Surname change after Marriage

splinter65 · 27-05-2019 10:32am

....... wrote: »

Cos we are not all sheep.

Are those of us that took our husbands names sheep now?

SozBbz · 27-05-2019 10:37am

splinter65 wrote: »

Are those of us that took our husbands names sheep now?

No one said that. What was said is that some people don't follow tradition "just because".

People can make whatever decision is right for them, but we don't need to be told that we've no choice and should blindly follow tradition. Both options are equally valid in my view.

splinter65 · 27-05-2019 10:38am

SozBbz wrote: »

Acceptance of her new ownership?

Why would/should any woman give up her name just to be "nice".

Presumably any new husband knows who he's marrying so if you want a strong, independent woman, then hardly a surprise if she opts to keep her own name and distinct identity.

As part of my job involves helping people to apply for rights and entitlements I can tell you without hesitation that it makes everything easier for the applicant if all the family members have the same name. His name, her name whatever.
But double barreled is tedious and boring.
Sth Asian culture interestingly dictates that the woman keeps her name and the male children get his name but the female children (if they are given any surname at all) will get hers.
It’s a nightmare.

....... · 27-05-2019 11:09am

splinter65 wrote: »

Are those of us that took our husbands names sheep now?

Wow - odd conclusion to come to.

Following tradition just because = sheep.

....... · 27-05-2019 11:11am

stefanovich wrote: »

I just think it is a nice token of acceptance from the woman. It's simpler too.

Itd be an equally nice token of acceptance from the man if he took the womans name. And just as simple.

stefanovich · 27-05-2019 11:13am

....... wrote: »

Itd be an equally nice token of acceptance from the man if he took the womans name. And just as simple.

And the complete opposite of what we have done up till now.

....... · 27-05-2019 11:13am

splinter65 wrote: »

As part of my job involves helping people to apply for rights and entitlements I can tell you without hesitation that it makes everything easier for the applicant if all the family members have the same name.

You just need better IT and systems to handle that issue and make it easy no matter what names are used.

....... · 27-05-2019 11:17am

stefanovich wrote: »

And the complete opposite of what we have done up till now.

And whats wrong with that?

SozBbz · 27-05-2019 11:20am

....... wrote: »

You just need better IT and systems to handle that issue and make it easy no matter what names are used.

Absolutely this.

Just because some systems are outdated, isnt a good enough reason for someone to take their husbands name if they don't really want to.

The systems need to be able to cope with recognizing family relationships on more than just a surname.

I work in IT and mainly with the public sector. The systems will probably never be perfect but we're always working to improve and reflect society. I worked on one recently where we removed all gender references and sought to reflect all sorts of family scenarios for citizens who interacted wtih the system. The catalyst was GDPR but the organisation recognized that society has changed since they originally designed the system and took this opportunity to make changes.

Assuming things will always be the way they are now is a false premise.

splinter65 · 27-05-2019 11:23am

....... wrote: »

Wow - odd conclusion to come to.

Following tradition just because = sheep.

Very poor deflection. Following tradition doesn’t make anyone a sheep.

....... · 27-05-2019 11:25am

splinter65 wrote: »

Very poor deflection. Following tradition doesn’t make anyone a sheep.

No it certainly does not.

And I did not say it did.

I said following tradition, just because = sheep.

People can choose to do whatever they like, but blindly following tradition for no reason is a sheeplike trait.

splinter65 · 27-05-2019 11:27am

....... wrote: »

You just need better IT and systems to handle that issue and make it easy no matter what names are used.

No. Not an option. Most SW applications are made on paper. First time passport applications are made on paper. Housing grant applications are made on paper. Social housing applications are made on paper. HAP is on paper. Nothing to do with IT.

....... · 27-05-2019 11:31am

splinter65 wrote: »

No. Not an option. Most SW applications are made on paper. First time passport applications are made on paper. Housing grant applications are made on paper. Social housing applications are made on paper. HAP is on paper. Nothing to do with IT.

Then you need better processes.

A different way of linking families rather than through surname.

The paper is just a way of getting the info - the paperwork gets entered into an electronic system eventually.

SozBbz · 27-05-2019 11:42am

splinter65 wrote: »

No. Not an option. Most SW applications are made on paper. First time passport applications are made on paper. Housing grant applications are made on paper. Social housing applications are made on paper. HAP is on paper. Nothing to do with IT.

Paper which is then fed into systems. I've worked in some of the areas mentioned and if you think that they will remain on paper in the long term, thats simply not the case.

Peatys · 27-05-2019 11:59am

lazygal wrote: »

Are you going to change your name?

Yes, you can call me Drogon from now on.

splinter65 · 27-05-2019 12:20pm

....... wrote: »

Then you need better processes.

A different way of linking families rather than through surname.

The paper is just a way of getting the info - the paperwork gets entered into an electronic system eventually.

I’m not responsible for the “processes”, the different government departments are. I just help people to initiate and follow through on applications.
In any case most of the people who apply for things are not tech savvy and can only manage paper applications and even then only with someone’s help. It’s way off subject though here so I’ll just leave it.

splinter65 · 27-05-2019 12:23pm

SozBbz wrote: »

Paper which is then fed into systems. I've worked in some of the areas mentioned and if you think that they will remain on paper in the long term, thats simply not the case.

I know that. But the initial application is still on paper. Carers Allowance is 32 pages long. It doesn’t matter to the applicant what happens to the form once it lands on the correct desk. All the joint applicants having the same name is the easiest.

....... · 27-05-2019 12:24pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I’m not responsible for the “processes”, the different government departments are. I just help people to initiate and follow through on applications.
In any case most of the people who apply for things are not tech savvy and can only manage paper applications and even then only with someone’s help. It’s way off subject though here so I’ll just leave it.

Can you describe what the issue is?

You said it makes everything easier for an applicant if all the family members have the same name.

Why does it make it easier? Whats the problem with people having different names?

SozBbz · 27-05-2019 12:26pm

splinter65 wrote: »

I know that. But the initial application is still on paper. Carers Allowance is 32 pages long. It doesn’t matter to the applicant what happens to the form once it lands on the correct desk. All the joint applicants having the same name is the easiest.

What point are you trying to make? Myself and the other poster are saying that systems need to improve (and I know first hand that they are improving, but its complex and slow)

That doesnt change my core point that if sytems can't cope well with families with different surnames, then its the systems that are wrong, not the married women who want to keep their own names.

pwurple · 29-05-2019 1:32pm

stefanovich wrote: »

My humble opinion is that taking the husband's name, as is tradition, is simpler for all involved. Power struggles over surnames is a waste of energy that could be applied elsewhere to better effect.

Which tradition though? The tradition to change name to the mans is historically extremely recent. A blip or fad even.... it's only about 150 years old.
The previous tradition was our original Irish nomenclature.

It is most assuredly not simpler, given the hundreds of independent systems we all end up being set up on with our name as part of the primary identifier. Passports, medical records, universities, careers, visas, work permits, safe pass, taxation, banking, shop services, car registration, insurance, post office, social services, electricity, internet, bins, gas, oil, phones, professional memberships, subscriptions, media identification, access and security clearances, garda vetting, club memberships, social media services, clubcards or promotional registrations, various online applications, health trackers.... etc etc etc. That's just PART of the list of stuff I'd need to change.

Changing all that lot, and the forms and mess that ensues, is what I call a waste of energy.

redcuppatea · 30-05-2019 10:53am

I'm still none the wiser after this thread!

pwurple · 30-05-2019 10:56am

redcuppatea wrote: »

I'm still none the wiser after this thread!

After all that contribution? Jeez. What further information do you need?

You are free to any of your options. Your option 2, Staying with existing names is the least effort and is the 'default' position. No difficulty about it. The rest are fashion choices, choose whatever you fancy.

Option 4, creating a new name is entirely your option as well. No legal impediments to your name, we use a Common Usage system here. It means changing everything for both husband and wife, which is indeed equitable, and there would be legal work involved. It is the most logistically complicated option.

Neyite · 30-05-2019 11:36am

redcuppatea wrote: »

I'm still none the wiser after this thread!

You can be known as both, does that help?

Most of the women I know still go by their maiden name at work & professionally, but on their passports or family related stuff they use their married name.

It can actually be useful to use both - say you might not want your facebook /instagram to be traceable from your Linked in or company directory so you could use your maiden name for the latter and change over the stuff with your holiday snaps or kids to your married name.

So if you are Mary Smith now, you could choose;

Mary Smith (work) & Mary O'Brien (personal life)

You could choose to be Mary Smith O'Brien (if that works) and then your children could be Molly Smith Jones, Sam Smith Jones and could use it as a double barrelled surname or the maiden name as a middle first name.

A few questions - do you like your own surname/ do you like his? and; how does it sound when you double-barrell, ok or a bit notiony? figuring out those might help.

eviltwin · 30-05-2019 12:04pm

You can change your name at any point, if you are unsure maybe hang onto your own for a bit and give yourself time to think it through.

Star Lord · 30-05-2019 1:30pm

Kept my name as I like it, wife kept hers as she likes it.
Both happy with it, and absolutely no hassle.

(Other than parents asking why she wasn't taking my name... :rolleyes:)

redcuppatea · 30-05-2019 1:42pm

Any thoguhts on the hybrid, creating a new family name? Have you seen it at all?

salmocab · 30-05-2019 2:12pm

redcuppatea wrote: »

Any thoguhts on the hybrid, creating a new family name? Have you seen it at all?

That’s to me the worst option, creating new surnames is just tacky and smells of attention grabbing. It also seems like the most work of all options. Just keep the name you’ve had for years, it’s the simplest and your no less married for it.

Neyite · 30-05-2019 3:29pm

redcuppatea wrote: »

Any thoguhts on the hybrid, creating a new family name? Have you seen it at all?

I don't think I've ever came across it to be honest.

Faith · 30-05-2019 6:29pm

I’ve seen it once, but I’m not 100% sure if it’s a name they genuinely use in reality. Say their names are Johnson and Leahy, they’ve made a joint surname of Leajohnsony (that’s obviously not the real names, and their version rolls off the tongue better). If I were going down that path, I’d just pick a brand new name personally.

iamwhoiam · 30-05-2019 6:32pm

redcuppatea wrote: »

Any thoguhts on the hybrid, creating a new family name? Have you seen it at all?

My great grandfather and great grandmother did just that way back in the 1800's . The formed a new name incorporating both surnames

Ronan|Raven · 30-05-2019 6:34pm

Option 2 here.
Wife kept her name I kept mine.
Made no odds to me for her to take my name.

30-05-2019 6:37pm

secondrowgal wrote: »

I'm really interested to see that, in all the replies here, not one person has said that they (the couple) chose to have their children's surname be the mother's surname. I mean even where the wife has not changed her name to her husband's and they go by their own names. And I don't mean in situations where the mother may have been a single mother or similar. I hope I'm making sense - I'm a bit jet-lagged

My friend had a child, as a single parent, that child has her surname. She later married, didn't change her name & her subsequent 3 children have her name as their surname, fathers name is before their surname but it's not double barrel, so they have their mothers surname as normal everyday use.

Pretzill · 30-05-2019 6:43pm

The double barrelled scenario was featured in room 101 last week were the person who wanted to get rid of this particular trend made a good point. If the parents make a double barrelled name when the child marries do they then also add in their husbands to be name - making it triple and so on through the generations.

I kept my single name nothing against my husband's I was just prouder of my birth name, it also solves any hassles around bank accounts, passports etc.

eviltwin · 30-05-2019 8:16pm

Pretzill wrote: »

The double barrelled scenario was featured in room 101 last week were the person who wanted to get rid of this particular trend made a good point. If the parents make a double barrelled name when the child marries do they then also add in their husbands to be name - making it triple and so on through the generations.

I kept my single name nothing against my husband's I was just prouder of my birth name, it also solves any hassles around bank accounts, passports etc.

In our case we gave the kids double barrell and they have chosen which name to drop themselves. Actually one of my kids now uses her middle name as an unofficial surname. It's an unusual set up but what works works.

I don't know why people get so hung up on names to be honest. It's such a non issue.

ChewChew · 30-05-2019 9:01pm

I've kept my name, husband kept his. We have a 4 year old who has dads surname. Doesn't bother me and does not make us feel like less of a family unit. I will never change my name and frankly I dont care about how inconvenient it is to any person, company, government dept etc about me having a different surname to the rest. If I have to bring extra documentation to the airport for my child, then I'll do it. Most children dont need a parent/guardian with them forever.

stefanovich · 31-05-2019 8:13am

I don't see the reason for going against tradition just for the sake of it.

Faith · 31-05-2019 8:38am

stefanovich wrote: »

I don't see the reason for going against tradition just for the sake of it.

So you’ve said, and which has been addressed already. I’d suggest either re-reading those posts or offering a coherent counter-argument that’s more than “just because”, or otherwise it might seem like you’re just trying to drag the thread round in circles.

woodchuck · 31-05-2019 8:53am

stefanovich wrote: »

I don't see the reason for going against tradition just for the sake of it.

I don't see the point in going along with tradition just for the sake of it.

Can we take it that you're a man and that you'd have an issue with your partner going against this tradition? If so, I'd be interested to know you reasons why.

You mentioned a power struggle in one of your posts. That's really nothing to do with it - for women anyway.

I had an ex who had a serious issue with me not wanting to change my name if we were to get married. I found it a bizarre attitude to have. It's my name, my decision. Luckily my current partner is happy with whatever I decide to do.

sassyj · 31-05-2019 8:57am

I can't believe women are still using the term "maiden name", I thought that went out with the arc.

Note there is no male equivalent term, hmmm.

Naming conventions for children and marriages is still nearly entirely male dominated. It's a rarity that a woman's surname is considered for the kids out the family name, why is that still the case!!!

salmocab · 31-05-2019 8:58am

woodchuck wrote: »

I don't see the point in going along with tradition just for the sake of it.

Can we take it that you're a man and that you'd have an issue with your partner going against this tradition? If so, I'd be interested to know you reasons why.

You mentioned a power struggle in one of your posts. That's really nothing to do with it - for women anyway.

I had an ex who had a serious issue with me not wanting to change my name if we were to get married. I found it a bizarre attitude to have. It's my name, my decision. Luckily my current partner is happy with whatever I decide to do.

I actually think changing your name is very strange, if you’ve had a name for 30 something years changing it is an odd thing to do. My wife wasn’t too bothered either way and I was of the opinion what’s the point? I think people are just hung up on that’s what our parents did or expect when really they did it because that’s what was done then and not many care anymore.
It’s also the easiest thing to do.

salmocab · 31-05-2019 9:00am

sassyj wrote: »

I can't believe women are still using the term "maiden name", I thought that went out with the arc.
!

What term would you use instead?

Stratvs · 31-05-2019 9:25am

salmocab wrote: »

What term would you use instead?

"Birth surname" is what is usually used on official forms here.

....... · 31-05-2019 9:39am

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't know why people get so hung up on names to be honest. It's such a non issue.

Its a non issue to you (and to me actually), but some people identify very strongly with their name and it forms part of their personal "who I am".

For me, Im not even that attached to my forename and if people call me by the wrong name but I know its me they are referring to I still respond.

Different strokes and all that - Im sure Ive plenty of other non issues that I get hung up about that others dont.

eviltwin · 31-05-2019 10:01am

....... wrote: »

Its a non issue to you (and to me actually), but some people identify very strongly with their name and it forms part of their personal "who I am".

For me, Im not even that attached to my forename and if people call me by the wrong name but I know its me they are referring to I still respond.

Different strokes and all that - Im sure Ive plenty of other non issues that I get hung up about that others dont.

That I understand. I'm really referring to people who have to chime in about other couples. I've met a lot of people - often quite young strangely enough - who get quite heated about our choice re naming our kids as if it somehow impacts on them.

I don't understand the way people have such strong views about choices other people make. It's usually accompanied by the kind of condescending comment a poster here has made too.

Neyite · 31-05-2019 10:28am

stefanovich wrote: »

I don't see the reason for going against tradition just for the sake of it.

Dowries were traditional once upon a time. So were arranged marriages. Traditionally a woman had to quit working after marriage. Traditionally she was not able to own her own property, vote, or even have her own PPSN number (or the historical equivalent) Traditionally the brides father paid for everything. Traditionally a married couple had no access to contraceptives.

Traditionally, only a man and a woman could marry legally in this state.

Some traditions are archiac, outdated and /or discriminatory.

Bet if you were female you'd see the reason why some women want to keep their own name.

Star Lord · 31-05-2019 1:49pm

stefanovich wrote: »

I don't see the reason for going against tradition just for the sake of it.

I don't see the reason for going with tradition just for the sake of it.

And the only 'power-play' possible here if a woman desires to keep her own name, is your desire that she change her name to yours...

stefanovich · 01-06-2019 6:48am

Neyite wrote: »

Dowries were traditional once upon a time. So were arranged marriages. Traditionally a woman had to quit working after marriage. Traditionally she was not able to own her own property, vote, or even have her own PPSN number (or the historical equivalent) Traditionally the brides father paid for everything. Traditionally a married couple had no access to contraceptives.

Traditionally, only a man and a woman could marry legally in this state.

Some traditions are archiac, outdated and /or discriminatory.

Bet if you were female you'd see the reason why some women want to keep their own name.

I question some people's motives. I know when my wife took my name she did so happily and without question. I know many men would feel that they were not fully accepted if the woman insisted on keeping her own name. I see it as another step at chipping away at the family unit for the sake of the good fight against patriarchy.

Sometimes there's a lot of wisdom in tradition. For instance, this idea of both parents working... We end up with children who are brought up by childminders while both parents work on depressed wages. Surely not good for the child or society.

Star Lord wrote: »

I don't see the reason for going with tradition just for the sake of it.

And the only 'power-play' possible here if a woman desires to keep her own name, is your desire that she change her name to yours...

Again, I'd question the motive. Is it a battle worth fighting at the expense of a harmonious start to a marriage?

Loveinapril · 01-06-2019 8:00am

stefanovich wrote: »

Again, I'd question the motive. Is it a battle worth fighting at the expense of a harmonious start to a marriage?

In healthy, equal relationships, it isn't a battle for the woman not to give up something that is important to her. It would greatly concern me if my husband felt I needed to put my own feelings aside for a "harmonious" start to our marriage. It reminds me of the era where women should be seen and not heard. I am guessing you got married some time ago. The modern world has changed, where women actually have professions and solid identities outside of their husband's. I applaud women (and men) who follow their own instincts and don't do something because society thinks they should.

Wanderer78 · 01-06-2019 8:08am

stefanovich wrote:

Sometimes there's a lot of wisdom in tradition. For instance, this idea of both parents working... We end up with children who are brought up by childminders while both parents work on depressed wages. Surely not good for the child or society.

Funnily, or not so funnily enough, many if not most homes require both parents working, in order to run a home, it isnt necessarily a need, but more a must. The increase in the amount of people working doesn't always lead to the depressing of wages, more complex factors are generally at play

mvl · 01-06-2019 8:20am

having in mind that divorce is a reality, it sounds to me just one of the options would be easier if divorce happens.
anyone considering that when they decide what to do about the surname change ?

Surname change after Marriage

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