request for assistance in dealing with aggressive teacher

Treppen · 04-05-2021 8:26am

Garibaldi? wrote: »

What matters here is the best outcome for the pupil. You'll find that the teacher is au fait with the theory and the practice of inclusion. To confront the teacher with policies with which he/she is doubtlessly familiar is certainly ones right as a parent. However, in the present uncertain and challenging aftermath of Lockdown it will hardly endear the person to that teacher who is diligently attempting to play catch-up. I think that this parent needs to talk to the teacher, quietly making him/her aware that the pupil was upset at the way he/she was spoken to, and suggesting the exploration of solutions to this problem, given the child's difficulty with organisation. What I most emphatically would not do is mention what the other parents said.In the interests of the entire group this would be best avoided. The priority is to get everyone back on track.

From working with teachers , a lot are not 'au fait' , some often think that a student with an additional need is someone else's problem like the learning support teacher or outside agencies. Also there is often the perception that a learning difficulty = an inability to achieve 100% in a subject... hence why they might be suggesting Ordinary level.

Very very very few know about the 2017 guidelines.

What I would emphatically do is outline what happened. Including being contacted by other separate parents. The truth is the truth.

The OP seems very measured and factual , usually these things rile parents to the point of becoming angry with responses from teachers on here (as has happened in umpteen threads before, sometimes warranted sometimes not). So I would have faith in this parent putting all the cards on the table, and listening to the teacher.

Garibaldi? · 04-05-2021 10:59am

Originally Posted by Garibaldi? View Post
Losing your temper is never acceptable but it does happen and people do get away with it in all walks of life. But that's not really the point here. A number of pupils have told their parents that the teacher lost his/her temper with a pupil and those adults have contacted the pupil's parent. The parent has to decide on the best course of action. The rather unkind and graphic "red face and spit"" detail frankly smacks of pupils who probably don't fancy being required to "knuckle down after lockdown" and have decided to clip teacher's wings a little. Don't rise to the bait. Ask to meet with the teacher and make a reasonable enquiry as to what happened.The teacher is clearly anxious that the child progress. The child was not just left idle. Both parent and child have the same objective.
my original question asks whether its acceptable if the description is accurate. its clear that if the kids are lying that there is no issue but we don't know.
__________________
This too shall pass. If I were that parent I wouldn't spend another nano second of head time on what the other pupils or their parents have said. I would make an appointment with that teacher and let the person know that the pupil himself/herself was upset about what happened in school. If the teacher spoke too robustly it is right to make him/her aware of this. Communication is key. Maybe it's something the teacher needs to reflect upon. I would ask the teacher for his/her professional opinion on how the whole situation might be addressed. Is it possible that the pupil, although working at honours level in other subjects, is punching above his/her weight in this one? Sometimes a lack of organisation concerning class textbooks/materials etc signals the subconscious desire to avoid a particular task. This is not to deny neurodiversity, to suggest that the pupil does not have a genuine difficulty with self-organisation. This pupil may be feeling anxious and overwhelmed and unfortunately the cracks are appearing in this particular subject area.The teacher may reply that the pupil is perfectly capable of sitting honours. If so, the parties involved can work from there.

spurious · 04-05-2021 11:56am

Calling other posters names is not acceptable in this forum.
Some examples and responses have been deleted. Please keep things civil.

04-05-2021 12:11pm

Have you considered working with your child to help them not make such basic errors as 'forgetting' their books? In current circumstances teachers can't even run down to the photocopier and copy it for the child, or ask them to share with someone else. Whatever extra steps the teacher goes to to accommodate your child (which almost always results in neglect of other children) it is all for naught if they do not turn up with the minimum needed to partake in the lesson, i.e. the books. This is the real issue here, not the teachers overreaction (if it is true).

I think it is highly likely that your child said something cheeky when they were given out to for forgetting their book that tipped the teacher over the edge.

teachinggal123 · 04-05-2021 12:15pm

I am genuinely stunned and shocked that people are blaming the child here and saying that it is acceptable for a teacher to lose their temper in this way.

BuzzMcdonnell · 04-05-2021 12:31pm

I think it’s a bit unfair here to presume the child did something else to provoke the teacher other than forget their book. There seems to be a bit of an attitude from some that a teacher can do no wrong and somehow the op’s child and the other children are exaggerating the story.

I completed the leaving certificate in 2018 at 19 years of age. I have seen teachers go red in the face to the point where spit has come out of their mouth for relatively minor issues with students. I have seen teachers react in completely unnecessary ways that would not be accepted in any other line of work. I have no reason to lie about my experience with teachers as a now almost 22 year old entering my final year of university.

I’ve seen students do worse things in university without anything close to such an out of proportion reaction by my lecturers/tutors/professors. Is it possible it is because a minority and I emphasise minority, of teachers think they can treat and speak to children worse than they would if dealing with adults? I don’t know.

Garibaldi? · 04-05-2021 12:47pm

The teacher did not assault the child. Full stop. He/she could probably have been kinder. True. The teacher is probably aware of that himself/herself. But to pursue that issue is to flog a dead horse.These issues are frequently fuelled by onlookers who have nothing to lose by meddling and passing comments. Like people who stop at the scene of an accident although they have nothing to contribute to assisting the injured. The pupil at the centre of this story could find himself/herself embroiled in a time and energy consuming "I said, he/she said" scenario, The sort of self-righteous and non-productive drama which diverts a pupil's attention from the actual purpose of being in school. The spectators will have long forgotten the incident and will be concentrating on passing their exams. The parent needs to carefully consider how he/she will address this situation. I would certainly let the teacher know that my child had been upset. Then I would swiftly move on in search of a solution.

teachinggal123 · 04-05-2021 12:50pm

Garibaldi? wrote: »

The teacher did not assault the child. Full stop. He/she could probably have been kinder. True. The teacher is probably aware of that himself/herself. But to pursue that issue is to flog a dead horse.These issues are frequently fuelled by onlookers who have nothing to lose by meddling and passing comments. Like people who stop at the scene of an accident although they have nothing to contribute to assisting the injured. The pupil at the centre of this story could find himself/herself embroiled in a time and energy consuming "I said, he/she said" scenario, The sort of self-righteous and non-productive drama which diverts a pupil's attention from the actual purpose of being in school. The spectators will have long forgotten the incident and will be concentrating on passing their exams. The parent needs to carefully consider how he/she will address this situation. I would certainly let the teacher know that my child had been upset. Then I would swiftly move on in search of a solution.

Would you have this attitude if your boss did the exact same thing to you? Shouted and screamed in your face until spit can out and you were afraid you’d get assaulted they were so angry. Would this be your attitude?

I agree that it was not “assault”. Would you call it abuse?

Edited to add - if the story is true do you think the teacher should be sanctioned in any way?

jrosen · 04-05-2021 12:50pm

OP I think the best thing you can do is contact the teacher and ask for a meeting and take it from there. You could ask that the year head sit in on this meeting.
I would start by asking them to explain in their own words what happened that day. They may have been having a particularly bad day (no excuse) but could hold their hands up and accept the part they played. Or of course they could have a different version. Its hard to know what to do when you only have one side. While I find teens have a tendency to exaggerate there is often truth to what they have to say. Its also common for people to play down their actions in order to deflect from what they have done.

Home and school have to work together to create a environment where a student can be successful. Perhaps this is an opportunity for you all to try and come up with some strategies that will help your daughter in school.

Garibaldi? · 04-05-2021 2:43pm

jrosen wrote: »

OP I think the best thing you can do is contact the teacher and ask for a meeting and take it from there. You could ask that the year head sit in on this meeting.
I would start by asking them to explain in their own words what happened that day. They may have been having a particularly bad day (no excuse) but could hold their hands up and accept the part they played. Or of course they could have a different version. Its hard to know what to do when you only have one side. While I find teens have a tendency to exaggerate there is often truth to what they have to say. Its also common for people to play down their actions in order to deflect from what they have done.

Home and school have to work together to create a environment where a student can be successful. Perhaps this is an opportunity for you all to try and come up with some strategies that will help your daughter in school.

I think this is great advice.

Treppen · 04-05-2021 3:00pm

Gerardo Faithful Stowaway wrote: »

Have you considered working with your child to help them not make such basic errors as 'forgetting' their books? In current circumstances teachers can't even run down to the photocopier and copy it for the child, or ask them to share with someone else. Whatever extra steps the teacher goes to to accommodate your child (which almost always results in neglect of other children) it is all for naught if they do not turn up with the minimum needed to partake in the lesson, i.e. the books. This is the real issue here, not the teachers overreaction (if it is true).

I think it is highly likely that your child said something cheeky when they were given out to for forgetting their book that tipped the teacher over the edge.

If a child forgetting a book tips a teacher over the edge then the teacher has real serious issues.

I deal with about 150 students a day... do you honestly think not one of them will come in without a book, pencil, homework not done, homework not taken down, forget to get a note signed? I'm in the wrong job if I'm going to be tipped over the edge on a daily basis because of that.

04-05-2021 6:25pm

Treppen wrote: »

If a child forgetting a book tips a teacher over the edge then the teacher has real serious issues.

I deal with about 150 students a day... do you honestly think not one of them will come in without a book, pencil, homework not done, homework not taken down, forget to get a note signed? I'm in the wrong job if I'm going to be tipped over the edge on a daily basis because of that.

Try reading it again.

Random sample · 04-05-2021 6:37pm

Am I the only one wondering how anyone knew how if the teacher had spit coming out of their mouth if they were wearing a mask?

Garibaldi? · 04-05-2021 6:57pm

Random sample wrote: »

Am I the only one wondering how anyone knew how if the teacher had spit coming out of their mouth if they were wearing a mask?

Gosh you're right! And presumably it was just the forehead that turned red!(unless we are to add "anti-masker" to this person's vices;););)

Garibaldi? · 04-05-2021 10:09pm

Random sample wrote: »

Am I the only one wondering how anyone knew how if the teacher had spit coming out of their mouth if they were wearing a mask?

Perhaps this observation calls into question the veracity of the whole incident. Still, even as a hypothetical situation it requires comment.The teacher in question could have chosen to take the line of least resistance here. It would have been much easier. When the pupil appeared without the required resources the teacher could have said"Don't worry about it. Try and follow the lesson as best you can". It's highly debatable whether that would have been in the child's interest. Maybe the child would take it as a licence to arrive unprepared the next time. Perhaps others in the class might also. If the teacher is subjected to the third degree about the incident,will he/she be predisposed to keeping a low profile in the future, to keeping one's head below the parapet when an assertive stand would benefit a pupil in the long-term? How will other teachers view the situation? They may become wary of this pupil and of his/her parents.They will not want to draw trouble down on their own heads. The job can be challenging enough without that. The child is in First Year and has a long way to go in the school.While the parent has the right and the duty to protect the child, the best approach, as a rule, is the non-confrontational, low -profile, conciliatory one.

Jeremy Sproket · 04-05-2021 10:15pm

jrosen wrote: »

They may have been having a particularly bad day

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Occasionally even good, balance teachers will have a bad day. .

Bad day? I have bad days but I've never lashed out at anyone in work because I would be severely sanctioned, brought in front of HR sent home etc, if I did.
Why aren't teachers punished the same? Oh, right, because they're untouchable.

In that case the teacher should apologise to the student, the parent and do it humbly in front of the class.

am_zarathustra wrote: »

Although often there are two sides to a story I will say I've seen a small minority of teachers belittle students due to an inability to contextualize a situation. Occasionally even good, balance teachers will have a bad day. .

If someone in the private sector behaved like that they would (rightfully) be out on their ass. Why is that allowed to happen?

amacca · 05-05-2021 12:16am

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Bad day? I have bad days but I've never lashed out at anyone in work because I would be severely sanctioned, brought in front of HR sent home etc, if I did.
Why aren't teachers punished the same? Oh, right, because they're untouchable.

In that case the teacher should apologise to the student, the parent and do it humbly in front of the class.

If someone in the private sector behaved like that they would (rightfully) be out on their ass. Why is that allowed to happen?

In what job in the private sector are you the boss and expected to achieve outcomes with the people you instruct where a significant cohort of the people you are supposed to instruct do the exact opposite of what you ask them to do (and these are not unreasonable requests - - you know bring materials, carry out simple tasks, don't disrupt others, make a reasonable effort etc) putting the quality of their outcomes in jeopardy and their colleagues and making the working environment an incredibly stressful and tense place on a regular basis for everyone except themselves and the significant number of students that come to school with zero intention of doing anything but disrupt, bully and intimidate.

If you want to compare to the private sector lets not compare apples to oranges .... what job in the private sector where you need minimum degree and postgrad to work there are you expected remain powerless in the face of dip****tery like that on a continuous basis?

Flinty997 · 05-05-2021 12:39am

A teacher pupil relationship is entirely different to work. That's a ridiculous comparison. Children are not adults. That makes its entirely different.

Flinty997 · 05-05-2021 12:47am

I've often found you hear about what happens in school or class from other parents and pupils. It's not that unusual.

You'll often hear consistent stories from pupils and parents about teachers they've had in the past.
So while you can dismiss one or few reports. Many reports over years are very credible. Be that about a good teacher as well everything else.

Flinty997 · 05-05-2021 12:54am

irishgrover wrote: »

....Any feedback would be appriciated

Depends on the school. Usually I've had best outcomes going through the headmaster. Ask them how to deal with it.

It maybe the class and teacher are not a good match with the child. But I'd let the school come up with some suggestions.

Strumms · 05-05-2021 1:18am

Garibaldi? wrote: »

The teacher did not assault the child. Full stop. He/she could probably have been kinder. True. The teacher is probably aware of that himself/herself. But to pursue that issue is to flog a dead horse.These issues are frequently fuelled by onlookers who have nothing to lose by meddling and passing comments. Like people who stop at the scene of an accident although they have nothing to contribute to assisting the injured. The pupil at the centre of this story could find himself/herself embroiled in a time and energy consuming "I said, he/she said" scenario, The sort of self-righteous and non-productive drama which diverts a pupil's attention from the actual purpose of being in school. The spectators will have long forgotten the incident and will be concentrating on passing their exams. The parent needs to carefully consider how he/she will address this situation. I would certainly let the teacher know that my child had been upset. Then I would swiftly move on in search of a solution.

The spectators are probably worried that they could be next... forgetting something is a fûck up... people don’t forget on purpose...

Class mates don’t want to be educated in an atmosphere where if they make a mistake or oversight ie. forgetting a book they are on the end of an adult, an educator, an example setter, loosing their shît.

Bullies in whatever guise need to have their attitudes and behaviors dealt with and adjusted, if their employers are not willing to impose a solution as needed its worthwhile escalating... talking to other parents, writing to the department of education, whatever...

The DayDream · 05-05-2021 1:47am

amacca wrote: »

In what job in the private sector are you the boss and expected to achieve outcomes with the people you instruct where a significant cohort of the people you are supposed to instruct do the exact opposite of what you ask them to do (and these are not unreasonable requests - - you know bring materials, carry out simple tasks, don't disrupt others, make a reasonable effort etc) putting the quality of their outcomes in jeopardy and their colleagues and making the working environment an incredibly stressful and tense place on a regular basis for everyone except themselves and the significant number of students that come to school with zero intention of doing anything but disrupt, bully and intimidate.

If you want to compare to the private sector lets not compare apples to oranges .... what job in the private sector where you need minimum degree and postgrad to work there are you expected remain powerless in the face of dip****tery like that on a continuous basis?

Ah here get a grip of yourself teacher, it's a kid who forgot a book, not an armed terrorist or leader of a jailhouse gang plotting to disrupt, bully, intimidate, stress out, etc. Those are the reactions of the teacher (adult) and not the intentions of the student (child).

There are plenty of private sector jobs where you deal with dip$h!ts on a regular basis. Any job where you deal with the public basically. Every shop you go into the person working there has to deal with it, and guess what a lot of them have degrees, too.

am_zarathustra · 05-05-2021 8:26am

Jeremy Sproket wrote: »

Bad day? I have bad days but I've never lashed out at anyone in work because I would be severely sanctioned, brought in front of HR sent home etc, if I did.
Why aren't teachers punished the same? Oh, right, because they're untouchable.

In that case the teacher should apologise to the student, the parent and do it humbly in front of the class.

If someone in the private sector behaved like that they would (rightfully) be out on their ass. Why is that allowed to happen?

I think people realize how difficult it actually is to get kids to do what you need them to do academically after lockdown. Sometimes the fact you care gets the better of the calm you. As I said above though, you should apologize, even as a lesson to the students on how adults should behave after loosing their temper, if they do. In saying that it's happened to me probably twice a decade and the incidents would have been far more serious than forgetting a book, anyone could do that never mind a child with SEN. I would also have had a reputation for being very even tempered and very positive, that may have helped contextualize the situation. You do have to give our occasionally though, to correct bahviours, to address issues but it should be done in a calm controlled way

It's important to hold students to a high standard to help them achieve their potential but I haven't found shouting to be very motivating. This child is lucky to be coming from a nice stable home, with at least one very engaged parent, if it was a different situation your just another adult shouting and it triggers kids with trauma. Although human, we are still in a position of relative power in the classroom, it's always good to keep that at the forefront of any interactions

Vestiapx · 05-05-2021 8:51am

I think there should be a safety camera for an oversight body to be able to roll back and view incidents like this. Costs would be very low and the advantages obvious as a teacher could simply show it never happened.

05-05-2021 9:04am

Garibaldi? wrote: »

The teacher in question could have chosen to take the line of least resistance here. It would have been much easier. When the pupil appeared without the required resources the teacher could have said"Don't worry about it. Try and follow the lesson as best you can". It's highly debatable whether that would have been in the child's interest.

Well clearly the best thing to do is scream & spit at the child in a rage. That's probably in the child's best interests

Ninthlife · 05-05-2021 9:14am

The amount of apologists for this behaviour is unbelieveable.

We've all gone to school, we all lnow that there are teachers that do this probably on a daily basis yet you have some here trying to blame a kid on why the teacher reacted that way.

One person even said leave it a couple of weeks before contacting the school? Why? So the school can say oh you shouldve contacted us sooner. The teacher to say that was 2 weeks ago I cant remember I teach X amount of classes.

Contact the school, request to speak to the teacher, find out their side and make it very clear in no uncertain circumstances you will not tolerate your child being shouted at and belittled by them or any teacher in the school.

spurious · 05-05-2021 9:57am

Going round in circles here and attracting in the teacher haters.
Thread closed.

Response from OP:

"Hi all, many thanks for your feedback. Obviously there was some diviation on opinions on what to do, accuracy of information from children appropriateness appropriateness of behaviour in schools, in the workspace etc etc.
However it was good to get all the different views.
In addition what was great was that there was widely common consensus that what's important here is the welfare of the child and maximising their learning opertunity.
So thanks again for all the feedback."

request for assistance in dealing with aggressive teacher

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