Can meat producers make vegan food?

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 9:50am #1

greetings vegans.

are vegan products made by meat processing plants as a way of diversifying actually vegan? Even if there is no cross contamination and made separately?
can you mass kill animals and produce vegan food under the same name?

i think the answer is no, what do you think?

Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

Thelonious Monk · 12-01-2021 10:05am

Denny's do, Rudds do, Clonakilty do. Personally I see it as a good thing as they're branching out, and I think if people see recognisable brands they're more likely to try them. The Denny's sausages seem to be sold out or nearly sold out any time I go to buy them, I think lots of people who aren't vegan or even vegetarian would start to buy these things instead of the meat version.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 10:21am

I really don’t think you can be vegan and mass kill or fund the mass killing of animals

_Brian · 12-01-2021 10:25am

This move by such companies is just driven by revenue and not virtue or emotion

If it served their bottom line better they would increase the animal content.

It’s a way of monetising veganism and nothing else. That’s what the massive rush by companies into this market is. To make money of the latest trend, nothing else.

TheChizler · 12-01-2021 10:28am

Not vegan here. If you buy their vegan products they might realise how profitable it is and eventually start shifting focus, wouldn't that be desirable?

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 10:30am

_Brian wrote: »

This move by such companies is just driven by revenue and not virtue or emotion

If it served their bottom line better they would increase the animal content.

It’s a way of monetising veganism and nothing else. That’s what the massive rush by companies into this market is. To make money of the latest trend, nothing else.

so true vegans would see it as a fad? and not part of their lifestyle

Mimon · 12-01-2021 10:30am

TheChizler wrote: »

Not vegan here. If you buy their vegan products they might realise how profitable it is and eventually start shifting focus, wouldn't that be desirable?

You're not allowed to comment on this thread the OP on high has declared this :rolleyes:

Probes · 12-01-2021 10:31am

TheChizler wrote: »

Not vegan here. If you buy their vegan products they might realise how profitable it is and eventually start shifting focus, wouldn't that be desirable?

Yes. By the same token can anyone who buys vegan food from the supermarket be called a vegan? Supermarkets sell meat also.

At the end of the day if companies branch out and provide alternatives to meat then that is a good thing in the long run.

Mimon · 12-01-2021 10:32am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

so true vegans would see it as a fad? and not part of their lifestyle

What's a true vegan? Are you somehow better than the untrue vegans? Is there like a league of virtue when it comes to veganism?

seamus · 12-01-2021 10:35am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i think the answer is no

Why?

emaherx · 12-01-2021 10:39am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

greetings vegans. (and vegans only)

are vegan products made by meat processing plants as a way of diversifying actually vegan? Even if there is no cross contamination and made separately?
can you mass kill animals and produce vegan food under the same name?

i think the answer is no, what do you think?

Obviously not a vegan here, but .....

Where do you draw the line then?
Every major supermarket has a butchers,
Dose that rule out eating the vegan option in any non-vegan restaurant as well?

I'm sure the list goes on, but realistically while there probably are vegans who absolutely subscribe to that level, I think most would struggle to feed themselves sufficiently without purchasing from a company which in some way funds the meat industry. Quite often vegetable producers may also keep livestock or be in some way part of the supply chain feeding livestock farms.

Feisar · 12-01-2021 10:48am

What exactly is veganism? Is it purely the abstention from eating animal products? I know a lady that calls herself a vegan but has no issue strolling into BT and buying a Mulberry hand bag. Surely that's á la carte veganism? But them how far can one take it? Are there vegan pension funds so ones money is only invested in vegan certified companies? As a poster above said one cannot shop in a supermarket due to it also selling meat. So vegan only stores. Is the shipping company that supplies them vegan, was their start up capital vegan sourced? At some point one is going to run into a crime against an animal, it's about how far one wants to take it I suppose.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 10:53am

It seems odd that you can slaughter and process animals on one hand and sell vegan products as vegan? So the consensus in this thread is yes you can

seamus · 12-01-2021 10:57am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It seems odd that you can slaughter and process animals on one hand and sell vegan products as vegan? So the consensus in this thread is yes you can

The "consensus" is that aside from not consuming animal products, there is no grand unifying philosophy behind veganism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism

Some may define their veganism so as to include a boycott not only of animal products, but of companies who produce animal products.

But many don't and it's not a requirement for veganism.

Probes · 12-01-2021 11:00am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

It seems odd that you can slaughter and process animals on one hand and sell vegan products as vegan? So the consensus in this thread is yes you can

I think it's a personal thing. Whenever I get asked these types of questions I simply say that the best thing to do is 'what you can do'. There is no point in berating people for buying vegan products from a supermarket if they are just going to give up and go back to meat. The easier things are for people the more likely they will do it.

Also, please take vit B12 if you are going veggie or vegan. Thanks

_Brian · 12-01-2021 11:07am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

so true vegans would see it as a fad? and not part of their lifestyle

I never used the term “fad”

antimatterx · 12-01-2021 11:10am

I'm a vegetarian 10+ years and I've been eating Linda McCartney/Quorn sausages all that time. The new Denny meat free ones are exceptional, they're the best ones I've ever had tbh.

Tbh, I've noticed a huge increase of vegetarian / vegan offerings in the last two years. This is across supermarkets, cafes, and restaurants. It's going to be getting better as more people switch their diets.

12-01-2021 11:19am

I'd like some guidance please, Ayatollah Williams...

I've just bought a field and will be growing carrots in it in the near future.

While preparing the field, I'm going to evict beautiful creatures from their habitats and (unintentionally) kill insects and no doubt the odd rabbit.

Will this make me a false vegan?

Thelonious Monk · 12-01-2021 11:24am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd like some guidance please, Ayatollah Williams...

I've just bought a field and will be growing carrots in it in the near future.

While preparing the field, I'm going to evict beautiful creatures from their habitats and (unintentionally) kill insects and no doubt the odd rabbit.

Will this make me a false vegan?

Well if you were to live off only vegetables, you'd be killing far less insects and affecting far less biodiversity than you would if you ate meat, which takes far more land and resources to produce. Nothing comes without a footprint unfortunately, even vegan diets.

12-01-2021 11:31am

Unfortunately OP some regular posters, from the farming community, have ignored your OP and weighed in with their opinion.

Doesn’t look like you’ll get the opinions from the people you’ve directly asked.

NcdJd · 12-01-2021 11:31am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Well if you were to live off only vegetables, you'd be killing far less insects and affecting far less biodiversity than you would if you ate meat, which takes far more land and resources to produce. Nothing comes without a footprint unfortunately, even vegan diets.

Sorry but that is incorrect. Apart from organically produced vegetables, vegetables production has one of the highest footprints in terms of use of pesticides and fungicides. Also factor in soil degradation due to ploughing and cultivation, irrigation and in a lot of cases crop protection mesh. All agriculture is damaging to the environment, but we have to produce food. The claims made by vegans that a plant based diet is any better for the planet to me is just misinformation. Veganism to me is about stopping the farming of animals full stop. Everything else around it, such as being more friendly to biodiversity and the environment is just spin.

Edit, thats my view, not trying to upset anyone by the way. I was involved in commercial vegetable farming.

Thelonious Monk · 12-01-2021 11:35am

NcdJd wrote: »

Sorry but that is incorrect. Apart from organically produced vegetables, vegetables production has one of the highest footprints in terms of use of pesticides and fungicides. Also factor in soil degradation due to ploughing and cultivation, irrigation and in a lot of cases crop protection mesh. All agriculture is damaging to the environment, but we have to produce food. The claims made by vegans that a plant based diet is any better for the planet to me is just misinformation. Veganism to me is about stopping the farming of animals full stop. Everything else around it, such as being more friendly to biodiversity and the environment is just spin.

It is true that insects are in a terrible decline across the planet. But the biggest drivers of this are the destruction of wild habitat, largely for meat production, and widespread pesticide use. If it is insects that you are really worried about, then eating a plant-based organic diet is the option to choose.

<Snip>

Ten of Swords · 12-01-2021 11:45am

Let's be civil everyone, thank you

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 11:54am

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately OP some regular posters, from the farming community, have ignored your OP and weighed in with their opinion.

Doesn’t look like you’ll get the opinions from the people you’ve directly asked.

There’s a lot of sand in underpants alright for a simple question:)

Mimon · 12-01-2021 11:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

Unfortunately OP some regular posters, from the farming community, have ignored your OP and weighed in with their opinion.

Doesn’t look like you’ll get the opinions from the people you’ve directly asked.

What is your logic here?:rolleyes: Non vegans have commented it means it is not a safe space for vegans to comment now?

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 11:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd like some guidance please, Ayatollah Williams...

I've just bought a field and will be growing carrots in it in the near future.

While preparing the field, I'm going to evict beautiful creatures from their habitats and (unintentionally) kill insects and no doubt the odd rabbit.

Will this make me a false vegan?

Go for it

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 11:56am

Mimon wrote: »

What is your logic here?:rolleyes: Non vegans have commented it means it is not a safe space for vegans to comment now?

Considering the op is an enthusiastic carnivore I would say all are welcome to comment

NcdJd · 12-01-2021 11:58am

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

It is true that insects are in a terrible decline across the planet. But the biggest drivers of this are the destruction of wild habitat, largely for meat production, and widespread pesticide use. If it is insects that you are really worried about, then eating a plant-based organic diet is the option to choose.

<Snip>

I think we can agree that more needs to be done to protect the environment and biodiversity? Farmers I'll suggest are leading the way on this from a practical level. Look up the Bride Project in Cork as an example if you have the time. I think people in general are waiting around for some magical bullet where the biodiversity and environmental impact we have as humans will be solved. It's easy to post on social media moaning about evil farmers and tge like. Much harder to get a spade in your hand and plant a couple of trees, lobby your local councils to not do as much grass cutting etc.

Mimon · 12-01-2021 11:59am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

Considering the op is an enthusiastic carnivore I would say all are welcome to comment

Why are you referring to yourself as the OP? Wrong login:D?

Yourself as the OP said only vegans to reply. Good way to rub people up the wrong way on an open forum.

Ten of Swords · 12-01-2021 11:59am

Mod

OP has requested input from vegans so anyone wishing to identify themselves as vegan and answer ops question can obviously do so

However, we are not going to exclude inputs from anyone else as long as they post within the forum rules. It's not happening

Thelonious Monk · 12-01-2021 11:59am

No one is posting about evil farmers. Farmers come and start posting on every vegan thread.

NcdJd · 12-01-2021 12:02pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

No one is posting about evil farmers. Farmers come and start posting on every vegan thread.

That was not directed at you personally Thelonious, it's just the vibe I get constantly when reading articles in the mainstream media and social media.

Mimon · 12-01-2021 12:04pm

Would vegans generally eat organic also? It obviously is a lot less harmful to the environment and biodiversity so would make sense.

yellowlabrador · 12-01-2021 12:10pm

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

Probes · 12-01-2021 12:15pm

NcdJd wrote: »

Sorry but that is incorrect. Apart from organically produced vegetables, vegetables production has one of the highest footprints in terms of use of pesticides and fungicides. Also factor in soil degradation due to ploughing and cultivation, irrigation and in a lot of cases crop protection mesh. All agriculture is damaging to the environment, but we have to produce food. The claims made by vegans that a plant based diet is any better for the planet to me is just misinformation. Veganism to me is about stopping the farming of animals full stop. Everything else around it, such as being more friendly to biodiversity and the environment is just spin.

Edit, thats my view, not trying to upset anyone by the way. I was involved in commercial vegetable farming.

Come on now, a vegan diet is less problematic in terms of environmental consequences, this is a given. And as you rightly say by eating organic you can negate much of your own argument.

My point stands, "do what you can". Many people I speak with say they are having a couple of days a week meat free which I think is great. I honestly believe that in 50 years time people will look back and think "Wow, I can't believe they all ate meat!".

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 12:16pm

Mimon wrote: »

Why are you referring to yourself as the OP? Wrong login:D?

Yourself as the OP said only vegans to reply. Good way to rub people up the wrong way on an open forum.

I am guilty of wanting to know what vegans thought of vegan products made by meat factories

Funsterdelux · 12-01-2021 12:18pm

yellowlabrador wrote: »

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

Perhaps they had a dairy allergy?

On the main topic.

Giving the denny sausages as an example, a tasty one at that. Are they marketed as vegan or just meatless?

Denny meatfree range

No word of being vegan. Which would be a good place to start.

Thelonious Monk · 12-01-2021 12:20pm

Mimon wrote: »

Would vegans generally eat organic also? It obviously is a lot less harmful to the environment and biodiversity so would make sense.

Not sure on this, intensive veg farming producing the most yield may have less affect on biodiversity than organic.
I remember seeing a thing on Horizon on BBC and they came to the conclusion that chicken from battery hens does the least damage to the environment, when it comes to meat, as horrific as the industry is.

We could probably all eat only organic meat if we ate it only once or twice a week.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 12:21pm

Mimon wrote: »

Why are you referring to yourself as the OP? Wrong login:D?

Yourself as the OP said only vegans to reply. Good way to rub people up the wrong way on an open forum.

What?

Probes · 12-01-2021 12:21pm

yellowlabrador wrote: »

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

2 vegans are not representative of all vegans!

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 12:23pm

yellowlabrador wrote: »

In the m id 80's, I went on a group camping trip. We had decided on a vegetarian diet to accommodate everyone. 2 were vegan, 14 in the main group. The vegans took half the pots and pans because they were afraid on contamination of their food from dairy products and eggs. Even washing a pan was not acceptable to them. It was a stressful trip and there were a lot of rows. I'd now avoid trips with vegans.

This is getting close to answering the question, I’m sure at the very least vegans would expect no cross contamination in the factory, or even a separate factory, but I’d still like to hear from vegans on vegan products made by meat producers ?

yellowlabrador · 12-01-2021 12:35pm

Probes wrote: »

2 vegans are not representative of all vegans!

Veganism was hard work then. I remember them being very underweight and very pale. They were just miserable and very entrenched in their views. It put me off people with extreme views. It had nothing to do with food intolerances, but everything to do with thought intolerances.

Zookey123 · 12-01-2021 12:36pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

This is getting close to answering the question, I’m sure at the very least vegans would expect no cross contamination in the factory, or even a separate factory, but I’d still like to hear from vegans on vegan products made by meat producers ?

As stated before not all vegans have the same thought process. There is no vegan bible that every vegan reads to form an opinion on topics such as these. You will get a varied response. I personally think anything that makes a vegan diet easier to manage is a good thing in the long run. I do believe the majority hold this view but can't speak on behalf of all vegans.

Probes · 12-01-2021 12:37pm

yellowlabrador wrote: »

Veganism was hard work then. I remember them being very underweight and very pale. They were just miserable and very entrenched in their views. It put me off people with extreme views. It had nothing to do with food intolerances, but everything to do with thought intolerances.

But you could have just described all Scottish people.

NcdJd · 12-01-2021 12:58pm

Probes wrote: »

Come on now, a vegan diet is less problematic in terms of environmental consequences, this is a given.

It's not as simple as that Probes. Both types of production done intensively are just as bad as the other. Anyway I've said my piece so I'll leave it at that. My advice is to try and source local produce, whether its meat, fruit or vegetables and you will be making a big difference. Also try and do something practical to improve biodiversity in your local community.

El Tarangu · 12-01-2021 1:19pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

This is getting close to answering the question, I’m sure at the very least vegans would expect no cross contamination in the factory, or even a separate factory, but I’d still like to hear from vegans on vegan products made by meat producers ?

Why do you think this? This logic would mean that vegans could not eat in any but a tiny number of restaurants, or even have coffee in a friend's house (if the friend had meat in the fridge, or even chocolate in the press).

Feisar · 12-01-2021 2:03pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Why do you think this? This logic would mean that vegans could not eat in any but a tiny number of restaurants, or even have coffee in a friend's house (if the friend had meat in the fridge, or even chocolate in the press).

Is fear of cross use a thing?

eviltwin · 12-01-2021 2:17pm

I eat the Denny sausages and mince, the elmlea cream, vegan mayo etc. All made by producers who make non vegan versions of the same thing. It makes sense that they expand their customer base - if it wasn’t commercially viable they wouldn’t do it. I hope that if they see a lot of sales it will encourage them to expand their ranges - Hellman’s have done so recently with flavoured vegan mayonnaise. Choice is good. Not everyone who buys meat or dairy free is vegan.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 2:25pm

El Tarangu wrote: »

Why do you think this? This logic would mean that vegans could not eat in any but a tiny number of restaurants, or even have coffee in a friend's house (if the friend had meat in the fridge, or even chocolate in the press).

My question was referring to companies selling vegan friendly food and mass slaughtering animals, but the discussion has opened up to eating in the same county as a chap who once stood on a wasp etc

Probes · 12-01-2021 3:07pm

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

My question was referring to companies selling vegan friendly food and mass slaughtering animals, but the discussion has opened up to eating in the same county as a chap who once stood on a wasp etc

Yeah but the fundamental point is, where do you draw the line? It's personal choice where. You can draw it as crudely as you want if the desire is to determine that no-one is truly vegan.

Ash.J.Williams · 12-01-2021 3:15pm

Probes wrote: »

Yeah but the fundamental point is, where do you draw the line? It's personal choice where. You can draw it as crudely as you want if the desire is to determine that no-one is truly vegan.

So far the line is whatever works best for the individual

Can meat producers make vegan food?

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