Is Universal Basic Income the way forward?

20-02-2020 4:12pm

GreeBo wrote: »

so in 10 years time we will have autobots and exponentially scaling technology to serve you in McDonalds?

Seriously, this is pie in the sky stuff.

When people are talking about machines taking human jobs are you picturing the Terminator or C-3PO in your head?

GreeBo · 20-02-2020 5:50pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Right I meant scaling in the sense that you can develop a single piece of technology and deploy it in thousands of places. Maybe I shouldn't have used the word exponential. Unskilled human labour like childcare isn't scalable. Developing an app and reaching a million people is. So we as a society should consider using something like UBI to boost important jobs like childcare/teachers/elderly-care while all the money is sucked up by Amazon's robots.

Sure developing an app is relatively easy, but I don't see apps what menial jobs these are replacing?

Deleted User wrote: »

McDonald's is a perfect example of a company who could adopt such a thing. In fact their already doing it. We already let a computer land planes. How hard could running a fast-food restaurant be. People already know their getting **** food for a low cost so what difference does it make if there is no human interaction in the process.

tbf McDonalds is the lowest common denominator when it comes to food prep, there are a multitude of variations between McDonalds & fine dining.

Deleted User wrote: »

If you had argued fine dining, sure, I don't think that will be going out of fashion anytime soon. The smaller the company, the less likely they are to standardise everything and attempt to cut all these corners.

As above, doesn't have to be fine dining. I dont think a deli is going to be automated any time soon.

Deleted User wrote: »

Shops are being trialed where you go in and take whatever you want off the shelves and walk out. A series of cameras determine who you are and what you took and bill you accordingly. The likes of Tesco could use a bitcoin-like ledger to track each customer's bill, hosted on AWS Cloud so their local stores could be serverless

S T R E T C H!

GreeBo · 20-02-2020 5:52pm

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Lol, are you having a McLaugh? Not 10yrs, it's 'slightly' sooner

The aim was for the end of 2019, to integrate Dynamic Yield’s technology into almost all (US and Australian) drive-thrus.

Last year McD made it's 3rd tech-automaiton aquisition - Apprente, which uses artificial intelligence to understand speech. Combined with the previously bought ($300m) Dynamic Yield {personalization and machine learning decision logic technology} & Plexure {mobile app ordering} it will make autobot serving very down to earth indeed.

The latest technology mix will be used in its drive-thrus and could be used in its self-order kiosks and mobile apps. It has already evaluated it's use in test restaurants (McD Tech Lab) and deemed it ready for roll out.

The CEO confirmed (in-store) kiosks have been generating higher average checks in the U.S.

Stocks are up 22% at last quater, sure you'd imagine so, when x4 kiosks (that don't take breaks, sickdays or holidays) replace x4 staff members.

Again you are focusing on the payment/order side of things.

In your picture, whats the purpose of the counter to the left of the screen?

Rodin · 20-02-2020 8:07pm

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Finland tried this idea, here's the result. Sounds mixed tbh.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47169549

Who'd have thought that giving people money they didn't have to work for would make them happier and less stressed....

Shocking idea.

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-02-2020 8:24pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Again you are focusing on the payment/order side of things.

In your picture, whats the purpose of the counter to the left of the screen?

Again you're dismissing the huge human redundancy when the transaction process becomes fully automated or even 75% automated I.e. 1R=3H.

The empty deli counter? Soon enough that will also be a touch screen kiosk too, once a flexi LED screen and robotic arm investment (getting cheaper, and better every day) makes fiscal sense on the P&L accounts.

Importantly, once automation occurs there is no going back.

The chap in Waterford or whereever, that purchased x5 or so of those automated milking machines won't ever return to human labour. The machine will pay for itself in 10yrs, and well before then any next or latest model will cost less, and do even more again.

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-02-2020 8:32pm

Rodin wrote: »

Who'd have thought that giving people money they didn't have to work [ *as much* ] for, would make them happier and less stressed....
Shocking idea.

FYP. Yes many trials show the 4day work-week is more desirable than the 5day, hard to believe, shocks all around.

With jolly people, comes higher productivity (France [35hr} outperform the uk {40+}) in terms of productivity. Maybe there is something in those lunchtime 'powernaps' afterall!

Also with jolly citizens, you can not only prevent (in comparable terms) all road deaths, but also raise the dead from the previous year. - ...Well, what is meant by that, is in many Northern Europe countries, 'twice' as many people top themselves, than are killed in RTAs.

GreeBo · 20-02-2020 8:33pm

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Again you're dismissing the huge human redundancy when the transaction process becomes fully automated or even 75% automated I.e. 1R=3H.

The empty deli counter? Soon enough that will also be a touch screen kiosk too, once a flexi LED screen and robotic arm investment (getting cheaper, and better every day) makes fiscal sense on the P&L accounts.

Importantly, once automation occurs there is no going back.

The chap in Waterford or whereever, that purchased x5 or so of those automated milking machines won't ever return to human labour. The machine will pay for itself in 10yrs, and well before then any next or latest model will cost less, and do even more again.

No I'm not because a small percentage of what the staff do is dealing with customers. They are also prepping food, filling display cabinets, cleaning the premises, refill the coffee, set out cups, cook the food.
How do the donuts get there? Robotic arm that takes them from a robotic delivery truck on a robotic trolley into a robotic display cabinet.
Who does all that if you have no staff?

What's the life expectancy of the milking machine... Hopefully it's significantly longer than 10 years...

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-02-2020 9:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

No I'm not because a small percentage of what the staff do is dealing with customers. They are also prepping food, filling display cabinets, cleaning the premises, refill the coffee, set out cups, cook the food.
How do the donuts get there? Robotic arm that takes them from a robotic delivery truck on a robotic trolley into a robotic display cabinet.
Who does all that if you have no staff?

Each retail environment will differ, suffice to say one of the very, very busiest retail shops I've seen, now has 1 human checkout for every 3 automated checkouts per isle, with just one supervisor running about doing everything else per two isles. So: Machines: 6 Humans 3 (instead of Humans:9).

GreeBo wrote: »

What's the life expectancy of the milking machine... Hopefully it's significantly longer than 10 years...

The 24/7 machine will like anything have a warrantly, it won't take coffee, holidays, call in sick, or underperform. It has increased capacity by 20%, has 99.9% accuracy and even detects disease with a few days early notification of such.

Even if you buy a brand new car, the current very best deal you can expect would be 7yrs or 100,000km, average might be 5yrs, sure that's only 50% of 10yrs.

Rodin · 20-02-2020 9:26pm

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

FYP. Yes many trials show the 4day work-week is more desirable than the 5day, hard to believe, shocks all around.

With jolly people, comes higher productivity (France [35hr} outperform the uk {40+}) in terms of productivity. Maybe there is something in those lunchtime 'powernaps' afterall!

Also with jolly citizens, you can not only prevent (in comparable terms) all road deaths, but also raise the dead from the previous year. - ...Well, what is meant by that, is in many Northern Europe countries, 'twice' as many people top themselves, than are killed in RTAs.

I'd blame the lack of daylight on that. It's broken me this winter..

4068ac1elhodqr · 20-02-2020 9:36pm

Rodin wrote: »

I'd blame the lack of daylight on that. It's broken me this winter..

Agree, the folks in Finland sure cheered up in this UBI trial, with the extra time to take a stretch outside and play spot the sun.

VitaminD & melanin (melatonin) will also help that: When skin is exposed to sunlight, it makes vitamin D from cholesterol. The sun's ultraviolet B (UVB) rays hit cholesterol in the skin cells, providing the energy for vitamin D synthesis.
Although the Nordics consume alot of fish already, 30 minutes of midday summer sun exposure up in the Scandilands, is equivalent to consuming a boost of 10,000–20,000 IU of vitamin D.

GreeBo · 21-02-2020 9:56am

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Each retail environment will differ, suffice to say one of the very, very busiest retail shops I've seen, now has 1 human checkout for every 3 automated checkouts per isle, with just one supervisor running about doing everything else per two isles. So: Machines: 6 Humans 3 (instead of Humans:9).

Are you saying at one point they had 9 humans on the shop?
Also your numbers dont seem to add up to me.
There are still human checkouts, and still 1 supervisor per 2 aisles.
Where does 9 humans come into it?

The 24/7 machine will like anything have a warrantly, it won't take coffee, holidays, call in sick, or underperform. It has increased capacity by 20%, has 99.9% accuracy and even detects disease with a few days early notification of such.

Thats handy that you can just make up facts to back up your case.
Let me throw a real one at you.
B&Q spend millions putting in automated checkout machines. They are now ALL gone. Why is that?

As for disease, I have no idea what sort of retail outlets you are shopping in.
Increase capacity?
I'll just leave this here - "Unexpected item in bagging area"

Even if you buy a brand new car, the current very best deal you can expect would be 7yrs or 100,000km, average might be 5yrs, sure that's only 50% of 10yrs.

Indeed, so what you are saying is its likely that this mans milking machine, that needs 10 years to break even, isnt likely to last 10 years.

4068ac1elhodqr · 21-02-2020 12:03pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Are you saying at one point they had 9 humans on the shop?
Also your numbers dont seem to add up to me.
There are still human checkouts, and still 1 supervisor per 2 aisles.
Where does 9 humans come into it?

The new 6 machines have 'directly replaced 6 humans at the checkout' so the previous total human count of 9, is now just 3. Hardly rocket science is it?.

GreeBo wrote: »

B&Q spend millions putting in automated checkout machines. They are now ALL gone. Why is that?

B&Q isn't a FMCG retail space, it's very slow, niche and indeed awkwardly sized and shaped DIY goods that don't fit into the average plastic shopping bag.

For every B&Q type store, there is hundreds more stores that are already suited to upgrade now into automated checkouts. As with all technology it gets better and/or cheaper as time passes.

...Beyond that, the latest AmazonGo stores don't even need checkouts or humans of any sort (including supervisors), anywhere near the store. You walk in, take what you need, and walk out, you are then emailed the reciept. Automated technology does the rest. Welcome to the future.

GreeBo wrote: »

Indeed, so what you are saying is its likely that this mans milking machine, that needs 10 years to break even, isnt likely to last 10 years.

So what you're saying is this machine will produce absolutely massive, (humongous infact) profits, all after just 10yrs, with close to zero overheads and without wages to ever worry about.

Equally, for all we know it may have a lifetime warranty, free servicing and upgrade options. In which case 10yrs is a walk in the park, for which future net profits can easily be offset in the shorter-term.

Clearly it made calculated sense to all the various Farmers that invested in such tech. If you were to invest in Ireland's 10yr Bond instead today, you'd get a (negative) yeild of 0.168.

citysights · 06-03-2020 1:05am

Maybe slightly off topic but this automation and loss of work force isn’t all it’s cracked up to be. Was in a shop today that I hadn’t been in in ages.Checkouts closed and people queuing at self service ones, then I remembered why I stopped going there.Shop making great profit yet poor customer service, if this is the future and what universal social income or whatever it’s called is about it’s not great. Will just be a soulless world.

NIMAN · 06-03-2020 2:03am

Re: those MCD pictures, aren't those the screens that they recently tested and found most have faeces bacteria on them?

06-03-2020 4:38pm

Crewless ships on the horizon

https://venturebeat.com/2018/12/05/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-partners-with-port-of-hamburg-operator-to-develop-cargo-service/

4068ac1elhodqr · 06-03-2020 5:26pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Re: those MCD pictures, aren't those the screens that they recently tested and found most have faeces bacteria on them?

The alternative going forward is washing notes (like china currently), then drying them (at regular intervals), then hand passing to someone at a till, who hands back change etc.

Not to mention checkout staff who may sneeze or cough within 2 metres.

With the pandemic inbound, perhaps there is a triple whammy solution:
UBI, Cashless (only) transactions and automated tills (and other services).

07-03-2020 10:16am

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Each retail environment will differ, suffice to say one of the very, very busiest retail shops I've seen, now has 1 human checkout for every 3 automated checkouts per isle, with just one supervisor running about doing everything else per two isles. So: Machines: 6 Humans 3 (instead of Humans:9).

The 24/7 machine will like anything have a warrantly, it won't take coffee, holidays, call in sick, or underperform. It has increased capacity by 20%, has 99.9% accuracy and even detects disease with a few days early notification of such.

Even if you buy a brand new car, the current very best deal you can expect would be 7yrs or 100,000km, average might be 5yrs, sure that's only 50% of 10yrs.

Cars are a bad example. Industrial machines would be much more robust and reliable. The Germans are world leaders at making these machines.

Potential-Monke · 07-03-2020 4:19pm

I for one am very happy with the self service tills. If only it was easier to shut them up before you use them. But no interacting with people, scan at my rate, no cash to be touching, no one else touching my stuff (more than already). I'm all for automation. I work in an industry that will still be required after automation so not too bothered about it. Would be worried if I was working in those areas though, it's never too soon to upskill/retrain, and the sooner the better.

saabsaab · 19-03-2020 8:56pm

The current crisis will promote a move to universal payment. Thousands are now looking for state money who would never have thought it possible a few weeks ago. If such a payment system was already in place this would not be necessary.

Water John · 07-05-2020 9:12pm

The Finnish Experiment shows benefits;
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/may/07/finnish-basic-income-pilot-improved-wellbeing-study-finds

Ubbquittious · 07-05-2020 11:45pm

NIMAN wrote: »

Re: those MCD pictures, aren't those the screens that they recently tested and found most have faeces bacteria on them?

Wouldnt surprise me.

I was in a McDonalds a few years ago in Luxembourg at a motorway petrol station and those bloody things were the only way you could order. There was a whole slew of those screens and one little guy who didn't speak English (or any other language as far as I could tell) doling out bags of orders. No way to pay with cash either. I didn't bother. There were plenty of teenyboppers using them though, probably all with their mom's debit card.

EmmetSpiceland · 07-05-2020 11:56pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

There were plenty of teenyboppers using them though, probably all with their mom's debit card.

But their own faeces.

The Oort Cloud · 16-05-2020 11:33pm

Ah forgetaboutit.

After all of this major turmoil, there will be no other choice from european governments but to implement the universal basic income, it will actually save hundreds of millions getting rid of the bloated public service organisations gravy-train that process a few million payments per week, shut all of these government buildings down and just use one process hub for the UBI transactions to the citizens. One basic income for all would cut out the middle public service processors and will apply this basic rule for all transactions of money to every-one. If you want to work a day or three, then work away if you need the extra cash. No more stigma.

You all saw what it was like at the start from this virus, over a million people on social welfare payments and the trouble of implementing structures to pay its citizens. If we already had a universal basic income for all, then we all would have saved a small fortune if this system was in place.

Maybe I'm just a bloated fingletin pondering and waffling from my hemp farm, or maybe It makes sense, this world is strange.

16-06-2020 3:03pm

Was listening to Moncrieffe (not sure if that's spelt right or not) on NewsTalk today and he said that all three parties (presumably FG, FF and Greens) have agreed to a trial of UBI..?

arctictree · 16-06-2020 3:15pm

You know that it wouldn't be implemented properly in Ireland. We would still be left with the Dept of social welfare wage bill as no one would be let go, the unions would see to that.

16-06-2020 3:21pm

arctictree wrote: »

You know that it wouldn't be implemented properly in Ireland. We would still be left with the Dept of social welfare wage bill as no one would be let go, the unions would see to that.

Yeah but you could move staff around, I'm sure, or make them redundant.

Stick some of them in the Revenue offices and that kinda thing.

arctictree · 16-06-2020 3:26pm

Also, there would be an announcement made that no one would be worse off. So all the schemes/allowances would be still need to be kept and associated bureaucracy.

EmmetSpiceland · 16-06-2020 3:42pm

arctictree wrote: »

You know that it wouldn't be implemented properly in Ireland. We would still be left with the Dept of social welfare wage bill as no one would be let go, the unions would see to that.

That’s it. You could see it working in other countries, like Canada or Finland, but you just know that even in a “trial run” here it’ll be a disaster with everyone “gaming” the system.

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-06-2020 4:01pm

There would be no 'gaming' the system.
The only risks from UBI where singular countries impiment it are: hyperinflation and sudden mass economic migration.

Once you control these two matters (the 2nd would be unlikely given current conditions), then the system gains the citizens.
Mary with 6kids, would take up part-time gig work to have more net wealth, old Joe would be free to start up some ad-hoc gigging, with no fear of penalty.

kippy · 16-06-2020 5:08pm

arctictree wrote: »

You know that it wouldn't be implemented properly in Ireland. We would still be left with the Dept of social welfare wage bill as no one would be let go, the unions would see to that.

How exactly should it be implemented properly?

kippy · 16-06-2020 5:10pm

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

There would be no 'gaming' the system.
The only risks from UBI where singular countries impiment it are: hyperinflation and sudden mass economic migration.

Once you control these two matters (the 2nd would be unlikely given current conditions), then the system gains the citizens.
Mary with 6kids, would take up part-time gig work to have more net wealth, old Joe would be free to start up some ad-hoc gigging, with no fear of penalty.

I don't understand how you fund it or indeed if and how there are additional supports available for those who may need it?

mickuhaha · 16-06-2020 5:56pm

kippy wrote: »

I don't understand how you fund it or indeed if and how there are additional supports available for those who may need it?

I am not clear how UBI would be better for those in unemployment. Those in unemployment can avail of a lot of different social welfare benefits to help them when they are down on their luck not just the weekly payment. If you take away all the additional benefits you would surely ended up with less money overall depending on your situation and the government can say you already have your money. If you can't get a job it doesn't matter what system we have. Look at rent allowance that's assessed based on cost of local area, your income ect it won't be the same for the person living the in Dublin as Donegal. What about the medical card. Does everyone now have to get health insurance. One last thing in the UBI situation the individual is expected to manage their money and their affairs free from government responsibility but when you have a situation where some people can not manage enough self control to stay out of the pub how are they going to manage their one source of income.

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-06-2020 7:15pm

kippy wrote: »

I don't understand how you fund it or indeed if and how there are additional supports available for those who may need it?

Already mentioned a few pages back (funding), there are no additional supports, it's a universal fixed payment per adult.

As well as offering everyone the opportunity to gig (flexi zero hours type contracts), and even self-employment. There will also be saving by offering someone on welfare with 13 kids, big house and two horses, they will get the same as single Mary/Joe.

The flexi gig work hours aspect will boost natiional productivity greatly.

Geuze · 16-06-2020 8:06pm

kippy wrote: »

I don't understand how you fund it or indeed if and how there are additional supports available for those who may need it?

It requires a 40-45% flat tax on all earned income.

Geuze · 16-06-2020 8:11pm

kippy wrote: »

I don't understand how you fund it or indeed if and how there are additional supports available for those who may need it?

This is one proposal:

https://www.socialjustice.ie/content/policy-issues/type/basic-income

Payment would be conditional on residency within Ireland. In line with current welfare requirements, non-citizens must have lived here for a number of years before becoming entitled to a UBI.

The level of the payment would be age-dependent.

Payment would be constant and does not change upon the taking up of employment or the acquiring of other income.

All income, aside from the UBI payment, would be subject to tax at one single rate of 40 per cent. All other income tax rates, as well as Employee PRSI and Universal Social Charge, are abolished. The rationale for using a tax rate of 40 per cent was to show what could be achieved in the prevailing context in 2016.
Raising the necessary funds on the basis of a more progressive taxation model would be preferable.

The Employer PRSI rate would increase to 13 per cent.

There would be no tax credits or tax reliefs.

The UBI would replace almost all core welfare payments, payments in respect of disability, illness and other additional needs would be retained.

Geuze · 16-06-2020 8:15pm

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

As well as offering everyone the opportunity to gig (flexi zero hours type contracts), and even self-employment. There will also be saving by offering someone on welfare with 13 kids, big house and two horses, they will get the same as single Mary/Joe.

The SJI 2015 model is as follows:

https://www.socialjustice.ie/sites/default/files/attach/policy-issue-article/4642/chapter9.pdf

Age
0-17 = 31.50 pw
18-65 = 150 pw
66-79 = 230.30, same as SPC
80+ = 240.30, same as SPC

kippy · 16-06-2020 8:55pm

Kamila Panicky Pentagon wrote: »

Already mentioned a few pages back (funding), there are no additional supports, it's a universal fixed payment per adult.

As well as offering everyone the opportunity to gig (flexi zero hours type contracts), and even self-employment. There will also be saving by offering someone on welfare with 13 kids, big house and two horses, they will get the same as single Mary/Joe.

The flexi gig work hours aspect will boost natiional productivity greatly.

Thanks all for the responses. I will go through the links in detail..I have read a couple of pages of the pdf.
Based on what I have read I don't think the proposed figure of 150 euro a week is in any way acceptable to those tens of thousands who are in receipt of all the various supports currently available without major structural change in the delivery of housing, education and health and even at that, on the face of it, I cannot see that figure working.
As for the gig economy,what type of work are you thinking about here?

4068ac1elhodqr · 16-06-2020 9:05pm

Geuze wrote: »

The SJI 2015 model is as follows:
Age
0-17 = 31.50 pw
18-65 = 150 pw
66-79 = 230.30, same as SPC
80+ = 240.30, same as SPC

Guess that makes sense, rather than a seperate child benefit, class them as a UBI recipient.

Naturally if GDP increases from an actual (true) zero % unemployment event, income taxes can be lowered in response.

Even if some elderly biddy does a 4hrs gig per month calling bingo numbers, to cover the regular caller's holidays, that's still a flexible stimulus contribution to the economy that might not have existed, and the bingo won't get cancelled.

Ush1 · 16-06-2020 10:00pm

If you advocate for universal basic income you literally don't understand what money is. Money is simply a mechanism to transfer value.

Hairy Japanese BASTARDS! · 16-06-2020 10:28pm

PanMyHans wrote: »

Benefits:
1. Remove the unfair stigma from unemployed.
2. It will enable society to pursue endeavours outside of work
3. People will be happier
4. Classism and sexism will be reduced.

Are you posting from Venezuela?

Geuze · 16-06-2020 10:34pm

mickuhaha wrote: »

What about the medical card. Does everyone now have to get health insurance.

UBI is separate from healthcare.

Note that hosp care is universal for everybody in Ireland, with just two charges for people who don't have a med card.

landofthetree · 16-06-2020 10:43pm

Firstly how many people dont have an income?

Students who dont work part time.

Then who? Stay at home mothers who cant get the dole because of their spouses income,(Obviously if they leave their job they can get for a while jf they have enough contributions paid).

People over 66 who dont have enough contributions to get a pension and cant get the non-contributary one as their spouse earns too much.

landofthetree · 16-06-2020 10:51pm

I think the idea of negative income tax is one worth looking at.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Geuze · 16-06-2020 11:29pm

landofthetree wrote: »

I think the idea of negative income tax is one worth looking at.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_income_tax

Yes, another variant is known as refundable tax credits.

FIS/WTP is a version of this idea.

Water John · 14-05-2021 8:38pm

Wales are looking to do a pilot on UBI, based on cross party interest:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/14/wales-to-launch-universal-basic-income-pilot-scheme

saabsaab · 14-05-2021 8:49pm

With PUP it came close.

bnt · 14-05-2021 10:26pm

Assuming there's enough money for it, I'm still torn on the topic. On the one hand, it could tackle financial insecurity among people whose jobs are disrupted or lost due to technological change. There are only so many times that people can be expected to re-train for a new career. I know there are no more "jobs for life" but people need some job security, or a way to live without jobs.

On the other hand, economics teaches us that people respond to incentives, and markets adjust to changing economic conditions. For example, we've seen how "help to buy" schemes cause home prices to increase, leaving buyers no better off in the long run. You give people more money, other people will be lining up to take it off them in various ways, through price increases.

If you pay people just for existing, especially if that applies to children, that will lead to an increase in population as people have more children to rake in more UBI. So I would apply UBI to adults only, and not subsidise children at all, so as to sidestep that incentive. You might say "but we need children" ... no, you don't. Or you might say "that will mean only rich people have children" ... I don't have a problem with that, since UBI would be funded by taxpayers, of which I am one. :P

Geuze · 14-05-2021 11:48pm

bnt wrote: »

If you pay people just for existing, especially if that applies to children, that will lead to an increase in population as people have more children to rake in more UBI. S:P

UBI would replace Child Benefit, so a mother would receive the same payment as now.

Not extra.

Water John · 15-05-2021 3:52pm

Much of the opposition to UBI is based on the notion that humans are naturally inclined to be indolent. This has a parallel notion that humans will not innately good. Both are untrue, but ideas that have been used by those in authority to impose controls. UBI I feel will liberate a lot of artistic endeavour.
Would be interesting to study how some used PUP and the time out to improve their personal lives.

saabsaab · 15-05-2021 3:55pm

Water John wrote: »

Much of the opposition to UBI is based on the notion that humans are naturally inclined to be indolent. This has a parallel notion that humans will not innately good. Both are untrue, but ideas that have been used by those in authority to impose controls. UBI I feel will liberate a lot of artistic endeavour.
Would be interesting to study how some used PUP and the time out to improve their personal lives.

While I agree with you overall there are some (I guess somewhere 5 tp 10%) who are not.

Is Universal Basic Income the way forward?

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