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Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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    #62
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    Ekerot wrote: »
    The problems started when people began putting their preferred pronouns on their Twitter bios
    I'll never understand how that caught on, very very silly

    it lets you know that they're nuts before you even read their tweets though.


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    #63
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,267 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    The thing is, Chips, anyone who tries to discuss these problems is severely criticised. I’m not sure if we’re allowed to mention her in this thread but look what happened to JK Rowling. She has been vilified. I thought her essay was kind and compassionate. But she is treated as a modern day witch, and not just by a fringe. Many high profile public figures have and continue to heavily criticise her.

    Any attempt at discussion is met with “WHY are you denying my existence?”. It’s so manipulative.

    I'm not familiar with the JK Rowling thing at all, but I do get your point. Personally, I think it's easy enough to distinguish between someone who raises the hard questions for genuine reasons as opposed to vituperative reasons, but there does appear to be people out there who are unwilling or unable to.


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    #64
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    Which is more risky, an inmate with a history of violent crimes or an inmate with no history of violent crimes? If you were going to prison tomorrow, who would you rather have to rub shoulders with, a woman with a history of violence against women, or a woman who is in for forging cheques? What if the former is a cis woman and the latter is a trans woman? Does that change your preference?

    In Ireland, female inmates don’t have a choice. This is not a hypothetical for us to muse over brandy and cigars. This is happening right now in this country. And the male inmates housed in the women’s estate of not of the cheque-forging category, unfortunately. The weaknesses of the self ID system are playing out right now. And people shrug their shoulders.


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    As others have said, I've no problem with a chap pretending/believing/biologically altering himself to resemble a woman, but they're not a woman.

    The humanity in us should generally allow you live your live as you would, "live and let live" etc., and indulge your fantasies- until it encroaches on the rights and safety of others, particularly children or vulnerable members of society.

    And to expect society to accept unquestionably what you claim is true, contrary to biology , is nonsense, as is the cancelling of those refusing to pander to this new orthodoxy.


    .


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    #66
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    I automatically call Caitlyn Jenner “her” for example. Doesn’t bother me in the slightest. But the minute anyone starts coming out with cis-this or privilege-that conversations I check completely out almost naturally and go against them on principle.


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    #67
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    Okay, so let's say we have a cis woman convicted of multiple violent assaults against other woman, and a trans woman with no history of violent crimes, who is convicted of forging cheques.

    Is it an acceptable level of risk to imprison the first woman in a women's prison? If so, why is the second unacceptable?

    Because the second person is male. Do you think prisons should be mixed? And if yes/no, why?

    Also you didn't answer my question posed to you:
    If something is unsafe why make it even more unsafe?


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    #68
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    In Ireland, female inmates don’t have a choice. This is not a hypothetical for us to muse over brandy and cigars. This is happening right now in this country. And the male inmates housed in the women’s estate of not of the cheque-forging category, unfortunately. The weaknesses of the self ID system are playing out right now. And people shrug their shoulders.

    You are avoiding answering a straightforward question. On your own terms, the most important thing is minimizing the risk to inmates in women's prisons. So if we have a trans woman convicted of a non-violent offense, and a cis woman convicted of multiple violent offenses against females (I do not think either of these examples outlandish), which one represents a greater risk to her fellow inmates, the former or the latter?


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    #69
    Gruffalux
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,023 ✭✭✭Gruffalux


    Chips Lovell wrote: »
    I'd be broadly of the "live and let live" school of thought myself. The most simple explanation I've heard was when someone said to me that sex and gender are not the same thing.

    I do find though that it's a topic that tends to make some people I've met almost irrationally angry, even though it often has little or no impact on them personally, so much so that you could argue that it's in inverse proportion They'll frequently use edge cases, such as gender reassignment for children or transgender athletes, as a stick to beat everything else with. Just deal with the edge cases and let everyone else get on with their lives.

    Also, saying "you're free to identify as a woman as long as I'm free to insist, to your face, that you're a man" isn't live and let live. That's just being a dick.

    You may misunderstand the gender theory ideology at the heart of modern trans activism. There are no ''edge'' cases. Any exclusion tumbles the whole deck of cards. If you say let us deal differently with a self ID transwoman re prison or sport you have de facto undermined the existence of that person according to the theory. There can be no exceptions.

    I would never say to a trans person that they are not who they identify as - that does not mean that I must accept they have literally changed sex as that is untrue.

    One of the issues at the heart of all of it is the ideological conflation of gender and sex, really gender expression and biological sex.
    Many of the protections, privacies and encouragements (for want of a better word) that women have received over the past long decades are sex-based rights. That is important. They are rooted in the reality of sex. So private toileting or changing facilities, separate sporting categories, protected refuges and spaces, representation quotas* in politics or public life, and so on are sex based rights hard won.
    Now to look at this more broadly - in the developing world there are huge issues with protection of girls and women in terms (for example) of hygiene facilities, as there is a verifiable and undeniable issue with rape and assault. There are also issues with low representation in school, public life, sport and so on. There are active NGO campaigns to encourage sex based protections and quotas and rights for girls and women. This could be said to be similar to how things once were in the developed world for girls and women.
    And now that we have achieved good practice in the developed world we are turning around and saying to women that a person who was born male, lived male, may most likely present fully as male still (only 5% of Trans people have gender reassignment procedures) can now self ID at will into all those spaces.

    How would you feel if the girls in say Uganda or Nigeria or rural India who are being encouraged out into the world with sex-based facilities being provided were to be told that any male can now self ID into their sports, toilet facilities, school changing rooms, medical examinations, political representation quotas and so on...? How would you respond to that on behalf of THOSE women and girls?

    *note, as an aside, in a largely equal developed society I have difficulties with quotas, but where there is suppression or repression of one sex, I think they can be effective.


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    #70
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Because the second person is male. Do you think prisons should be mixed? And if yes/no, why?

    Also you didn't answer my question posed to you:

    Maybe I think prisons should be abolished. Why is what I think relevant? Another poster brought up prisons and I'm trying to draw out the logic behind focusing on trans inmates.


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    #71
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    I’ve gotten in trouble for saying this before (on a different forum) but what happens if someone “feels” like they’re Asian or Black or White rather than their birth ethnicity. What if they wanted to identify as such. Would that be considered

    a) whacky b) legitimate c) I’m not actually sure

    Why/why not?


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    #72
    CtevenSrowder
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,909 ✭✭✭CtevenSrowder


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    Maybe I think prisons should be abolished. Why is what I think relevant? Another poster brought up prisons and I'm trying to draw out the logic behind focusing on trans inmates.

    Do you want to have a discussion or not? It is silly if we've a case of you firing out questions and refusing to answer any put to you. Maybe answer the questions posed and the logic will all fall into place for you.


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    #73
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    You are avoiding answering a straightforward question. On your own terms, the most important thing is minimizing the risk to inmates in women's prisons. So if we have a trans woman convicted of a non-violent offense, and a cis woman convicted of multiple violent offenses against females (I do not think either of these examples outlandish), which one represents a greater risk to her fellow inmates, the former or the latter?

    The latter is a greater risk, obviously. So, like with violence in male prisons, I’m interested to hear how to tackle that. That is the current situation. We should be looking at how to improve in that. Yup, sometimes there will be violent female inmates. Nowhere near as much as with men, but yeah sometimes. That’s been the case forever.

    That does not take from the current situation in Ireland where ill thought out self ID legislation was brought in, allowing two male inmates not of the cheque-forging variety to be housed in the women’s estate. We’ve allowed the prison system to become less safe than it was five years ago and it already wasn’t fully safe. How is that a good outcome?


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    #74
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    CtevenSrowder wrote: »
    Do you want to have a discussion or not? It is silly if we've a case of you firing out questions and refusing to answer any put to you. Maybe answer the questions posed and the logic will all fall into place for you.

    The proposition is: trans women should not be housed in women's prisons.

    The reason offered is: the mere presence of trans women in a women's prison represents an unacceptable threat to the other women inmates. Prisons are risky but we shouldn't make them more risky.

    Okay, so that seems to me like people who favour prison as a form of punishment are content for prisoners to wear some level of risk from their fellow inmates.

    So I ask: in the case of a violent cis offender and a non-violent trans offender, which one is the greater risk to her fellow inmates?


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    #75
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    The latter is a greater risk, obviously. So, like with violence in male prisons, I’m interested to hear how to tackle that. That is the current situation. We should be looking at how to improve in that. Yup, sometimes there will be violent female inmates. Nowhere near as much as with men, but yeah sometimes. That’s been the case forever.

    That does not take from the current situation in Ireland where ill thought out self ID legislation was brought in, allowing two male inmates not of the cheque-forging variety to be housed in the women’s estate. We’ve allowed the prison system to become less safe than it was five years ago and it already wasn’t full safe. How is that a good outcome?

    OK, so you accept that in some cases the trans inmate may pose less of a risk to her fellow inmates than the cis inmate. That being so, how do you sustain the proposition that the trans women should never be housed in women's prisons? It can't be because of the risk to fellow inmates, because as we established, the risk from a trans inmate is not necessarily greater than from a cis inmate.


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    #76
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    When watching Graham Norton a couple of weeks ago he introduced Sam Smith 'with THEIR new single', yet when he was being interviewed he referred to himself as 'I'. So plural when someone else is talking about you but singular when you're talking about yourself. Fcuk off Sam.


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    #77
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    emeldc wrote: »
    When watching Graham Norton a couple of weeks ago he introduced Sam Smith 'with THEIR new single', yet when he was being interviewed he referred to himself as 'I'. So plural when someone else is talking about you but singular when you're talking about yourself. Fcuk off Sam.

    The singular "they" has been used for centuries.


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    #78
    OMM 0000
    Registered Users Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Baggly wrote: »
    What is your opinion on gender identity?

    I think there are biological men and women, and a very small number of people whose biology is a bit different (e.g. has a penis but very low testosterone and high levels of oestrogen). I think these people probably feel a bit confused and I would have a lot of empathy if they decided to change gender. Perhaps he has a penis, but is very feminine, is attracted to men, can't really relate to typical masculine stuff, so he decides to transition to a woman. As long as he really understands what he's doing, and he's not just a confused gay who needs therapy, then I say go for it and I hope it works out.

    I think many of the "trans" people nowadays are just attention seekers or confused gays who need therapy. Regardless, I think people should be allowed live their lives however they want. But the problem comes in when these people start trying to police language and culture, and want to force me to pretend that a person with a penis and balls is a biological female. That is madness.

    There's also the problem of "fluidity". That's the realm of attention seekers and should be ignored.

    And then there's the problem of attention seekers making up genders. Again, these people should be ignored.

    So you have a real issue (people who don't neatly fit into our male/female categories) which is being destroyed by attention seekers and the mentally ill.


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    #79
    kildare lad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,010 ✭✭✭kildare lad


    I've no problem if adults wants to get a sex change . But I do have a problem with the growing trend of woke parents influencing their kids to be gender neutral . Im bringing up my child to choose his own gender rubbish . It must really mess up a kids mind when they're at school and playing with normal boys and girls whose parents aren't woke idiots . I feel the parents are putting their kids on the road to being bullied and have mental issues in the future. Being a child is hard enough growing up withour the extra baggage of your parents trying to mess your head up to be woke


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    #80
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    OK, so you accept that in some cases the trans inmate may pose less of a risk to her fellow inmates than the cis inmate. That being so, how do you sustain the proposition that the trans women should never be housed in women's prisons? It can't be because of the risk to fellow inmates, because as we established, the risk from a trans inmate is not necessarily greater than from a cis inmate.

    We’ve established nothing of the sort. A woman can be violent. A biological male - no matter how they identity - is far more likely to be violent. In the general population and even more so in the prison population. AND a violent male inmate almost always has a strength advantage.

    This is usually the part where somebody thinks I’m saying all men are violent. I am not saying that and I would hope that is obvious.


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    #81
    WhenPigsCry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭WhenPigsCry


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    We’ve established nothing of the sort. A woman can be violent. A biological male - no matter how they identity - is far more likely to be violent. In the general population and even more so in the prison population.

    This is usually the part where somebody thinks I’m saying all men are violent. I am not saying that and I would hope that is obvious.

    Someone with a history of violence poses a far greater risk of violent behaviour than someone with no history of violence, regardless of gender.


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    #82
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,262 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    kildare lad wrote: »
    I've no problem if adults wants to get a sex change . But I do have a problem with the growing trend of woke parents influencing their kids to be gender neutral . Im bringing up my child to choose his own gender rubbish . It must really mess up a kids mind when they're at school and playing with normal boys and girls whose parents aren't woke idiots . I feel the parents are putting their kids on the road to being bullied and have mental issues in the future. Being a child is hard enough growing up withour the extra baggage of your parents trying to mess your head up to be woke

    Where are these people? Growing trend on Twitter maybe, but in real life in this country it doesn't/rarely exists. If it does, I've never heard of it mentioned in a single conversation with anyone.


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    #83
    emeldc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭emeldc


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    The singular "they" has been used for centuries.

    Better give me an example in the context of my post and i'll admit defeat.


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    #84
    suicide_circus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,802 ✭✭✭✭suicide_circus


    Are prisons sex segregated or gender segregated?


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    #85
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    Someone with a history of violence poses a far greater risk of violent behaviour than someone with no history of violence, regardless of gender.

    correct. But violent or not. A transwoman in a prison with biological women poses a bigger risk of sexual assault or violence than most other biological women.


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    #86
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I used to be on the liberal "shure what harm is it, the poor craturs" fence on this, the last three years have changed that. Men/Women, He/Her, pronoun nonsense can F**k/Off.


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    #87
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    Maybe I think prisons should be abolished. Why is what I think relevant? Another poster brought up prisons and I'm trying to draw out the logic behind focusing on trans inmates.

    Okay here it is:

    Women are women and belong in prison (and other spaces where they may be vulnerable) with other women.

    Similarly men belong with men.

    Post op transsexuals should be in the prison of their genitalia.

    Non-op transwomen are men; non-op transmen are women. Both should be in the prison of their birth sex - but if for safety reasons they feel unsafe, in solitary.


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    #88
    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    WhenPigsCry wrote: »
    Someone with a history of violence poses a far greater risk of violent behaviour than someone with no history of violence, regardless of gender.

    And male inmates are far more likely to have that history of violence than female inmates. Transitioning to identifying as a woman doesn’t magically let one identify out of being male.
    Gervais08 wrote: »
    Okay here it is:

    Women are women and belong in prison (and other spaces where they may be vulnerable) with other women.

    Similarly men belong with men.

    Post op transsexuals should be in the prison of their genitalia.

    Non-op transwomen are men; non-op transmen are women. Both should be in the prison of their birth sex - but if for safety reasons they feel unsafe, in solitary.

    The physical advantage is still there though, for the most part.


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    #89
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,835 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    6 wrote: »
    Where are these people? Growing trend on Twitter maybe, but in real life in this country it doesn't/rarely exists. If it does, I've never heard of it mentioned in a single conversation with anyone.

    This whole "things on the internet are contained to the internet" narrative has been well and truly exposed as being nonsense time and time again. Shockingly, people who use the internet also use the real world, and affect it greatly.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #90
    Gervais08
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,612 ✭✭✭Gervais08


    Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »
    And male inmates are far more likely to have that history of violence than female inmates. Transitioning to identifying as a woman doesn’t magically let one identify out of being male.



    The physical advantage is still there though, for the most part.

    Never thought of that - was thinking of a fully functioning female body in a make prison - not good.


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    #91
    km991148
    Registered Users Posts: 4,275 ✭✭✭km991148


    Bambi wrote: »
    I used to be on the liberal "shure what harm is it, the poor craturs" fence on this, the last three years have changed that. Men/Women, He/Her, pronoun nonsense can F**k/Off.

    what happened in the last 3 years exactly (other than outrage culture)?


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