Gave my manager 2 sick certs and she says there can't be days in between?

breadbin

I hurt my foot on tuesday 4th and went to GP the next day. He gave me a sick cert until Friday 7th and told me to get an x-ray. Got an x-ray and bloods done that day too and the doctor in A&E asked me to come back today Monday 10th and she gave me a sick cert until thursday this week.



So I have 2 certs 5th to 7th inclusive and 10th to 13th inclusive. I dropped them into work today and manager says I need a cert for 8th and 9th also even though I wasn't down to work them days. Is that right? I have a cert to cover all the shifts I was supposed to be doing.


What should I have done in this instance then and what should I do now? I work in the HSE.

SandyMac1234

Phone call to doctors reception. Request sick cert for days in between.

tinner777

breadbin wrote: »

I hurt my foot on tuesday 4th and went to GP the next day. He gave me a sick cert until Friday 7th and told me to get an x-ray. Got an x-ray and bloods done that day too and the doctor in A&E asked me to come back today Monday 10th and she gave me a sick cert until thursday this week.



So I have 2 certs 5th to 7th inclusive and 10th to 13th inclusive. I dropped them into work today and manager says I need a cert for 8th and 9th also even though I wasn't down to work them days. Is that right? I have a cert to cover all the shifts I was supposed to be doing.


What should I have done in this instance then and what should I do now? I work in the HSE.

hi, unless you resumed for work on the 8th, you'll need the sick certs to cover the whole period. Pop into your gp, shouldn't be a problem.

Wheety

Yeah that's how it works in the public service, probably private too? If you don't work weekends and you're out sick on Friday and Monday, your cert needs to include Saturday and Sunday too.

selous

We're similar, we can do 2 days on our own sick cert, anything over that is a Doc cert,
If we're out sick on a Friday and a Monday its classed as 4 days and needs Doc cert and goes down on record as 4 days sick, even though we don't work or get paid (it's not open) for Sat or Sun.

breadbin

selous wrote: »

We're similar, we can do 2 days on our own sick cert, anything over that is a Doc cert,
If we're out sick on a Friday and a Monday its classed as 4 days and needs Doc cert and goes down on record as 4 days sick, even though we don't work or get paid (it's not open) for Sat or Sun.

Doesn't make sense! They make you take 2 sick days when the place isn't even open?

Ursus Horribilis

My guess is that it's a deterrent against people making a long weekend out of two sick days.

tinner777

breadbin wrote: »

Doesn't make sense! They make you take 2 sick days when the place isn't even open?

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

My guess is that it's a deterrent against people making a long weekend out of two sick days.

They are not all counted as sick days, but I presume you remained sick in-between??

When you return get a hold of the sickness policy and it will explain why.

You'll probably need social certs as well from your gp.

Can't comment on your contract but a lot of new hse contracts will tell you you're contracted seven days a week..

OMM 0000

Your manager's a moron. I cannot stand people like her.

You provided sick certs for the days you were off. This should be the end of it as you've proven you really were sick.

Do you have a company policy handbook or something like that you can refer to?

Riskymove

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Your manager's a moron. I cannot stand people like her.

actually the manager may well be correct

in parts of the PS for example if you are ill on Friday to Monday inclusive you must provide a cert and it counts as 4 days

pay and therefore sick pay is on a 7 day basis

Berserker

breadbin wrote: »

Doesn't make sense! They make you take 2 sick days when the place isn't even open?

It's to stop people pulling a sickie on Friday & Monday thus getting four days off for the price of two.

OMM 0000

Riskymove wrote: »

actually the manager may well be correct

in parts of the PS for example if you are ill on Friday to Monday inclusive you must provide a cert and it counts as 4 days

pay and therefore sick pay is on a 7 day basis

Surely a manager or HR person can just go "ok grand" and tick the box?

I swear these people are asking for their jobs to be automated. The only thing which is going to keep them employed in the future is nuance.

Berserker

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Surely a manager or HR person can just go "ok grand" and tick the box?

I swear these people are asking for their jobs to be automated. The only thing which is going to keep them employed in the future is nuance.

Use some common sense? They could do that. Most HR staff and box ticking managers will do the above though. Box ticking and following processes gets you promoted.

tinner777

Jesus lads, it is hse policy, the manager is only doing their job.

OMM 0000

tinner777 wrote: »

Jesus lads, it is hse policy, the manager is only doing their job.

Even if it's policy, I disagree.

I'm a manager and I'm aware stuff like this demotivates staff, so I would force HR to accept it.

I always put staff happiness/motivation above whatever bull**** rules HR want to implement.

HR always hate me for this but my teams are always good performers, so I don't care.

RobbieTheRobber

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Even if it's policy, I disagree.

I'm a manager and I'm aware stuff like this demotivates staff, so I would force HR to accept it.

I always put staff happiness/motivation above whatever bull**** rules HR want to implement.

HR always hate me for this but my teams are always good performers, so I don't care.

So just to be clear you want an employee of the state to ignore official policy and can see no reason why this might be an issue?

i love people who think everyone else is stupid.

funny they never seem all that happy themselves, idk.

OP if you are in a salaried role, in public service for instance, you're salaried per week not per five days

it becomes pretty relevant when counting service, accrual of benefits, breaking of service and all that malarkey.

could it be changed from this system if we were to start everything over? probably, who knows.

can your manager do so? nope.

should you just go get the cert? yep.

should your doc have known better? yep.

Ursus Horribilis

They've tightened up on sick leave in the public service so this is the sort of thing that'd light up like a Christmas tree in an audit.

tinner777

There's no big deal here...

You go out sick, get better, then resume for work.
You don't go out sick, get better at the weekend and then go sick again???

The only way the two certs would be acceptable is if the op resumed form sick leave on the Friday and then went back out sick on the Monday.

It is hse policy.

I am also a manager, a manager who knows his staff are aware of the policies surrounding their employment

IAMAMORON

It sounds like your manager is being a pox. Be careful with people who walk all over you, they usually enjoy it.

I hope you get better soon.

BookNerd

You're probably better off having the cert for the two days in the middle.
Illness benefit only kicks in on day 6.
Based on not being sick the two days in the middle, you are not eligible for any illness benefit.
Based on being sick the two days in the middle, you would be eligible for illness benefit.

If you are paid while off sick, your employer may want to (or may want you to) claim the illness benefit you are entitled to.

I would just call the GP and get the cert for the two days.
You also don't know for sure you'll be better by the time you're due back to work and may need to extend your time off.

jlm29

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It sounds like your manager is being a pox. Be careful with people who walk all over you, they usually enjoy it.

I hope you get better soon.

It’s hse policy. Every day needs to be accounted for so there’s no breaks in service etc. It’s probably particularly important if the OP is on a temporary contract. The line manager is asking for it because HR are asking for the cert. HR are asking for it because someone else is asking for it. No one is “being a pox”. It’s a policy, that the OP was probably given when they started work, probably in some handbook that they used to get the fire going one winters evening.
It’s no big deal, they just need to ring the GP surgery and ask for a note for the two days.

OMM 0000

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

So just to be clear you want an employee of the state to ignore official policy and can see no reason why this might be an issue?

I never said it's not an issue (in fact I think I made it clear it causes me issues) but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense.

I have always done this and will continue to do this. It has always worked for me.

squelch666

It's to do with Social welfare and cost recoupment.

A social welfare week goes from Monday to Saturday. There are 6 consecutive waiting days before you can apply for sick pay from S.w.
If there is a break in between splitting up the 2 periods the waiting days start again from the 2nd period and therefore you either cant apply or would need to be out for 6 further days to apply

Once you apply the payment (should) go straight to your employer. Therefore you are still getting full pay but your employer is able to recoup some from social welfare.

As far as I'm aware Sat/sun wouldn't count out of your 'sick day quota' unless you are scheduled to work weekends

OMM 0000

OSI wrote: »

You'd be screwing them over for illness benefit as well so. Very edgy.

I should clarify I've never worked for a company who require employees to claim illness benefit if they're off for a few days. For example, at one company I was out for a month due to surgery and I was paid as normal.

So my position is based on the assumption the employer is paying salaries as usual, even if you're off sick (like the OP) for a week.

Therefore if a HR person is being difficult, it would be because of some internal policy which is a tick the box affair.

channelsurfer2

it would only work if you certified yourself fit to resume work on Saturday and then by some unfortunate turn of events you became unfit on Monday so had to go sick again. Normally you would be back to work on monday and your doctor would have certified you fit to resume work on Saturday. Its what we tell people in my place. I've never seen it accepted that you were fit to resume work on a saturday and then went sick again on the monday. They would query it and send you to the CMO in all likelyhood.

tinner777

Breadbin, it is hse policy. The same policy covers the many thousands of people working in the hse. Your manager is not being difficult despite what has been said above. Fix your sick notes and move on.
Hope your foot is better.

DearieMe

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I should clarify I've never worked for a company who require employees to claim illness benefit if they're off for a few days. For example, at one company I was out for a month due to surgery and I was paid as normal.

So my position is based on the assumption the employer is paying salaries as usual, even if you're off sick (like the OP) for a week.

Therefore if a HR person is being difficult, it would be because of some internal policy which is a tick the box affair.

It's not even a HR issue, it's a policy accross all the Public and Civil Service bodies in the country, but you want to blame someone in HR and the manager for doing their due diligence to follow procedures that have a legit reason for being there? It's their job to do this and just because you don't understand or know the reason for it doesn't make it wrong.

OMM 0000

DearieMe wrote: »

It's not even a HR issue, it's a policy accross all the Public and Civil Service bodies in the country, but you want to blame someone in HR and the manager for doing their due diligence to follow procedures that have a legit reason for being there? It's their job to do this and just because you don't understand or know the reason for it doesn't make it wrong.

You misunderstood what I said. I was saying the opposite to what you think I said.

I'll clarify:

If a company pays wages as normal when someone is out sick, a sick cert is a tick the box affair. So if you have two sick certs covering every day you were off sick, the HR person is being difficult and frankly dim if she refuses to accept the certs.

tinner777

OMM 0000 wrote: »

You misunderstood what I said. I was saying the opposite to what you think I said.

I'll clarify:

If a company pays wages as normal when someone is out sick, a sick cert is a tick the box affair. So if you have two sick certs covering every day you were off sick, the HR person is being difficult and frankly dim if she refuses to accept the certs.

The hse does not pay illness benefit so sick certs are important. You have to claim it yourself. The op did not resume for work as he was sick, so his sickness began on the 4th and will finish on the 13th (if his foot is better) once he resumes.

The vast majority of new hse contracts will state that you are contracted over seven days even if your initial assignment is Monday to Friday.

OMM 0000

tinner777 wrote: »

The hse does not pay illness benefit so sick certs are important. You have to claim it yourself. The op did not resume for work as he was sick, so his sickness began on the 4th and will finish on the 13th (if his foot is better) once he resumes.

The vast majority of new hse contracts will state that you are contracted over seven days even if your initial assignment is Monday to Friday.

Yes I can understand in the OPs situation he probably has no choice but to get his doctor to change the cert to cover the weekend.

selous

breadbin wrote: »

Doesn't make sense! They make you take 2 sick days when the place isn't even open?

Ursus Horribilis wrote: »

My guess is that it's a deterrent against people making a long weekend out of two sick days.

tinner777 wrote: »

They are not all counted as sick days, but I presume you remained sick in-between??

When you return get a hold of the sickness policy and it will explain why.

You'll probably need social certs as well from your gp.

Can't comment on your contract but a lot of new hse contracts will tell you you're contracted seven days a week..

Company pay when im out sick Probably is a deterrent, for the long weekends, it's been in place long before I joined the company, its a subject of debate among employees, If you've only missed 2 paid days how can 4 be put down on your record, BUT, if you're out on Friday but let them know you're fit to return Saturday, (company isn't open (don't ask me) and you go sick on Monday it's classed as ....... 2 days , confused, yeah.:D

missmatty

I've had to go back to the doctor before and get a new cert to cover weekend days, I'm also in the PS. It's just the way they do things.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Even if it's policy, I disagree.

I'm a manager and I'm aware stuff like this demotivates staff, so I would force HR to accept it.

I always put staff happiness/motivation above whatever bull**** rules HR want to implement.

HR always hate me for this but my teams are always good performers, so I don't care.

Even though you may work Monday to Friday, you are employed for seven days a week, Saturday and Sunday are unpaid rest periods given by most employers (some employees may be off during the week) under the Organisation of working time Act. So, if you are absent from work from a Wednesday of one week to the Friday of the following week, this also includes the rest periods ie Saturday and Sunday so they must also be certified.

Employers are not required to pay you while you are on sick leave, many cannot afford to so a high percentage don’t. Your reaction seems a bit over the top for a policy which tends to be the norm here.

I’d be wary of a gung-ho manager who gives his team wrong advice that could effect their job.

OMM 0000

Dav010 wrote: »

Even though you may work Monday to Friday, you are employed for seven days a week, Saturday and Sunday are unpaid rest periods given by most employers (some employees may be off during the week) under the Organisation of working time Act. So, if you are absent from work from a Wednesday of one week to the Friday of the following week, this also includes the rest periods ie Saturday and Sunday so they must also be certified.

Employers are not required to pay you while you are on sick leave, many cannot afford to do a high percentage don’t. Your reaction seems a bit over the top for a policy which tends to be the norm here.

I don't want to go around in circles on this, so this will be the last time I repeat what I've previously said.

Example:

* You work Monday to Friday
* The company pays you when you're off sick (so no social welfare or illness benefit malarky to complicate things)
* You have sick certs for every day (Monday to Friday) you were not in the office
* HR refuse to accept these sick certs as proof you were ill

If this happened to someone on my team, I would not accept HRs request for sick certs for the Saturday and Sunday. Why? A) It's not necessary, just tick the box saying you got their sick certs and This sort of thing makes people dislike their job.

So when my team member is confused about HRs reaction, I would tell them to leave it with me. And I would sort it out.

Now, other people in this thread have since explained to me that the HSE contract stipulates how the sick stuff works (as you say yourself, you're technically employed on the Saturday and Sunday) and it seems there's no way around it, especially as it appears they don't really pay sick days, so there is social welfare or illness benefit messiness.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I don't want to go around in circles on this, so this will be the last time I repeat what I've previously said.

Example:

* You work Monday to Friday
* The company pays you when you're off sick (so no social welfare or illness benefit malarky to complicate things)
* You have sick certs for every day (Monday to Friday) you were not in the office
* HR refuse to accept these sick certs as proof you were ill

If this happened to someone on my team, I would not accept HRs request for sick certs for the Saturday and Sunday. Why? A) It's not necessary, just tick the box saying you got their sick certs and This sort of thing makes people dislike their job.

So when my team member is confused about HRs reaction, I would tell them to leave it with me. And I would sort it out.

Now, other people in this thread have since explained to me that the HSE contract stipulates how the sick stuff works (as you say yourself, you're technically employed on the Saturday and Sunday) and it seems there's no way around it, especially as it appears they don't really pay sick days, so there is social welfare or illness benefit messiness.

If that is company policy and required, that is bad advice from you. Effectively you are putting your team up against your employer just because you don’t agree with standard sick leave policy.

tinner777

I don't know what else to say...

I'm a manager in the hse, and guess what, if I'm sick I have to do the same thing. If you're in any doubt google hse sick policy.

It really isn't a big deal.

They pay out for sick leave minus illness benefit that you have to claim yourself. But, that only kicks in after six days, so in essence the policy is doing the op a favour.

OMM 0000

Dav010 wrote: »

If that is company policy and required, that is bad advice from you. Effectively you are putting your team up against your employer just because you don’t agree with standard sick leave policy.

No, I'm putting myself up against HR.

The employee has fulfilled their duty (provided sick notes for the days they missed). If HR cannot grasp this, HR is the problem, so I'm not going to let their stupidity stress out my team. So I deal with it.

My job as manager is to get the most out of my teams. I have no problem with company policies which make sense (e.g. get sick notes if you're off for a while) but I'm not going to let nonsense impact my teams.

What you may not understand/appreciate is my style works, is always supported by the decision makers (HR don't make the company money; my teams do), and HR have no real power, so I don't care what they think about me.

If you want to remain in middle management, be a tick the box manager. If you want to become a senior manager, you need to be aggressive and understand what your value is - earning the company money.

Again - I'm not talking about the HSE.

tinner777

OMM 0000 wrote: »

No, I'm putting myself up against HR.

The employee has fulfilled their duty (provided sick notes for the days they missed). If HR cannot grasp this, HR is the problem, so I'm not going to let their stupidity stress out my team. So I deal with it.

My job as manager is to get the most out of my teams. I have no problem with company policies which make sense (e.g. get sick notes if you're off for a while) but I'm not going to let nonsense impact my teams.

What you may not understand/appreciate is my style works, is always supported by the decision makers (HR don't make the company money; my teams do), and HR have no real power, so I don't care what they think about me.

If you want to remain in middle management, be a tick the box manager. If you want to become a senior manager, you need to be aggressive and understand what your value is - earning the company money.

Again - I'm not talking about the HSE.

in the hse, wages and salaries dept hold the power, you don't supply the correct paperwork, they will not pay you.

jlm29

OMM 0000 wrote: »

* The company pays you when you're off sick (so no social welfare or illness benefit malarky to complicate things)
.

I would think it’s very unlikely that a company wouldn’t be claiming back the social welfare portion of a persons pay if they’re off sick for more than 5 days. If the person is employed and paying prsi, they’re entitled to illness benefit, it wouldn’t make sense economically for a company not to insist that were claimed

OMM 0000

tinner777 wrote: »

in the hse, wages and salaries dept hold the power, you don't supply the correct paperwork, they will not pay you.

Sure, I'm not talking about the HSE.

Do the HSE even care if their teams make money? I have no idea how it works.

The public sector isn't for me.

OMM 0000

jlm29 wrote: »

I would think it’s very unlikely that a company wouldn’t be claiming back the social welfare portion of a persons pay if they’re off sick for more than 5 days. If the person is employed and paying prsi, they’re entitled to illness benefit, it wouldn’t make sense economically for a company not to insist that were claimed

I've never worked for company who claims back illness benefit.

I'm in tech, most of my career in rich companies...

I don't really want to derail this conversation.

I understand the HSE is different. And many other companies.

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Sure, I'm not talking about the HSE.

Do the HSE even care if their teams make money? I have no idea how it works.

The public sector isn't for me.

It really doesn’t matter whether it is public or private, employment law and the OWTA is the same for both. Rest periods are legally required and certs can be requested to cover those periods as well as the times you are rostered to work

You stand against HR all you want, don’t bring your team with you. They will be far more demotivated if HR tell them their team leader is misinformed and that they have to get new certs or be considered awol.

OMM 0000

Dav010 wrote: »

It really doesn’t matter whether it is public or private, employment law and the OWTA is the same for both. Rest periods are legally required and certs can be requested to cover those periods as well as the times you are rostered to work

You stand against HR all you want, don’t bring your team with you. They will be far more demotivated if HR tell them their team leader is misinformed and that they have to get new certs or be considered awol.

Can you show me where in the Organisation of Working Time Act it says your sick certs must include your rest days...

brendanwalsh

Op.
This is what you do.
Tell your manager you were medically fit for work for the weekend days and do not need a medical certificate to cover Saturday and Sunday.
You just so happened to not be rostered on Saturday and Sunday.
Unfortunately on the Monday you became unwell again, so your second cert covers the new illness period
Not unusual for this to happen with an ankle injury.
Think of a footballer who returns to the pitch on Saturday but then his ankle flares up again early Monday morning.

Hse are a joke BTW. Some basement dweller just causing hassle for you to tick a box on their audit.

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I never said it's not an issue (in fact I think I made it clear it causes me issues) but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense.

I have always done this and will continue to do this. It has always worked for me.

I think you may wish to read the legislation governing Sick Leave and Pay and more importantly your own sick leave scheme. You should read your own company's schemes' guidelines and rules.

It is clear to me that you don't understand the concept of continuous sick leave.

Having been sick on a Friday, you do not suddenly become suitable for work to return when the "business" is closed on Saturday and then unsuitable for return to work on the day it reopens. No GP would certify anyone in such a way.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

OMM 0000

STB. wrote: »

I think you may wish to read the legislation governing Sick Leave and Pay. Its driven by legislation and in the case of private companies, their own sick leave schemes. You should read your own schemes guideline and rules.

It is clear to me that you don't understand the concept of continuous sick leave.

Having been sick on a Friday, you do not suddenly become suitable for work to return when the "business" is closed on Saturday and then unsuitable for return to work on the day it reopens. No GP would certify anyone in such a way.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/sick_leave.html

I think you quoted me by mistake. Did you mean to quote the post above you?

OMM 0000

OMM 0000 wrote: »

Can you show me where in the Organisation of Working Time Act it says your sick certs must include your rest days...

This is the statute relating to rest periods: Your employment does not end each Friday evening, but he two days off are your rest period, you are still employed and capable of working, just not rostered to do so.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/enacted/en/html

It is up to each company to decide on sick cert policy, there is no statutory requirement for an employer to include one, nor indeed are they required to accept them.

You know you are on shaky ground when Government services require them and Unions accept that. But hey, if you want to drag your team along so that you can make a point, go for it.

STB.

OMM 0000 wrote: »

I think you quoted me by mistake. Did you mean to quote the post above you?

No I was quoting you for a reason. Specifically. "but I believe it's my job as a manager to protect my team from stupid HR policies which make no sense"

You believe your job as a manager trumps the sick leave policies of your company ?

Do you understand the concept of continuous sick leave ? Can you think of one illness whereby a GP will certify you as being suitable to return to work on the day the business closes, and then change his mind and issue a second certificate to say you were unsuitable to return when the business reopens ? Which medical certificate was right ?

OMM 0000

Dav010 wrote: »

This is the statute relating to rest periods:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/20/enacted/en/html

It is up to each company to decide on sick cert policy, there is no statutory requirement for an employer to include one, nor indeed are they required to accept them.

You know you are on shaky ground when Government services require them and Unions accept that. But hey, if you want to drag your team along so that you can make a point, go for it.

The Organisation of Working Time Act doesn't say anything about employees needing to provide sick certs on your rest days.

Why were you pretending it does?

What do you mean I'm on shaky ground if government services require sick certs but companies can make up their own policy.

You're not making sense.

If you're just trying to "win" by muddying the waters, I have no interest in playing this game with you.

the14thwarrior

The HSE has a sick leave policy, and if you work for them, you need to follow the policy. thats the simple fact. unfortunately the manager is right.
Its one of those things that as a manager you have to manage with equity, else it will be abused.
abseentisim rates were very high, and in fairness, a massive push has been done to address it. so the HSE addressed it. hence the crackdown on these things.

to my knowledge, sick certs need to be signed by GP, and not a hospital consultant but i could be wrong on this.

and in the old days you needed a cert if you were out on a MOnday or a Friday even if it was just for one day, but now you don't. as long as you return to work after the third day.