Archaeoastronomy at megalithic sites

bawn79

Hi all,

One of my earliest memories of being really fascinated about something was hearing about the alignment at Newgrange as a young lad.

I've always been interested in megalithic astronomical alignments - I'm no expert in the field and I know there is much debate about them. However you can't really argue about the beautiful yet technically amazing alignment at Newgrange.

I've been working on a log for the last couple of weeks and with the Autumn Equinox coming up I thought people might be interested in it here.

http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

I've been using a facebook page to add updates etc.

https://www.facebook.com/MegalithicArcheoAstronomy

I'm hoping to log all suspected alignments in Ireland and for it to be resource for people if they want to check out their local alignment. With enough people interested it may be able to come up with photographic evidence to turn suspected alignments in confirmed and to see if any pattern emerges.

Also if any has any to add that aren't on it to date please post here to let me know.

Thanks

Witchburner

Thanks man

RDM_83 again

I think Frank T. Prendergast's (at DIT) work might be worth a look if you haven't already seen his papers.
I have the feeling that he's visited and gathered data for most sites in Ireland but a quick google doesn't bring up any links.

bawn79

thanks for that - some of his papers are here

http://arrow.dit.ie/do/search/?q=author_lname%3A%22Prendergast%22%20author_fname%3A%22Frank%22&start=0&context=490738

Frank seems to think that the sites he has surveyed are more related to the moon than the sun.
He could be correct but there is no doubt that some are aligned to the sun as well as the moon.

Ronan Hicks posted a very interest papering on my facebook page, he wrote about observations at Drombeg regarding the type and profile of stones also being important rather than what can only be calculated by looking at a plan of a site. For example at Drombeg there are only two of the stones below the horizon where the land meets the sea, this also happens to be where the winter solstice sunrise occurs.
http://www.academia.edu/3409427/The_Year_at_Drombeg
http://terpconnect.umd.edu/~tlaloc/archastro/ae9.html

I'm not claiming any particular mathematical knowledge - I just want to try and record as many of the possible alignments together in one place.

Coles

'Prehistoric Astronomy and Ritual' by Aubrey Burl might be worth a read. The book deals largely with Britain but still very relevant. I'll post up some bits and pieces from it later.

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

'Prehistoric Astronomy and Ritual' by Aubrey Burl might be worth a read. The book deals largely with Britain but still very relevant. I'll post up some bits and pieces from it later.

Thanks Coles - I have "A guide to the stone circles of Great Britain, Ireland & Brittany" - surprisingly few references to astronomical alignments at the Irish stone circles in it.

By the way the database doesn't have to be only for Ireland - I would hope to expand it out to all the British Isles at some stage.

slowburner

It might be no harm to have a wander through Megalithomania.
There isn't very much on solar/stellar/lunar alignments but as a gazetteer, it could be useful.

Coles

The difficulty is that each cultural grouping had a different interest or emphasis when they laid out their megalithic structures. I think it would be necessary to focus on a specific time period, monument type and geographic region to find coherent information that would cast light on the belief systems of the people themselves.

With reference to the older megalithic structures...

While undoubtedly there are alignments that can be seen from the monuments themselves (or from within the monuments), I have been working on an idea that the monuments might have a further significance within the wider landscape, particularly the more prominent cairns or passage graves.

Imagine looking towards a cairn on a hilltop from the landscape below. Somewhere on the landscape are the locations from which significant astronomical observations can be made in conjunction with that hilltop cairn. It might be the Winter or Summer Solstice, or the extremes of the rising moon over it's 19 year cycle, but it would be significant as a symbol of rebirth or resurrection, or simply as a way to mark the passage of time. What more powerful symbol of rebirth that to have the sun or moon rising from the burial place of your ancestors!

Perhaps there are secondary monuments within the landscape for making the astronomical observations from?

Just a thought...

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

The difficulty is that each cultural grouping had a different interest or emphasis when they laid out their megalithic structures. I think it would be necessary to focus on a specific time period, monument type and geographic region to find coherent information that would cast light on the belief systems of the people themselves.

With reference to the older megalithic structures...

While undoubtedly there are alignments that can be seen from the monuments themselves (or from within the monuments), I have been working on an idea that the monuments might have a further significance within the wider landscape, particularly the more prominent cairns or passage graves.

Imagine looking towards a cairn on a hilltop from the landscape below. Somewhere on the landscape are the locations from which significant astronomical observations can be made in conjunction with that hilltop cairn. It might be the Winter or Summer Solstice, or the extremes of the rising moon over it's 19 year cycle, but it would be significant as a symbol of rebirth or resurrection, or simply as a way to mark the passage of time. What more powerful symbol of rebirth that to have the sun or moon rising from the burial place of your ancestors!

Perhaps there are secondary monuments within the landscape for making the astronomical observations from?

Just a thought...

I think that is well accepted (central cairn theory) Coles - for instance there are approximately 8 wedge tombs in the Slieve Felim area all with their "aspect" towards the Mahurslieve or Mothers Mountain. The Mahurslieve has a cairn on top of it and their is folklore attached to this cairn that their is a cave within. One theory is that some sites are aligned towards a central "omphalos" or naval. For example the Hill of Uisneach could be described as the naval of Ireland. I don't know if you have read the books "The Modern Antiquarian" or "The Modern European" by Julian Cope. Both deal with this idea. I'm sure there are more academic books on the subject as well.


As you say above the various monuments are from different eras and as such could have widely different reasons for their construction.
For me there is no central point on the net with information on where their are potential alignments. So that is the first thing I want to achieve. For instance myself I'm debating whether to head to Shrough Passage Tomb to observe the equinox rising sun this weekend. Unfortunately it probably means getting up at 3am to do so!
I've been lucky enough to see the sun rise over the Grange Lios in Limerick on the Summer Solstice and to almost see the sun set at Knockroe in Kilkenny. I attended the equinox in Loughcrew once but unfortunately it was a cloudy morning.

Coles

bawn79 wrote: »

I think that is well accepted (central cairn theory) Coles - for instance there are approximately 8 wedge tombs in the Slieve Felim area all with their "aspect" towards the Mahurslieve or Mothers Mountain. The Mahurslieve has a cairn on top of it and their is folklore attached to this cairn that their is a cave within. One theory is that some sites are aligned towards a central "omphalos" or naval. For example the Hill of Uisneach could be described as the naval of Ireland.

Sure, but my point was that there would be a point in the landscape from which there would be astronomical conjunctions involving the prominent cairn, not just that the structures would be aligned to other structures, or to a significant mountain such as is the case with the cairns in Carrowmore which are aligned to Knocknarae)

Imagine a point on the landscape from which you would need to be to observe the setting of the Midsummer sun over the Hill of Uisneach. There are numerous such points that trace a line across the landscape but there would also be points of intersection where different 'observation lines' meet that could have special significance. (As an example the point where you could observe the rising of Winter Solstice sun over Slieve na Calliagh in the morning and it setting over the Hill of Mael in the evening of the same day. This could only be done from a specific point in the landscape).

Coles

Here's a great program for looking at the location of the sun and moon rises throughout the year.

http://photoephemeris.com/tpe-for-desktop

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

Sure, but my point was that there would be a point in the landscape from which there would be astronomical conjunctions involving the prominent cairn, not just that the structures would be aligned to other structures, or to a significant mountain such as is the case with the cairns in Carrowmore which are aligned to Knocknarae)

Imagine a point on the landscape from which you would need to be to observe the setting of the Midsummer sun over the Hill of Uisneach. There are numerous such points that trace a line across the landscape but there would also be points of intersection where different 'observation lines' meet that could have special significance. (As an example the point where you could observe the rising of Winter Solstice sun over Slieve na Calliagh in the morning and it setting over the Hill of Mael in the evening of the same day. This could only be done from a specific point in the landscape).

I get you now - however unless mesolithic /neolithic / bronze / iron age man left something there like a stone or post holes it is always going to conjuncture I'm afraid.

There was a thread on www.themodernantiquarian.com about a very prominent standing stone in the mountains in waterford. An irish poster proposed that the equinox sun rose over it from the top of a prominent hill to the west and that this was an alignment. However personally I think that is outside what would be considered an alignment. I do however think that the sun setting / rising in a notch or over a prominent hill while viewed from a monument is (eg Drombeg stone circle)

A recent alignment I read in one of Frank Prendergasts paper that I thought was very interesting was from a passage tomb in Thomastown (part of the Carrowkeel complex) the sun sets over Cairn T on the summer solstice which sounds pretty impressive.

Coles

bawn79 wrote: »

I get you now - however unless mesolithic /neolithic / bronze / iron age man left something there like a stone or post holes it is always going to conjecture I'm afraid.

I fully agree. I have found a couple of interesting alignments over the years but it's an extremely difficult thing to be sure about with the changes in altitude between the horizon and the place of observation. As GIS mapping programs improve it will become much quicker and easier.

slowburner

Intriguing thread and that link to Ephemeris is wonderful - thanks Coles.

I'm looking at a site at the moment where two monuments appear to align with moonrise at the winter solstice. The angle is perfect but the projected line misses the upper monument by a few hundred metres. This makes it difficult to confirm the hypothesis.
However, it is very possible that the alignment was more accurate when the monuments were constructed many thousands of years ago.
Does anyone know of any sources (preferably online) which might help in calculating how much variance would have occurred with shifts in the Earth's orbit etc.?

Coles

slowburner wrote: »

Intriguing thread and that link to Ephemeris is wonderful - thanks Coles.

I'm looking at a site at the moment where two monuments appear to align with moonrise at the winter solstice. The angle is perfect but the projected line misses the upper monument by a few hundred metres. This makes it difficult to confirm the hypothesis.
However, it is very possible that the alignment was more accurate when the monuments were constructed many thousands of years ago.
Does anyone know of any sources (preferably online) which might help in calculating how much variance would have occurred with shifts in the Earth's orbit etc.?

The position of the moonrise undergoes a 19 year cycle (the Metonic Cycle), where it 'wanders' across the horizon and then returns to start the cycle again. An alignment of a Moonrise on one particular Winter Solstice would be unlikely to be significant unless it marked the extremities of the cycle.

The difference in elevation between the point of observation and the horizon could easily introduce errors in figuring out these alignments, although this can be sorted out with some complex sums. The Ephemeris has a function to tell you the elevation at the points of interest, and the elevation angle between them, but it's probably not necessary to go quite so deep in finding interesting alignments.

Knowth would appear to be a Lunar calender and it's amazing just how complex the calculations were. 'Irish Symbols of 3500BC' by NL Thomas gives a fascinating interpretation of the carvings of the 'calender' kerbstone K15, and the other stones in the monument.

Coles

Here's an interesting one. If you were standing at Newgrange at the end of July you would see the sun rise directly over Dowth and set over Knowth.

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

Here's an interesting one. If you were standing at Newgrange at the end of July you would see the sun rise directly over Dowth and set over Knowth.

Did you figure that out on the ephemeris Coles or heard of it elsewhere? I'm currently re-reading Martin Brennans book "The Stones of Times" which is a fantastic account of Martin and his group of amateur researchers discovering alignments at Loughcrew and various others. I've most of them on the database currently.

Coles

bawn79 wrote: »

Did you figure that out on the ephemeris Coles or heard of it elsewhere? I'm currently re-reading Martin Brennans book "The Stones of Times" which is a fantastic account of Martin and his group amateur researcher discovering alignments at Loughcrew and various others. I've most of them on the database currently.

I figured it out using the empemeris while trying to get my head around the 'Minor Lunar alignments' that are supposed to exist between Knowth/Newgrange and Dowth/Newgrange.

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

I figured it out using the empemeris while trying to get my head around the 'Minor Lunar alignments' that are supposed to exist between Knowth/Newgrange and Dowth/Newgrange.

I know that Minor Lunar alignments exist but to be honest I couldn't tell you how to calculate where they will appear. I visited Callanish for the lunar standstill in 2006. It was an amazing spectacle, the moon skirts along the top of the range of mountains know as "sleeping beauty" disappears behind a mountain and then reappears again aligned to the main axis of Callanish stone circle. To see a simulated version check this out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wSCUfp_-as. I haven't watched this in years so I don't know how well it will stand the test of time.

bawn79

There are also apps now available for a smart-phone to tell you where the sun rises & sets from a particular position. Might be of interest.

http://appadvice.com/appguides/show/sun-seeker-apps

Coles

The difficulty is that these apps and other programs assume that the viewer and the horizon are at the same elevation. Unfortunately this makes them almost unusable particularly in mountainous areas. It won't be long before some clever person brings out an app that takes into account these issues and this should make life a little easier.

Here are the equations to calculate the position of sunrise while also taking into account the differences in elevation between the viewer and the horizon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

The difficulty is that these apps and other programs assume that the viewer and the horizon are at the same elevation. Unfortunately this makes them almost unusable particularly in mountainous areas. It won't be long before some clever person brings out an app that takes into account these issues and this should make life a little easier.

Here are the equations to calculate the position of sunrise while also taking into account the differences in elevation between the viewer and the horizon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunrise_equation

Coles

The Sun-Seeker one I have shows a 3D view on the screen of the phone. It shows where the sun transits through the day on any given day. Therefore it will show where the sun sets or rises behind a mountain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwkPv-edUQ4

Coles

bawn79 wrote: »

Coles

The Sun-Seeker one I have shows a 3D view on the screen of the phone. It shows where the sun transits through the day on any given day. Therefore it will show where the sun sets or rises behind a mountain. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwkPv-edUQ4

Wow! I didn't realise that. That is brilliant. I'm getting that.

You have to be on location for it to work obviously? It doesn't help with desk studies?

Many thanks.

Coles

And any chance of 'MoonSeeker'?!

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

Wow! I didn't realise that. That is brilliant. I'm getting that.

You have to be on location for it to work obviously? It doesn't help with desk studies?

Many thanks.

Doesn't help with desk studies but your photographers ephemeris does that (although it would be handy if bing maps was an option also as bing has better resolution for some areas that google doesn't).

I'm not sure if their is a moon seeker - just googled their is one! I'm getting that so as well! No need for calculations.

bawn79

I'm up to 72 alignments on the database currently. I think I will be struggling after this to find many. Although I'm hoping to get Clive Ruggles book from the library and add in his lunar alignments for the stone rows of Cork / Kerry. I've read a few of his papers on them and he seems to confirm them as being the original intent of the builders.

http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

bawn79

bawn79 wrote: »

I'm up to 72 alignments on the database currently. I think I will be struggling after this to find many. Although I'm hoping to get Clive Ruggles book from the library and add in his lunar alignments for the stone rows of Cork / Kerry. I've read a few of his papers on them and he seems to confirm them as being the original intent of the builders.

http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

I've managed to update the database to 85 alignments. http://www.editgrid.com/user/bawn79/Alignment_Database

You can see the potential sun-rise alignments for the upcoming cross quarter day on the 7th Nov - here.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=711448025551380&set=pb.607479465948237.-2207520000.1383154470.&type=3&theater

The sunset alignments are here

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=711451408884375&set=pb.607479465948237.-2207520000.1383154470.&type=3&theater

If anyone has any further info on alignments in Ireland please do contact me - does anyone know if Frank Prendergast is finished his PHD on the passage tomb alignments in Ireland?

AngryHippie

Its a little bit off topic, but Loughcrew has been a fascination of mine since I was brought there by my dad as a kid.

From what Martin Brennan's Stones of Time, indicates, is that Loughcrew is effectively a calender, with Cairns T and L being the only ones fully intact and functional (from memory this is correct also)
I also came across another book by Paul Deveroux, called stone age soundtracks, which examined the acoustics of megalithic structures, and it turns out, most of them resonate at a very similar frequency.

It then occurred to me that perhaps the stone basins that seem to have been present at many of these locations may have a different purpose.

Fill them with water, light a fire outside, put some stones in it, heat them up, and when the sun's rays shine through the light box, chuck said hot stones in the basin = Steam.

Add a chorus of chanting at the resonant frequency of the structure and you may get a pattern of interference, that may or may not look something like this image.

I really want to attempt a recreation of this, especially due to the similarity of such a pattern to many of the rock art (intersecting spirals etc).
Could it be another aspect of these mysterious ancient people, that they could both move megaliths, master the rhythm of our solar system, and have an understanding of the wave nature of sound and light ?

Would this deepen their mystery, or explain some of it?

Coles

Very interesting idea, AngryHippie. I'm not sure how you would research the possibility but I suppose a good starting point would be to figure out if resonance waves can be seen in steam (or smoke?).

bawn79

Coles wrote: »

Very interesting idea, AngryHippie. I'm not sure how you would research the possibility but I suppose a good starting point would be to figure out if resonance waves can be seen in steam (or smoke?).

There is a guy James Swagger (I don't know him or have never corresponded with him) http://www.jamesswagger.com/ who seemingly is writing a book on the "Megalith Acoustic Mystery". He is an Irish guy and seems to have gotten himself onto the whole Graham Hancock lecture tours thing.

I've not read his first book but seemingly he thinks that the knowledge to build Newgrange was passed on to the early irish by foreign black people and it has something to do with the Dogon tribe in Mali in West Africa and Sirius.

However he does claim to have measured all the passage tombs in Ireland and his next book is going to show their acoustic properties.

Its funny was just reading back and perhaps he is the next Martin Brennan!

slowburner

Some work on the acoustics of megalithic tombs was undertaken by Aaron Watson at Maeshowe in 2007 (?) - with mixed results.

In the chamber, the behaviour of sound was seen to be considerably different from that of the outside world, with the ancient stone walls amplifying noise to create a variety of audio effects.

http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/tombs/tombacoustics.htm

It seems unlikely that Maeshowe was intentionally constructed to create infrasound. Helmholtz Resonance is most likely an accidental by-product of the passage grave format, and enhanced by the precision of the stone walling.

http://www.monumental.uk.com/site/research/proj/acoustics/maeshowe.html

Coles

Great link. Thanks.

cfuserkildare

Can anybody confirm if Pre-session has been factored into the age of most Irish sites that involve Sun/Moon worship?

Bit of a noob question i know but still had to ask it.

bawn79

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Can anybody confirm if Pre-session has been factored into the age of most Irish sites that involve Sun/Moon worship?

Bit of a noob question i know but still had to ask it.

No it doesn't(I'm open to correction) - precession only affects the star constellations that rise and set in the "sights" of a monument such as Newgrange. The sun and moon pretty much are in the same positions. I'm not an astronomer though. I've just got a book which is basically "Alexander Thom for Dummies" and it is still proving difficult.

cfuserkildare

Surely if the Earths axis wobbles by as much as 2degrees then it must affect the marking positions of both the Sun and the Moon?

Graham Hancock makes a big deal of this in his books.

dublinviking

how about this:

The Rolling Sun of Boheh

There is a pilgrimage route running from Ballintober Abbey to the summit of Croagh Patrick. It probably extends back east to Rathcroghan, the palace of Queen Maeve, the Iron Age ruler of Connaught. Westport researcher Gerry Bracken was cataloging monuments in the Westport area when he came across an unusual site, known as St Patrick's Chair, or the Boheh Stone which is located on the pilgrimage trail south east of Croagh Patrick. The sequence of photos below was taken in 2000. At the bottom of the page is a more up to date image by Ken Williams.

This monument is covered in cup and ring marks, and turns out to be the only known example in Connaught, as well as one of the finest examples in Ireland. Gerry discovered that on two days in the year, the setting sun, when viewed from this spot, touches the summit of the Mountain, then proceeds to 'roll' down the northern slope. The angle of the Mountain's side matches the declination (setting angle) of the sun at this time and place.

http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/gifs/RollingSun.gif

http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/reek2.html

bawn79

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Surely if the Earths axis wobbles by as much as 2degrees then it must affect the marking positions of both the Sun and the Moon?

Graham Hancock makes a big deal of this in his books.

In fairness I think most of Graham Hancocks books deal with the setting / rising of stars. Leo over the Sphinx that kind of thing.

bawn79

dublinviking wrote: »

how about this:

The Rolling Sun of Boheh



http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/gifs/RollingSun.gif

http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/croaghpatrick/reek2.html

Thanks Dublinviking - I was lucky enough to see this back in 2007 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT-cBNdQY80.

Obviously Kens video is much better!

cfuserkildare

If I remember correctly is his theory not more oriented around the Precession of the Equinoxes?

bawn79

cfuserkildare wrote: »

If I remember correctly is his theory not more oriented around the Precession of the Equinoxes?

I haven't read his books in years - so I'm not sure. Like I said I'm not an astronomer I'm afraid. Just interested in it and with a very basic knowledge.

I guess it also depends on whether you think alignments are high precision or symbolic in accuracy.

This might be of interest for precision alignments http://www.bbc.co.uk/archive/chronicle/8604.shtml

cfuserkildare

I think the Precession thing, like I asked initially is more relevant to the positioning or orientation of things like the light-box at Newgrange.

There are many other monuments around the world with what appear to be light boxes, but do not align with the sun or moons current position.
This is where Precession may be used to date monuments.

Not the best description I am making here, but basically if the position of either the sun or the moon has moved by the currently calculated amount, then quite a few of these other monuments would align, therefor the monuments may be much older than previously claimed.

bawn79

cfuserkildare wrote: »

I think the Precession thing, like I asked initially is more relevant to the positioning or orientation of things like the light-box at Newgrange.

There are many other monuments around the world with what appear to be light boxes, but do not align with the sun or moons current position.
This is where Precession may be used to date monuments.

Not the best description I am making here, but basically if the position of either the sun or the moon has moved by the currently calculated amount, then quite a few of these other monuments would align, therefor the monuments may be much older than previously claimed.

I'm not sure about that cfuserkildare - as far as I can make out precession doesn't affect things that much. For example if it did - then the light affect at Newgrange wouldn't work at all. Like I said - I'm no astronomer. Perhaps we should ask the astronomy section on here and see what they think.

Actually I just searched and this was their thoughts on it.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71210399

cfuserkildare

Quote from Wikipedia

"Axial precession is the movement of the rotational axis of an astronomical body, whereby the axis slowly traces out a cone. In the case of Earth, this type of precession is also known as the precession of the equinoxes, lunisolar precession, or precession of the equator. Earth goes through one such complete precessional cycle in a period of approximately 26,000 years or 1° every 72 years, during which the positions of stars will slowly change in both equatorial coordinates and ecliptic longitude. Over this cycle, Earth's north axial pole moves from where it is now, within 1° of Polaris, in a circle around the ecliptic pole, with an angular radius of about 23.5 degrees."

So from what I can figure, there must be some consequence surely?

AngryHippie

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=c4v4CNCwy8OR8M&tbnid=-ArVUu51a3epWM:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Ftvaraj.com%2F2012%2F07%2F06%2Fdecember-21-2012-the-real-doomsday-part-i-b%2F&ei=5LiCUsa0GIeZkgWRg4GwBQ&bvm=bv.56343320,d.dGI&psig=AFQjCNFDXOenlV6QTj7iFMS2-02Ey76Mug&ust=1384385021191176

Not to objects within the solar system.
ie. the sun.

cfuserkildare

Quote " Not to objects within the solar system.
ie. the sun. "

If the Earth wobbles on its own axis, how does the relative position of the Sun not change?

bawn79

cfuserkildare wrote: »

Quote " Not to objects within the solar system.
ie. the sun. "

If the Earth wobbles on its own axis, how does the relative position of the Sun not change?

http://www.stonepages.com/forum/index.php?/topic/33-azimuth-and-the-precession-of-the-equinox/

dublinviking

Maybe this page can give you some potential answers or at least something to think about.

The vast majority of observable stars are binary or multiple star systems. In these systems, two or more stars share a common focus of revolution and are gravitationally bound to each other in defined orbits. This is such a common observation such that the gravitational interaction of multiple stars appears to be the "normal" mode of stellar system formation...

...Is the idea of a solar companion to our Sun unprecedented? Not at all, in fact there have been numerous scientific publications examining the evidence for a "dark star", literally speaking, to which our Sun could be gravitationally bound in a definite orbit [3]. This alternate dark star is known as Nemesis, and its proposition comes primarily from observed perturbations of orbiting objects such as the planet-sized Kuiper belt object named Sedna [4]...

...Walter Cruttenden of the Binary Star research institute has propounded that a solar companion need not necessarily be of the "dark star" variety. Given the paucity of empirical observations and measurements of the movement of many of the bright stars within our own local galactic sector, it is with some justification that visible stars be examined to see if any may share a common focal point with our own Solar System [5]. At the heart of the poly-solar system theory is a simplification of the mechanics of constellation precession (precession observable) with a more logical model, one that does not rely on a putative wobble of the Earth but instead explains the precession observable with the movement of the Solar System itself...

...Is there a candidate for binary revolution among the visible stars? Logically we could begin with the closest star to our own, which is Alpha Centauri. At a distance of 4.37 light years, it is the third brightest star and, as is common, it is itself a binary system.

Another star that shows evidence of being gravitationally bound within the system and is called Alpha Proxima. Alpha Proxima is 0.2 light years from Alpha Centauri AB, about 400 times the distance of Neptune's orbit from the Sun. This shows that a dual or poly star system does not have to necessarily be in close orbital interaction. However Alpha Centauri lies at a declination of -60°, which is well out of the plane of the Solar System, and as such, has a near circumpolar motion in the sky.

A more suitable candidate would be a star closer to the plane of the Solar System, or celestial equator. Sirius meets this criteria, at a declination of -17°. It is also the brightest star in the night sky, three times brighter than Alpha Centauri and twice as bright as the next brightest star Canopus. Sirius is also the 5th closest system of stars to our own [6]. More significant is the fact that The Sirius Research Group has been recording the position of Sirius for approximately 20 years now and has not recorded any measurable alteration in its location relative to the precession [7]....

http://www.viewzone.com/sirius.html

Have fun

cfuserkildare

bawn79 wrote: »

http://www.stonepages.com/forum/index.php?/topic/33-azimuth-and-the-precession-of-the-equinox/

According to the source the Solstice actually occurred 3 weeks off ie 10th of July not 21st of June as it is now, that would appear to me to be a classic example of the effects of Precession.
No?

dublinviking

According to the source the Solstice actually occurred 3 weeks off ie 10th of July not 21st of June as it is now, that would appear to me to be a classic example of the effects of Precession.
No?

No.

This is because of the imprecision of the sun - moon calendar which is shorter then the solar year, which means that solstice will slip through time. This was the main reason why so many stones are aligned to the sun, because solstice did not fall on the same day and needed to be confirmed every year by observation.

cfuserkildare

Actually,

The calendar which was used would have been quite accurate,

There are 13 moons in a year, which means that the ancients would have been able to plot the movement of both Sun and Moon with a reasonable degree of accuracy.

Also what you just stated sounds very much like Precession.

dublinviking

13X28=364 < 365,25...

every year you loose one day and solstice is one day later....

Arithmetic and astronomical calendars

An astronomical calendar is based on ongoing observation; examples are the religious Islamic calendar and the old religious Jewish calendar in the time of the Second Temple. Such a calendar is also referred to as an observation-based calendar. The advantage of such a calendar is that it is perfectly and perpetually accurate. The disadvantage is that working out when a particular date would occur is difficult.
An arithmetic calendar is one that is based on a strict set of rules; an example is the current Jewish calendar. Such a calendar is also referred to as a rule-based calendar. The advantage of such a calendar is the ease of calculating when a particular date occurs. The disadvantage is imperfect accuracy. Furthermore, even if the calendar is very accurate, its accuracy diminishes slowly over time, owing to changes in Earth's rotation. This limits the lifetime of an accurate arithmetic calendar to a few thousand years. After then, the rules would need to be modified from observations made since the invention of the calendar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar