Clamped in my own parking space

Mikros · 13-08-2012 7:41pm #1

I'm sure this topic has come up again and again but wouldn't mind some up to date advice. :mad:

Our Management company agreed to bring in a parking permit system and contracted out enforcement by clamping to Apcoa. This was in order to force people to pay their fees i.e. no fees = no permit. The permit itself is a sticker for the windscreen. I've always paid my management fees so no problem there.

So I was pretty damn pissed off to find my car this morning clamped in my own parking space allocated to my apartment. Turns out the permit had fallen off the windscreen and I never realised. Apcoa want €120 for the privilege of removing the clamp, with an additional €120 charge per 24 hours according to their extortion note they left.

The whole thing seems like a scam and out of principle they wont get a cent from me. I don't need the car for the moment so I've just left it there. Any suggestions on how to get Apcoa to budge?

godtabh · 13-08-2012 7:44pm

Have you spoken to your management agent? If you are all up to date and they clamped in error there shouldn't be an issue other than the hassle.

PS its not your space but you do have the right to use it

Mikros · 13-08-2012 7:53pm

Thanks, I will speak to the agent tomorrow and see how it goes. Though when I mentioned that to Apcoa they said they will still look to get their €120 to remove it as that is what they were contracted to do.

And sorry I should have been a bit clearer, I realise it is not "my" space as such, rather I have exclusive use of it.

ANXIOUS · 13-08-2012 8:05pm

Mikros wrote: »

Thanks, I will speak to the agent tomorrow and see how it goes. Though when I mentioned that to Apcoa they said they will still look to get their €120 to remove it as that is what they were contracted to do.

And sorry I should have been a bit clearer, I realise it is not "my" space as such, rather I have exclusive use of it.

If you need a bolt cutters pm justice fighter.

Paulw · 13-08-2012 9:49pm

Trouble is, the clamper couldn't see your permit, so that they didn't know it was valid to park in that space.

It's not their fault your disc was not visible.

In the same way, you have your fees paid up to date, and have your permit.

Talk to your management agent, and see what they can do for you.

Victor · 14-08-2012 8:02am

ANXIOUS wrote: »

If you need a bolt cutters pm justice fighter.

Legally dubious suggestions not welcome.

Moderator

Corkbah · 14-08-2012 8:16am

the thing to also note is that (and I'm open to correction on this) private clamping companies have no basis in law so you are legally able/allowed to remove the clamp yourself (assuming you dont damage the clamp and give it back to them) - you are on private grounds so the Gardai have no authority unless you are damaging the clamp.

No fee required !!

(Couple of the lads in the Motors section have a fantastic thread about it)

Mikros · 14-08-2012 10:52am

Well the parking permit is back on the window - so technically the car is parked in accordance with the regulations. Legally dubious to me is demanding €120 euro (per day) before they will release my car considering I have sole and exclusive use of that parking space (albeit the management company own it) and the car is now parked according to the common area regulations. What legal basis is there for Apcoa to demand a release fee from me?

Will ring the agent now in a minute, but the whole thing stinks. Even the notice on the car is full of threatening language about criminal prosecution for tampering, €3000 fines for removing, even going so far as to "reserve the right to remove the vehicle".

fasttalkerchat · 14-08-2012 10:55am

Search the motors thread for info on how to remove it legally. A fella with the word Kildare in his username may be able to give you a few tips. Before you do so, ask them to remove it of their own accord. Make sure that if they see you that you give your details to them to get in contact with you - this makes it a civil matter and keeps you in the clear.

Gary ITR · 14-08-2012 10:57am

Victor wrote: »

Legally dubious suggestions not welcome.

Moderator

Nothing illegal about it, read my correspondence with NCPS to see how it works. It's over in motors

OP, rent a consaw with a blade for cutting steel

fasttalkerchat · 14-08-2012 11:13am

Gary ITR wrote: »

Nothing illegal about it, read my correspondence with NCPS to see how it works. It's over in motors

OP, rent a consaw with a blade for cutting steel

You could be arrested for criminal damage. This would not result in any court case as it would become a civil matter but it does fall into a legal grey area. Better to remove it without damaging it to be on the safe side.

Mikros · 14-08-2012 1:59pm

Well the agent can't do anything for me. Suggested to pay the fee and appeal it. If the appeal is unsuccessful they will pass it on to the directors of the management company. So I get to spend €120 and a few weeks chasing down the possibility of a refund.

I think I'll take a read of those threads on motors. I hear these clamps just sometimes fall off themselves.

fasttalkerchat · 14-08-2012 6:19pm

Mikros wrote: »

Well the agent can't do anything for me. Suggested to pay the fee and appeal it. If the appeal is unsuccessful they will pass it on to the directors of the management company. So I get to spend €120 and a few weeks chasing down the possibility of a refund.

I think I'll take a read of those threads on motors. I hear these clamps just sometimes fall off themselves.

Do not pay anything. The appeal is dealt with by the same company that clamped you!! Whatever you decide to do is up to you. If it was me I would find out how to remove it 100% legally. For sure don't pay them a penny.

djimi · 14-08-2012 6:31pm

Its not uncommon for them to remove the clamp after a few days; if its sitting on your car and youre not looking like paying then they cant use it to extort money out of someone else. If you dont need the car then Id say your best bet is to leave it there and say nothing and see what happens.

I would also suggest that you get back onto the management company and put more pressure on them. The clampers only work at the direction of the management company. Get the management company to remind the clamping company that they are being paid under contract, and that the clamping company stands to lose out on a couple of grand contract for the sake of being stubborn over €120 that they have no right to charge.

Whatever happens do not pay this fine. You are almost guaranteed not to ever see the money again, even if you can prove that you were 100% in the right.

angeline · 14-08-2012 6:40pm

I would be putting huge pressure on the management company of it was me. After all, they were the ones who employed this clamping company. Of course the clamping company will remove the clamp IF told to do so by your management company.

athtrasna · 14-08-2012 7:20pm

APCOA have had a lot of changes at management level and I have found them to be more aggressive in their clamping in recent months. Even management companies are having trouble dealing with them.

Technically if the permit was not on display, they would be within their contract to have clamped you, the onus is on you to display it. It would be a goodwill gesture on their part to waive the fee, and one I wouldn't expect given my experiences of the new personnel.

Mikros · 14-08-2012 7:49pm

I have no intention of paying 1 cent to them. I don't have any faith in their appeal system either. If anyone is interested they are now looking for €265 to release the car! :eek: I don't need the car at the moment as I have access to another one for a few days so I will sit it out some more.

I would love nothing better to get onto a solicitor and take it to court. I can't think of any lawful basis for them to continue to interfere with my property considering the permit is now displayed. To the person who mentioned criminal damage, have a look at the definition of criminal damage and tell me what Apcoa is doing isn't criminal damage on MY car-

“to damage” includes — In relation to property.... to destroy, deface, dismantle or, whether temporarily or otherwise, render inoperable or unfit for use or prevent or impair the operation of(Criminal Damage Act 1991)

For what its worth - I accept the permit wasn't displayed and I was clamped for that reason. I don't accept that once I showed that I am entitled to park there that Apcoa can detain my vehicle indefinitely and demand any amount of money they want to release it for me.

athtrasna · 14-08-2012 7:53pm

They consider it a hire fee for the clamp and administration costs in clamping and declamping in my experience :mad:

Mikros · 14-08-2012 8:06pm

athtrasna wrote: »

They consider it a hire fee for the clamp and administration costs in clamping and declamping in my experience :mad:

I know what your saying, but I don't see how they are acting within the law in this case.

I have legal title to exclusive use of that parking space. How am I a party to the contract between the Management company and Apcoa for parking enforcement? And on what basis can Apcoa continue to interfere with my property once they've been informed I am entitled to park there? Irrespective of charges or fees.

Wrong forum maybe!

Paulw · 14-08-2012 8:33pm

Mikros wrote: »

I have legal title to exclusive use of that parking space. How am I a party to the contract between the Management company and Apcoa for parking enforcement? And on what basis can Apcoa continue to interfere with my property once they've been informed I am entitled to park there?

You are party because you are a member of the management company, and the management company have contracted APCOA to enforce parking.

The fact that your permit wasn't on display gave them the authority to clamp. The fact that you now have the permit visible doesn't negate the fact that it was not visible at time of clamping. They would have taken photos of that.

It's a mess of a situation you are in.

Mikros · 14-08-2012 8:55pm

Paulw wrote: »

You are party because you are a member of the management company, and the management company have contracted APCOA to enforce parking.

The fact that your permit wasn't on display gave them the authority to clamp. The fact that you now have the permit visible doesn't negate the fact that it was not visible at time of clamping. They would have taken photos of that.

It's a mess of a situation you are in.

For the sake of discussion -

My membership of the management company is separate to the ownership of my car. Any contract in place between the management company and Apcoa cannot supersede my separate property rights. Apcoa can bill for the release fee but they cannot hold my car in lieu because they have no lawful claim on it.

A mess indeed. I will try again tomorrow but otherwise I will have no option but to remove it myself. Can't afford the €360 they will be looking for by then.

miller50841 · 14-08-2012 9:09pm

It's the same company that Dun Laoghaire co co use to enforce parking and you will not win on appeal.

I was parked on a side road to unload coal out of my jeep and bringing into girlfriends parents house now I understand I was parked on a double yellow but there were gas works been carried out and no parking spaces due to this and as coal weighs 40kg a bag I had 3 so parking far away was not an option anyway was out back came back out and ticket on window. Appealed it and they sent an email with pics of jeep and said I lost the appeal.

I have seen them at work and they are very sly they have the ticket printed before they even come into view usually hiding behind the corner.

miller50841 · 14-08-2012 9:10pm

Mikros wrote: »

For the sake of discussion -

My membership of the management company is separate to the ownership of my car. Any contract in place between the management company and Apcoa cannot supersede my separate property rights. Apcoa can bill for the release fee but they cannot hold my car in lieu because they have no lawful claim on it.

A mess indeed. I will try again tomorrow but otherwise I will have no option but to remove it myself. Can't afford the €360 they will be looking for by then.

Do you know anyone with a transporter truck cause you could get it picked up take clamp off without damage and leave back.

Mikros · 14-08-2012 9:17pm

miller50841 wrote: »

Do you know anyone with a transporter truck cause you could get it picked up take clamp off without damage and leave back.

I'm pretty sure the chain goes through the wishbone of the car. Lifting it up won't help much. I know you can get the wheel hub off and slide the clamp off but that's a little beyond my mechanical skills.

The problem is getting a bit more urgent now... I need the car for Thursday morning

miller50841 · 14-08-2012 9:21pm

Mikros wrote: »

I'm pretty sure the chain goes through the wishbone of the car. Lifting it up won't help much. I know you can get the wheel hub off and slide the clamp off but that's a little beyond my mechanical skills.

The problem is getting a bit more urgent now... I need the car for Thursday morning

It does but a mechanic would have no problem striping that down or get a replacement chain the same as on clamp and do as stated above.

kkelliher · 14-08-2012 10:01pm

I could be wrong but as far as i am aware the clampers pay the management company a yearly fee for right to clamp and they then get the monies from any clamping charges therefore there is nor reason for them to payout on appeals.

This is a very grey area as when you purchased the property and were given exclusive use of a named space you have a contract between you and the man co for thos, so where does it give them the right to clamp you for use of the same space? there is a clause to allow man co to bring in new rules but i dont believe they can uncontract your agreement on the use of the space without your expess agreement

RATM · 14-08-2012 10:03pm

OP I understand your frustration.

There is nothing I can help you with in terms of getting the clamp off. However I'd just like to point out that you have an opportunity here to take a test case against clamping on private property and get it deemed illegal once and for all (thus doing a lot of people in this nation a favour)

Follow this link and go to page 30
http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/march2011.pdf

It is an article by a barrister called Dermot Sheehan. Basically it says that under Irish law a contract cannot be entered into by use of a sign and that is how clamping on private grounds occurs.

As he has expertise in this arena Dermot Sheehan would be the ideal person to engage. But you can't engage a barrister yourself, you must instruct a solicitor to do so. There are plenty of solicitors that would take a case like this on a no win no fee, especially as there is a lack of legal work about at the moment.

The case seems to me to be a cut and shut one, that barrister has identified the exact section of law that the clampers are breaking. It is just a matter of someone taking a case to get it sorted and then all their contracts for clamping in the grounds of apartments will become void overnight.

Pa Dee · 14-08-2012 10:05pm

Saw a couple of lads remove a clamp today with a hammer. 2 mins job done ...

Motorist · 14-08-2012 10:05pm

APCOA are ruthless scumbags. The management company are more at fault though for hiring APCOA in the first place. WYSE management company have a history of doing business with them. Just to forewarn you, you will be told to PLEASE F OFF if you approach WYSE or go through APCOA's "appeal process".

This was great news though ...http://www.thejournal.ie/12-jobs-lost-as-clamping-ends-in-cork-319119-Jan2012/

Our man in Havana · 14-08-2012 10:05pm

The problem is the clampers would simply settle the case.

kkelliher · 14-08-2012 10:20pm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The problem is the clampers would simply settle the case.

They can only settle if the other party agrees to the settlement. If you want your day in court on principal you can have it but it would not get a good reaction from the judge if you were offered what you claimed

fasttalkerchat · 14-08-2012 10:25pm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The problem is the clampers would simply settle the case.

How much would they settle for? I would want over a grand to go to all that hassle and they can't be seen to settle for that or everyone would get clamped on purpose!

Our man in Havana · 14-08-2012 10:28pm

kkelliher wrote: »

They can only settle if the other party agrees to the settlement. If you want your day in court on principal you can have it but it would not get a good reaction from the judge if you were offered what you claimed

The clampers would simply lodge a sum of money with the court. If you do not beat the lodgement you are stuck paying all the costs both yours and theirs.

athtrasna · 14-08-2012 10:28pm

kkelliher wrote: »

I could be wrong but as far as i am aware the clampers pay the management company a yearly fee for right to clamp and they then get the monies from any clamping charges therefore there is nor reason for them to payout on appeals.

Not true! Our MC used to pay APCOA to provide the service, recently they increased the release fee but don't charge the MC any more.

Motorist wrote: »

APCOA are ruthless scumbags. The management company are more at fault though for hiring APCOA in the first place

We did a lot of research and APCOA were the best of a bad lot. No MC brings in clamping by choice, money is not made by the management company (contrary to quoted post above) so there are generally only two reasons for bringing it in. Either to prevent cars being abandoned here there and everywhere (generally at gable ends or directly outside front doors) as in our development, or as a way of forcing owners to pay their management fees as in the case in the OP's development.

Motorist · 14-08-2012 10:34pm

athtrasna wrote: »

We did a lot of research and APCOA were the best of a bad lot. No MC brings in clamping by choice, money is not made by the management company (contrary to quoted post above) so there are generally only two reasons for bringing it in. Either to prevent cars being abandoned here there and everywhere (generally at gable ends or directly outside front doors) as in our development, or as a way of forcing owners to pay their management fees as in the case in the OP's development.

Really, what research was done? Did how they target people come into play, or was it just all about getting the cheapest scumbags on offer?

Our man in Havana · 14-08-2012 10:39pm

Also do management companies realise that they can be held jointly liable for the clampers actions?

Mikros · 14-08-2012 10:45pm

RATM wrote: »

OP I understand your frustration.

Follow this link and go to page 30
http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/march2011.pdf

It is just a matter of someone taking a case to get it sorted and then all their contracts for clamping in the grounds of apartments will become void overnight.

Thank you for that. Between the general legal issues in that article and the fact that it is "my" parking space I think there is a strong case to be made. Unfortunately I need the car for Thursday!

I will be raising the issue again with the Management Company - this situation should simply not be allowed happen for a bona fide mistake by a resident who has paid their fees. It's not good enough to just wash their hands of it. Apcoa are engaging in simple extortion - the €120 charge per 24 hours cannot be justified.

I may ultimately have to pay the charge tomorrow, appeal and if (when) not successful talk to a solicitor.

Greenmachine · 14-08-2012 10:46pm

Clamp the clampers that is what I say. They are Scum, of the same order as loan sharks. Regulation in this area is long over due. If they can sort out security licenses, there should be possilbility for licensing this. Release fee should be no more than €40.
€120 is bull****. Especially when they don't have a legal basis.

Our man in Havana · 14-08-2012 10:47pm

Why appeal? Go straight to a solicitor.

athtrasna · 14-08-2012 10:52pm

Motorist wrote: »

Really, what research was done? Did how they target people come into play, or was it just all about getting the cheapest scumbags on offer?

There are two services in the area, APCOA...though it wasn't APCOA when we hired them, it was something else and they got bought out by APCOA, and NCPS. We compared release fee, reaction time and reports from other developments which used the companies.

Like I said, there has been a change in the management of the company in the last few months and there has been a huge change in how aggressive they are.

Ideally we wouldn't have clamping, but we had to bring it in for safety reasons. We hired a reputable company, like I said, they were bought out. They have a very strict remit in our development, they can only clamp vehicles which are not parked in spaces, or vehicles prohibited by leases. The first thing I ask anyone who arrives at my door is if they are parked in a space (we don't have allocated parking), and get them to do so if they aren't because APCOA patrols have definitely increased in frequency.

At no point did we look for "scumbags". I'm a director of our management company, as an owner. I'm also a resident and it's all about making the development a safer place, in our case this was the reason we proposed clamping at an AGM and got it implemented.

Dionysius2 · 14-08-2012 10:53pm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Why appeal? Go straight to a solicitor.

I agree. Do not pay under any circumstances. Try to find another solution for Thursday.

djimi · 14-08-2012 10:57pm

athtrasna wrote: »

Technically if the permit was not on display, they would be within their contract to have clamped you, the onus is on you to display it. It would be a goodwill gesture on their part to waive the fee, and one I wouldn't expect given my experiences of the new personnel.

While they might have been within their rights to clamp initially due to the OP not having their permit on display, the minute they learned that the OP was parked in the space legally they should have had someone out to remove the clamp. One phone call from the management company should have had the matter cleared up in an hour. The management company hire clampers to deal with cars who are parked illegally and should not be parked there. They have no right to extort money from those who are allowed to park there, regardless of whether or not there is a permit in view or whatever.

Motorist · 14-08-2012 10:57pm

athtrasna wrote: »

Not true! Our MC used to pay APCOA to provide the service, recently they increased the release fee but don't charge the MC any more.

We did a lot of research and APCOA were the best of a bad lot. No MC brings in clamping by choice, money is not made by the management company (contrary to quoted post above) so there are generally only two reasons for bringing it in. .

athtrasna wrote: »

There are two services in the area, APCOA...though it wasn't APCOA when we hired them, it was something else and they got bought out by APCOA, and NCPS. We compared release fee, reaction time and reports from other developments which used the companies.

Like I said, there has been a change in the management of the company in the last few months and there has been a huge change in how aggressive they are.

Ideally we wouldn't have clamping, but we had to bring it in for safety reasons. We hired a reputable company, like I said, they were bought out. They have a very strict remit in our development, they can only clamp vehicles which are not parked in spaces, or vehicles prohibited by leases.
.

You're at sea. One minute you're defending APCOA, the next you're admitting that they are aggressive and conceding that you didn't hire them, that the old outfit that ran clamping was bought out. The fact remains, APCOA are a bunch of ruthless scumbags whose only motive is profit. I hope perspective tenants are mindful of what clamping company their management company has decided to go with.

In the OP's case, he would have registered his car reg plate with the clamping company. Any basic check would have revealed that he was paying for his parking spot and had a valid permit. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the patrol recognised his car, knew he was genuine but saw a way to screw him for €120.

djimi · 14-08-2012 10:59pm

Mikros wrote: »

I may ultimately have to pay the charge tomorrow, appeal and if (when) not successful talk to a solicitor.

If you give them a penny then you a fool. They have no right to a cent of your money, and if you pay the "fine" then you will never see the money again.

Our man in Havana · 14-08-2012 11:01pm

We hired a reputable company

Reputable and clampers are mutually exclusive terms.

RATM · 14-08-2012 11:06pm

Mikros wrote: »

Thank you for that. Between the general legal issues in that article and the fact that it is "my" parking space I think there is a strong case to be made. Unfortunately I need the car for Thursday!

I will be raising the issue again with the Management Company - this situation should simply not be allowed happen for a bona fide mistake by a resident who has paid their fees. It's not good enough to just wash their hands of it. Apcoa are engaging in simple extortion - the €120 charge per 24 hours cannot be justified.

I may ultimately have to pay the charge tomorrow, appeal and if (when) not successful talk to a solicitor.

Fair enough. But I would also advise avoiding their appeals service- it is not as independent as they claim. If you were willing to go all the way to court and take a test case then I am sure people here on Boards would chip in for it- if others were up for it I would gladly spend €50 for a chance to see clamping on private property made illegal for once and for all.

I'm sure others over on the Motors forum feel the same. We have the legal basis for it and that barrister seems to know what he is talking about. It is just a matter of taking the test case and winning it, once it is won it would then attract national media attention and from then on in everyone would know that clamping on private property is illegal, including the clampers.

Motorist · 14-08-2012 11:07pm

djimi wrote: »

If you give them a penny then you a fool. They have no right to a cent of your money, and if you pay the "fine" then you will never see the money again.

I would agree with this. If you are paying with the thought in your mind that there is a tiny chance you will be successful on appeal, you should know that you 100% will not be. There is not a snowballs chance in hell APCOA will give you your money back. Your circumstances are extremely genuine and you pay for your space, you have a valid permit - but APCOA won't give a flying fluck about this. And you will feel like a complete mug when you hand them €120.

Nedser101 · 14-08-2012 11:17pm

Get it cut off ,!

jd · 14-08-2012 11:26pm

This is a bit mad. The clampers shouldn't clamp cars parked in assigned spaces unless
a) car is parked in another's assigned space (and a complaint has been made)
b) licence to park has been withdrawn due to refusal to pay service charges..

athtrasna · 14-08-2012 11:48pm

Motorist wrote: »

You're at sea. One minute you're defending APCOA, the next you're admitting that they are aggressive and conceding that you didn't hire them, that the old outfit that ran clamping was bought out. The fact remains, APCOA are a bunch of ruthless scumbags whose only motive is profit. I hope perspective tenants are mindful of what clamping company their management company has decided to go with.

I never defended them, said they were the best of a bad lot. When the original company was bought out we re-examined the competitors and opted to stay with them. I mentioned they were aggressive in connection with the new management, BUT the bottom line is they can only clamp within their contract. Tenants have nothing to fear from the clampers provided they park according to the development rules. I have lived here for 8 years and have never been clamped, because I only park where I'm supposed to, it's not that hard.

In relation to appealing, I know that if you are clamped on-street by the council when you have a valid ticket but it's not on view, you have to pay and appeal.

The management company can request that APCOA release the car but they would have no power to insist. Particularly in the OP's case where clamping is being used for revenue purposes, they're unlikely to threaten to pull the contract.

Motorist · 14-08-2012 11:58pm

athtrasna wrote: »

I never defended them, said they were the best of a bad lot. When the original company was bought out we re-examined the competitors and opted to stay with them. I mentioned they were aggressive in connection with the new management, BUT the bottom line is they can only clamp within their contract. Tenants have nothing to fear from the clampers provided they park according to the development rules. I have lived here for 8 years and have never been clamped, because I only park where I'm supposed to, it's not that hard.

In relation to appealing, I know that if you are clamped on-street by the council when you have a valid ticket but it's not on view, you have to pay and appeal.
.

You sound worse than a Ryanair robot. The OP has a genuine case but will get nowhere with the same scumbags you opted to hire. Unusual that your "research" finds them to be the best outfit, yet in several posts you have mentioned how aggressive they are and how aggressive their personnel are - that's the people you have chosen are best to expose the tenants in your complex to?

People often find themselves in unusual situations - you might come home at night to find someone else parked in your designated spot, your permit might fall down, etc - the point is they are not abusing the system or attempting to get free parking. Vultures like APCOA are there to take advantage in such situations.

Their appeals process is a complete farce. And if they clamp outside their contract, who do you appeal to? APCOA? A powerless management company like yours that brought them in in the first place?

The council have a legal basis for clamping on public roads. They also have some semblance of decency.

Clamped in my own parking space

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