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Gave my manager 2 sick certs and she says there can't be days in between?

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24

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    #32
    selous
    Registered Users Posts: 1,373 ✭✭✭selous


    breadbin wrote: »
    Doesn't make sense! They make you take 2 sick days when the place isn't even open?
    Ursus Horribilis wrote: »
    My guess is that it's a deterrent against people making a long weekend out of two sick days.
    tinner777 wrote: »
    They are not all counted as sick days, but I presume you remained sick in-between??

    When you return get a hold of the sickness policy and it will explain why.

    You'll probably need social certs as well from your gp.

    Can't comment on your contract but a lot of new hse contracts will tell you you're contracted seven days a week..


    Company pay when im out sick Probably is a deterrent, for the long weekends, it's been in place long before I joined the company, its a subject of debate among employees, If you've only missed 2 paid days how can 4 be put down on your record, BUT, if you're out on Friday but let them know you're fit to return Saturday, (company isn't open (don't ask me) and you go sick on Monday it's classed as ....... 2 days , confused, yeah.:D


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    #33
    missmatty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭missmatty


    I've had to go back to the doctor before and get a new cert to cover weekend days, I'm also in the PS. It's just the way they do things.


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    #34
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,073 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Even if it's policy, I disagree.

    I'm a manager and I'm aware stuff like this demotivates staff, so I would force HR to accept it.

    I always put staff happiness/motivation above whatever bull**** rules HR want to implement.

    HR always hate me for this but my teams are always good performers, so I don't care.

    Even though you may work Monday to Friday, you are employed for seven days a week, Saturday and Sunday are unpaid rest periods given by most employers (some employees may be off during the week) under the Organisation of working time Act. So, if you are absent from work from a Wednesday of one week to the Friday of the following week, this also includes the rest periods ie Saturday and Sunday so they must also be certified.

    Employers are not required to pay you while you are on sick leave, many cannot afford to so a high percentage don’t. Your reaction seems a bit over the top for a policy which tends to be the norm here.

    I’d be wary of a gung-ho manager who gives his team wrong advice that could effect their job.


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    #35
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Even though you may work Monday to Friday, you are employed for seven days a week, Saturday and Sunday are unpaid rest periods given by most employers (some employees may be off during the week) under the Organisation of working time Act. So, if you are absent from work from a Wednesday of one week to the Friday of the following week, this also includes the rest periods ie Saturday and Sunday so they must also be certified.

    Employers are not required to pay you while you are on sick leave, many cannot afford to do a high percentage don’t. Your reaction seems a bit over the top for a policy which tends to be the norm here.

    I don't want to go around in circles on this, so this will be the last time I repeat what I've previously said.

    Example:

    * You work Monday to Friday
    * The company pays you when you're off sick (so no social welfare or illness benefit malarky to complicate things)
    * You have sick certs for every day (Monday to Friday) you were not in the office
    * HR refuse to accept these sick certs as proof you were ill

    If this happened to someone on my team, I would not accept HRs request for sick certs for the Saturday and Sunday. Why? A) It's not necessary, just tick the box saying you got their sick certs and B) This sort of thing makes people dislike their job.

    So when my team member is confused about HRs reaction, I would tell them to leave it with me. And I would sort it out.

    Now, other people in this thread have since explained to me that the HSE contract stipulates how the sick stuff works (as you say yourself, you're technically employed on the Saturday and Sunday) and it seems there's no way around it, especially as it appears they don't really pay sick days, so there is social welfare or illness benefit messiness.


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    #36
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,073 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I don't want to go around in circles on this, so this will be the last time I repeat what I've previously said.

    Example:

    * You work Monday to Friday
    * The company pays you when you're off sick (so no social welfare or illness benefit malarky to complicate things)
    * You have sick certs for every day (Monday to Friday) you were not in the office
    * HR refuse to accept these sick certs as proof you were ill

    If this happened to someone on my team, I would not accept HRs request for sick certs for the Saturday and Sunday. Why? A) It's not necessary, just tick the box saying you got their sick certs and B) This sort of thing makes people dislike their job.

    So when my team member is confused about HRs reaction, I would tell them to leave it with me. And I would sort it out.

    Now, other people in this thread have since explained to me that the HSE contract stipulates how the sick stuff works (as you say yourself, you're technically employed on the Saturday and Sunday) and it seems there's no way around it, especially as it appears they don't really pay sick days, so there is social welfare or illness benefit messiness.

    If that is company policy and required, that is bad advice from you. Effectively you are putting your team up against your employer just because you don’t agree with standard sick leave policy.


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    #37
    tinner777
    Registered Users Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭tinner777


    I don't know what else to say...

    I'm a manager in the hse, and guess what, if I'm sick I have to do the same thing. If you're in any doubt google hse sick policy.

    It really isn't a big deal.

    They pay out for sick leave minus illness benefit that you have to claim yourself. But, that only kicks in after six days, so in essence the policy is doing the op a favour.


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    #38
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Dav010 wrote: »
    If that is company policy and required, that is bad advice from you. Effectively you are putting your team up against your employer just because you don’t agree with standard sick leave policy.

    No, I'm putting myself up against HR.

    The employee has fulfilled their duty (provided sick notes for the days they missed). If HR cannot grasp this, HR is the problem, so I'm not going to let their stupidity stress out my team. So I deal with it.

    My job as manager is to get the most out of my teams. I have no problem with company policies which make sense (e.g. get sick notes if you're off for a while) but I'm not going to let nonsense impact my teams.

    What you may not understand/appreciate is my style works, is always supported by the decision makers (HR don't make the company money; my teams do), and HR have no real power, so I don't care what they think about me.

    If you want to remain in middle management, be a tick the box manager. If you want to become a senior manager, you need to be aggressive and understand what your value is - earning the company money.

    Again - I'm not talking about the HSE.


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    #39
    tinner777
    Registered Users Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭tinner777


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    No, I'm putting myself up against HR.

    The employee has fulfilled their duty (provided sick notes for the days they missed). If HR cannot grasp this, HR is the problem, so I'm not going to let their stupidity stress out my team. So I deal with it.

    My job as manager is to get the most out of my teams. I have no problem with company policies which make sense (e.g. get sick notes if you're off for a while) but I'm not going to let nonsense impact my teams.

    What you may not understand/appreciate is my style works, is always supported by the decision makers (HR don't make the company money; my teams do), and HR have no real power, so I don't care what they think about me.

    If you want to remain in middle management, be a tick the box manager. If you want to become a senior manager, you need to be aggressive and understand what your value is - earning the company money.

    Again - I'm not talking about the HSE.

    in the hse, wages and salaries dept hold the power, you don't supply the correct paperwork, they will not pay you.


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    #40
    jlm29
    Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    OMM 0000 wrote: »

    * The company pays you when you're off sick (so no social welfare or illness benefit malarky to complicate things)
    .

    I would think it’s very unlikely that a company wouldn’t be claiming back the social welfare portion of a persons pay if they’re off sick for more than 5 days. If the person is employed and paying prsi, they’re entitled to illness benefit, it wouldn’t make sense economically for a company not to insist that were claimed


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    #41
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    tinner777 wrote: »
    in the hse, wages and salaries dept hold the power, you don't supply the correct paperwork, they will not pay you.

    Sure, I'm not talking about the HSE.

    Do the HSE even care if their teams make money? I have no idea how it works.

    The public sector isn't for me.


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    #42
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    jlm29 wrote: »
    I would think it’s very unlikely that a company wouldn’t be claiming back the social welfare portion of a persons pay if they’re off sick for more than 5 days. If the person is employed and paying prsi, they’re entitled to illness benefit, it wouldn’t make sense economically for a company not to insist that were claimed

    I've never worked for company who claims back illness benefit.

    I'm in tech, most of my career in rich companies...

    I don't really want to derail this conversation.

    I understand the HSE is different. And many other companies.


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    #43
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,073 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Sure, I'm not talking about the HSE.

    Do the HSE even care if their teams make money? I have no idea how it works.

    The public sector isn't for me.

    It really doesn’t matter whether it is public or private, employment law and the OWTA is the same for both. Rest periods are legally required and certs can be requested to cover those periods as well as the times you are rostered to work

    You stand against HR all you want, don’t bring your team with you. They will be far more demotivated if HR tell them their team leader is misinformed and that they have to get new certs or be considered awol.


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    #44
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Dav010 wrote: »
    It really doesn’t matter whether it is public or private, employment law and the OWTA is the same for both. Rest periods are legally required and certs can be requested to cover those periods as well as the times you are rostered to work

    You stand against HR all you want, don’t bring your team with you. They will be far more demotivated if HR tell them their team leader is misinformed and that they have to get new certs or be considered awol.

    Can you show me where in the Organisation of Working Time Act it says your sick certs must include your rest days...


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    #45
    brendanwalsh
    Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    Op.
    This is what you do.
    Tell your manager you were medically fit for work for the weekend days and do not need a medical certificate to cover Saturday and Sunday.
    You just so happened to not be rostered on Saturday and Sunday.
    Unfortunately on the Monday you became unwell again, so your second cert covers the new illness period
    Not unusual for this to happen with an ankle injury.
    Think of a footballer who returns to the pitch on Saturday but then his ankle flares up again early Monday morning.

    Hse are a joke BTW. Some basement dweller just causing hassle for you to tick a box on their audit.


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    #46
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I never said it's not an issue (in fact I think I made it clear it causes me issues) but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense.

    I have always done this and will continue to do this. It has always worked for me.

    I think you may wish to read the legislation governing Sick Leave and Pay and more importantly your own sick leave scheme. You should read your own company's schemes' guidelines and rules.

    It is clear to me that you don't understand the concept of continuous sick leave.

    Having been sick on a Friday, you do not suddenly become suitable for work to return when the "business" is closed on Saturday and then unsuitable for return to work on the day it reopens. No GP would certify anyone in such a way.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html


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    #47
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    STB. wrote: »
    I think you may wish to read the legislation governing Sick Leave and Pay. Its driven by legislation and in the case of private companies, their own sick leave schemes. You should read your own schemes guideline and rules.

    It is clear to me that you don't understand the concept of continuous sick leave.

    Having been sick on a Friday, you do not suddenly become suitable for work to return when the "business" is closed on Saturday and then unsuitable for return to work on the day it reopens. No GP would certify anyone in such a way.

    https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

    I think you quoted me by mistake. Did you mean to quote the post above you?


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    #48
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,073 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Can you show me where in the Organisation of Working Time Act it says your sick certs must include your rest days...

    This is the statute relating to rest periods: Your employment does not end each Friday evening, but he two days off are your rest period, you are still employed and capable of working, just not rostered to do so.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/enacted/en/html

    It is up to each company to decide on sick cert policy, there is no statutory requirement for an employer to include one, nor indeed are they required to accept them.

    You know you are on shaky ground when Government services require them and Unions accept that. But hey, if you want to drag your team along so that you can make a point, go for it.


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    #49
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    I think you quoted me by mistake. Did you mean to quote the post above you?


    No I was quoting you for a reason. Specifically. "but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense"

    You believe your job as a manager trumps the sick leave policies of your company ?

    Do you understand the concept of continuous sick leave ? Can you think of one illness whereby a GP will certify you as being suitable to return to work on the day the business closes, and then change his mind and issue a second certificate to say you were unsuitable to return when the business reopens ? Which medical certificate was right ?


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    #50
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Dav010 wrote: »
    This is the statute relating to rest periods:

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/enacted/en/html

    It is up to each company to decide on sick cert policy, there is no statutory requirement for an employer to include one, nor indeed are they required to accept them.

    You know you are on shaky ground when Government services require them and Unions accept that. But hey, if you want to drag your team along so that you can make a point, go for it.

    The Organisation of Working Time Act doesn't say anything about employees needing to provide sick certs on your rest days.

    Why were you pretending it does?

    What do you mean I'm on shaky ground if government services require sick certs but companies can make up their own policy.

    You're not making sense.

    If you're just trying to "win" by muddying the waters, I have no interest in playing this game with you.


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    #51
    the14thwarrior
    Registered Users Posts: 392 ✭✭the14thwarrior


    The HSE has a sick leave policy, and if you work for them, you need to follow the policy. thats the simple fact. unfortunately the manager is right.
    Its one of those things that as a manager you have to manage with equity, else it will be abused.
    abseentisim rates were very high, and in fairness, a massive push has been done to address it. so the HSE addressed it. hence the crackdown on these things.

    to my knowledge, sick certs need to be signed by GP, and not a hospital consultant but i could be wrong on this.

    and in the old days you needed a cert if you were out on a MOnday or a Friday even if it was just for one day, but now you don't. as long as you return to work after the third day.


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    #52
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    STB. wrote: »
    No I was quoting you for a reason. Specifically. "but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense"

    Your believe your job as a manager trumps the sick leave policies of your company ?

    As I have repeatedly stated, if my employer's sick policy is you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work, and the company pays your sick days (no social welfare involvement), then if a person on my team provides sick certs for the days they were absent from work, they have met the company policy. It is not their fault the HR person is confused.


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    #53
    jlm29
    Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    the14thwarrior wrote: »
    The HSE has a sick leave policy, and if you work for them, you need to follow the policy. thats the simple fact. unfortunately the manager is right.
    Its one of those things that as a manager you have to manage with equity, else it will be abused.
    abseentisim rates were very high, and in fairness, a massive push has been done to address it. so the HSE addressed it. hence the crackdown on these things.

    to my knowledge, sick certs need to be signed by GP, and not a hospital consultant but i could be wrong on this.

    and in the old days you needed a cert if you were out on a MOnday or a Friday even if it was just for one day, but now you don't. as long as you return to work after the third day.

    I’ve had them signed by a consultant rather than a GP, (im also a hse employee). Though as an aside, I was told today that the hse only accept weekly certs, do you happen to know if that’s true? (Sorry for the OT)


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    #54
    the14thwarrior
    Registered Users Posts: 392 ✭✭the14thwarrior


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    As I have repeatedly stated, if my employer's sick policy is you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work, and the company pays your sick days (no social welfare involvement), then if a person on my team provides sick certs for the days they were absent from work, they have met the company policy. It is not their fault the HR person is confused.

    thats grand. does not help the OP. you don't work for the HSE ?


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    #55
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    As I have repeatedly stated, if my employer's sick policy is you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work, and the company pays your sick days (no social welfare involvement), then if a person on my team provides sick certs for the days they were absent from work, they have met the company policy. It is not their fault the HR person is confused.


    See those two if's, you need to check them.

    It would be highly unusual that any private company's sick leave policy started and ended with a sentence that stated "you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work".

    You are telling me that if your staff are out for 3 weeks continuously, that you count that as 15 days


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    #56
    tinner777
    Registered Users Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭tinner777


    jlm29 wrote: »
    I’ve had them signed by a consultant rather than a GP, (im also a hse employee). Though as an aside, I was told today that the hse only accept weekly certs, do you happen to know if that’s true? (Sorry for the OT)

    No that's incorrect.


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    #57
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,073 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    The Organisation of Working Time Act doesn't say anything about employees needing to provide sick certs on your rest days.

    Why were you pretending it does?

    What do you mean I'm on shaky ground if government services require sick certs but companies can make up their own policy.

    You're not making sense.

    If you're just trying to "win" by muddying the waters, I have no interest in playing this game with you.

    Dear God, there is no statutory requirement for employees to hand in a sick cert, the policy is defined by the employer in the employee contract. Certs do not excuse you from work, they just explain your absence.

    The OWTA defines working and rest periods, while on rest period you are still employed, ergo the employer can require that the cert covers rest periods when you are fit for work, but not rostered to do so. You really shouldn’t be giving advice to your team.

    What I meant by the public service and Unions, if this policy was not legal, do you think the Unions would stand for it?


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    #58
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    the14thwarrior wrote: »
    thats grand. does not help the OP. you don't work for the HSE ?

    I've said a few times I don't want to derail the topic, but people want to discuss this (my posts), so here I am.


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    #59
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    STB. wrote: »
    See those two if's, you need to check them.

    It would be highly unusual that any private company's sick leave policy started and ended with a sentence that stated "you must provide sick certs for the days you are absent from work".

    You are telling me that if your staff are out for 3 weeks continuously, that you count that as 15 days

    If a person is out for three weeks, and during those three weeks they went to the doctor three times, and got sick notes which covered every day they were absent, then they have clearly proven they were sick on those days.

    You have to be making an effort to be difficult to refuse to accept their proof.

    I'm not going to go round in circles on this with you.


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    #60
    tinner777
    Registered Users Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭tinner777


    OMM 0000 wrote: »
    Your manager's a moron. I cannot stand people like her.

    You provided sick certs for the days you were off. This should be the end of it as you've proven you really were sick.

    Do you have a company policy handbook or something like that you can refer to?

    This is your first quote. You do not work for the hse yet you still call the manager a moron for doing her job??


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    #61
    jlm29
    Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    tinner777 wrote: »
    No that's incorrect.

    Ideal. Thanks!


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