Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

Gervais08

Gruffalux wrote: »

There are plenty of transgendered people who give their opinion on this matter. You can follow them and listen to what they have to say. I have for years.

Examples
https://twitter.com/DebbieHayton
https://twitter.com/ScottNewgent
https://twitter.com/FionneOrlander
https://twitter.com/BuckAngel
https://twitter.com/Rose_Of_Dawn

You can read about the experiences of people who have experienced transition and then detransitioned here - https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

Debbie Hayton is an amazing person to listen to, very interesting; funny; dry - could not recommend her too highly.

IAMAMORON

Hunky Monster wrote: »

There are two genders.

Man.
Woman.

And there are some people with a mental disorder who believe otherwise.

It is not that simple Hunky Monster. Believe.

I mean if life were that simple the discussion would not even be at hand?

Transsexuals do not have mental disorders, some do , but being a transsexual does not mean you are suffering from a mental problem or disorder. It is not that simple

Gervais08

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It is not that simple Hunky Monster. Believe.

I mean if life were that simple the discussion would not even be at hand?

Transsexuals do not have mental disorders, some do , but being a transsexual does not mean you are suffering from a mental problem or disorder. It is not that simple

How many other genders do you - incorrectly - posit that there are ?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It is not that simple Hunky Monster. Believe.

I mean if life were that simple the discussion would not even be at hand?

Transsexuals do not have mental disorders, some do , but being a transsexual does not mean you are suffering from a mental problem or disorder. It is not that simple

Then why do so many of them kill themselves after they transition.

Gruffalux

Gervais08 wrote: »

Debbie Hayton is an amazing person to listen to, very interesting; funny; dry - could not recommend her too highly.

A nice person. Debbie's wife's experience is very poignant too. She went through a bereavement essentially. And it is good that Debbie acknowledges that. Debbie also acknowledges the reality of biological sex.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

km991148 wrote: »

I am way more snarkily now :pac:
meh indeed..

I came in snarky - got hit with more (probably deserved) snark and somewhere in the middle tried to genuinely understand what people are saying.

Can we actually discuss the thread topic now? Or do you want another round or two of this?

I am discussing it. You said nothing about my point about self ID in the last post. So maybe respond to that?

Chips Lovell

Gruffalux wrote: »

You may misunderstand the gender theory ideology at the heart of modern trans activism. There are no ''edge'' cases. Any exclusion tumbles the whole deck of cards. If you say let us deal differently with a self ID transwoman re prison or sport you have de facto undermined the existence of that person according to the theory. There can be no exceptions.

I was going to reply to your first paragraph to say that any reasonable person can see that edge cases don't undermine or indeed affect the vast majority of transgender people but then I noticed that you'd done that thing I'd highlighted which was to use this to pivot into scaremongering about bathrooms and what not.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

IAMAMORON wrote: »

It never ceases to amaze me how it is persons who are not transgendered that seem to have the most objection to it?

If you don't have the mental tenacity, or capacity, to comprehend what transsexuals are going through, I fail to see why you are entitled to an opinion on the matter?

By criticizing their existence and demanding that they adhere to their birth identity, or thus facilitate other biological boundaries, you are not fully understanding how a transsexual feels. In brief you couldn't unless you are a transsexual?

I don't understand people who feel it is their right to impose their will or attitude on anyone else's? If you do not understand someone else, you certainly have no right to pass comment on their existence? This world is to be shared, the last time I looked around for a common consensus anyways.

I think people should try to be more kind to others, rather than judging them and trying to itemize them. People deserve more respect, that includes transgenders.

It is indeed shared. Rights come with responsibilities. Some rights that transgender people are asking for conflict with the rights of others. This is where it becomes the business of others. A vague “Awww, be kind” sentiment solves nothing.

LLMMLL

km991148 wrote: »

A tragic case, no doubt.

.

Sure it's unfortunate but I really question what the poster was trying to convey by posting it.

So they know or know of a transwoman who has left her wife and child. You'd think leaving your wife and child was an exclusively trans thing.

The vast vast majority of people who have left their families are not trans.

Knowing a trans person who has left their family most certainly does not mean they have been affected by trans issues.

The sneery painting of the trans woman as abandoning her family to "go on a journey" shows the that posters true attitudes to trans issues.

Gruffalux

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I was going to reply to your first paragraph to say that any reasonable person can see that edge cases don't undermine or indeed affect the vast majority of transgender people but then I noticed that you'd done that thing I'd highlighted which was to use this to pivot into scaremongering about bathrooms and what not.

And your response to the girls in the developing world re Self ID?

For these women, the risk of sexual assault is 40% higher than for women with access to sanitation facilities, according to a 2018 study conducted in the shanty towns of Kenya’s Mathare Valley. In India, this risk is as high as 50%.

https://ideas4development.org/en/unexpected-link-access-toilets-womens-rights/

LLMMLL

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

As mentioned upthread, currently there are two male prisoners in possession of GRCs being housed in Limerick’s women prison. One is a sex offender, the other has a history of violence towards women. To you, maybe that’s nothing. To me, it’s egregious. Are we waiting for something bad to happen? And self ID has allowed this situation.

But who cares, right? It doesn’t affect me personally so why should I care. Right?

You know nothing bad is going to happen. They have zero contact with the other inmates.

Sardonicat

LLMMLL wrote: »

You know nothing bad is going to happen. They have zero contact with the other inmates.

Why is that?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Chips Lovell wrote: »

I was going to reply to your first paragraph to say that any reasonable person can see that edge cases don't undermine or indeed affect the vast majority of transgender people but then I noticed that you'd done that thing I'd highlighted which was to use this to pivot into scaremongering about bathrooms and what not.

Scaremongering? It’s not just bathrooms. It’s prisons, it’s hospital wards, it’s shelters, it’s communal spaces, it’s sports. Things that women had to fight for and that exist for a reason.

And often, it’s men who shrug their shoulders and suggest that women just “be kind”. They have absolutely nothing to lose and social kudos to gain. Must be nice.

Gervais08

Gruffalux wrote: »

A nice person. Debbie's wife's experience is very poignant too. She went through a bereavement essentially. And it is good that Debbie acknowledges that. Debbie also acknowledges the reality of biological sex.

She was horrifically abused on Twitter for calling herself a dad. She fathered children before her transition - of course she is a dad! And by all accounts an excellent one too!

IAMAMORON

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

It is indeed shared. Rights come with responsibilities. Some rights that transgender people are asking for conflict with the rights of others. This is where it becomes the business of others.

Your tone seems to assume that non-transsexuals have more rights than transsexuals, am I misunderstanding this ?

Are you saying that they are not entitled to have their owns rights?

Straight question by the way. What gives non-transgenders the right to assume the rights of transgenders? That is almost exclusivist, whether it is deliberate or not? What gives non transgendered persons the right to influence the future of a transgendered person? As I said, it is a very straight question?

LLMMLL

Sardonicat wrote: »

Why is that?

Because they are extremely violent towards women.

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because they are extremely violent towards women.

So men who are violent towards women housed in a women's prison just because they self identify as women.

Dangerous violent men housed with vulnerable women.

I'd call it crazy but it would be misconstrued as something else.

Actually let's call it what it is "Sick"

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Your tone seems to assume that non-transsexuals have more rights than transsexuals, am I misunderstanding this ?

Are you saying that they are not entitled to have their owns rights?

Straight question by the way. What gives non-transgenders the right to assume the rights of transgenders? That is almost exclusivist, whether it is deliberate or not? What gives non transgendered persons the right to influence the future of a transgendered person? As I said, it is a very straight question?

Give me an example. What rights do you think transgender people need to gain that don’t exist? The right to safe spaces? I think they should have that right too. However, that shouldn’t come at the expense of female only and male only spaces. And I wonder about the motivation of anyone who would object to the third space idea. Is it about safety or validation?

I don’t know what you mean by “assume the rights of transgenders”. What do you mean by that?

Gervais08

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Your tone seems to assume that non-transsexuals have more rights than transsexuals, am I misunderstanding this ?

Are you saying that they are not entitled to have their owns rights?

Straight question by the way. What gives non-transgenders the right to assume the rights of transgenders? That is almost exclusivist, whether it is deliberate or not? What gives non transgendered persons the right to influence the future of a transgendered person? As I said, it is a very straight question?

You are misrepresenting that post. Whether willfully or not I do not know.

But here’s a take - a man declared himself a transgender woman and claims “the right” to be treated as a woman.

However, a rape victim has the right to be seen only by a woman doctor, to be given her rape kit by a woman nurse etc.

The rights of the former (the man) trump the rights of the latter (the woman) as she can can’t say “I want to be treated by another woman” - a rape crisis centre or hospital would be afraid of lawsuits or, God forbid, a Twitter campaign.

LLMMLL

I have to say it's nice to see the support for trans people on this new thread. I know they'll all eventually be chased away like in the old thread but for now it's quite lovely.

Gatling

Gervais08 wrote: »

You are misrepresenting that post. Whether willfully or not I do not know.

But here’s a take - a man declared himself a transgender woman and claims “the right” to be treated as a woman.

However, a rape victim has the right to be seen only by a woman doctor, to be given her rape kit by a woman nurse etc.

The rights of the former (the man) trump the rights of the latter (the woman) as she can can’t say “I want to be treated by another woman” - a rape crisis centre or hospital would be afraid of lawsuits or, God forbid, a Twitter campaign.

Or a man rocking up to the coombe or Hollis st hospitals and demand a gynaecological exam of his penis

Gatling

LLMMLL wrote: »

I have to say it's nice to see the support for trans people on this new thread. I know they'll all eventually be chased away like in the old thread but for now it's quite lovely.

Another wind up

Gervais08

Gatling wrote: »

Or a man rocking up to the coombe or Hollis st hospitals and demand a gynaecological exam of his penis

Lady penis I think you’ll find ...!!

jam_mac_jam

IAMAMORON wrote: »

Your tone seems to assume that non-transsexuals have more rights than transsexuals, am I misunderstanding this ?

Are you saying that they are not entitled to have their owns rights?

Straight question by the way. What gives non-transgenders the right to assume the rights of transgenders? That is almost exclusivist, whether it is deliberate or not? What gives non transgendered persons the right to influence the future of a transgendered person? As I said, it is a very straight question?

The conflict exists because of a difference in perception between gender based rights and sex based rights.

According to gender theory if you identify as a man or woman than you are one. So if you are entitled to all the rights of that gender. You are entitled to participate in the sport of your gender for example.

According to the sex based rights idea you are entitled to rights based on the sex you are rather than your gender. So if you are a natal man you shouldn't be entitled to participate in the sport of the gender you are but rather the sex you are. Regardless of where on gender.

So it's not seeing somebody's rights as less then you, you are seeing it infringing on your sex based rights.

If you see it based on gender then this doesn't make sense because your sex is less important than your gender. And you are discriminating against that person.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

Gervais08 wrote: »

You are misrepresenting that post. Whether willfully or not I do not know.

But here’s a take - a man declared himself a transgender woman and claims “the right” to be treated as a woman.

However, a rape victim has the right to be seen only by a woman doctor, to be given her rape kit by a woman nurse etc.

The rights of the former (the man) trump the rights of the latter (the woman) as she can can’t say “I want to be treated by another woman” - a rape crisis centre or hospital would be afraid of lawsuits or, God forbid, a Twitter campaign.

Yeah, I’ve said before in another thread that I am okay with being examined by either male or female doctors. That is mostly true but then I recalled that there was one time I did ask to be examined by a woman. What if that woman was male? A hospital patient is in a vulnerable position and should not be made to feel more uncomfortable than they already do. Would a person be made to feel guilty for not validating the identity of the doctor, even subtly?

Gervais08

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

The conflict exists because of a difference in perception between gender based rights and sex based rights.

According to gender theory if you identify as a man or woman than you are one. So if you are entitled to all the rights of that gender. You are entitled to participate in the sport of your gender for example.

According to the sex based rights idea you are entitled to rights based on the sex you are rather than your gender. So if you are a natal man you shouldn't be entitled to participate in the sport of the gender you are but rather the sex you are. Regardless of where on gender.

So it's not seeing somebody's rights as less then you, you are seeing it infringing on your sex based rights.

If you see it based on gender then this doesn't make sense because your sex is less important than your gender. And you are discriminating against that person.

Put it better than I - thank you!

Rodin

I never use the word 'gender' now.
I use the word 'sex'.

Can't be contested

IAMAMORON

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

I don’t know what you mean by “assume the rights of transgenders”. What do you mean by that?

What I meant is that your general tone is insinuating that non transgenders are somewhat different to transgenders and that coincidentally they have a universal right to decide on their future? I am not just talking about toilet facilities here either by the way, I think there are bigger issues at hand, particularly where it comes to gender identification and a humans' rights.

Am I misinterpreting your tone in this instance? Please advise.

Gervais08

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Yeah, I’ve said before in another thread that I am okay with being examined by either male or female doctors. That is mostly true but then I recalled that there was one time I did ask to be examined by a woman. What if that woman was male? A hospital patient is in a vulnerable position and should not be made to feel more uncomfortable than they already do. Would a person be made to feel guilty for not validating the identity of the doctor, even subtly?

I imagine so. I’ve heard some horrific tales from women saying the cross examination in court by a male QC felt like being violated again.

I can’t imagine how traumatic having your rape kit done by a large male bodied person who “identified as female” would be.

IAMAMORON

Gervais08 wrote: »

But here’s a take - a man declared himself a transgender woman and claims “the right” to be treated as a woman.

However, a rape victim has the right to be seen only by a woman doctor, to be given her rape kit by a woman nurse etc.

The rights of the former (the man) trump the rights of the latter (the woman) as she can can’t say “I want to be treated by another woman” - a rape crisis centre or hospital would be afraid of lawsuits or, God forbid, a Twitter campaign.

Men and transgendered persons can also be the victim of rape.

Are you honestly saying that only female doctors can treat rape victims?