Coughing Calves

grassroot1 · 26-11-2017 10:57pm

valtra2 wrote: »

My doseing regime is calf's get done 3 times in summer and autumn for worms then everything is dung sampled 6 weeks after housing and usually calf's wean lings done for fluke and worms around then if burden is bad. Cows only ever done after calfing in spring mostly on turn out. Last few years was lei fast diamond because they showed up rumen fluke. Works for me on mixed land of wet and dry.

Why would you dose at turn out? Surely dosing as soon as is effective/possible at the start of housing would be better.
My vet did tell me that a good time to dose a cow is when she calves as a worm rise occurs at calving

valtra2 · 26-11-2017 11:39pm

Two reasons I dose after calling. I calf mostly in Jan Feb so cows are heavy in calf and don't like them up the crush at that stage. Always told that after calving was best time to dose suckler by few ppl. Calves are done 3 times in summer for worms because to make sure they have no worms come November and weaning time. Have went back to twice over summer but by weaning they were starting to cough. Dung samples are taking mostly for Calves but cows done as well so if it shows up as high burden I can do something about it. I only keep Calves till Apr may so once done at Christmas I will not do them again.

greysides · 27-11-2017 1:50am

The periparturient rise in egg output is due to a weakening of the immune system allowing inhibited larvae to develop more freely. Modern drugs mean you don't have to wait for the inhibited worms to become active to kill them, you can kill them at housing.

valtra2 · 27-11-2017 11:09am

greysides wrote: »

The periparturient rise in egg output is due to a weakening of the immune system allowing inhibited larvae to develop more freely. Modern drugs mean you don't have to wait for the inhibited worms to become active to kill them, you can kill them at housing.

It's not the worms I am worried about its the loading up in the crush and getting hurt and losing a calf

Mooooo · 27-11-2017 11:36am

What are lads going with with cattle still outside?, hope to outwinter a bunch of yearlings, would fasinex type product and ivermectin be the way to go. Lad I sold cows too earlier in year said they killed out active for fluke. Testing in December so will dose the cows the day of the reading.

signinlate · 27-11-2017 6:31pm

greysides wrote: »

Why would you dose for an infection you think is viral?

If you need to dose for worms but are worried because of a virus being present then avoid levamisole. It kills very quickly. Ivermectin and white doses work more slowly.

Also, levamisole won't cover inhibited Ostertagia either.

This part confuses me.

My vet always advises against using ivomec on calves that are coughing as it kills the worms too fast.

Instead he recommends levacide or white dose.

greysides · 27-11-2017 11:43pm

signinlate wrote: »

This part confuses me.

My vet always advises against using ivomec on calves that are coughing as it kills the worms too fast.

Instead he recommends levacide or white dose.

It's not just you that's confused, there seems to be a variety of opinions in the veterinary profession too. Most would agree that white doses kill slowly though.

Here are a few excerpts of information sent to me from a pharmaceutical source:

Levamisole is rapidly absorbed following administration as a drench, injection or pour on formulation. It causes an almost instantaneous spastic paralysis in nematodes. In support of the speed of action achieved by levamisole, it has been shown that 87% of lungworm burdens were reduced within 3 hours of subcutaneous drug administration (Oakley, Vet Record 1980).

Benzimidazoles/White doses are slowly absorbed and disrupt energy metabolism, leading to starvation of the parasite. In contrast to levamisole, the speed of action for fenbendazole (oral suspension) was much longer, taking 36 hours to achieve an 80% reduction in lungworm burden (Oakley 1980).

Macrocyclic latones/Clear doses are highly lipophilic and are stored in fat following administration, being slowly released over a period of time. They have varying duration of persistency against different nematodes depending on the product and formulation. Ivermectin and eprinomectin reach peak plasma levels 2-5 days following administration. They cause a flaccid paralysis of nematodes.

However...It has been established that benzimidazole anthelmintics were associated with a higher mortality rate than levamisole when treating for parasitic bronchitis (McEwan et al 1979, Jarrett et al 1980).

And....In a comparative trial where calves were artificially infected with lungworm then treated for patent infection with either levamisole or fenbendazole (McEwan et al 1979), it was found that animals treated with fenbendazole developed lesions in the lung such as peribronchial cuffing with lymphocytes and epithlialisation. Consolidation of tissue appeared to be pronounced, more so than in animals treated with levamisole and control animals. It was postulated that these effects may be due to the mode of action of the drug.

Also...Levamisole does not have full efficacy against larval stages of lungworm and does not have any persistency so diseased animals which have been treated with levamisole should not be returned to the same infected pastures as rapid re-infection can occur.
In addition, the time for development of adult lungworm in the animal is shorter than the pre-patent period, as the larval stages which have not been killed are able to develop to produce patent disease. The continued presence of this parasite is likely to lead to a continued defensive response by the hosts immune system, resulting in clinical signs typical if lungworm infection. Further pasture contamination will also occur as a result of the development of those larvae not removed following treatment.

So, I hope that clarifies the situation.:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

greysides · 28-11-2017 12:04am

And to add, from another source:

Vet 1: In this practice, the adult cattle which we see with bovine lungworm are usually in a dairy herd, and often in milk.Treatment therefore is usually pour-on eprinomectin. This is expensive but carries no milk withhold and is also easy to apply. If the affected cattle are beef suckler cows which are not destined for slaughter in the short term, then ivermectin can be used to good effect. However, I would recommend levamisole, repeated in three weeks time.This is because I have seen cattle become much worse and even die when treated with ivermectin. I believe that the sudden and total destruction of all the larval stages in the animal can exacerbate the clinical signs. I have only seen this happen with ivermectin-treated animals, an effect that doesn’t seem to occur with levamisole.

Vet 2: Where milk withdrawal periods are not an issue (and in more seriously affected dairy cows) my preferred choice of anthelmintic would be for a levamisole-based product which is thought to have the advantage of paralysing the parasites rather than killing them. The aim is to avoid leaving a lung full of dead parasites. By paralysing the worms it is hoped that natural defence mechanisms (for example, the mucociliary escalator and coughing) will clear the bulk of the infection from the lungs. If necessary, treatment using a product from an alternative anthelmintic group can then be given to kill any residual parasite burden a week or two later when, because of the reduced burden, the chance of treatment making the clinical situation worse has also reduced.

Vet 3: For groups of cattle and/or for animals that are difficult to handle, the use of ivermectin in the form of pour-ons or injections could be indicated; as well as excellent efficacy, the persistence of the drug would protect against potential re-infection. In addition, the use of eprinomectin would have the advantage of a zero withhold period for milk as well as a pour-on preparation when considering treatment for lactating dairy cattle. One disadvantage with the ivermectin is the mass worm death and potential for anaphylactic shock in cattle carrying heavy parasite burdens.

grassroot1 · 28-11-2017 12:23am

And now with a query, my weanlings were quite soft(dosed with ivermectin P.O) this back end, I am curious whether it could be rumen fluke or coccidosis(they get vecoxin at 5 wks of age)
What tests should have been done to find out?

greysides · 28-11-2017 1:05am

grassroot1 wrote: »

And now with a query, my weanlings were quite soft(dosed with ivermectin P.O) this back end, I am curious whether it could be rumen fluke or coccidosis(they get vecoxin at 5 wks of age)
What tests should have been done to find out?

Not as easy an answer as you'd wish for...

You'd submit faecal samples for analysis and then bear the following in mind when the results came back:

Coccidia: Faecal coccidial oocyst results should be interpreted with some caution. Only three out of a number of bovine coccidia species are pathogenic. Some of the non-pathogenic or weakly pathogenic species are capable of producing massive numbers of oocysts.
It is also important to remember that the absence of oocysts is not evidence of the absence of pathogenic coccidia. Peak of clinical signs may not coincide with peak oocyst shedding. Multiple animals should be sampled when coccidiosis is being investigated.
Coccidiosis cannot be diagnosed solely on the finding of oocysts and the clinical presentation and history should be taken into account.

Rumen Fluke: Many cattle have small numbers of adult rumen fluke in their stomachs and have rumen fluke eggs in their faeces. Small numbers of adult parasites cause little or no damage. It is important to distinguish between the mere presence of rumen fluke in animals that are performing well and disease associated with rumen fluke.

Adults lay the eggs. Larvae cause the disease. Adults are viewed as pretty innocuous. Larvae cause problems when present in large numbers. The presence of eggs does not mean they are the cause of the scour. If only larvae were present you could have disease without any eggs in the faeces. So yet again, you have to take the presentation and history into account and not treat for rumen fluke unless clinical signs are present.

Signs are:

• dullness
• dehydration
• rapid weight loss
• severe watery scour, which may contain traces of blood

I've seen a case recently where dullness, decreased appetite and loss of condition were the only signs.
And another where rapid dehydration, and quite a bloody scour were the signs. Yet another farm had a few cows that were a bit scoury and had lost condition. One had intestinal casts in the loose dung rolled up into marble-sized soft balls. It seemed to me that the herd of cows weren't in as good a condition as they should have been and the straw in the house was getting dirty very quickly.

These cases are all variations on a theme and not the classical bunch of severely scouring animals.

grassroot1 · 28-11-2017 1:52am

So in summary I should have called in my vet, taken dung samples and ask them to have a look at the results and see from there.(I have been kicking myself for not doing that anyway)
Strangely their thrive did not seem to be affected.

greysides · 28-11-2017 2:14am

grassroot1 wrote: »

Strangely their thrive did not seem to be affected.

Could it have been a change of diet?

Lizard_Moon · 29-11-2017 11:42pm

Fair due to Greysides for tackling dosing on the forum and all excellent advice.

My opinion: In a weanling(s) with lungworm, coughing, I use levamisole but be very careful to dose accurately. Few reasons levamisole boosts the immune system (no refererence distant memory from UCD) Ivermectins, as Greysides says, kills everything, larvae and adults so in a coughing animal this can push them over the edge. The levamisole dose is used as a treatment dose. We then review the worm control program for the group and plan the grazing/housing and prevention strategies.

Every farm is different. If you have coughing calves/weanlings look up what you dosed them with and when exactly you gave it before you call into your vet for advice, or ask Greysides

grassroot1 · 30-11-2017 1:23am

greysides wrote: »

Could it have been a change of diet?

ya maybe it was aftergrass but they were too soft for my liking, kinda disappointed I didnt do something now

jd06 · 30-11-2017 1:26pm

Hi just wondering when your taking dung samples do the labs give you special bags, also how does the postage work, I remember bringing in sheep samples to the post office once , had them well bagged and wrapped up several times ,she could still get the smell and wasn't too impressed, I'd imagine the cattle samples would be worse

greysides · 30-11-2017 11:39pm

Dung samples are best sent in screw-top bottles as gas produced from fermenting samples can pop push-down lids and cause contamination. You will be held responsible by An Post for any damage caused. Put samples in a sealable freezer bag with cotton wool to adsorb any spillage and place with the paperwork in a cardboard box.

Here's the official version.

Hard Knocks · 01-12-2017 8:30am

greysides wrote: »

Dung samples are best sent in screw-top bottles as gas produced from fermenting samples can pop push-down lids and cause contamination. You will be held responsible by An Post for any damage caused. Put samples in a sealable freezer bag with cotton wool to adsorb any spillage and place with the paperwork in a cardboard box.

Here's the official version.

So you can’t hand a dirty glove to the vet & ask does that look ok :-p

High bike · 13-09-2019 5:01pm

Have a lot of coughing this year especially in calves 5-6 Mts old,it's a dry cough.Sucking and grazing away and no temp, what ye think lung worm??

Sugarbowl · 13-09-2019 5:23pm

High bike wrote: »

Have a lot of coughing this year especially in calves 5-6 Mts old,it's a dry cough.Sucking and grazing away and no temp, what ye think lung worm??

Yeah that happens here too every year. Not as prevalent yet but I hear a few yearling heifers starting now the past week. I've used Zerofen on them last year and worked well.

High bike · 13-09-2019 5:41pm

Sugarbowl wrote: »

Yeah that happens here too every year. Not as prevalent yet but I hear a few yearling heifers starting now the past week. I've used Zerofen on them last year and worked well.

injection or pour on?

Sugarbowl · 13-09-2019 5:45pm

High bike wrote: »

injection or pour on?

It went back the throat.

patsy_mccabe · 13-09-2019 7:31pm

If you have being doing already for worms, it may be a build up of resistance to the Ivermectins. A neighbour was telling me he's now using Dectomax (active ingredient Doromectin) as an alternative.

High bike · 13-09-2019 7:58pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

If you have them doing already for worms, it may be a build up of resistance to the Ivermectins. A neighbour was telling me he's now using Dectomax (active ingredient Doromectin) as an alternative.

no Patsy hadn’t dosed them as never had an issue this early before

Coughing Calves

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