Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

Kermit.de.frog · 25-02-2020 1:22am

smurgen wrote: »

The Kinahans have thrived while the SCC has existed.at least try to use examples that supports your argument!

Jurors have not been required - that is the point.

The SCC exists to protect people like you and me from having to carry out jury duties against the most dangerous gangland leaders this country has produced who think nothing of taking lives.

None of you would want to sit on such juries.

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 1:25am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

People are all high and moral until it impacts on them.

What about witnesses, barrister and judges, are they immune from intimidation?

dxhound2005 · 25-02-2020 1:30am

jm08 wrote: »

From what I understand the SSC legally is designed for terrorist activity, not for crime activity. What most say (including Drew Harris) is that it needs to be reviewed and reformed to maybe cater for this gangland activity.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/special_criminal_court.html

The Special Criminal Court only deals with criminal cases. It hears cases about paramilitary, subversive and organised crimes, but much of its workload now involves organised crime cases.

Any case that is not on the list of scheduled offences above can be heard in the Special Criminal Court, if the DPP believes the ordinary courts would be inadequate to secure the administration of justice and the preservation of public peace

Paramilitaries are involved in organised crime. That was part of what the Commissioner said.

smurgen · 25-02-2020 1:31am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Jurors have not been required - that is the point.

The SCC exists to protect people like you and me from having to carry out jury duties against the most dangerous gangland leaders this country has produced who think nothing of taking lives.

None of you would want to sit on such juries.

My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

Kermit.de.frog · 25-02-2020 1:33am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What about witnesses, barrister and judges, are they immune from intimidation?

You are trying to pull up everything to support a defunct argument.

You know full well they are different and know and understand the risks.

Jurors are selected randomly.

I hold my point that you would never want to sit on such a jury and that you would, correctly, be terrified to do so.

Easy to talk nonsense until it's you affected.

Like I say your tune would change right quick if you got that letter from the court service.

dxhound2005 · 25-02-2020 1:34am

smurgen wrote: »

My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

Norway?

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/01/20/norway-to-drop-jury-system-on-appeal/

Kermit.de.frog · 25-02-2020 1:35am

smurgen wrote: »

My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

Do you trust the gardai to protect you?

There was a garda on RTE just tonight saying they don't have enough resources to police the country.

They can't protect themselves. They can't even stop a bunch of travellers having a road race ffs.

Get real.

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 1:39am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You are trying to pull up everything to support a defunct argument.

You know full well they are different and know and understand the risks.

Jurors are selected randomly.

I hold my point that you would never want to sit on such a jury and that you would, correctly, be terrified to do so.

Easy to talk nonsense until it's you affected.

Like I say your tune would change right quick if you got that letter from the court service.

I didn't 'want' to sit on the two juries I was called for, but I did. When I did on one of the trials, we were all briefed about the possibility of intimidation or contact from acquaintances of the accused. All but one of us proceeded.

You speak for yourself here please.

Yurt2 · 25-02-2020 1:40am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Norway?

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/01/20/norway-to-drop-jury-system-on-appeal/

Did you even read that? There's a lay majority on the panel.

jm08 · 25-02-2020 1:58am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/justice/courts_system/special_criminal_court.html

The Special Criminal Court only deals with criminal cases. It hears cases about paramilitary, subversive and organised crimes, but much of its workload now involves organised crime cases.

Any case that is not on the list of scheduled offences above can be heard in the Special Criminal Court, if the DPP believes the ordinary courts would be inadequate to secure the administration of justice and the preservation of public peace

Paramilitaries are involved in organised crime. That was part of what the Commissioner said.

I think the highlighted bit is the problem with most of the those who are criticising it. What most say is that it needs to be reviewed. Too much power in the hands of the DPP.

This article covers the views of the organisations that think it needs to be reviewed. Interesting that Mary Robinson has been a strong critic of it since its inception.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ge16-election-2016-ireland-fact-check-special-criminal-court-2594422-Feb2016/

careless sherpa · 25-02-2020 1:59am

Mortelaro wrote: »

It's just an observation, is there any particular reason,is it because the IRA army council dont officially recognise the 26 counties as a country so it's not in order for Sinn Féin representatives to refer to it as anything other than 'the state'?

I would think that a lot if people would consider this 26 county state and the 6 in the north of the country to be temporary entities. Both were conceived as being only a temporary solution

quokula · 25-02-2020 2:33am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't 'want' to sit on the two juries I was called for, but I did. When I did on one of the trials, we were all briefed about the possibility of intimidation or contact from acquaintances of the accused. All but one of us proceeded.

You speak for yourself here please.

I know you want to live in a shinner utopia where witness intimidation is just a fact of life we should all accept, but most people aren’t so blasé about such thuggery.

jimmycrackcorm · 25-02-2020 2:49am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

There are bound to be moles. In the old days the IRA was allowed to kill them. They can't do that any more.

It's not that many years (14) since Denis Donaldson was executed for betraying Sinn Fein.
They don't take too kindly to anyone who doesn't toe the line.
Apparently the hit job was outsourced to the Real IRA.

jimmycrackcorm · 25-02-2020 2:53am

smurgen wrote: »

The Kinahans have thrived while the SCC has existed.at least try to use examples that supports your argument!

The Dundon witness intimidation case just exemplifies the need for the SCC.

Yurt2 · 25-02-2020 3:42am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The Dundon witness intimidation case just exemplifies the need for the SCC.

You're conflating witnesses with a jury. Witnesses are still required for conviction.

Juries can be anonymised and protected in a way that is far more difficult for witnesses.

maccored · 25-02-2020 4:06am

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

It's not that many years (14) since Denis Donaldson was executed for betraying Sinn Fein.
They don't take too kindly to anyone who doesn't toe the line.
Apparently the hit job was outsourced to the Real IRA.

or mi5 - covering their own tracks maybe?

Kermit.de.frog · 25-02-2020 4:32am

Yurt! wrote: »

You're conflating witnesses with a jury. Witnesses are still required for conviction.

Juries can be anonymised and protected in a way that is far more difficult for witnesses.

Again not like with like. A witness has a choice and upon choosing they know the risks.

In terms of hiding jurors - a juror is still going to be nervous, is still under threat.

The SCC is there to avoid that.

Yurt2 · 25-02-2020 4:59am

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Again not like with like. A witness has a choice and upon choosing they know the risks.

In terms of hiding jurors - a juror is still going to be nervous, is still under threat.

The SCC is there to avoid that.

You think that witnesses can ignore subpeonas willy nilly?

Also, know the history of the SCC. It was originally formed during the emergency, not to protect witnesses, but rather to ensure people with republican sympathies wouldn't be on juries (perhaps a valid concern at the time where Irish political life was far more partisan than it is now but a nonsense in the 21st century). It was resurrected reflexively because of similar sentiments.

smurgen · 25-02-2020 8:27am

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Norway?

https://www.newsinenglish.no/2017/01/20/norway-to-drop-jury-system-on-appeal/

Did ya read your own link bud?morto!

25-02-2020 8:46am

smurgen wrote: »

My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

Finland don't use juries. Neither do south Africa
Norway & Sweden both use judges & lay judges, maybe 2 or 3 lay judges. No juries.

Edit, no Mexico don't use the jury system either.

The countries using juries usually tend to be common law countries, most Commonwealth countries. All based on the original English system.

25-02-2020 8:49am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What about witnesses, barrister and judges, are they immune from intimidation?

No, & judges sitting in the SCC are granted protection.

dxhound2005 · 25-02-2020 9:14am

smurgen wrote: »

Did ya read your own link bud?morto!

I did, and I understood it. You picked the wrong list of countries.

McMurphy · 25-02-2020 9:58am

Apparently the public meeting in Cork last night was a roaring success - standing room only over a thousand in attendance despite the seating plan designed for 500 according to Newstalks Barry White, who thinks FF/FG will be quite envious of what the shinners engineered.

Half tempted to go along to liberty hall this evening for curiosity more than anything else.

https://twitter.com/sinnfeinireland/status/1232031882138849282?s=19

Leo would better have more slurs in the reserve tank, because the surge of the shinners is continuing.

They're playing a blinder - he's a dead duck leader now, I wouldn't be surprised to see a heave against him soon, he's stumbling from one PR disaster to another. The only problem is the lack of any obvious credible alternative to replace him .

Niallof9 · 25-02-2020 10:05am

smurgen wrote: »

My god backwards countries like Switzerland Norway the Netherlands and Finland all of which use juries must be absolutely over run by drug gangs. Their poor citizens are probably fleeing in droves. If only they got rid of juries like countries like Mexico Columbia and South Africa.

You clearly haven't a clue what you are talking about: The Netherlands justice system? is largely based on that of France: there is no jury system and the state rather than the individual initiates legal proceedings.

You do know about the crime in those last three countries right?

Ireland has very little scope for witness protection, jury protection etc.

The IRA dragged mothers out of bed and killed them in the middle of the night. They would have had no problem killing/intimidating jurors.

Similar to the gangland we have today, where the Kinahan are described as narco terrorists with huge sway and influence.

Niallof9 · 25-02-2020 10:07am

McMurphy wrote: »

Apparently the public meeting in Cork last night was a roaring success - standing room only over a thousand in attendance despite the seating plan designed for 500 according to Newstalks Barry White, who thinks FF/FG will be quite envious of what the shinners engineered.

Half tempted to go along to liberty hall this evening for curiosity more than anything else.

https://twitter.com/sinnfeinireland/status/1232031882138849282?s=19

Leo would better have more slurs in the reserve tank, because the surge of the shinners is continuing.

They're playing a blinder - he's a dead duck leader now, I wouldn't be surprised to see a heave against him soon, he's stumbling from one PR disaster to another. The only problem is the lack of any obvious credible alternative to replace him .

By going to the rally you are supporting them. Is this one of those i didn't vote for SF but...sure. We know you did. Fair enough

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 10:21am

Niallof9 wrote: »

By going to the rally you are supporting them.

I presume they don't brand you or take a pound of flesh. Relax Niall. nobody is gonna bite you if you go along for a listen.

Runaways · 25-02-2020 10:34am

Sinn Fein our on the road meeting the electorate taking questions from those in attendance on policy and outcomes.

FF/FG? Sitting in the Dáil arguing over who gets to be Taoiseach.

This is going to hurt FFFG in a big way in a second election. Genius move and perfectly timed by SF

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 10:42am

Runaways wrote: »

Sinn Fein our on the road meeting the electorate taking questions from those in attendance on policy and outcomes.

FF/FG? Sitting in the Dáil arguing over who gets to be Taoiseach.

This is going to hurt FFFG in a big way in a second election. Genius move and perfectly timed by SF

Sometimes it is glaringly obvious that there is nobody in FG to say, 'Just say nothing Leo, ignore it'. Again and again he is allowed take to the airwaves and he just constantly makes things worse.

Runaways · 25-02-2020 10:45am

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Sometimes it is glaringly obvious that there is nobody in FG to say, 'Just say nothing Leo, ignore it'. Again and again he is allowed take to the airwaves and he just constantly makes things worse.

He’s making all these petulant childish comments and I’m wondering who does he want to hear this? Like who is the message for? Because it’s backfiring wildly and making him look like a spoiled entitled petulant child.

McMurphy · 25-02-2020 10:48am

Niallof9 wrote: »

By going to the rally you are supporting them. Is this one of those i didn't vote for SF but...sure. We know you did. Fair enough

Oh I gave SF a number one this time out, have done so in the past too, not religiously though, I've voted socdems in the past, also voted FF before - blindly following a party no matter what is part of why the country is where it is.

What s strange post tbh.

BluePlanet · 25-02-2020 10:52am

McMurphy wrote: »

Leo would better have more slurs in the reserve tank, because the surge of the shinners is continuing.

They're playing a blinder - he's a dead duck leader now, I wouldn't be surprised to see a heave against him soon, he's stumbling from one PR disaster to another. The only problem is the lack of any obvious credible alternative to replace him .

So true.
Leo is showing some very poor political acumen.
All SF had to do is hold a polite and well mannered meeting and Leo now looks like Chicken Little.

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 10:54am

I don't think Michael Martin said anything about the meetings...did he?

Is he finally copping on?

Mortelaro · 25-02-2020 11:26am

McMurphy wrote: »

What s strange post tbh.

It's not strange at all
A regular or a new reg fully supporting a party who says they never voted for them before generally isnt believed by regulars of opposing opinions
The 'I never voted for x or y before' is very see through

careless sherpa · 25-02-2020 11:45am

McMurphy wrote: »

Apparently the public meeting in Cork last night was a roaring success - standing room only over a thousand in attendance despite the seating plan designed for 500 according to Newstalks Barry White, who thinks FF/FG will be quite envious of what the shinners engineered.

Half tempted to go along to liberty hall this evening for curiosity more than anything else.

https://twitter.com/sinnfeinireland/status/1232031882138849282?s=19

Leo would better have more slurs in the reserve tank, because the surge of the shinners is continuing.

They're playing a blinder - he's a dead duck leader now, I wouldn't be surprised to see a heave against him soon, he's stumbling from one PR disaster to another. The only problem is the lack of any obvious credible alternative to replace him .

That's clearly not true. Charlie Flanagan is his natural replacement.

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 11:47am

careless sherpa wrote: »

That's clearly not true. Charlie Flanagan is his natural replacement.

Bit a young blood maybe, that Donovan lad would be good!

blanch152 · 25-02-2020 11:52am

Mortelaro wrote: »

It's not strange at all
A regular or a new reg fully supporting a party who says they never voted for them before generally isnt believed by regulars of opposing opinions
The 'I never voted for x or y before' is very see through

We always get a few of those around election time.

Then they disappear, possibly returning in new guises. Some of the regular posters here that were voting Sinn Fein for the first time seem to have completely disappeared. It happened in 2016 when we had that For Reals fellow who was mad into conspiracy theories about FF and FG elites, and then we never heard from him again. He wasn't the only one and they just go puff and disappear.

McMurphy · 25-02-2020 11:54am

blanch152 wrote: »

We always get a few of those around election time.

Then they disappear, possibly returning in new guises. Some of the regular posters here that were voting Sinn Fein for the first time seem to have completely disappeared. It happened in 2016 when we had that For Reals fellow who was mad into conspiracy theories about FF and FG elites, and then we never heard from him again. He wasn't the only one and they just go puff and disappear.

This is the kettle calling the pot black arse, never seen a green voter so upset about an election, even though their party done extremely well.

EmmetSpiceland · 25-02-2020 12:02pm

McMurphy wrote: »

This is the kettle calling the pot black arse, never seen a green voter so upset about an election, even though their party done extremely well.

*did

christy c · 25-02-2020 12:04pm

McMurphy wrote: »

They're playing a blinder

Playing a blinder from a party political point of view? Yes, they seem to be. However coming up with brain dead pension proposals, wanting to slash the tax base, not very intelligent tax increase proposals, would indicate they are not playing a blinder.

I'm still unsure whether it would be best to have them in government so we can get it out of our system, or keep them ranting in the opposition benches. The former might be best.

blanch152 · 25-02-2020 12:10pm

McMurphy wrote: »

This is the kettle calling the pot black arse, never seen a green voter so upset about an election, even though their party done extremely well.

I am not in the least bit upset about the election. The Greens will be in government, together with FF and FG. It will be a stable government lasting four or five years and the real issue of climate change will be addressed properly for the first time.

Sinn Fein will organise their rallies and protests ala 1930s Germany demanding to be let into power, but hopefully our country is too mature to listen to such childish antics.

Runaways · 25-02-2020 12:11pm

Heard Sean o rourke last week accuse a FF TD of FF just doing a copy and paste of SFs policies. I was away so missed all the fun but is it true?

quokula · 25-02-2020 12:14pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Sinn Fein will organise their rallies and protests ala 1930s Germany demanding to be let into power, but hopefully our country is too mature to listen to such childish antics.

I see they've started rebranding their rallies as meetings as it's become obvious that most decent ordinary people find what they're doing absolutely stomach churning. Probably a consequence of their failure to draw large enough crowds to give Mary Lou the full Trumpian rally she wanted too.

blanch152 · 25-02-2020 12:18pm

quokula wrote: »

I see they've started rebranding their rallies as meetings as it's become obvious that most decent ordinary people find what they're doing absolutely stomach churning. Probably a consequence of their failure to draw large enough crowds to give Mary Lou the full Trumpian rally she wanted too.

They were hoping for crowds outside unable to get in, cheering and shouting and waving flags and banners. They didn't get it.

Runaways · 25-02-2020 12:20pm

blanch152 wrote: »

They were hoping for crowds outside unable to get in, cheering and shouting and waving flags and banners. They didn't get it.

Ehhh they had a meeting with q&as. Not a rally.
See attached. Loads of middle aged people in a packed nice hotel room

The below is an actual rally. Big difference

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 12:37pm

blanch152 wrote: »

They were hoping for crowds outside unable to get in, cheering and shouting and waving flags and banners. They didn't get it.

That well known Shinner Paschal Sheehy from RTE tweeted last night that 372 chairs had been set out and they then got swamped as over 1000 turned up.

Just keep providing the gold blanch, you have no idea how enjoyable you are right now.

https://twitter.com/PaschalSheehy/status/1232042232947056640

Just on the subject of journalists tweeting from the hotel...Fiach Kelly from the Irish Times was also impressed and 'apologised' to his twitter followers because he couldn't see a hint of anythin 'intimidating or bullying'.

Somebody asked him if he would write that in the Irish Times column today (or rather..'would you be let write that').
The tweeter was back on Fiach's account this morning saying...'I see you weren't allowed say that in your column'

blanch152 · 25-02-2020 12:41pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

That well known Shinner Paschal Sheehy from RTE tweeted last night that 372 chairs had been set out and they then got swamped as over 1000 turned up.

Just keep providing the gold blanch, you have no idea how enjoyable you are right now.

https://twitter.com/PaschalSheehy/status/1232042232947056640

Just on the subject of journalists tweeting from the hotel...Fiach Kelly from the Irish Times was also impressed and 'apologised' to his twitter followers because he couldn't see a hint of anythin 'intimidating or bullying'.

Somebody asked him if he would write that in the Irish Times column today (or rather..'would you be let write that').
The tweeter was back on Fiach's account this morning saying...'I see you weren't allowed say that in your column'

I could get 372 to a public meeting. In fact, I was at several mundane gatherings in the last week that attracted a lot more than 372.

Deliberately shooting low to give the impression of a huge crowd is a really old propaganda trick. Sinn Fein know how to pick them.

FrancieBrady · 25-02-2020 12:45pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I could get 372 to a public meeting. In fact, I was at several mundane gatherings in the last week that attracted a lot more than 372.

Deliberately shooting low to give the impression of a huge crowd is a really old propaganda trick. Sinn Fein know how to pick them.

:D:D

jm08 · 25-02-2020 1:00pm

Lise Hand has a good account of the 'Rally' in the Journal.

https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/sinn-fein-rally-5020656-Feb2020/

McMurphy · 25-02-2020 1:31pm

FrancieBrady wrote: »

:D:D

Blast them shinners, public meetings are a sign of the end of our democracy.

smurgen · 25-02-2020 1:35pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I could get 372 to a public meeting. In fact, I was at several mundane gatherings in the last week that attracted a lot more than 372.

Deliberately shooting low to give the impression of a huge crowd is a really old propaganda trick. Sinn Fein know how to pick them.

Hahahaha the David Brent of boards!
Also counsellor Ken O'Flynn former FF and now independent was standing in front of me last night. In fact I spotted a few councillors from other parties.

Gardaí: Provo Army Council oversees PIRA & SF

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