the longer new DART lines that replace 29k stock there might be an argument for a disabled toilet and a standard one for a four car set but that's about it if you ask me. Might not be in harm in having a uniform fleet for them to operate on other services though.

They should also ensure sets can be increased or decreased in size should the need arise. It would be beneficial if 6 car sets can be made up by taking 2 cars off an 8 piece and added to a 4 piece.

Far too much trouble for that, especially in a battery operated train, the cost and hassle of doing this and the problems it would cause would not be worth it, best to go to 4 car units.

IE 222 · 08-06-2019 10:05pm

devnull wrote: »

For a four car set on the longer new DART lines that replace 29k stock there might be an argument for a disabled toilet and a standard one for a four car set but that's about it if you ask me. Might not be in harm in having a uniform fleet for them to operate on other services though.

Far too much trouble for that, especially in a battery operated train, the cost and hassle of doing this and the problems it would cause would not be worth it, best to go to 4 car units.

Better off having a uniform fleet and should OHLE be extended in the future or the battery range allows for further reach it makes sense to have toilets installed.

These trains will serve the whole Dublin commuter and regional belt and should be able to cater for longer journeys by providing a toilet. A typical Dart commute is 20- 30 mins but once the upgrades are completed this will increase.

I think it would be worth exploring and paying a bit more for the option. It would be wise to have the ability to form anything from 4-10 car lengths in service. We are currently witnessing issues around capacity and flexibility is key especially on the commuter routes.

bk · 10-06-2019 11:16am

IE 222 wrote: »

Reserve some space behind the driver cabs for wheelchairs, prams, bikes, expecting mothers ect.

Would it be possible and cost effective to install a driver operated wheelchair ramp obviously with some sort of communication point so the user can inform the driver they want to get off.

I agree completely.

Irish Rails accessibility is pretty terrible IMO. A wheelchair user needs to call ahead 4 hours to use a train! Not good enough. Look at Germany where train drivers carry a ramp and use it when needed, much better.

And don't get me started about how often the rubbish lifts are broken and the complete lack of information. My back is still broken from having to carry a 2 year old + pram up and down the stairs in Clontarf because the lifts were out with no notification!

Qrt · 10-06-2019 2:56pm

Does anyone know why self opening ramps aren’t a thing on trains? They seem to work fine on buses...

Stephen15 · 10-06-2019 5:01pm

Qrt wrote: »

Does anyone know why self opening ramps aren’t a thing on trains? They seem to work fine on buses...

What if the person is paralysed from the neck down?

Qrt · 10-06-2019 5:11pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

What if the person is paralysed from the neck down?

I mean driver-operated ones, like how a bus driver sees someone in a wheelchair and knows to deploy the ramp.

Stephen15 · 10-06-2019 5:42pm

Qrt wrote: »

I mean driver-operated ones, like how a bus driver sees someone in a wheelchair and knows to deploy the ramp.

Potentially they could be installed but there could be some added cost as platforms could have to be realigned to allow a ramp to be deployed and there's also the issue that the driver would probably have to be let known in advance that a wheelchair user wishes to board.

Of course the best situation would be if the new trains bought had doors that were level with the edge of platform meaning wheelchair users could board without the need for a ramp like the Luas and work was done to make sure all platforms were the same height.

L1011 · 10-06-2019 5:45pm

That also needs straight platform edges which would require moving many stations entirely. So completely unfeasible

Stephen15 · 10-06-2019 5:51pm

L1011 wrote: »

That also needs straight platform edges which would require moving many stations entirely. So completely unfeasible

Fair enough but they could do it with some stations where feasible and mark them on the map.

Jamie2k9 · 10-06-2019 5:59pm

Its not possible because:

Storing a ramp under the step has no room and a fold up underneath isn't possible because platform would stop it opening.

Storing a ramp inside (like DB) isn't possible because its to high and would never reach the ground.

There is the platform argument plus you would do well to find a platform to be the exact same level the next one.

kc56 · 10-06-2019 11:28pm

Aligning steps with the platform like on the Luas isn't feasible. There must be enough clearance for a train passing at 100mph with no possibility of contact being made. Allowance must be made for swaying and track movements. Close alignments might be possible on single use commuter lines such as metros where retractible step could be used.

Compared to the Continent, accessibility here is much better. Many mainline continental platforms are quite low and there are 3-4 steps up to the carriages. A ramp would not be at all feasible.

Markcheese · 11-06-2019 7:27am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Its not possible because:

Storing a ramp under the step has no room and a fold up underneath isn't possible because platform would stop it opening.

Storing a ramp inside (like DB) isn't possible because its to high and would never reach the ground.

There is the platform argument plus you would do well to find a platform to be the exact same level the next one.

Is there a reason why the platforms are all different heights? Would have thought they would have a standard spec, (the step up to the train at Midleton is fairly high... And that's not a historical issue)

Jamie2k9 · 11-06-2019 9:26am

Markcheese wrote: »

Is there a reason why the platforms are all different heights? Would have thought they would have a standard spec, (the step up to the train at Midleton is fairly high... And that's not a historical issue)

Many reasons different people building, ground subsidence etc. Those who travel on Luas will notice the difference as well.

They work within certain limits as all rolling stock will be slightly different.

bk · 11-06-2019 10:56am

In Lisbon they have permanent wheelchair ramps built into the platforms, very handy for booth wheelchair users and buggy users:

In Germany and other countries, the wheelchair ramp is simply carried in the drivers cabin. Wheelchair users wait in a designated location near the front of the train, if a driver sees a wheelchair user, the driver gets out and uses the ramp, like this:

See at 1:30mins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43RagxfjchM

It isn't rocket science.

Markcheese · 11-06-2019 11:50am

bk wrote: »

In Lisbon they have permanent wheelchair ramps built into the platforms, very handy for booth wheelchair users and buggy users:

In Germany and other countries, the wheelchair ramp is simply carried in the drivers cabin. Wheelchair users wait in a designated location near the front of the train, if a driver sees a wheelchair user, the driver gets out and uses the ramp, like this:

See at 1:30mins:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43RagxfjchM

It isn't rocket science.

As you say, just having a wheelchair bay at the front of the platform ( and ramp at that door) , nearest the driver is probably the simplist, effective, cheapest, and immediate change that IE could make..

loyatemu · 11-06-2019 11:57am

Markcheese wrote: »

As you say, just having a wheelchair bay at the front of the platform ( and ramp at that door) , nearest the driver is probably the simplist, effective, cheapest, and immediate change that IE could make..

as mentioned in previous posts, Irish Rails network is very non-standardised. The trains are all different lengths, have slightly different door-heights, stop in different places on the platform, many of the platforms are curved which results in large gaps at the doors etc.

Irish Rail Issue Tender for 600 Electric / Battery Carriages

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