New Worldwide Handicap System

blue note · 03-01-2020 12:00pm

If they want to slope earrings to be accurate they'll have to adjust based on how members do when they play away courses and on how away players do at their course. I don't think that's planned though. Seems to be based on length, hazards at landing areas, green speed, etc. Sounds like an okay starting point, but incomplete.

gypsy79 · 03-01-2020 12:02pm

blue note wrote: »

If they want to slope earrings to be accurate they'll have to adjust based on how members do when they play away courses and on how away players do at their course. I don't think that's planned though. Seems to be based on length, hazards at landing areas, green speed, etc. Sounds like an okay starting point, but incomplete.

Agree which results in people having advantages at opens and then conversely affecting their chances on home course

blue note · 03-01-2020 12:05pm

Well if away players do better than home players in opens, then surely the home club handicaps are too low? Especially if it's the case that players from that club perform above average in away opens themselves. But is that being looked at?

gypsy79 · 03-01-2020 12:21pm

blue note wrote: »

Well if away players do better than home players in opens, then surely the home club handicaps are too low? Especially if it's the case that players from that club perform above average in away opens themselves. But is that being looked at?

No this could happen if the slopes do not correctly represent the course difficulty

Seve OB · 03-01-2020 6:25pm

gypsy79 wrote: »

As a member at Elmgreen I am very interested in seeing these slopes. Because Elmgreen is far from easy. But it’s difficulty is very hard to measure in any easy way

I probably have a higher percentage of cuts at away opens

My form in boards comps unfortunately hasn’t backed this up

its been a few years since i've played it, but i seem to recall that elm green is actually not that difficult a course. why do you think it is far from easy?

Seve OB · 03-01-2020 6:33pm

blue note wrote: »

If they want to slope earrings to be accurate they'll have to adjust based on how members do when they play away courses and on how away players do at their course. I don't think that's planned though. Seems to be based on length, hazards at landing areas, green speed, etc. Sounds like an okay starting point, but incomplete.

i think that you are mixed up.
what a slope rating does is adjust a course based on how a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer would play the course, and yes all those points you make contribute towards the calculation.
but when members play either home of away, their scores are not relevant to the slope.

its complicated, but i suspect once in operation, will make more sense to us all.

blue note · 03-01-2020 7:18pm

Seve OB wrote: »

i think that you are mixed up.
what a slope rating does is adjust a course based on how a scratch golfer and a bogey golfer would play the course, and yes all those points you make contribute towards the calculation.
but when members play either home of away, their scores are not relevant to the slope.

its complicated, but i suspect once in operation, will make more sense to us all.

My understanding of how the slope rating is calculated is that it will consider factors like hazards at landing areas, length, green speed, etc and assign a difficulty (slope rating) based on all those factors.

I expect whatever criteria is applied it will throw up anomalies. Courses rated as easy that are anything but and vice versa. The result of these will be that members have handicaps that are higher than they should be and these players you would expect to perform better than average in open comps. And the reverse would obviously also be true.

So what I think the system should consider, is if the members of a particular club perform better than average in away comps and away players perform below average in opens in that club, then there must be factors not captured by the rating system that make a particular course more challenging or less challenging. But I don't believe it does this? So are there provisions in the system to deal with anomalies?

Mantis Toboggan · 03-01-2020 11:54pm

I've read a bit on this and the whole thing leaves me baffled.

Very confused. Think this could take a few years to be implemented correctly. Slope ratings will be controversial and will lead to lots changing clubs.

Snotty · 04-01-2020 1:38am

No reason to believe the slope can't be changes, the club can apply to get the slope reviewed when there is changes made to the course but I'm sure it could get a review if the committee thinks that the slope is incorrect and putting its members at a disadvantage.

I don't envy the club handicap and competition secretary/committee when this new system comes in, there is going to be some amount of complaints, I worked out mine and got a shock.

I play a fairly wide but very long links course par73 slope is going to be near 130, there is another local parkland course too, very short tree lined par68, it is an easy course, slope won't be above 113, plenty of our members struggle on it due to the trees but it's slope is low, when our members find out that they are a, example, 15 handicap at home but only a 12 handicap at this course, its going to be fun.

04-01-2020 2:22am

Snotty wrote: »

I play a fairly wide but very long links course par73 slope is going to be near 130, there is another local parkland course too, very short tree lined par68, it is an easy course, slope won't be above 113, plenty of our members struggle on it due to the trees but it's slope is low, when our members find out that they are a, example, 15 handicap at home but only a 12 handicap at this course, its going to be fun.

If its an easy course how are they struggling on it?

If its genuinely an easier course then it should have different handicap ratings under the new system. That would only be fair.

Rikand · 04-01-2020 2:35am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

If its an easy course how are they struggling on it?

If its genuinely an easier course then it should have different handicap ratings under the new system. That would only be fair.

Seems fairly obvious. The links golfer members are long hitters and wild off the tee. Suitable for their home course but not suitable for the very tight short track up the road as they are always driving it into trouble

blue note · 04-01-2020 9:45am

Snotty wrote: »

No reason to believe the slope can't be changes, the club can apply to get the slope reviewed when there is changes made to the course but I'm sure it could get a review if the committee thinks that the slope is incorrect and putting its members at a disadvantage.

I don't envy the club handicap and competition secretary/committee when this new system comes in, there is going to be some amount of complaints, I worked out mine and got a shock.

I play a fairly wide but very long links course par73 slope is going to be near 130, there is another local parkland course too, very short tree lined par68, it is an easy course, slope won't be above 113, plenty of our members struggle on it due to the trees but it's slope is low, when our members find out that they are a, example, 15 handicap at home but only a 12 handicap at this course, its going to be fun.

I've 2 concerns with that.

Firstly, are we going to be relying in clubs to request reviews of the ratings? Because I would suspect that every course will want to be rated difficult as a matter of pride. So if a course is rated harder than it actually is, then I wouldn't expect a club to query it.

Secondly, would they just be reassessed using the same criteria? In which case you're checking if they were assessed correctly the first time as opposed to checking if the course is more or less difficult based on something the assessment criteria doesn't look at.

prawnsambo · 04-01-2020 11:15am

blue note wrote: »

I've 2 concerns with that.

Firstly, are we going to be relying in clubs to request reviews of the ratings? Because I would suspect that every course will want to be rated difficult as a matter of pride. So if a course is rated harder than it actually is, then I wouldn't expect a club to query it.

Secondly, would they just be reassessed using the same criteria? In which case you're checking if they were assessed correctly the first time as opposed to checking if the course is more or less difficult based on something the assessment criteria doesn't look at.

Slope rating is based on the bogey golfer. So you're looking at a player who won't reach the green in regulation unless it's a shorter par 4 or 5. And whether there are hazards that come into play for those golfers. And that rating affects members as much as visitors, so I'm not sure why a course would want to be rated 'harder' in terms of slope.

blue note · 04-01-2020 12:06pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Slope rating is based on the bogey golfer. So you're looking at a player who won't reach the green in regulation unless it's a shorter par 4 or 5. And whether there are hazards that come into play for those golfers. And that rating affects members as much as visitors, so I'm not sure why a course would want to be rated 'harder' in terms of slope.

But my point is that no set of criteria will be comprehensive enough to capture everything that makes a course easy or difficult for a bogey golfer (or any type of golfer) for that matter. Wind behaves in funny ways on certain courses / holes. How will the criteria consider wind? I'm guessing they'll look at prevailing wind and maybe average wind speeds in the area? But some courses are particularly windy or sheltered. Maybe they'll look at whether it's links or parkland, but some parkland are exceptionally windy.

And that's just a little bit of what you could say about wind. Shots can get a surprising amount of run on some courses, probably due to natural soil conditions or something. Some courses have much thicker rough than others (not just longer). Will they be assessing thickness of rough? Can you do that accurately?

It just seems to me that if you only assess courses on criteria like length, fairway width, etc that you'll be limited by how complete your criteria is. You need another source to assess how accurate your system is. And for me looking at how players from a club perform in other clubs seems like a way of doing this. Because if they go to other clubs and over a reasonable period of time perform above average, then their handicaps must be too high. And they're high based on the slope rating of their home course.

And courses want to be rated as harder because everyone wants to believe their own course is harder than average. That way when shoot an average of 90 they can believe they'd be shooting an average of below 90 on most courses (when in fact they might be further from 80s if they played elsewhere). It's just like no golfer believing they're slower than average.

blue note · 04-01-2020 12:10pm

I suppose the question is whether people think the assesment criteria is robust enough to rate courses accurately and if not what is going to happen when it doesn't?

hurleronditch · 04-01-2020 12:17pm

I think what is causing such discussion here and why it will likely cause much more controversy in Ireland than anywhere else in the world is the fact that Ireland has a system of opens that is not really replicated anywhere else in the world and a significant amount of interclub competition for handicap golfers. In the U.K. and in the US there is much less of a prevalence of both, so accurate handicapping is less significant as anything competitive away from home is a team event or maybe a member guest.

I do think once everyone gets their head around it it makes much more sense than it appears on paper, and is much closer to what the CONGU system currently does than appears on paper. When I moved to the US for the first few months I was totally lost as to how it all worked but now it seems totally natural. I just wonder how my club I’m now returning to will calculate my handicap, will they take my existing world handicap index and just transfer it across or will they make me do 3 cards, which seems silly

blue note · 04-01-2020 12:24pm

Overall it will be fine. I just expect the odd club to have a bit of a crazy rating.

The interclub comps I didn't comment on. From what I hear they have enough trouble with accurate handicaps already!

prawnsambo · 04-01-2020 12:31pm

blue note wrote: »

But my point is that no set of criteria will be comprehensive enough to capture everything that makes a course easy or difficult for a bogey golfer (or any type of golfer) for that matter. Wind behaves in funny ways on certain courses / holes. How will the criteria consider wind? I'm guessing they'll look at prevailing wind and maybe average wind speeds in the area? But some courses are particularly windy or sheltered. Maybe they'll look at whether it's links or parkland, but some parkland are exceptionally windy.

And that's just a little bit of what you could say about wind. Shots can get a surprising amount of run on some courses, probably due to natural soil conditions or something. Some courses have much thicker rough than others (not just longer). Will they be assessing thickness of rough? Can you do that accurately?

They assess the course by visiting it. If wind is a factor all the time then it'll be a factor when it's assessed. Same for run and other factors. These assessments aren't done on paper. Somebody posted a list of the criteria on this thread and it's pretty comprehensive. And slope rating is only one factor in calculating handicaps for a given course/tees. Course rating also plays a part as does par (as noted above).

blue note wrote: »

It just seems to me that if you only assess courses on criteria like length, fairway width, etc that you'll be limited by how complete your criteria is. You need another source to assess how accurate your system is. And for me looking at how players from a club perform in other clubs seems like a way of doing this. Because if they go to other clubs and over a reasonable period of time perform above average, then their handicaps must be too high. And they're high based on the slope rating of their home course.

Slope rating is a neutral calculation for home players who play only on their home course. If it's artificially too high, those players will see their handicap index reduced baecause the course plays easier than the slope rating would suggest. And the same will happen if they play away (assuming the away course has an accurate slope rating).

blue note wrote: »

And courses want to be rated as harder because everyone wants to believe their own course is harder than average. That way when shoot an average of 90 they can believe they'd be shooting an average of below 90 on most courses (when in fact they might be further from 80s if they played elsewhere). It's just like no golfer believing they're slower than average.

Whether or not they want it to 'seem' harder should have no effect whatsoever on its rating. Position of bunkers and hazards can't be changed. Messing around with grass cut height will just draw attention to an issue that shouldn't exist on a well maintained course. Especially when things like frequency and height of mowing is part of the assessment criteria. And it takes a big variance to affect handicaps. A massive increase in rating of 10 points would only make an 8% handicap index change before course rating and par come into the picture.

Seve OB · 04-01-2020 7:23pm

Slopes etc have been used around the world for about 40 years now. They make sense. I don’t think I would worry about the introduction of slopes as being any issue.

Following on from the slope, A handicap index makes sense, meaning your handicap will vary depending on the course you are playing. It is all quite logical I think and should even the playing field. THe thing is nothing is ever going to even the playing field perfectly all the time, that’s just the nature of the game.

The only issue I really have is that your handicap index can increase so much

Golfgraffix · 04-01-2020 7:26pm

The question that the unions won’t answer is will your handicap index be based on your playing history with slope or without.

It will make a substantial difference as a kicking off point.

J

tritriagain · 04-01-2020 8:26pm

When is it kicking in here. This year or next?

Snotty · 04-01-2020 9:09pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

The question that the unions won’t answer is will your handicap index be based on your playing history with slope or without.

It will make a substantial difference as a kicking off point.

J

Data is there with the slope so if they do not it's only for convenience and laziness

prawnsambo · 04-01-2020 9:28pm

Snotty wrote: »

Data is there with the slope so if they do not it's only for convenience and laziness

Club software like HandicapMaster will have it built in, so it seems logical that initial handicaps under the WHS will be based on a look back of scores to create an accurate handicap index. .

Golfgraffix · 04-01-2020 9:42pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Club software like HandicapMaster will have it built in, so it seems logical that initial handicaps under the WHS will be based on a look back of scores to create an accurate handicap index. .

You would think so but not yet

Mantis Toboggan · 04-01-2020 10:15pm

Do we know when will the slope ratings be released?

Snotty · 05-01-2020 1:23am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Club software like HandicapMaster will have it built in, so it seems logical that initial handicaps under the WHS will be based on a look back of scores to create an accurate handicap index. .

I'm wondering would the GUI actually calculate it, they would have all the data, last 20 rounds and the slope of each course that round was played on, could they provide the handicap for all members and the club software will manage it from then on

prawnsambo · 05-01-2020 10:36am

Golfgraffix wrote: »

You would think so but not yet

Well HandicapMaster currently handles the EGA handicap system which is not far removed from the WHS. Don't see any announcement from them on when they will have it included though.
Edit: Actually they made this announcement back in September:

We have now been called to a meeting in late September 2019 in which we hope CONGU will start to explain the changes and give guidance as to what will be required.

At the current time, we have no detailed technical information from CONGU we can provide and we look forward to the golf unions and CONGU starting their conversation with the handicapping software suppliers soon.

We can confirm that we are working to implement the World Handicap System, and await full details to complete development in the HandicapMaster product range for our customers.

Snotty wrote: »

I'm wondering would the GUI actually calculate it, they would have all the data, last 20 rounds and the slope of each course that round was played on, could they provide the handicap for all members and the club software will manage it from then on

Handicapping is the responsibility of the individual clubs. All clubs these days would have identical records to the GUI. That's where the GUI get their records from in the first place.

prawnsambo · 05-01-2020 11:17am

Seems that CONGU are dragging their heels a bit in getting the info out to the software suppliers. Clearly not urgent yet, seeing as it doesn't come into force until November this year, but in the meantime, here's the USGA version of WHS which will be close enough to the system we will be using with the following caveats:

Rule 2.1a
The list of 'Authorised Formats' will be limited in the UK and Ireland to those which count as Qualifying under CONGU at present (except in Ireland where Matchplay will be included)
Rule 3.3
"..their most likely score ..." will not apply
Rule 6.1a & 6.1b
The last blue boxes in the formulae referring to (CR-Par) will not apply. (This was noted in the Golf Digest article above.)

Note: I had to reduce the quality of the attached pdf to get under the 5Mb limit imposed by boards. Consequently, the inline images are extremely pixellated (but just about readable).
Edit: Fixed that now. Should be a lot clearer.

Golfgraffix · 05-01-2020 12:44pm

"prawnsambo wrote:

Handicapping is the responsibility of the individual clubs. All clubs these days would have identical records to the GUI. That's where the GUI get their records from in the first place.

From November it won’t be done at club level. All the club will do through the software is report the scores. All calculation and handicap history will be on the Golf Ireland side.

prawnsambo · 05-01-2020 12:48pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

From November it won’t be done at club level. All the club will do through the software is report the scores. All calculation and handicap history will be on the Golf Ireland side.

Is that confirmed? The software suppliers seem to be under the impression that they have to build the WHS into their software.

Golfgraffix · 05-01-2020 12:53pm

prawnsambo wrote: »

Is that confirmed? The software suppliers seem to be under the impression that they have to build the WHS into their software.

They do have a lot of work to do in preparing the data to send and to receive back but I am pretty sure that most of it will be done on the new Golf IRELAND site.

All the CONGU unions except Scotland are using a New Zealand company to build the backend.

prawnsambo · 05-01-2020 1:00pm

Golfgraffix wrote: »

They do have a lot of work to do in preparing the data to send and to receive back but I am pretty sure that most of it will be done on the new Golf IRELAND site.

All the CONGU unions except Scotland are using a New Zealand company to build the backend.

Yeah. But Scottish golf clubs are up in arms about Scottish Golf's approach of developing their own system and requiring clubs to use it. The article I've linked seems to suggest that the other CONGU unions are continuing with the present system of having handicapping systems in clubs.

There are many ISVs (Independent Software Vendors) at present who are all licensed by CONGU [theCouncil of National Golf Unions] and presently provide versions of software which cover back office as well as competition and handicapping seamlessly with the existing CDH (Central Database of Handicaps) system. We have a good working relationship with our present ISV and have been using their software since 2000 because it best suits our needs.

Scottish Golf for some reason has decided to develop its own new CDH away from the other three CONGU nations. This means that Scottish Golf is paying for developing its own version of software rather that paying a quarter of the costs of developing a joint system with the other nations – to do exactly the same calculations and processes. This cannot be a sensible use of Scottish golfers’ money.

Edit: Currently GolfNet and ISV systems exchange data to maintain handicap records. From what I'm reading above (between the lines) is that this will continue.

paulos53 · 17-02-2020 3:55pm

With the arrival of WHS the USGA have made changes to their Handicap Allowances. It will be interested to see if Ireland & UK will do the same.

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix%20C%20Handicap%20Allowances.htm

Some notable changes:

Individual Stableford and Strokeplay: Reduced from 100% to 95%
Fourball Stableford and Strokeplay: Reduced from 90% to 85%

No change for Individual and Fourball matchplay

They also have the following exception:

Field sizes have an impact on equity and should be considered when determining handicap allowances for a specific event and format of play.

The recommended handicap allowance for all individual stroke play formats of play is set at 95% for medium-sized field net events, of at least 30 players. For a field size of fewer than 30 players, the recommendation would be to increase the handicap allowance to 100%.

Rikand · 17-02-2020 8:27pm

Probably doesnt apply as much here as all our club competitions would always have more than 30 playing in them. Handicap+slope should account for everything.

They need handicap adjustments like that in the US since everyone plays off semi made up handicaps anyway, applying a deduction evens up the artificially high with the artificially low

HighLine · 17-02-2020 8:33pm

Rikand wrote: »

Probably doesnt apply as much here as all our club competitions would always have more than 30 playing in them. Handicap+slope should account for everything.

They need handicap adjustments like that in the US since everyone plays off semi made up handicaps anyway, applying a deduction evens up the artificially high with the artificially low

But the USGA changes highlighted above are for fields of 30+.

Will definitely be interesting to see if a similar reduction will be implemented here.

GreeBo · 17-02-2020 8:55pm

Rikand wrote: »

Probably doesnt apply as much here as all our club competitions would always have more than 30 playing in them. Handicap+slope should account for everything.

They need handicap adjustments like that in the US since everyone plays off semi made up handicaps anyway, applying a deduction evens up the artificially high with the artificially low

Frequently ladies competitions wouldnt have 30 players, half that if they are lucky

dan_ep82 · 17-02-2020 8:57pm

There will need to be an app or something automatic at every course to figure this out at this rate.

lowelife · 18-02-2020 11:45am

dan_ep82 wrote: »

There will need to be an app or something automatic at every course to figure this out at this rate.

You mean like the computer :rolleyes: (that most if not all have?)

dan_ep82 · 18-02-2020 12:19pm

lowelife wrote: »

You mean like the computer :rolleyes: (that most if not all have?)

Not sure why your having a go ?

Computers break down, power outages, slow updates on HC changes. All would need a manual calculation then.

GreeBo · 18-02-2020 2:10pm

Is the size of the field determined before or only after the comp completes?
Bit unfair if your handicap changes mid/after your round. Could impact decisions in stableford or vpar.

Golfgraffix · 18-02-2020 5:07pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

There will need to be an app or something automatic at every course to figure this out at this rate.

Its being built right now, will be out as a companion to the new Golf Ireland Website.

jj72 · 19-02-2020 11:57am

prawnsambo wrote: »

Seems that CONGU are dragging their heels a bit in getting the info out to the software suppliers. Clearly not urgent yet, seeing as it doesn't come into force until November this year, but in the meantime, here's the USGA version of WHS which will be close enough to the system we will be using with the following caveats:

Rule 2.1a
The list of 'Authorised Formats' will be limited in the UK and Ireland to those which count as Qualifying under CONGU at present (except in Ireland where Matchplay will be included)
Rule 3.3
"..their most likely score ..." will not apply
Rule 6.1a & 6.1b
The last blue boxes in the formulae referring to (CR-Par) will not apply. (This was noted in the Golf Digest article above.)

Note: I had to reduce the quality of the attached pdf to get under the 5Mb limit imposed by boards. Consequently, the inline images are extremely pixellated (but just about readable).
Edit: Fixed that now. Should be a lot clearer.

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

mjsc1970 · 19-02-2020 12:22pm

jj72 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

I hope you're right

gypsy79 · 19-02-2020 7:12pm

jj72 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

They will need to be declared before hand. It isnt a necessity to include them

downthemiddle · 19-02-2020 8:17pm

jj72 wrote: »

Am I right in saying that casual rounds will not count towards handicaps?

No, but it must be declared as a qualifying round before tee off.

jj72 · 20-02-2020 5:47pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

No, but it must be declared as a qualifying round before tee off.

Thanks,,, Out of interest, what would declaring entail? Signing in on the computer?

downthemiddle · 20-02-2020 7:24pm

jj72 wrote: »

Thanks,,, Out of interest, what would declaring entail? Signing in on the computer?

I presume so. There will be information meetings for clubs next month when things will, hopefully, become a little clearer.

Seve OB · 20-02-2020 11:22pm

jj72 wrote: »

Thanks,,, Out of interest, what would declaring entail? Signing in on the computer?

we don't know yet. will probably be different here. think i read they are thinking only a few rounds like that allowed per year. in us, would be nearly every round

dan_ep82 · 20-04-2020 5:25pm

I wonder is the plan still to go ahead with this or not.

Depending on when competitions are back on it could be your next competition is under the WHS

prawnsambo · 20-04-2020 5:52pm

dan_ep82 wrote: »

I wonder is the plan still to go ahead with this or not.

Depending on when competitions are back on it could be your next competition is under the WHS

A lot of courses still have to be assessed and rated. I doubt that's been going on at the moment, so it will be backlogged too.

New Worldwide Handicap System

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