Clamped in my own parking space

fasttalkerchat

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The problem is the clampers would simply settle the case.

How much would they settle for? I would want over a grand to go to all that hassle and they can't be seen to settle for that or everyone would get clamped on purpose!

Our man in Havana

kkelliher wrote: »

They can only settle if the other party agrees to the settlement. If you want your day in court on principal you can have it but it would not get a good reaction from the judge if you were offered what you claimed

The clampers would simply lodge a sum of money with the court. If you do not beat the lodgement you are stuck paying all the costs both yours and theirs.

athtrasna

kkelliher wrote: »

I could be wrong but as far as i am aware the clampers pay the management company a yearly fee for right to clamp and they then get the monies from any clamping charges therefore there is nor reason for them to payout on appeals.

Not true! Our MC used to pay APCOA to provide the service, recently they increased the release fee but don't charge the MC any more.

Motorist wrote: »

APCOA are ruthless scumbags. The management company are more at fault though for hiring APCOA in the first place

We did a lot of research and APCOA were the best of a bad lot. No MC brings in clamping by choice, money is not made by the management company (contrary to quoted post above) so there are generally only two reasons for bringing it in. Either to prevent cars being abandoned here there and everywhere (generally at gable ends or directly outside front doors) as in our development, or as a way of forcing owners to pay their management fees as in the case in the OP's development.

Motorist

athtrasna wrote: »

We did a lot of research and APCOA were the best of a bad lot. No MC brings in clamping by choice, money is not made by the management company (contrary to quoted post above) so there are generally only two reasons for bringing it in. Either to prevent cars being abandoned here there and everywhere (generally at gable ends or directly outside front doors) as in our development, or as a way of forcing owners to pay their management fees as in the case in the OP's development.

Really, what research was done? Did how they target people come into play, or was it just all about getting the cheapest scumbags on offer?

Our man in Havana

Also do management companies realise that they can be held jointly liable for the clampers actions?

Mikros

RATM wrote: »

OP I understand your frustration.

Follow this link and go to page 30
http://www.lawsociety.ie/Documents/Gazette/Gazette%202011/march2011.pdf

It is just a matter of someone taking a case to get it sorted and then all their contracts for clamping in the grounds of apartments will become void overnight.

Thank you for that. Between the general legal issues in that article and the fact that it is "my" parking space I think there is a strong case to be made. Unfortunately I need the car for Thursday!

I will be raising the issue again with the Management Company - this situation should simply not be allowed happen for a bona fide mistake by a resident who has paid their fees. It's not good enough to just wash their hands of it. Apcoa are engaging in simple extortion - the €120 charge per 24 hours cannot be justified.

I may ultimately have to pay the charge tomorrow, appeal and if (when) not successful talk to a solicitor.

Greenmachine

Clamp the clampers that is what I say. They are Scum, of the same order as loan sharks. Regulation in this area is long over due. If they can sort out security licenses, there should be possilbility for licensing this. Release fee should be no more than €40.
€120 is bull****. Especially when they don't have a legal basis.

Our man in Havana

Why appeal? Go straight to a solicitor.

athtrasna

Motorist wrote: »

Really, what research was done? Did how they target people come into play, or was it just all about getting the cheapest scumbags on offer?

There are two services in the area, APCOA...though it wasn't APCOA when we hired them, it was something else and they got bought out by APCOA, and NCPS. We compared release fee, reaction time and reports from other developments which used the companies.

Like I said, there has been a change in the management of the company in the last few months and there has been a huge change in how aggressive they are.

Ideally we wouldn't have clamping, but we had to bring it in for safety reasons. We hired a reputable company, like I said, they were bought out. They have a very strict remit in our development, they can only clamp vehicles which are not parked in spaces, or vehicles prohibited by leases. The first thing I ask anyone who arrives at my door is if they are parked in a space (we don't have allocated parking), and get them to do so if they aren't because APCOA patrols have definitely increased in frequency.

At no point did we look for "scumbags". I'm a director of our management company, as an owner. I'm also a resident and it's all about making the development a safer place, in our case this was the reason we proposed clamping at an AGM and got it implemented.

Dionysius2

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Why appeal? Go straight to a solicitor.

I agree. Do not pay under any circumstances. Try to find another solution for Thursday.

djimi

athtrasna wrote: »

Technically if the permit was not on display, they would be within their contract to have clamped you, the onus is on you to display it. It would be a goodwill gesture on their part to waive the fee, and one I wouldn't expect given my experiences of the new personnel.

While they might have been within their rights to clamp initially due to the OP not having their permit on display, the minute they learned that the OP was parked in the space legally they should have had someone out to remove the clamp. One phone call from the management company should have had the matter cleared up in an hour. The management company hire clampers to deal with cars who are parked illegally and should not be parked there. They have no right to extort money from those who are allowed to park there, regardless of whether or not there is a permit in view or whatever.

Motorist

athtrasna wrote: »

Not true! Our MC used to pay APCOA to provide the service, recently they increased the release fee but don't charge the MC any more.




We did a lot of research and APCOA were the best of a bad lot. No MC brings in clamping by choice, money is not made by the management company (contrary to quoted post above) so there are generally only two reasons for bringing it in. .

athtrasna wrote: »

There are two services in the area, APCOA...though it wasn't APCOA when we hired them, it was something else and they got bought out by APCOA, and NCPS. We compared release fee, reaction time and reports from other developments which used the companies.

Like I said, there has been a change in the management of the company in the last few months and there has been a huge change in how aggressive they are.

Ideally we wouldn't have clamping, but we had to bring it in for safety reasons. We hired a reputable company, like I said, they were bought out. They have a very strict remit in our development, they can only clamp vehicles which are not parked in spaces, or vehicles prohibited by leases.
.

You're at sea. One minute you're defending APCOA, the next you're admitting that they are aggressive and conceding that you didn't hire them, that the old outfit that ran clamping was bought out. The fact remains, APCOA are a bunch of ruthless scumbags whose only motive is profit. I hope perspective tenants are mindful of what clamping company their management company has decided to go with.

In the OP's case, he would have registered his car reg plate with the clamping company. Any basic check would have revealed that he was paying for his parking spot and had a valid permit. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the patrol recognised his car, knew he was genuine but saw a way to screw him for €120.

djimi

Mikros wrote: »

I may ultimately have to pay the charge tomorrow, appeal and if (when) not successful talk to a solicitor.

If you give them a penny then you a fool. They have no right to a cent of your money, and if you pay the "fine" then you will never see the money again.

Our man in Havana

We hired a reputable company

Reputable and clampers are mutually exclusive terms.

RATM

Mikros wrote: »

Thank you for that. Between the general legal issues in that article and the fact that it is "my" parking space I think there is a strong case to be made. Unfortunately I need the car for Thursday!

I will be raising the issue again with the Management Company - this situation should simply not be allowed happen for a bona fide mistake by a resident who has paid their fees. It's not good enough to just wash their hands of it. Apcoa are engaging in simple extortion - the €120 charge per 24 hours cannot be justified.

I may ultimately have to pay the charge tomorrow, appeal and if (when) not successful talk to a solicitor.

Fair enough. But I would also advise avoiding their appeals service- it is not as independent as they claim. If you were willing to go all the way to court and take a test case then I am sure people here on Boards would chip in for it- if others were up for it I would gladly spend €50 for a chance to see clamping on private property made illegal for once and for all.

I'm sure others over on the Motors forum feel the same. We have the legal basis for it and that barrister seems to know what he is talking about. It is just a matter of taking the test case and winning it, once it is won it would then attract national media attention and from then on in everyone would know that clamping on private property is illegal, including the clampers.

Motorist

djimi wrote: »

If you give them a penny then you a fool. They have no right to a cent of your money, and if you pay the "fine" then you will never see the money again.

I would agree with this. If you are paying with the thought in your mind that there is a tiny chance you will be successful on appeal, you should know that you 100% will not be. There is not a snowballs chance in hell APCOA will give you your money back. Your circumstances are extremely genuine and you pay for your space, you have a valid permit - but APCOA won't give a flying fluck about this. And you will feel like a complete mug when you hand them €120.

Nedser101

Get it cut off ,!

jd

This is a bit mad. The clampers shouldn't clamp cars parked in assigned spaces unless
a) car is parked in another's assigned space (and a complaint has been made)
b) licence to park has been withdrawn due to refusal to pay service charges..

athtrasna

Motorist wrote: »

You're at sea. One minute you're defending APCOA, the next you're admitting that they are aggressive and conceding that you didn't hire them, that the old outfit that ran clamping was bought out. The fact remains, APCOA are a bunch of ruthless scumbags whose only motive is profit. I hope perspective tenants are mindful of what clamping company their management company has decided to go with.

I never defended them, said they were the best of a bad lot. When the original company was bought out we re-examined the competitors and opted to stay with them. I mentioned they were aggressive in connection with the new management, BUT the bottom line is they can only clamp within their contract. Tenants have nothing to fear from the clampers provided they park according to the development rules. I have lived here for 8 years and have never been clamped, because I only park where I'm supposed to, it's not that hard.

In relation to appealing, I know that if you are clamped on-street by the council when you have a valid ticket but it's not on view, you have to pay and appeal.

The management company can request that APCOA release the car but they would have no power to insist. Particularly in the OP's case where clamping is being used for revenue purposes, they're unlikely to threaten to pull the contract.

Motorist

athtrasna wrote: »

I never defended them, said they were the best of a bad lot. When the original company was bought out we re-examined the competitors and opted to stay with them. I mentioned they were aggressive in connection with the new management, BUT the bottom line is they can only clamp within their contract. Tenants have nothing to fear from the clampers provided they park according to the development rules. I have lived here for 8 years and have never been clamped, because I only park where I'm supposed to, it's not that hard.

In relation to appealing, I know that if you are clamped on-street by the council when you have a valid ticket but it's not on view, you have to pay and appeal.
.

You sound worse than a Ryanair robot. The OP has a genuine case but will get nowhere with the same scumbags you opted to hire. Unusual that your "research" finds them to be the best outfit, yet in several posts you have mentioned how aggressive they are and how aggressive their personnel are - that's the people you have chosen are best to expose the tenants in your complex to?

People often find themselves in unusual situations - you might come home at night to find someone else parked in your designated spot, your permit might fall down, etc - the point is they are not abusing the system or attempting to get free parking. Vultures like APCOA are there to take advantage in such situations.

Their appeals process is a complete farce. And if they clamp outside their contract, who do you appeal to? APCOA? A powerless management company like yours that brought them in in the first place?

The council have a legal basis for clamping on public roads. They also have some semblance of decency.

athtrasna

Motorist wrote: »

You sound worse than a Ryanair robot. The OP has a genuine case but will get nowhere with the same scumbags you opted to hire.

APCOA's appeal process is complete nonsense. And if they clamp outside their contract, who do you appeal to? APCOA? A powerless management company like yours that brought them in in the first place?

For your information we brought in clamping when an ambulance crew struggled to access a house because of cars illegally parked across the row of houses - we did it for safety. We would get rid of clamping altogether if people played by the rules but judging by other behaviour of some tenants, that's unlikely to happen.

Our management company is the legal entity comprising all owners in the development. It owns all common areas including the car parks. We are far from powerless. It was the owners who voted in clamping in the first place. If any clamping company clamp outside their contract, they would be bound to waive the release fee.

The OP's case is unfortunate. It would be interesting to know if the permits are logged against registrations and APCOA had a mechanism to check if the vehicle belonged to an owner with a permit, or if parking is purely down to the display of a permit.

Motorist wrote: »

Unusual that your "research" finds them to be the best outfit, yet in several posts you have mentioned how aggressive they are and how aggressive their personnel are - that's the people you have chosen are best to expose the tenants in your complex to?

People often find themselves in unusual situations - you might come home at night to find someone else parked in your designated spot, your permit might fall down, etc - the point is they are not abusing the system or attempting to get free parking. Vultures like APCOA are there to take advantage in such situations.

We did research, and at budget time, their contract, as with any contractor is up for review. The aggression in clamping is new, and they have been warned that it may impact them keeping the contract. They also wallpapered the development with new signs, which our management agent removed, they had no authority to erect the signs.

Like I said, we don't have allocated parking or permits - your other comments do not apply here.

RustyNut

Seems to be 2 ways out of this, you pay them to remove the clamp then take legal action to recover your money, or you take off the clamp and see if they take legal action to get some of your money.

Motorist

athtrasna wrote: »

For your information we brought in clamping when an ambulance crew struggled to access a house because of cars illegally parked across the row of houses - we did it for safety. We would get rid of clamping altogether if people played by the rules but judging by other behaviour of some tenants, that's unlikely to happen.

Our management company is the legal entity comprising all owners in the development. It owns all common areas including the car parks. We are far from powerless. It was the owners who voted in clamping in the first place. If any clamping company clamp outside their contract, they would be bound to waive the release fee.

The OP's case is unfortunate. It would be interesting to know if the permits are logged against registrations and APCOA had a mechanism to check if the vehicle belonged to an owner with a permit, or if parking is purely down to the display of a permit.



We did research, and at budget time, their contract, as with any contractor is up for review. The aggression in clamping is new, and they have been warned that it may impact them keeping the contract. They also wallpapered the development with new signs, which our management agent removed, they had no authority to erect the signs.

Like I said, we don't have allocated parking or permits - your other comments do not apply here.

Here's another interesting case involving clampers and a medical emergency. http://www.independent.ie/national-news/clampers-sorry-after-father-held-up-taking-sick-boy-to-hospital-172575.html

What power would your management company have to compel APCOA to waive a release fee? Do they issue court orders ?

Your research decided to bring in APCOA based on release fees? Are you trying to suggest that other clamping companies have a release fee of greater than €120, or were you just going for the most punitive fee available? What database did you use to examine "reaction times" of various clamping companies?

"Unfortunate" indeed the OP's case, as are many others who have the misfortunate of dealing with this company you chose to bring in.

Our man in Havana

I wonder how you will feel when you are before a judge explaining why someone was clamped?

fasttalkerchat

athtrasna wrote: »

For your information we brought in clamping when an ambulance crew struggled to access a house because of cars illegally parked across the row of houses - we did it for safety. We would get rid of clamping altogether if people played by the rules but judging by other behaviour of some tenants, that's unlikely to happen.

How would clamping help in this case? Clamping would mean that the owner could not move the vehicle and ensures that the car remains an obstruction until the issue is resolved.

Do you or any other residents on the management board make any money from cars being clamped?

Zamboni

Has anyone ever been successfully prosecuted for removing a clamp?

Our man in Havana

Zamboni wrote: »

Has anyone ever been successfully prosecuted for removing a clamp?

No.

fasttalkerchat

Zamboni wrote: »

Has anyone ever been successfully prosecuted for removing a clamp?

No. It only ever went to court once and the driver won.

If you are cutting a lock give them your details so it becomes a civil matter. Give them back their clamp and offer to buy a new lock.

To be safe its better to avoid cutting the lock at all but this will not always be possible if you're clamped away from home or have to be somewhere.

Zamboni

Our man in Havana wrote: »

No.

I know what I'd be doing right now, so.

athtrasna

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

How would clamping help in this case? Clamping would mean that the owner could not move the vehicle and ensures that the car remains an obstruction until the issue is resolved.

Do you or any other residents on the management board make any money from cars being clamped?

It is a deterrent, people know if they clamp anywhere other than a space, they will be clamped. We didn't bring it in that night, it was what showed us how someone being inconsiderate and ignoring the rules actually put someone's life at risk, so onus was on us to take action to enforce the rule.

As for making money, are you joking? Nobody in this development, or our management agent makes a cent out of any of our contractors. In fact, all owner directors work for free in our "spare time" to ensure that the development is a pleasant place to live and to own in. Directors are elected by the owners at each AGM. There is nothing in it for any of us other than to protect our investments by ensuring the development is well maintained.