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Archaeoastronomy at megalithic sites

24

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunrise alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742335839129265&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunset alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336412462541&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336619129187&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theatre

    Hopefully if people visit any of these sites they might post there pictures / videos here or on the facebook page.

    I've been looking at lunar alignments for the last while and should be able to add some of those in the new year.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunrise alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742335839129265&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunset alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336412462541&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336619129187&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theatre

    Hopefully if people visit any of these sites they might post there pictures / videos here or on the facebook page.

    I've been looking at lunar alignments for the last while and should be able to add some of those in the new year.
    I hope to pay a visit to Boleycarrigeen on the day, weather permitting.
    I'm also quite interested in the possibility of a lunar rise there and its relationship to nearby monuments.
    Any thoughts?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunrise alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742335839129265&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    I've uploaded the potential Winter Solstice Sunset alignments here

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336412462541&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=742336619129187&set=a.690823190947197.1073741826.607479465948237&type=1&theatre

    Hopefully if people visit any of these sites they might post there pictures / videos here or on the facebook page.

    I've been looking at lunar alignments for the last while and should be able to add some of those in the new year.

    These lists are great, dead handy! Thanks for sharing :) I think Slieve Gullion should be in the sunset list though rather than sunrise, if I'm reading them correctly!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Cianmcliam wrote: »
    These lists are great, dead handy! Thanks for sharing :) I think Slieve Gullion should be in the sunset list though rather than sunrise, if I'm reading them correctly!

    Bugger it is sunset alright. As long as no treks up there for sunrise I should be ok. I'll change it going forward. Thanks Cian


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    slowburner wrote: »
    I hope to pay a visit to Boleycarrigeen on the day, weather permitting.
    I'm also quite interested in the possibility of a lunar rise there and its relationship to nearby monuments.
    Any thoughts?

    Well to be honest, it looks to be that the only way to figure out lunar alignments is to do a survey onsite and see if the declination is in and around the magic numbers for the major and minor lunar standstills. I'm not going to pretend that I'd be able to carry out a survey like that or that I fully understand how it works.
    What you might be able to do is download the sun-surveyor app for a smartphone. With it you can check where moon rises and sets for a specific time and date. From what I understand the next lunar minor standstill is in 2015 but that there are a number of dates around it that it may be observable.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,971 ✭✭✭spookwoman


    Just a thought there are some Stargazing programs out there like starry night and stellarium that allow you to put in a date and see what the night sky looks like. If you have the direction eg N S E W could work out roughly whats about etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    the question no one seem to be asking is how did people determine that today is the longest day? Or shortest? And not yesterday...Everyone seem to take that as being given and all we have to do is get few stones and mark the place where sun is rising or setting on that day.

    Any ideas?


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    tracking the change of the moon is easy. This is why all the first calendars were moon based.

    8000 years old lunar calendar (first pocket calendar) found in Serbia.

    rep-Medvednjak-figura_620x0.jpg

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2511828/Could-worlds-oldest-pocket-calendar-Engraved-tusk-told-farmers-harvest-crops-8-000-years-ago.html

    Scottish lunar calendar, 10,000 years old:

    ku-xlarge.png

    http://gizmodo.com/archaeologists-discover-worlds-oldest-calendar-in-scot-922374641


    Not all calendars use the solar year as a unit. A lunar calendar is one in which days are numbered within each lunar phase cycle. Because the length of the lunar month is not an even fraction of the length of the tropical year, a purely lunar calendar quickly drifts against the seasons, which don't vary much near the equator. It does, however, stay constant with respect to other phenomena, notably tides. An example is the Islamic calendar. Alexander Marshack, in a controversial reading,[3] believed that marks on a bone baton (c. 25,000 BC) represented a lunar calendar. Other marked bones may also represent lunar calendars. Similarly, Michael Rappenglueck believes that marks on a 15,000-year old cave painting represent a lunar calendar.[4]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    The solstice is easy enough to determine to within a day or two, you just watch the sunrise or sunset position along the horizon and record the exact spot where it seems to stop moving in one direction, pause for a few days and then start moving in the opposite direction. It's just the extreme positions of the sun along the horizon. Determining the exact day is pretty hard by observing with the naked eye but if you count days carefully it can be determined. The real question is whether they were interested in such extreme precision, since there's a period of five or six days when the sun seems not to change position then getting a 'solstice' alignment that works is the easiest thing in the world to anyone interested in the movements of the sun.

    EDIT: I'd be a bit skeptical of that Scottish 'lunar calendar'!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    true.
    Stand somewhere that you have a clear view of the eastern horizon
    Every day when the sun comes up, mark the point in the direction of where you see it.
    The furthest point north will be the longest day of the year (in the northern hemisphere). It'll be back to the same point the next year on the longest day.

    So once you determine the two extremes, or just one, the winter one for instance, you use lunar change to measure the time between. But because the lunar cycle is shorter than the calendar year, you will need to adjust it every year by determining the solstice. But if you already know the length of the lunar cycle (28 - 30 days, depending on precision), you can start marking the lunar months on the line representing two sun opposites. So you end up with composite solar lunar calendar. It starts at winter solstice, then you have one stone per 28 (or 30 depends how precise you are) days month. This gives you 12 or 13 months and "extra" days, known as "dead days" in Serbia or "mratinci". In Serbia these are 7 extra days that you have left after 12 lunar months of 29 days each. These are taboo days. Then From winter solstice, the lunar cycle starts again. Serbian sun god dies on the 25th of December and resurrects on the 1st of January. But originally there were 10 dead days.
    The average calendrical month, which is 1⁄12 of a year, is about 30.44 days, while the Moon's phase (synodic) cycle repeats on average every 29.53 days.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_phase

    Winter solstice 21 of December. 355th day of the year. 355/12 = 29.58333333333333

    the rest are 10 "dead days". The days between the end of the year and beginning of the new year.


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    In Serbia and in Ireland day used to be counted from sunset. This probably has to do with the fact that the passing of time was calculated using moon changes. If the day was counted from the the end of the day, the sunset, was the year also counted from the end, backwards, from winter solstice? If you count from winter solstice back, using precise moon cycle of 29.53, you arrive at the first of January. Is this the reason why first of January was always the first day of the old Serbian calendar? Today in Serbia year is ending on 25th of December, because Christian church tried to remove the significance of winter solstice.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 26 Orion36


    Cianmcliam wrote: »
    The solstice is easy enough to determine to within a day or two, you just watch the sunrise or sunset position along the horizon and record the exact spot where it seems to stop moving in one direction, pause for a few days and then start moving in the opposite direction. It's just the extreme positions of the sun along the horizon. Determining the exact day is pretty hard by observing with the naked eye but if you count days carefully it can be determined. The real question is whether they were interested in such extreme precision, since there's a period of five or six days when the sun seems not to change position then getting a 'solstice' alignment that works is the easiest thing in the world to anyone interested in the movements of the sun.

    EDIT: I'd be a bit skeptical of that Scottish 'lunar calendar'!

    Modern readers are terrified of timekeeping and get upset very quickly when they are corrected however the people who built Newgrange knew what they were doing and certainly,in this day and age where they work off ridiculous and contrived principles,our era couldn't do what the ancients did and that is an occasion for an equal sense of pride and shame.

    The fact is that you can't create an alignment such as Newgrange based solely on counting days and the Sun's declination otherwise the alignment would drift by a day after 4 cycles of 365 days and after 30 years the alignment would be lost if you showed up on the same 365th day.

    People don't have a choice here,in order to maintain a fixed day to the annual solstice and equinox points they have to recognize that an additional day is required to maintain an alignment after the 4th cycle of 365 days .It can be argued that Newgrange was abandoned if they based the annual cycle on 365 days as ,after 24 years or so,the alignment would be lost on that chosen day.

    I have not known anyone else with a love of the cyclical references used for timekeeping and especially the known ones which we inherited from antiquity like the Canopus decree -

    " on account of the precession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years, therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the New Year, whereby all men shall learn, that what was a little defective in the order as regards the seasons and the year, as also the opinions which are contained in the rules of the learned on the heavenly orbits, are now corrected and improved" Canopus Decree ,236 BC

    I see people chancing their arm in a reckless kind of way and that doesn't build monuments like Newgrange and keep them aligned to the solstice for over 5200 years. It would be nice to encounter a genuine curious soul with the same appreciation of the cycles as the ancients once did,not only that,but frame it all in terms of the planet's dynamics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I was at Glastrigan Stone Row over the last few evenings in the hope that it may have been aligned to the winter solstice sunset. Yesterday I was very hopeful that it was (the sun set behind the clouds). Today less so unfortunately. It sets a good bit over to the right of what looks like the axis of the row. However the tallest (end stone) does appear to be angled in the direction of where it sets and with a small step to the left it can be shown to be aligned. I need to do a bit more checking but it may be aligned towards the lunar major sunrise.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=749472285082287&set=p.749472285082287&type=1&theater

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=749473601748822&set=p.749473601748822&type=1&theater


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭randomperson12


    some earthworks have the same porpose


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    some earthworks have the same porpose

    Possibly so - do you know any examples random?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,191 ✭✭✭yellowlabrador


    I've been following this thread and I find it fascinating. I've just watched this documentary about acoustics and remember it being discussed in this thread



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Coles


    Excellent documentary. Thanks for posting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I've put together a lunar alignment database for Ireland based on Ruggles Prehistoric Astronomy of Britain & Ireland.
    As far as I can make out these are the sites that are in ball-park for the lunar cycle.

    https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=DE0E53B74BAFAA45!124&cid=de0e53b74bafaa45&app=Excel&wdo=2


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Fries-With-That


    bawn79 wrote: »
    I've put together a lunar alignment database for Ireland based on Ruggles Prehistoric Astronomy of Britain & Ireland.
    As far as I can make out these are the sites that are in ball-park for the lunar cycle.

    https://skydrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=DE0E53B74BAFAA45!124&cid=de0e53b74bafaa45&app=Excel&wdo=2

    +1,Nice work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    Anyway, back to a more serious question.


    So the chevron patterns at Newgrange have 12 repetitions, which matches the resonance of the tomb, whereas the lunar calender year (354.37 days) will have be almost 13 cycles per year.

    Could the chevron patterns have more to do with the acoustics than with the measurement of the sun.

    None of the major stone age monuments in question are adjacent the sea, or seem to make any measurements regarding time, so perhaps the Lunar significance is less than previously thought ?

    Or is there a definite repetition of Lunar alignments ?

    I'm not really sure what my question is....

    I still definitely think that the stone basins were used as either smoke or steam generators on the solstice/equinox (depending on the monument) alignments, and that the resonance of the structures were used to create standing waves.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    in Serbian old name for full moon was "uštap". uštap = u + štap = into + stick = mark it into a stick. Remember the oldest portable lunar calendar found in Serbia.

    8000 years old lunar calendar (first pocket calendar) found in Serbia.

    rep-Medvednjak-figura_620x0.jpg


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87951351&postcount=59

    This one is made out of mammoth tusk with notches on it for each day. It was probably temple object. Ordinary people probably made calendars from a stick with notches cut in for each "uštap", full moon. Shepherds in mountains in Serbia were still counting time using stick calendars in 20th century.

    have fun


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    Hey DUBLINVIKING,

    Just a quick question about the pocket calendar,

    What size is it? It looks to be fairly small.

    It must have come from a very small mammoth if it can fit into a pocket!

    Also, I do not understand how this relates to the alignment of ancient monuments with the sun/moon and stars??


  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭dublinviking


    I have no idea how big this is. When they say pocket, they mean not stuck into the ground or painted on a rock.

    As for how this relates to alignment of monuments, i already explained once before:
    So once you determine the two extremes, or just one, the winter one for instance, you use lunar change to measure the time between. But because the lunar cycle is shorter than the calendar year, you will need to adjust it every year by determining the solstice. But if you already know the length of the lunar cycle (28 - 30 days, depending on precision), you can start marking the lunar months on the line representing two sun opposites. So you end up with composite solar lunar calendar. It starts at winter solstice, then you have one stone (or a notch on a stick if you are away from the main calendar) per 28 (or 30 depends how precise you are) days month. This gives you 12 or 13 months and "extra" days, known as "dead days" in Serbia or "mratinci". In Serbia these are 7 extra days that you have left after 12 lunar months of 29 days each. These are taboo days. Then From winter solstice, the lunar cycle starts again.

    Serbian sun god dies every year and gets reborn.


    What is interesting is that the name of the full moon in Serbian reflects the old custom of using sun - moon calendar.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 226 ✭✭randomperson12


    funny no one from midlands east galway area on here only me


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Posts that were wandering further and further off topic have been moved to this thread and related posts have been deleted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    The upending movement of the seasons continues and the upcoming cross quarter day is due on the 3rd February. I have put together a list of the suspected alignment sites on my new blog http://megalithicarchaeoastronomy.blogspot.ie/p/nov-feb-cross-quarter-day.html - searching for pics on the internet I noticed that there are no pictures of sun-rise from Cairn U up on Carnbane East at the Feb - Nov Cross Quarter. So if any one is in the area it might be an interesting one to take a look at.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    I've been up to Cairn U three times over the years, cloudy every time! Last time I went up I got a short burst a little after sunrise, will have a look and see if the pics are worth seeing. From what I could see, the sun shifts out of the passage very quickly after sunrise so any cloud on the horizon could be a problem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Cianmcliam wrote: »
    I've been up to Cairn U three times over the years, cloudy every time! Last time I went up I got a short burst a little after sunrise, will have a look and see if the pics are worth seeing. From what I could see, the sun shifts out of the passage very quickly after sunrise so any cloud on the horizon could be a problem.

    Hey Cian,

    Ya I figured you might have made a few attempts at it! Did you bring your tarpaulin to go over the passage?
    I've been down to Knockroe a few times over the years and I think that without using a covering tarpaulin there that we will never get to see the true effect of the sunset.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 715 ✭✭✭Cianmcliam


    No, didn't bring the tarpaulin! Used it a few times on Carnbane West but the one I have is too light to have a major effect, it's also blue which makes photos look weird.

    They had a frame over the west tomb at Knockroe at one point, I assume to cover it over like the kerbstone on the opposite side, the frame has since vanished though.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 26 Orion36


    Anyway, back to a more serious question.

    None of the major stone age monuments in question are adjacent the sea, or seem to make any measurements regarding time, so perhaps the Lunar significance is less than previously thought ?

    You have to think like the original builders and consider why they chose the inland site .

    It still amazes me just how learned those old builders were and the physical restrictions which go along with the solstice marker. It is no use building an alignment with a light show like Newgrange down by the coast as the light of the rising Sun is far too weak until it is well above the horizon and suitable sites East of Newgrange to the coast are limited.

    The hill above where the Sun rises at the Solstice would have to match the altitude of the hill where the monument is built insofar as if the hill opposite the monument were too low the problem would have been the same as the coast and if it were too high the declination would be problematic for construction of a roofbox and entirely impractical. People have to love the practicalities which would enchant any architect today in terms of form and function.


    Gerald Samsung galaxy s2 027.jpg


    The photo is of a natural equinox alignment on the coast at Clogherhead known as the 'Red Man's Cave' (owing to the color of marine growth) and personally I like the possibility that it is a natural template for the great Newgrange entrance. In some respects it is possible to see why a sea level monument is impractical so the natural cave does serve a purpose in the archaeological scheme of things.

    Btw, one thing I really like about Newgrange is the recognizable fern indented in the interior and exterior and anyone who visits the headland of Clogherhead will see no ferns on the South side of the headland while the North side,for obvious reasons,is covered in ferns.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Cianmcliam wrote: »
    No, didn't bring the tarpaulin! Used it a few times on Carnbane West but the one I have is too light to have a major effect, it's also blue which makes photos look weird.

    They had a frame over the west tomb at Knockroe at one point, I assume to cover it over like the kerbstone on the opposite side, the frame has since vanished though.

    I have a big sheet of thick black plastic - I do wonder what the Gardaí would think of it if I was stopped!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    The Spring Equinox is on the 20th of March this year. I've updated my blog with the full list of potential Equinox sites for next week. Hopefully a few people will get out to observe and record some of these alignments.

    http://megalithicarchaeoastronomy.blogspot.ie/p/1.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    bawn79 wrote: »
    The Spring Equinox is on the 20th of March this year. I've updated my blog with the full list of potential Equinox sites for next week. Hopefully a few people will get out to observe and record some of these alignments.

    http://megalithicarchaeoastronomy.blogspot.ie/p/1.html

    I visited this stone pair in North Tipperary Lisheentyrone which is aligned in an east west direction for the equinox sunset. The sun sets behind two hills to the west. One on the Tipperary side of Lough Derg and one on the Clare side.

    The second stone has fallen over but it seems to be pretty accurate.

    http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/128019/lisheentyrone.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    It can be argued that the Nov / Feb cross quarter day possibly relates to Samhain and Imbolc in the "Celtic" calendar. There seems to be quite a few suspected alignments at this time (Approx 20 sites on the spreadsheet I put together).
    Now what really weakens the cross quarter argument is that to date I have only three potential sites for the May (Beltaine) / Aug (Lughnasa) cross quarter alignments. Namely Grange Lios, Beltany Tops and Cairn S at Loughcrew.
    Anyone have any suggestions as to why that might be?
    I've been rereading the "Festival of Lughnasa" (Basically a list of over 100 Lughnasa assembly sites) by Maire MacNeill and her analysis shows that the festival of Lughnasa was celebrated mainly on hill-tops, lakes / rivers and at some assembly sites.
    Is there any connection between the "Festival of Lughnasa" and the August cross quarter? Could these sites have been chosen originally for some astronomical observation function? If not then why was the Nov / Feb cross quarter more important than the May / Aug one?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I've updated my blog with the full list of potential Summer Solstice sites for next week. Hopefully a few people will get out to observe and record some of these alignments.

    http://megalithicarchaeoastronomy.blogspot.ie/p/5_16.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Bonedigger


    bawn79 wrote: »
    It can be argued that the Nov / Feb cross quarter day possibly relates to Samhain and Imbolc in the "Celtic" calendar. There seems to be quite a few suspected alignments at this time (Approx 20 sites on the spreadsheet I put together).
    Now what really weakens the cross quarter argument is that to date I have only three potential sites for the May (Beltaine) / Aug (Lughnasa) cross quarter alignments. Namely Grange Lios, Beltany Tops and Cairn S at Loughcrew.
    Anyone have any suggestions as to why that might be?
    I've been rereading the "Festival of Lughnasa" (Basically a list of over 100 Lughnasa assembly sites) by Maire MacNeill and her analysis shows that the festival of Lughnasa was celebrated mainly on hill-tops, lakes / rivers and at some assembly sites.
    Is there any connection between the "Festival of Lughnasa" and the August cross quarter? Could these sites have been chosen originally for some astronomical observation function? If not then why was the Nov / Feb cross quarter more important than the May / Aug one?

    I think there may very well be evidence out there to suggest that there was a connection between the August cross-quarter day and the 'Festival of Lúghnasadh'.In fact,I've been doing a little research myself into a possible relationship between the celebrations of Lúghnasadh at the royal site of Dún Ailinne and some astronomical observations I've witnessed on the nearby Curragh.The image below shows the August cross-quarter day sunset on Red Hill in Co.Kildare.This was observed from the Gibbet Rath which lies c. 7 kms.
    E-NE of Red Hill.

    D53A31C27C4A49BA9F0507700B85FEBC-0000372749-0003598942-01024L-D389F0C562FE4CEFB07922C3BB77758E.jpg

    DDAD5B59103F4461838FA54E5E9A692D-0000372749-0003598962-01024L-9D30C30725C846C5AA30A55F2ADC557B.jpg

    The curious thing about this sunset is that the sun does not appear to descend behind the summit of the hill,but at a point very close to where a multivallate ring-barrow is sited(SMR no. KD022-009).This barrow lies some 200 metres to the east of the summit.

    35BA26E02491498FBAD7FFB972620DB2-0000372749-0003598954-01024L-078BE281D12A4BF7A9A76E2D2F9B30C3.jpg

    I only got a window of about a half an hour to get the shots of the sunset(the days before and after were dreadfully overcast),and with the clouds partially screening the descending sun,it was difficult to see exactly where its disc was in relation to the top of the hill.However,upon closer inspection of the images it would appear that the sun had passed below the hill just to the right of the site of the multivallate ring-barrow.It seemed to me that the Gibbet Rath was not afterall the intended place where the August cross-quarter day sunset was to be observed.The Gibbet Rath lies close to a cluster of barrows(Cluster E;The Curragh:a Prehistoric Landscape - Pádraig Clancy),which lie on the crest of an east-west aligned ridge called Long Hill.
    Long Hill is the site of the present day military camp on the Curragh(I will return to the importance of Long Hill in this research below).One particular barrow - KD023-044 - lies less than 300m. to the E-NE of the Gibbet Rath.I have more than a hunch that it was at this very barrow that the August cross-quarter sunset was meant to be observed.This barrow sits on a prominent ridge where it has panoramic views of the surrounding terrain.Red Hill is clearly visible and the royal site of Dún Ailinne/Knockaulin would also have been visible to the SE,although today it's obscured by a plantation of trees.

    1F37A73757D14AB8BA2E407C22693C8B-0000372749-0003598943-01024L-5A0924E030864869A9019D965C966B69.jpg

    43EB6C440C054CCA8A7F739FDF0A9F77-0000372749-0003598955-01024L-A5C7549699FC4F25BCA73E8E66D265B8.jpg

    The yellow line in the image above represents an alignment from the multivallate ring-barrow(KD022-009) on Red Hill to the ring-barrow KD023-044 close to the Gibbet Rath.In the strictest sense of the word it's not a true alignment when you compare it to the very precise alignments observed at megalithic tombs or at stone circles,but I think it's significant enough to have been of spiritual and ritualistic importance to the people who built these barrows.While studying this alignment,I stumbled upon something rather curious and possibly exciting,but I'm not sure?I noticed how close the Cursus-like monument on Long Hill was to the barrows on this ridge,so I extended the perceived barrow-to-barrow alignment and low and behold this alignment came very close to what may have been the W-NW facing terminus of the Cursus.There is much debate as to whether this recorded monument was indeed a Cursus,but it certainly bears similarities to other so-called Cursus monuments.
    Unfortunately it no longer exists,but was recorded on the OSI Historic 6" maps
    - see here: http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,678077,711504,6,7

    Is it possible that the Cursus monument played a role in the August cross-quarter day sunset rituals/celebrations?We can't be sure of course that that is where the terminus of the Cursus was,but even if the Cursus monument was longer,that surely would mean that those standing within the Cursus at that point would witness the cross-quarter sunset on Red Hill?In fact,it would also mean that it was possible to see the May cross-quarter day sunset here too.

    56B782395BCF4CF4A3551885E2B7566C-0000372749-0003598956-00800L-A6E83B7BC5224036B2F6E8DEAF553D02.jpg

    The questions posed by Bawn above are very relevant here I believe.The royal site of Dún Ailinne lies c.6.5kms. to the SE of this cluster of monuments.

    18F252A5194D48B796E20C74BC609AF9-0000372749-0003598961-00800L-5FDA269F2F1E4C6B992B17AE727B49F9.jpg

    Dún Ailinne is mentioned in the Dindseanchas and is believed to have been the site of Lúghnasadh festival celebrations.About seven or eight years ago I paid a visit to Dún Ailinne and by pure chance happened to meet Professor Ronald Hicks there.Professor Hicks,an anthropologist,was a member of the American team who carried out excavations on the summit of the hill in the 1970's.During these excavations it was discovered that one could observe the summer solstice sun descend behind a range of hills to the northwest.Red Hill lies on these very same range of hills which are known locally as 'the Chair Hills'.Carrickanearla(Cathaoir an Iarla/Carraig an Iarla),believed to be an inauguration site of the kings of the Uí Failghe,is a mound which sits quite prominently between the summits of the hills of Dunmurry and Grange.The summer solstice sun is seen to descend between these two hills close to the mound of Carrickanearla.Professor Hicks proposes that these two hills may be the hills that are referred to in the Dindseanchas as 'Adarca Hui Failgi',the Horns of Offaly/the Horns of Eochaid's Cattle.

    9F103135A24B471DA229D926907EF629-0000372749-0003598977-00800L-ECC1F2C6D6B245F5B5DC27710CC120D7.jpg

    Professor Hicks argues that Dún Ailinne belonged to a much wider sacred landscape and explains it far better than I ever could in a paper entitled "Dún Ailinne's Role in Folklore,Myth and the Sacred Landscape",which can be downloaded as a PDF from Bawn's Megalithicarchaeoastronomy site on Facebook : https://www.facebook.com/MegalithicArcheoAstronomy

    I think what I'm trying to get at here is that we know Dún Ailinne played a significant role in the Festival of Lúghnasadh,but did the astronomical observations I've outlined above have a role in those celebrations and rituals too?The Curragh is recorded in the 'Annals of the Four Masters' as the site of two Óenigh,Óenach Cholmain and Oénach Life.Is it possible that those gathered for either of these Óenigh witnessed the August cross-quarter day sunset from the site of the barrows,or even more tantalisingly,from the Cursus?

    Bawn and I spoke privately about this some time ago.I must apologise to you Bawn for going AWOL and not replying to you when I should have,but got tied up in something else at that time and took time away from the forum.I hope you don't mind me clogging up this thread on you?!


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Great post Bonedigger.
    Apologies in advance for drifting away from the thread topic.
    There is another cursus at Brewel Hill (KD032-058). This cursus may align with a cursus on Keadeen mountain which I think may also be visible to the extreme right in your photos from Gibbet Rath .
    If there is a relationship between the lowland and upland cursus (the plural of cursus is cursus!) then we might expect that there should be one somewhere below the Coolasneachta cursus (see the Cailín Slipes - not yet listed on the SMR).
    There is yet another cursus at Lugnagun, overlooking Blessington lakes (also not yet listed).
    It is conceivable that the Curragh cursus aligns with Lugnagun but I doubt that they are visible to each other.
    Christiaan Corlett writes about the Leinster cursus monuments in the current issue of Archaeology Ireland.
    Undoubtedly, this monument type is in the very early stages of both discovery and understanding. Being somewhat in the mix with the newer discoveries, I am convinced that there are at least two classes; upland and lowland. The upland cursus are entirely different to the lowland monuments (Tara, Newgrange, Stonehenge, Dorset et al, and perhaps the Curragh and Brewell Hill) I believe, and may have had an entirely different and as yet unknown function.
    One of the characteristics which determines cursus classification (so far) is the existence of a terminus. Not all the known cursus show a terminus. Whether these were robbed out or never existed is not known and is unlikely to be determined without excavation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Very comprehensive post Bone-digger and glad to have you back. The observation about the cursus is really interesting and I suppose if someone goes to the trouble of marking an alignment then to me it would make more sense to point to it with something impressive such as a cursus rather than small like a ring-barrow.

    The August cross quarter is coming up soon so hopefully a chance to see where the sunsets. Although you may get some funny looks from those soldiers if your standing around taking pictures!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Really interesting slow-burner about the cursus. Id say there is a good chance there are a lot of these lying around the landscape waiting to be discovered. Particularly if a relatively small area in Wicklow has revealed so many.
    That's a great blog by the way, is that yours slowburner?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Bonedigger


    Hello again Bawn and apologies to both you and Slowburner for my late reply to your posts,but I've spent several days busily investigating the lie of the land close to the Curragh Cursus on Long Hill in the hope that it would give me clues as to what the function of the Cursus was and perhaps why it was sited where it was.My previous post outlined how I believed it may have been possible to observe the May and August cross-quarter day sunsets on Red Hill to the NW,while standing at the W-NW facing end of the cursus,and Bawn pointed out that perhaps it would have made more sense for the neolithic community who built this massive construct to align it directly to Red Hill beyond,if indeed that was what its function was meant to be for - that's a fair point and would wholly agree that there must be some other reason why it was aligned the way it was.What if the cursus was sited and aligned in such a way that it was actually possible to observe four different astronomical events in any one year?Let me explain - I think I may have gathered enough information to suggest that the cursus not alone warned of the approaching cross-quarter days,but the summer and winter solstices too.
    I mentioned in my earlier post how the American excavation team on Dún Ailinne noticed the summer solstice sun descend between 'the Chair Hills' to the NW;this is something I believe can be seen more dramatically from the E-SE end of the Curragh Cursus.
    I paid a visit to the summit of Dún Ailline on the evening of the 21st of June this year to observe the much anticipated summer solstice sunset behind the Chair Hills to the NW.When I first met Professor Ronald Hicks on the summit of Dún Ailinne several years ago,I misinterpreted what he had said about the solstice sunset and I had believed that the sun would be seen to descend directly behind the mound on Carrickanearla(believed to be the inauguration site of the Uí Failghe kings),so when I observed the sun set behind the gap between the hill of Dunmurry and the mound on Carrickanearla,I was disappointed to say the least!
    However if we're to accept that this solstice sunset observation from the summit of Dún Ailinne was meant to be of symbolic significance(see Prof. Hick's pdf entitled "Dún Ailinne's role in Folklore,Myth and the Sacred Landscape" which can be downloaded from Bawn's 'MegalithicArchaeoAstronomy' Facebook page) to Iron Age observers,then can we say much the same for the neolithic peoples who watched this sunset from the cursus on Long Hill.
    The images directly below show a time-lapse sequence of the summer solstice sunset as observed from Dún Ailinne this year and it is also possible to witness this from the E-SE end of the Curragh Cursus.I think the sunset observation from this end of the Cursus may have been more dramatic looking than that witnessed on Dún Ailinne.Unfortunately it won't be possible to observe this phenomenon for the foreseeable future because the view of the Chair Hills is obscured by both buildings and trees today.

    C8A835AA59F34649908284233E38CCC1-0000372749-0003601816-00800L-A7208D00BB884088AFB59E50D55A8228.jpg
    D21D826985A2436CA095E8F2F519A433-0000372749-0003601819-00800L-369C8F5399704C7589C42AB89875D0B7.jpg
    EC8A1639C16B434D8D5216F7DBB2846C-0000372749-0003601818-00800L-3104E054CEC7450DBFB94F03EA220763.jpg
    279410D809404C4A803F7EB696DDBB77-0000372749-0003602542-00800L-F3C7E4CE3C4449B5BCB7899439F52301.jpg

    The photo below was taken from outside the Curragh camp(unfortunately lower down the slopes of the hill) standing along the sunset alignment from the E-SE end of the Cursus.I've used a bit of artistic licence and placed a solar disc above the summit of Dunmurry hill - Is this what our neolithic ancestors would have seen?

    7A01E0A4F35A4BF4A0B763634E2C1BFA-0000372749-0003602367-00800L-1A3BCF0F05AA45D396E0AB941DEA0695.jpg

    If I were asked if I believed the Cursus was sited and aligned the way it was on the evidence I've given thus far,would I be convinced?I'd have to say not wholly,but it's possible.However,I think there was much more going on here!The Cursus is recorded on the OSI Historic 6" maps(see here): http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,678092,711471,6,7
    The Cursus sits on Long hill(itself aligned roughly East-West) orientated on a slight E-SE to W-NW axis.Some contend it was approximately 1.5kms. long and almost 100m. wide,but I think this is somewhat exaggerated and think it was more likely to be just over a kilometre long and approximately 50 metres wide.The OSI map also records clusters of barrows at each end of the Cursus - Cluster 'E' at the W-NW end and Cluster 'F' at the E-SE end(Ref. Pádraig Clancy's study of the ancient monuments of the Curragh).

    9E67C945873D457BB9EE11A82481C2E5-0000372749-0003602597-01024L-2EB012DFAE834456AED095B42CCFF909.jpg

    There is a possibility that the Cursus may have stretched further westward because there's a significant gap between the end of the Cursus as recorded on the OSI map and the barrow Cluster 'E',but without any other recordable evidence available we must just assume it didn't.However,it would probably be much safer to say that the Cursus didn't stretch any further eastward because it's unlikely the Bronze age builders of the barrows,now belonging to Cluster 'F',would have desecrated an earlier monument that they would have believed their very own ancestors had built and revered.So if we can assume with some degree of certainty that the Cursus did not continue further on up the slope,then why not?You can't escape the fact that Dún Ailinne looms large to the southeast as one walks up the slope towards what was the end of the Cursus.From my own investigations in recent days it would seem very obvious to me that Dún Ailinne was the main focus of attention for those who built the Cursus.Although Long hill is mainly orientated East-West,the hill doglegs to the south as one walks further up to its summit.What this effectively does is blocks any views one would ordinarily have of Dún Ailinne to the southeast.This observation again strengthened my belief that the view of Dún Aillinne from the Cursus terminus was of the utmost importance to its neolithic builders.The yellow line in both images below represents the sight-line from the E-SE terminus of the Cursus to Dún Ailinne which lies to the southeast.This illustrates how difficult it would be to see Dún Ailinne if the Cursus banks/ditches had continued for some distance more eastward.

    D1B6BC7C5C284024AE4D29A0FD55D061-0000372749-0003601794-01024L-E37F55A8634C443DAC7BCD58617FC3C2.jpg
    82620B9D2CE64FABA08586FFB19371AA-0000372749-0003602598-00800L-D352CD8A8D64456EA3770F698CCCB2CA.jpg

    So if the view of Dún Ailinne was meant to be of great importance here,then why was that?I had a sneaking suspicion it had something to do with the Winter solstice sunrise,and low and behold using the 'Photographer's Ephemeris' it did show a direct solstice sunrise alignment from the W-NW end of the Cursus to the center of the hill of Dún Ailinne.Despite this however,I think it's unlikely that the winter solstice sun can be seen to rise directly behind Dún Ailinne from the W-NW end of the Cursus and I think that it's most likely it may be seen to rise up from the bowels of Dún Ailinne whilst watching from the E-SE terminus instead.I've again used a bit of artistic licence with the image below(I've added the sun!:)),but it is a view one gets of Dún Ailinne from where the E-SE terminus of the Cursus is recorded to have been situated.Obviously my theory will need fine-tuning and will have to wait until December to see if the winter solstice sun does indeed rise above Dún Ailinne.

    18C22F3E9FAE4810BA7DABBBC0C667DC-0000372749-0003602607-00800L-9E99B86402094A60BD751644FE24D5C0.jpg

    8E7CF1DD8EF144A6A9AADAAE842171CC-0000372749-0003602610-01024L-BAF0C9E1430A4B10801C67F4E6C96E57.jpg

    The image below shows a view of Dún Ailinne from a position close to the W-NW end of the Cursus.

    D6A7402F0F114C7B8203E5964CDA1E11-0000372749-0003602609-00800L-C9556D36EC8C4382BBB59502A7A47C7C.jpg

    Is there enough evidence here and in my earlier post to suggest that the Cursus was planned and constructed in order to incorporate several important astronomical events?
    There would seem to be far too many coincidences going on here to think any other way!I believe this Cursus was used for ritualistic processions at specific times of the year,namely on the May and August cross-quarter days,and on the summer and winter solstices.

    By the way Slowburner,I'm not sure this Cursus is/was aligned to the Cursus which was discovered on Knockieran/Lugnagun.It wouldn't have been visible from the E-SE end of the Curragh Cursus either.The Wicklow mountains are extremely difficult to see if one was looking eastward from the Cursus.There are trees everywhere on Long hill now which obscure any views of the Wicklow mountains to the east,but think you may just be able to see the very summits of some of the tallest mountains.Christiaan Corlett and yourself have done great work in this area and his article in the present issue of Archaeology Ireland makes for very interesting reading.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    I can see why you weren't back to us sooner - you have been a very busy man! Great stuff, I think you are definitely on to something here. It will be very interesting to see where the sun rises on the winter solstice.

    I'm beginning to think myself that a lot of these monuments have less obvious secondary alignments to other dates and that they may have been a calendar of sorts.

    However the question in terms of a cursus or a huge mound is why build it so big?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,221 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Another great post Bonedigger and thanks for all your work, especially the field work.
    Bonedigger wrote: »
    This observation again strengthened my belief that the view of Dún Aillinne from the Cursus terminus was of the utmost importance to its neolithic builders.The yellow line in both images below represents the sight-line from the E-SE terminus of the Cursus to Dún Ailinne which lies to the southeast.
    We need to be a bit cautious. The absence of a terminal makes it difficult to state with any certainty that the Curragh linear was a cursus in the accepted archaeological sense of the word - whatever that that may be!
    At the moment, we are pretty much stuck with the term cursus but personally speaking, I think it is a misnomer.
    As I said earlier, I believe that the upland and lowland cursus are distinctly different beasts and may have had entirely different functions.

    The term was originally applied by C17th British antiquarians who believed that these (lowland) monuments were Roman racecourses. Of course, subsequent work puts most of these monuments firmly into the early Neolithic. While some of the lowland cursus do exhibit some similarities with the structure of racecourses, there is absolutely no way that the upland monuments could ever be interpreted as racecourses - certainly not involving horse and chariot at any rate.
    The Leinster upland monuments are all on extremely steep, treacherous ground.
    I'm all in favour of calling the upland class in Ireland - 'Curraghs' just to differentiate them from the more sedate lowland type.

    Curiously, the E/W orientation of the Curragh linear is similar to both Lugnagun and Keadeen (and Stonehenge). By far the most frequent orientation of the eighteen or so cursus I have looked at (both here and the UK) is NW/SE.
    We also don't know when the Curragh feature was constructed, although it could conceivably date to the first century; if we can accept Hennessy's assertion that 'Curragh' is a derivation of 'cursus'. Then again it could have been a much earlier feature kept in continuous use.

    (see Hennessy, W.M., 1866 The Curragh of Kildare. Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy, Vol. 9, pp. 343 - 355)
    http://www.jstor.org/stable/20488923


    By the way Slowburner,I'm not sure this Cursus is/was aligned to the Cursus which was discovered on Knockieran/Lugnagun.It wouldn't have been visible from the E-SE end of the Curragh Cursus either.The Wicklow mountains are extremely difficult to see if one was looking eastward from the Cursus.There are trees everywhere on Long hill now which obscure any views of the Wicklow mountains to the east,but think you may just be able to see the very summits of some of the tallest mountains.
    For sure. There is a mountainous ridge between the two, so it is highly unlikely that Lugnagun and the Curragh relate to each other. Equally, the striking alignment of the Brewell hill cursus with Keadeen mountain may be down to chance - or a commonality of alignment in the monument class.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Bonedigger


    Sorry for the late reply again guys!I know I'm making it a habit at this stage,but just couldn't gather my thoughts together at all last week.:o
    Yes,I agree with you SB that we need to be cautious about labelling this monument a cursus,and so will henceforth refer to it as a linear.It's intriguing to hear that many of the cursus you've looked at to date have a NW-SE orientation.Could the majority of these cursus have been deliberately aligned to observe solstitial events?
    I'm certainly of the opinion that the Curragh linear was constructed to help forecast the approach of several important days or periods in the ancient annual cycle.I have a sneaking suspicion it was primarily used to observe and record the Winter solstice sunrise over Dún Ailinne to the southeast (I've yet to prove that the winter solstice sun is seen to rise above Dún Ailinne,but will endeavour to do so this December - weather and job commitments permitting of course!).During excavations on the summit of Dún Ailinne in the 1970's,several features were unearthed which contained materials of a Neolithic date.A curious pear-shaped ditch(feature 281 in the excavation report),which did not match any known house-foundation or any form of tomb;a pit burial(feature 293) which contained a large portion of a Linkardstown-type decorated bowl and a small perforated stone bead;and a pit(feature 2506) which contained a cache of 13 flint artefacts,interpreted as a deliberate deposit of the Neolithic period.Dún Ailinne it seems was deemed a place of great sacredness for the people inhabiting this area during the Neolithic.
    I would contend that the linear was a Neolithic construct and was deliberately built with a direct focus on the sacred hill of Dún Ailinne close-by.Come the mid-winter solstice,the community would gather at this social arena and following directions from their leaders or priests would walk in procession between the banks/ditches towards the top(terminus?) of the linear where they would witness the sun magically rise from the bowels of their sacred hill,a hill where they buried their dead and made offerings to appease the gods and their ancestors,who would help them through the impending harsh winter.Am I talking cobblers here?!I've no evidence to support the fact that I believe the linear was built during the Neolithic,but it's likely it pre-dates the Bronze/Iron Age barrows that lie in clusters at either end.There's also the curious absence of activity on Dún Ailinne between the Neolithic and Iron Age(apart from the deposition of a Bronze Age food vessel in a pit),a gap of nearly two millennia.
    A verse in the Dindsenchas mentions how Dún Ailinne/Alend acquired its name:

    13. Buirech cast from him straightway
    across the rampart(no weakling he!) -
    a stone he cast from his spear-arm;
    and that is the ail in Alend.

    I think the inference here is that Buirech placed the Ail standing upright on a mound that sat at the summit.
    Today you will see three very large boulders on the summit,two look like limestone boulders(although it's possible they're both very weathered granite) and an elongated white granite boulder,very like the granite you will see in the Wicklow mountains.Curiously enough,John O'Donovan's survey of Dún Ailinne in 1837 records only "two rough mountain boulders of considerable size.One of these might be the Ail mentioned in the Dindseanchus as placed in the mound by the hero Buirech......".O'Donovan also records a scattering of stone debris on the summit which he interpreted as a "fort.......much effaced",but Estyn Evans suggests this scatter of stone and the large boulders may have been the remnants of a Neolithic/Early Bronze Age cairn.It strikes me that if there was a cairn or a standing stone on the summit,it would have been a very accurate way of marking a particular day in the annual cycle.I'm not sure how accurate the other astronomical events I alluded to in my earlier posts were marked,and although I don't think it's just a coincidence that they can be observed from both ends of the linear,it might be that they were of secondary importance here and were mainly of significance in religious celebrations at those particular times of the year.

    Forgive my doodling once again but I think the image below can give you a better idea of what I'm trying to convey here.Estyn Evans suggested that a cairn may have sat at the summit of Dún Ailinne and I have to say I'm quite convinced by this!Is this what the Neolithic community who inhabited the Curragh plains would have seen at the Winter solstice sunrise as they watched from the linear on Long Hill?

    601C40779A0543F99D859D6DC9F92E2E-0000372749-0003608598-01024L-1B0029E172EF4F029715FE56F0E457B1.jpg

    Or perhaps,there may have been a large monolith at the summit,but basing this hypothesis solely on verses found in a medieval poem such as the Dindsenchas may be a tad foolhardy!The image below shows the large boulders that now sit on the summit of Dún Ailinne.There's a visible line of drill holes in the large elongated white granite boulder.You can clearly see weathering on one side,but the opposite side shows areas which look significantly fresher,which could suggest it was deliberately broken in recent times.Was this boulder part of a much larger monolith or could these boulders have been used as kerbstones surrounding a cairn?

    9565577C6F5147F39A9467E92BAF7300-0000372749-0003608597-00800L-D26E3F8E5BD84139A973E1B83F3358BD.jpg
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    I'm not sure Bawn why this linear(if it was a calendrical instrument) was so massive.I can only guess it was perhaps a pre-cursor to the smaller and more sophisticated ones we're most familiar with at Loughcrew and the Boyne valley,but I'm not sure?Apart from its uses which I've outlined above,could it also have been seen as a territorial marker?Was its massiveness meant to be interpreted as a metaphor for the power and formidable nature of the tribe who built it.Were they saying to other neighbouring tribes "We are strong,powerful and many - keep away!!!"The Chair hills to the northwest may very well have been a natural territorial boundary(the old Gaelic kingdom of the Uí Failghe lay just beyond these hills) and it's rather curious that the Curragh linear sits on the west-facing slope of Long hill,effectively facing the Chair hills to the northwest.It's not inconceivable to believe that the ancestors of the Uí Failghe were the formidable foes of those who built the Curragh linear.Inter-tribal conflict during the Neolithic is not so far fetched an idea!Recent archaeological investigations in Britain have shown that conflict in the Neolithic may have been commonplace.Hambledon hill in Dorset,and Crickley hill in Gloucestershire,have both produced evidence of such conflict - masses of flint arrowheads have been excavated close to the entrances of the encampments and they believe the enclosure's ramparts were also partially damaged during these skirmishes too.Here's a link to an interesting article in relation to Neolithic conflict:
    http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/features/bloody-stone-age-war-in-the-neolithic.htm

    I'll leave you guys with just one other curious and exciting finding!I've always been aware that the Curragh linear was aligned to Kildare town to the northwest,but didn't really know why that might be.If the north-northwest end of the linear was extended,it would eventually reach Kildare town which lies 5kms. away.The most curious thing about this is that the alignment passes directly through the site of St.Brigid's Cathedral,which is also the site of the 12th.Century Round Tower.A monastery was founded here by St.Brigid in the 6th.Century.According to early medieval texts,it was believed to be the site of a pre-christian shrine to the Goddess Brigid and a fire was kept perpetually lit there by a group of young women.There was a belief that this fire was still kept alight by Brigidine nuns up until the arrival of the Normans!Why would the linear have any relationship with this sacred site?Well,using the 'Photographer's Ephemeris',I was able to see that there was a summer solstice sunset alignment between the site of the Cathedral and the ring-barrow KD022-009(remember that one in my first post?) on the summit of Red Hill to the northwest.So effectively what we have going on here is a linear which can conceivably mark the Winter solstice sunrise and another site which has a very tangible link to it,marking the Summer solstice sunset.So it seems Bawn that this calendrical instrument is possibly larger than we could ever have imagined!:)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Great stuff Bonedigger - really great post. Your research sounds very exciting. Nothing like getting a scent and following it! Regarding the winter solstice sunset - looking at the photo of Dun Ailline from the end of the cursus, I'd personally be very impressed even if the sun set at the 'intersection' of dun ailline with the hill behind it. I'd argue for intentionality then even if there was no cairn to mark its setting.

    Again very interesting regarding the red hill barrow and St Brigids cathedral - here is a link to the Fire Temple in the grounds of St Brigids Cathedral http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/8312/kildare.html. I think you will need to get the walking boots again - see what the view is like from Red Hill to Kildare. See if there is anything that stands out on the landscape at Kildare?

    I was just looking and realised I had visited "The Chair" back in the day. I had totally forgotten! There is an interesting bit of folklore added as well by another poster. Might be of some interest. http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/8310/chair_of_kildare.html


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Bonedigger


    Thanks Bawn.
    That "intersection" between Dún Ailinne and the hill behind was something I had noticed myself,and in fact that's more or less where I put the sun in the images I uploaded.Hopefully I'll get a chance to pop up there this December.

    Believe it or not,I've not set foot on Red Hill yet,but did have a look at the view from the grounds of the Cathedral last week.Red Hill is only 3.5kms. away and I bet the Summer solstice sunset looks rather impressive as it descends behind the hill.

    This 'Fire Temple' sounds intriguing!The temple was believed to have housed a shrine to the Celtic Goddess Brigid.The Goddess Brigid was also associated with the ancient festival of Imbolc,which was celebrated close to the February cross-quarter day.Here's where it gets spooky!I've just checked and it would appear that the present site of the Cathedral(site of the ancient temple) and Dún Ailinne are both directly aligned to the February cross-quarter day sunrise.In reality,I'm not sure if it was possible to see the Feb. cross-quarter day sun rise above the summit of Dún Ailinne from the site of the temple,because some of Wicklow's largest mountains loom large behind it,including Lugnaquilla.Of course it may all depend at what elevation you're standing at?The temple site is roughly on the highest point of a ridge(at an elevation of 108m.) that was called Drum Criadh/Drumcree(Ridge of Clay),which was later named Cill Dara(the Church of the Oak) following the founding of the monastery there by St.Brigid.So if you were standing at the site of the temple on Drum Criadh,you would in effect be looking up at the summit of Dún Ailinne,and it's just possible you may see the sunrise if there was a dip or a gap between the mountains beyond.To be honest,I'm not sure if it's even possible to see Dún Ailinne today from the site of the Cathedral,but I can certainly check that out.It's bizarre what's going on here with all these astronomical alignments!

    By the way,thanks for the links.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Bonedigger wrote: »
    Thanks Bawn.
    That "intersection" between Dún Ailinne and the hill behind was something I had noticed myself,and in fact that's more or less where I put the sun in the images I uploaded.Hopefully I'll get a chance to pop up there this December.

    Believe it or not,I've not set foot on Red Hill yet,but did have a look at the view from the grounds of the Cathedral last week.Red Hill is only 3.5kms. away and I bet the Summer solstice sunset looks rather impressive as it descends behind the hill.

    This 'Fire Temple' sounds intriguing!The temple was believed to have housed a shrine to the Celtic Goddess Brigid.The Goddess Brigid was also associated with the ancient festival of Imbolc,which was celebrated close to the February cross-quarter day.Here's where it gets spooky!I've just checked and it would appear that the present site of the Cathedral(site of the ancient temple) and Dún Ailinne are both directly aligned to the February cross-quarter day sunrise.In reality,I'm not sure if it was possible to see the Feb. cross-quarter day sun rise above the summit of Dún Ailinne from the site of the temple,because some of Wicklow's largest mountains loom large behind it,including Lugnaquilla.Of course it may all depend at what elevation you're standing at?The temple site is roughly on the highest point of a ridge(at an elevation of 108m.) that was called Drum Criadh/Drumcree(Ridge of Clay),which was later named Cill Dara(the Church of the Oak) following the founding of the monastery there by St.Brigid.So if you were standing at the site of the temple on Drum Criadh,you would in effect be looking up at the summit of Dún Ailinne,and it's just possible you may see the sunrise if there was a dip or a gap between the mountains beyond.To be honest,I'm not sure if it's even possible to see Dún Ailinne today from the site of the Cathedral,but I can certainly check that out.It's bizarre what's going on here with all these astronomical alignments!

    By the way,thanks for the links.

    Sorry I was confused there - I thought u meant the sun set in the direction of the cathedral from red hill not the other way around (not that it matters) .
    This picture I think shows the barrow on red hill and in the middle of the photo I think you can make out the cathedral! (the sticky up point is visible between the yellow furze bush) http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/46248/red_hill.html

    The question then is - are these all coincidences and if not what does it all mean? I look forward to hearing more from your investigations.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 608 ✭✭✭Bonedigger


    Hi Bawn,
    Yeah,just to clarify - the sun on the summer solstice would descend behind Red Hill if you were observing from the grounds of the present Cathedral.

    I've not seen the barrow yet,nor what the surrounding landscape looks like from the hill,but I think that "sticky up point" in the background might very well be the Roman Catholic church spire instead?I'll try to get up there one of these days and upload an image or two.

    What's going on here?Well your guess is as good as mine,but I'm definitely thinking the astronomical alignments at these places is not just coincidental.I think what it's telling us is those who were using them were a dynamic and sophisticated lot,but we knew that already!:)
    If I find anything else curious,I'll keep you posted.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 419 ✭✭bawn79


    Here is the (short) list of potential August Cross-Quarter day sites for the 7th August. Hopefully a few people will get out to observe and record some of these alignments.
    http://megalithicarchaeoastronomy.blogspot.ie/p/1_16.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 772 ✭✭✭baaba maal


    Absolutely fascinating thread folks. You all probably saw the recent BBC2 programme on Stonehenge- the use of the cursus, intriguingly using both ends for two alignments to "fix" the location of the Stonehenge monument itself. This seems to be another use for linears.


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