Principal Officer competition 2019

Ollie321 · 08-11-2019 12:09pm

Sonjac wrote: »

Where do Revenue advertise? I don't think its through PAS?

Revenue run their own competitions:
https://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/information-about-revenue/careers/career-opportunities.aspx

Irishder · 11-11-2019 3:49pm

Anyone here anything back yet?

AlanG · 11-11-2019 3:53pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, question - did any of ye show the invigilator your working paper at the end?

I let the time run out then it went back to the supervisor screen and after about 15 seconds I simply logged out after there was no contact. Only afterwards remembered I was supposed to show them my workings.

I was in the same situation - I waited at the end but heard nothing for the other side. After a minute or so I logged out.

11-11-2019 4:23pm

Irishder wrote: »

Anyone here anything back yet?

Going to be the best part of two weeks before they get back to us I'd say.

Sonjac · 12-11-2019 12:49pm

I heard they are hoping to have the panel in place before the new year, so hopefully that'll speed thing up a bit...

12-11-2019 2:01pm

Sonjac wrote: »

I heard they are hoping to have the panel in place before the new year, so hopefully that'll speed thing up a bit...

That would imply they're speeding things up compared to before (from reading prior PO threads)

hardybuck · 12-11-2019 3:15pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That would imply they're speeding things up compared to before (from reading prior PO threads)

No the quoted timelines are about normal.

Maybenever · 13-11-2019 3:31pm

hardybuck wrote: »

No the quoted timelines are about normal.

Are they? Just looking back on the last one the initial test was in August with the interviews (and supervised tests) the start of October (presumably the shortlisting takes place in the intervening period) with the results shortly after.

Assuming that the same timeline was broadly aligned, we'd be into January before the interviews, no?

Anyway, you seem to have the inside line on this, what are the expected timelines?!

The Veteran · 13-11-2019 11:56pm

Maybenever wrote: »

Are they? Just looking back on the last one the initial test was in August with the interviews (and supervised tests) the start of October (presumably the shortlisting takes place in the intervening period) with the results shortly after.

Assuming that the same timeline was broadly aligned, we'd be into January before the interviews, no?

Anyway, you seem to have the inside line on this, what are the expected timelines?!

Closing date was in July 2017. Interviews were in early Sept 2017. Results were out 5 weeks later in mid October. Those results were delayed because 41 additional folks were called for Interview after the initial batch's interviews had started (due to some sort of issue that had been identified). The first assignments were issued in November 2017 and by Christmas the panel was well underway in terms of assignments. It's possible interviews will be in first half of December but I dont have any actual info. Have to wait and see like.everyome else.

William72 · 15-11-2019 3:05pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, question - did any of ye show the invigilator your working paper at the end?

I let the time run out then it went back to the supervisor screen and after about 15 seconds I simply logged out after there was no contact. Only afterwards remembered I was supposed to show them my workings.

Exact same experience - with the stress of finishing section 2, when the clock ran out and I was "invited" to disconnect, that's what I did. Only then realized I was supposed to share my work. Contacted PAS about it straight away, they were very nice about it and asked me to send them an email so if the test centre put a note against me for it they would have something from me.

At least now we can say there were at least 3 of us in the same boat! :rolleyes:

randomer542 · 18-11-2019 12:23pm

I wish they'd ever just put us out of our misery. The longer it goes on, the more I'm convincing myself I've failed miserably. A lot of those questions were completely out of context though, so tough to answer in stand alone scenarios.

Bowiegal · 18-11-2019 12:25pm

randomer542 wrote: »

I wish they'd ever just put us out of our misery. The longer it goes on, the more I'm convincing myself I've failed miserably. A lot of those questions were completely out of context though, so tough to answer in stand alone scenarios.

They are probably shortlisting the applications in tandem with the results which is why it’s taking so long.

Nautilus support · 22-11-2019 12:22pm

This is taking a while, don't think they'll have a panel by December as someone suggested

hardybuck · 22-11-2019 12:36pm

Nautilus support wrote: »

This is taking a while, don't think they'll have a panel by December as someone suggested

I think someone suggested that interviews might take place in December. As it's so close to Christmas they might be January. But whenever the interviews are held the panel would be formed shortly afterwards.

I wouldn't be surprised if this new system is prompting a few reviews of individual tests and invigilation reports - a number of posters here noted technical issues.

kingvagabond · 22-11-2019 4:45pm

Any official line on when results of assessments will be posted. Anybody email PAS directly and ask for an update?

Summer2019 · 22-11-2019 5:10pm

kingvagabond wrote: »

Any official line on when results of assessments will be posted. Anybody email PAS directly and ask for an update?

I actually just rang them and the PAS staff member in the PO section informed me that results for Stage 1 should be out early next week.

kingvagabond · 22-11-2019 5:41pm

Summer 2019 - Great thanks for update. I am not hopeful but I would like to know!

tea and coffee · 25-11-2019 11:43am

Results are out!!!

Summer2019 · 25-11-2019 11:45am

tea and coffee wrote: »

Results are out!!!

Best of luck to everyone!!

25-11-2019 11:47am

I'll not be called back for the next stage. 398 due to be called and I was in the 440s.

The order of Merit was based on the Job simulation only, and I only got in the 540s for this out of 800. I'm disappointed with the result, but not for failing that test as it's pretty much a crap shoot.

But, well done to those making the next round.

Interesting info. You only need to pass the Critical Analysis portion and the Job simulation is the key for selection.

ThumbTaxed · 25-11-2019 11:50am

Imagine selecting people based on Job Simulation.

Insert negative Civil Service comments here!

25-11-2019 11:52am

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Insert negative Civil Service comments here!

We can't - only you and mods can post there. :P

Sonjac · 25-11-2019 11:53am

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll not be called back for the next stage. 398 due to be called and I was in the 440s.

QUOTE]

There will probably be a few batches if its similar to the last AP competition... might just take a while

tea and coffee · 25-11-2019 11:55am

Chinese... it may be that they call a second batch. If the pass mark is 400, and you got over that, isn't there still an opportunity?

I made it, only just.
Second stage is video interview.

Summer2019 · 25-11-2019 11:55am

Deleted User wrote: »

We can't - only you and mods can post there. :P

Curious to see how many of the 398 will end up on the panel for appointment after the remainder of the sieving stages take place.

25-11-2019 11:58am

Sonjac wrote: »

There will probably be a few batches if its similar to the last AP competition... might just take a while

Ah, I think they'll interview up to 398 (which is a lot to interview) as it is, but possibly in tranches. I don't expect to get called based on placing 440's. Not sure I'd have fared any better if I had Public Sector experience seeing as the Qs were generic enough for the most part, IIRC.

Irishder · 25-11-2019 12:00pm

I was placed 754, scored 501 in the job simulation

ThumbTaxed · 25-11-2019 12:03pm

Irishder wrote: »

I was placed 754, scored 501 in the job simulation

We got the same score so you are as bad as me!

What did you get in the other one by the way?

25-11-2019 12:04pm

Irishder wrote: »

I was placed 754, scored 501 in the job simulation

The thing is re the Job simulation, you could argue that multiple answers were correct. We went with certain answers we thought were correct for a reason, but they didn't match the prejudged answers they were looking for compared to others.

ThumbTaxed · 25-11-2019 12:04pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ah, I think they'll interview up to 398 (which is a lot to interview) as it is, but possibly in tranches. I don't expect to get called based on placing 440's. Not sure I'd have fared any better if I had Public Sector experience seeing as the Qs were generic enough for the most part, IIRC.

I have public sector experience and it certainly didn't help.

25-11-2019 12:05pm

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I have public sector experience and it certainly didn't help.

As I said, a crapshoot.

tea and coffee · 25-11-2019 12:10pm

In any previous comp I have done at lower grades, some portion of the psychometric tests (verbal/ numerical) was always used in grading.

sheepstealer · 25-11-2019 12:11pm

565 got me into the top 398 if that is any good to anyone

This part is new to me !!

"It is intended to invite those placed up to and including 398 on the order of merit to Stage 2 of the selection process which consists of an Online Video Interview. For those concerned further details will issue shortly."

25-11-2019 12:14pm

sheepstealer wrote: »

565 got me into the top 398 if that is any good to anyone

Yeah, around the 398 OoM small differences in marks make a big difference in the ranking. A nearly right versus ideal answer in one question could make a big difference in the OoM.

Tr1ckieD1ckie · 25-11-2019 12:23pm

Best of luck to everyone shortlisted for the video interview stage. Any idea how many posts might actually be filled on foot of this competition. I assume your placing in the OoM will also be impacted by each later stage- you're not necessarily fixed to your current placing in the OoM?

Irishder · 25-11-2019 12:41pm

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

We got the same score so you are as bad as me!

What did you get in the other one by the way?

458

25-11-2019 12:48pm

Tr1ckieD1ckie wrote: »

I assume your placing in the OoM will also be impacted by each later stage- you're not necessarily fixed to your current placing in the OoM?

From my reading, going by previous competitions you're starting from scratch at the next stage.

randomer542 · 25-11-2019 1:01pm

Didn't get through

Smashed the Critical analysis one (which in my opinion is better marker for suitability to that role) but no the job simulation one which honestly, i still contend needed more detail in examples to make them viable questions.
Best of luck to all progressing

tea and coffee · 25-11-2019 1:17pm

Video interview info out already!!

Nautilus support · 25-11-2019 1:23pm

Smashed the critical and didn't make it, even though I got around 500 in the scenarios. I am going to send PAS an email asking where it was stated that the critical had no importance - hours of prepping for absolutely nothing, and 12 hypothetical questions are the only way to get to stage 2.. What a joke..

ShellyMCD · 25-11-2019 1:25pm

The ways of PAS are always a mystery!

Congrats to all who made it through. Best of luck with the video interviews and and all other stages of the competition.

Radial · 25-11-2019 1:38pm

I'm furious about this as well. Did really well on the Critical Analysis but only got 400 on the Job Simulation, so while I passed I don't think there's a chance of progressing to stage 2, even much further down the road.

Again, I would have assumed a combining of the 2 scores, this has certainly been the way in the past. I also prepared for the Critical Analysis to a large extent and it feels that it was to no avail.

25-11-2019 1:48pm

I suppose it's fair in the sense everyone is treated the same, but you'd be slow to apply again based on such a 'Job Simulation'.

hardybuck · 25-11-2019 2:00pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I suppose it's fair in the sense everyone is treated the same, but you'd be slow to apply again based on such a 'Job Simulation'.

Job simulation will be that bit more difficult as you haven't worked at that level or if you haven't had a chance to work in the Civil Service and observe the habits of effective Principal Officers.

While everyone is in the same situation regarding the former, that's not the case for the latter.

Doodah7 · 25-11-2019 2:02pm

From reading the last few posts, it seems that the aptitude test has set out what it intended to do. Anecdotal feedback from recent campaigns has been that many of the successful candidates have been able to 'talk the talk' but when it came to the actual role were unable to 'walk the walk' from the get-go.

Posters saying that they put huge amount of time into practicing the critical analysis but unable to do well in the job simulation (the 'walk the walk' bit) somewhat reinforces that opinion. For an existing Civil Servant, the scenarios outlined in the Job Simulation were broadly representative of what could occur (notwithstanding the seriously odd one or two) and it would have been a distinct advantage to have had access in a current role to the higher levels of the Civil Service when answering the questions. Again a point that shows that the aptitude test did its job.

To be an effective Principal Officer means being able to assess situations and use your best judgement on how to move forward, not how to crunch numbers or analyse text. A Principal Officer has staff to do that work which then feeds into the analysis process.

VanHalen · 25-11-2019 2:02pm

This is indeed strange - last time round i was placed high 400's whereas this time i was placed in the low one hundreds. I don't believe my ability to do this type of test has increased that dramatically. I wonder if the new format of having a camera and showing your wrists and ears (!) has anything to do with it?
Just seen the notice re video interviews to be held 2nd of December to 4th of December. It also says you wont get a message with a link to schedule the interview until Monday 2nd of December - again strange way of doing things.

Nautilus support · 25-11-2019 2:26pm

Doodah7 wrote: »

From reading the last few posts, it seems that the aptitude test has set out what it intended to do. Anecdotal feedback from recent campaigns has been that many of the successful candidates have been able to 'talk the talk' but when it came to the actual role were unable to 'walk the walk' from the get-go.

Posters saying that they put huge amount of time into practicing the critical analysis but unable to do well in the job simulation (the 'walk the walk' bit) somewhat reinforces that opinion. For an existing Civil Servant, the scenarios outlined in the Job Simulation were broadly representative of what could occur (notwithstanding the seriously odd one or two) and it would have been a distinct advantage to have had access in a current role to the higher levels of the Civil Service when answering the questions. Again a point that shows that the aptitude test did its job.

To be an effective Principal Officer means being able to assess situations and use your best judgement on how to move forward, not how to crunch numbers or analyse text. A Principal Officer has staff to do that work which then feeds into the analysis process.

I'm an AP and I virtually disagree with everything you said. Steering away from the "my minions will do the job of crunching numbers and analysing text for me" mentality is exactly what makes a PO a good PO. Also, strongly agreeing, agreeing or slightly agreeing (or disagreeing) in an absolute factual vacuum is not a good test, particularly when there are 12 (and not 100) questions and you can get lucky or unlucky. I know people who would ace the job and they just failed.

hardybuck · 25-11-2019 2:48pm

Nautilus support wrote: »

I'm an AP and I virtually disagree with everything you said. Steering away from the "my minions will do the job of crunching numbers and analysing text for me" mentality is exactly what makes a PO a good PO. Also, strongly agreeing, agreeing or slightly agreeing (or disagreeing) in an absolute factual vacuum is not a good test, particularly when there are 12 (and not 100) questions and you can get lucky or unlucky. I know people who would ace the job and they just failed.

There are most certainly excellent candidates who will fail these tests for a variety of reasons.

I'm not a fan of them, but they are a necessary evil when you have thousands of candidates going for maybe a hundred jobs. I think it's unfortunate that 2/3 of all the PO jobs have to be filled this way. That should change to 1/3.

I've also heard the anecdotal feedback coming through from the AP and PO competitions where a lot of really raw candidates seem to be coming through, but they also need to be supported to develop.

However, I don't think the minions comment is fair. I think the point is that experienced Civil Servants will probably be at an advantage in that area of the tests - which shouldn't come as a huge surprise to anyone.

How much weighting should be applied to job simulation is another debate, but again I think it would be fair to say that POs spend more time moving stuff along and using their judgement rather than analysing data.

Summer2019 · 25-11-2019 3:20pm

Would any of the candidates in this competition, who also took part in the previous PO competition, know if more batches were called for interview or futher stages, ie. in the AP competition they reached candidates who got order of merit 1700 or more in stage 1.

As this PO competition will be open for two years, there might be another batch called forward to stage 2.

Any views on this?

ShellyMCD · 25-11-2019 3:26pm

It didn’t happen in the last competition. There was only 1 batch called. And only 1 batch called in 2015. The ratio of APs to POS is probably 3:1, so can’t see that there is the same demand.

Principal Officer competition 2019

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