Enterprise: What idiots were running the show?

Banana Republic 1 · 04-01-2021 12:14am

pixelburp wrote: »

Naw, didn't watch it myself with modern sensibilities engaged, so think that's glib to say modern audiences can't deal with it; Enterprise was simply a muck show helmed by a producer long past a sell by date. Not without reason its strongest season came when a new producer took over but Season 1 in particular was bloody awful. Bad stories with threadbare characters, the stall set out terribly by that "decontamination scene" in the pilot and the obvious wankbait casting.

Threadbare characters, bad stories, 25 gormless producers, that’s discovery.

De Bhál · 04-01-2021 1:08am

pixelburp wrote: »

Naw, didn't watch it myself with modern sensibilities engaged, so think that's glib to say modern audiences can't deal with it; Enterprise was simply a muck show helmed by a producer long past a sell by date. Not without reason its strongest season came when a new producer took over but Season 1 in particular was bloody awful. Bad stories with threadbare characters, the stall set out terribly by that "decontamination scene" in the pilot and the obvious wankbait casting.

And the theme song, don't forget that travesty. Straight from the get go I was worried.

It was a better better show than Discovery though, imo. I would give Enterprise a rewatch, Discovery...never.

Stark · 04-01-2021 10:56am

I've grown to somewhat like the theme song (at least the pre-jazzy version from the first two seasons). Especially the visuals with all the precursor ships leading up to the NX-01.

I think what annoyed me about it the first time round was it was a part of the whole "trying to be Star Trek for people who don't like Star Trek" thing they were going for at the time. They even dropped "Star Trek" from the name when it first aired, just going with "Enterprise".

Inviere · 04-01-2021 11:02am

Stark wrote: »

I've grown to somewhat like the theme song (at least the pre-jazzy version from the first two seasons). Especially the visuals with all the precursor ships leading up to the NX-01.

I think what annoyed me about it the first time round was it was a part of the whole "trying to be Star Trek for people who don't like Star Trek" thing they were going for at the time. They even dropped "Star Trek" from the name when it first aired, just going with "Enterprise".

Largely agreed. The song isn't to everyone's liking, but I'm quite fond of the raspy vocals in it (was written by or for Rod Stewart iirc? The master of rasp!). The 'remix' version of it was a huge step back, but hey, it's a few seconds of music before the show starts....

AutoTuning · 04-01-2021 11:16am

Singing theme tune... on Star Trek ... I think that sums it up.

It’s like Dawson’s Creek did Trek production.

Who thought that was a good idea? Did they have the producers of Home & Away as consultants?!

Discovery, for all its flaws, at least looks & sounds like sci-fi.

Inviere · 04-01-2021 11:58am

AutoTuning wrote: »

Discovery, for all its flaws, at least looks & sounds like sci-fi.

Yeah the piercing lens flares, rooms so dark you can't see whats in them, toy ray gun laser sounds....all the hall marks of a modern great.

pixelburp · 04-01-2021 12:31pm

beauf wrote: »

In fairness there's been a string of eye candy in all Star Trek's, movies and TV series. Least in Discovery despite their use of leather etc. Remember 7 of 9 etc. There was hardly a great depth to the many of the characters in Star Trek. They pretty much all have one super power. Some moral, ethical or cultural dilemma solved by enlightened thinking. Or just whatever mood Janeway is in.

Curious what eye candy was in the Trek movies, unless you're talking about Khan / Ricardo Montalbán's glorious chest

Only thing I can think of is a brief moment in Into Darkness when Carol Marcus strips to her undies. Beyond that I can't say the OG movies ever strayed into obvious pandering to the sexually repressed

I don't agree on the characters reduction though: Trek's best shows had a cast of characters you could at least describe a sketch of their persona; I'm on record as being very down on TNG's secondary cast but I could still tell you who LeForge or Crusher was and their generally aspects. Enterprise's cast barely had enough characterisation to go around. Ensign Mayweather possibly being the most egregious - even Harry Kim got more to work with than the latterday crewmember.

beauf · 04-01-2021 1:09pm

I'm not sure why you want to compare the movies with one series. But across the franchise it has always had eye caddy, 7 of 9 outfits for one. Carol Marcus is another jarring moment.

I'm sure if you google it you will find a galleries of babes across the decades.

pixelburp · 04-01-2021 1:56pm

beauf wrote: »

I'm not sure why you want to compare the movies with one series. But across the franchise it has always had eye caddy, 7 of 9 outfits for one. Carol Marcus is another jarring moment.

I'm sure if you google it you will find a galleries of babes across the decades.

You mentioned the movies, I was just wondering why you brought them up as I'd have said they generally shied away from pandering. I'm not pretending there has never been eye-candy - 7of9 is clearly there as a prototype to Enterprise - there's just a big creative difference between a generic romantic interest for the sake of an episode's plot, and a deliberate, quite cynical "please **** now" character like Enterprise's T'Pol; a decision made very obvious by that decontamination scene (to be fair, this room played a part throughout a bunch of episodes but it was borderline softcore beyond anything else Trek tended towards). Plenty of eye candy for sure, but as a for instance, it was rare TNG was overtly sexual either. Even the (in)famous Risa often came off curiously inert.

Banana Republic 1 · 04-01-2021 2:07pm

pixelburp wrote: »

You mentioned the movies, I was just wondering why you brought them up as I'd have said they generally shied away from pandering. I'm not pretending there has never been eye-candy - 7of9 is clearly there as a prototype to Enterprise - there's just a big creative difference between a generic romantic interest for the sake of an episode's plot, and a deliberate, quite cynical "please **** now" character like Enterprise's T'Pol; a decision made very obvious by that decontamination scene (to be fair, this room played a part throughout a bunch of episodes but it was borderline softcore beyond anything else Trek tended towards). Plenty of eye candy for sure, but as a for instance, it was rare TNG was overtly sexual either. Even the (in)famous Risa often came off curiously inert.

To me risa always seemed like whore island.T pol to me seemed to have and eating disorder. The where into nipples on enterprise. Didn’t Data have a donkey dick or at least that was what was established after the Tasha yar incident

beauf · 04-01-2021 3:26pm

pixelburp wrote: »

You mentioned the movies, I was just wondering why you brought them up as I'd have said they generally shied away from pandering. I'm not pretending there has never been eye-candy - 7of9 is clearly there as a prototype to Enterprise - there's just a big creative difference between a generic romantic interest for the sake of an episode's plot, and a deliberate, quite cynical "please **** now" character like Enterprise's T'Pol; a decision made very obvious by that decontamination scene (to be fair, this room played a part throughout a bunch of episodes but it was borderline softcore beyond anything else Trek tended towards). Plenty of eye candy for sure, but as a for instance, it was rare TNG was overtly sexual either. Even the (in)famous Risa often came off curiously inert.

I would say T'Pol character is extremely similar to 7 of 9.

AutoTuning · 04-01-2021 3:32pm

Every Star Trek series has an emotionally stunted character, except Discovery where even the computers have a good cry and speak in whispery tones every so often.

beauf · 04-01-2021 3:34pm

AutoTuning wrote: »

Every Star Trek series has an emotionally stunted character, except Discovery where even the computers have a good cry and speak in whispery tones every so often.

Seemed apt.

https://imgur.com/gallery/HVZnkX0

Sleepy · 04-01-2021 3:54pm

Theme tune aside, I have to say, I liked Enterprise when I finally got around to watching it a couple of years back. The intro visuals were actually really good imo, just mute the caterwalling redneck theme and give the show the time it needs to grow. By the third season, when it starts to make proper use of arc story-telling rather than the earlier "adventure of the week" format, it really gets good imo.

AutoTuning · 04-01-2021 4:12pm

Just dub the theme tune over with this. I find it really adds to it and is almost less jarring.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD22a4APsCg

_Kaiser_ · 05-01-2021 2:52pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Fair be warned AllForIt, seasons 1 and 2 of Enterprise are just bad, no caveats. Sci-fi often starts rough yes, but usually you'll see kernels of ideas or plots taking shape (eh Babylon 5), so even by that metric Enterprise flopped its first attempts. Season 1 was god-awful flailing about. Season 3 was much better, while Season 4 being the strongest - it was also the most fan service filled, being both a good and bad thing in the end.

Ah I dunno. I would have agreed with your assessment on S1 & S2 originally but having rewatched it in recent weeks here there's some decent episodes in there too. Yes, there's a lot of duds but I skipped less than I watched.

S3 (as I said above) has a few poor/filler ones early on, but builds solidly from about halfway through till the end.

S4 is a step up. I didn't actually mind the Space Nazis as it wrapped up the TCW in a way that was obviously meant to remove that shackle from the show but still in a way that made sense. They did the same with the Vulcan animosity theme later on in the season, and I've just watched the first of the Terra Prime 2-parter and am finding that I really wish the show and it's ongoing threads had been allowed to go on.

I'll skip the god-awful finalé though. THat was an insult to the show, actors and fans all-round.

_Kaiser_ · 05-01-2021 3:06pm

beauf wrote: »

Enterprise is a simpler show. Simplier stories more similar to the TOS or TNG. I think I watched it about a year or so after it came out, which is a long time ago. I like it then. People like more convoluted storylines these days so maybe it won't appeal to modern audience the same way.

That said I slogged my way through discovery and finally had enough and quit watching it.

Spot on.. and I likewise stopped watching Discovery after S2 but from what I've read I haven't missed anything! Picard I stuck with for the season but I likewise won't be going back.

Enterprise - even as the weakest of the "original" shows - is still better than either of those newer efforts.

Lower Decks however, was a great surprise after a ropey start. That one I am actually looking forward to!

AutoTuning · 05-01-2021 4:13pm

Honestly thought Picard was a very weak show. I like Picard the character from TNG and Patrick Stewart but it’s just not a great show. It has a very Disney vibe to it.

It risks actually damaging the legacy of the character.

Evade · 05-01-2021 4:14pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Curious what eye candy was in the Trek movies

Kim Cattrall exists. Had Leonard Nimoy not been such a stickler we would have seen some NSFW pictures set on the bridge of the Enterprise.

Banana Republic 1 · 05-01-2021 4:43pm

pixelburp wrote: »

Curious what eye candy was in the Trek movies, unless you're talking about Khan / Ricardo Montalbán's glorious chest

There was a rumour that Kurtzmann wants to cast Dev Pattel as Khan

_Kaiser_ · 05-01-2021 8:29pm

Watched part 2 of Terra Prime there. As someone else said it actually works well as a season/series finale in itself.

Still though, that last scene

I never thought I'd actually miss this series.

AllForIt · 05-01-2021 11:51pm

Stark wrote: »

I've grown to somewhat like the theme song (at least the pre-jazzy version from the first two seasons). Especially the visuals with all the precursor ships leading up to the NX-01.

I think you'd have to like that kind of music in the first place. Not for me. It's what you'd image some red neck trucker would listen to in the deep south on the long road, but that's me just being a bit*h.

It's very hard to do sci-fi scores without being either electronic, orchestral or a combo, because it's so what we're used to. When it gets region specific, I think that's a mistake. I mean could you imagine if The Chieftains were commissioned to do the opening score? Wouldn't work.

edit: I just had a look at it on YT. It's not bad as that style goes, but I just don't think it's suitable for the sci-fi genre. I like the disco theme, not particularly the graphics that go with it.

Stark · 09-01-2021 5:02pm

Skipped over "Bound" on my rewatch. I remember it being pure muck the first time round. The Klingon cranial ridge episodes were better than I remembered. The fan service concept was a bit naff but the execution was quite good. The characters in the show have matured to the point where they're compelling to watch in spite of dodgy plot. Which is a sharp contrast to early Enterprise where the characters were the show's weakest aspect. "Demons"/"Terra Prime" also excellent stuff. "These are the Voyages": huge let down. What made the finale worse for me is when you take out the Riker/Troi scenes and Commander Tucker's piss poor send off, the 20 mins or so you're left with leaves you with a painful tease of how far the show and characters have come in the 4 seasons. The final scene with the 3 Enterprises (Archer's, Kirk's and Picard's) was a genuinely nice touch, would have been happy if they had left it as that as the tie-in to 23rd/24th century Trek.

pixelburp · 09-01-2021 8:00pm

The stupidest part of the whole finale plot was having killed Tucker off so that Archer could make this big historic speech, the script then cut away just as the captain started the speech. A total cock-tease so that the episode could be a TNG crossover nobody wanted. Maybe they did shoot the speech but Bakula made a hash of it, but I doubt it...

Stark · 09-01-2021 8:47pm

Yes that was seriously frustrating.

Riker and Troi: "It's okay, we've already seen this bit, we don't need to see it again".

Arghhhh.

The whole episode was a bit disjointed that way. "Computer, skip past the good parts".

CramCycle · 10-01-2021 10:59pm

Started a re watch before Christmas and realised I obviously bailed on most episodes.
Positives so far (just reached the end of season 3). They have some solid Sci Fi episodes. They have some solid space opera episodes, I particularly like the mature way it is written* in that they don't get T'Pol having stupid TVitus and can only ever have loved one person. The time travelling arcs appear to be unrelated which is genius. You think that the Xindi and the Suliban must be related but through season 3, it turns out that its a mere coincidence, nothing more. Highly unlikely but I like that they haven't tried to tie them together. So many episodes where they simply shrug their shoulders and say, f*ck me, hadn't a notion what to do about that, lets just move on. Its not a plot point, or a plot device that will return, it was just interesting. The fact that they were constantly the weaker side, which made sense, was great. The number of planets they left in their wake that truly thought they were coming back when they weren't (I may be proved wrong, 2 seasons left), is inspired writing.
Negatives. Well f*ck me, there are a lot. The teenage boy writing about 40% of the script, was this not less than 20 years ago. Why does T'Pol not have the same dresswear as every other Vulcan. Who in gods name would let that loose canon Archer (and they addressed this in an episode in their defence) be a Captain, how they survived is a miracle. The music, somehow, managed to get worse at one point.

I know people compared it to previous Trek but they actually tried to copy TOS, and failed, making TOS look infinitely less sexist, despite being over 30 years earlier. Christ, I took the soft light as a homage to the original until they kept it up in non related episodes.

*mature in some episode, I presume there were huge differences in writing and directing teams, as some are so well done and others are the fluff dreams of a 13yo.

Stark · 10-01-2021 11:17pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Why does T'Pol not have the same dresswear as every other Vulcan.

That's especially glaring in Season 4 when (minor spoiler)

She switches allegiances and receives a Starfleet commission and instead of giving her a uniform, they simply stick rank pips on the catsuit

Banana Republic 1 · 10-01-2021 11:21pm

Stark wrote: »

That's especially glaring in Season 4 when (minor spoiler)
She switches allegiances and receives a Starfleet commission and instead of giving her a uniform, they simply stick rank pips on the catsuit

By the end of series one she has resigned from the Vulcan high command.

17-01-2021 11:13am

I’ve been watching series 2 of Enterprise back during the week (it’s really not as bad as people say) but is that a talaxian in Rura Penthe in the episode where Archer is sentenced to there?

Banana Republic 1 · 17-01-2021 12:03pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I’ve been watching series 2 of Enterprise back during the week (it’s really not as bad as people say) but is that a talaxian in Rura Penthe in the episode where Archer is sentenced to there?

Picard shot Tuvok with a crossbow.

17-01-2021 12:42pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

Picard shot Tuvok with a crossbow.

I’m sure that’s an in-joke that I have probably missed somewhere along the way here. Has someone already mentioned the talaxian in the thread?

Banana Republic 1 · 17-01-2021 12:58pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I’m sure that’s an in-joke that I have probably missed somewhere along the way here. Has someone already mentioned the talaxian in the thread?

That’s the first I’ve seen it. Lots of those kind of incidents happened in trek episodes could be that they just have a pool of costumes like the actors.

17-01-2021 1:00pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

That’s the first I’ve seen it. Lots of those kind of incidents happened in trek episodes could be that they just have a pool of costumes like the actors.

It’s at 36:10 in S2 episode 19.

Banana Republic 1 · 17-01-2021 1:02pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

It’s at 36:10 in S2 episode 19.

I meant it’s the first I’ve seen it appear on this thread.

Evade · 20-01-2021 7:33pm

Banana Republic 1 wrote: »

I meant it’s the first I’ve seen it appear on this thread.

I think he's just a generic scruffy alien with a thinning mow hawk.

odyssey06 · 20-01-2021 7:43pm

Evade wrote: »

I think he's just a generic scruffy alien with a thinning mow hawk.

Don't take any chances. Shoot first and autopsy later.

Evade · 20-01-2021 10:45pm

odyssey06 wrote: »

Don't take any chances. Shoot first and autopsy later.

Jetrel did nothing wrong.

CramCycle · 23-01-2021 9:55pm

Season 1 Discovery spoiler, also season 4 mid way on Enterprise:

That stupid thing I seen Michael and her Dad doing, communicating across light years telepathically. So apparently that was a thing already in an Enterprise episode, accidentally I might add, between a Human and a Vulcan.

CramCycle · 29-01-2021 4:14pm

Finished it last night, far better than I remember, better than Discovery as despite its flaws at least it for the most part has an internal logic. The mirror episodes were great in that they apparently threw together a better opening credits sequence for two episodes then they managed for all 4 years combined. Also the part in the mirror episode where Archer talks to himself, I wonder was this a piss take that would delve into further if it went on as he was possibly the most inconsistent character in it. The childish sexism stuff was a tough watch, with only Trip growing out of it in the last season.

I also laughed heartily at the other Chief Engineer in the last season who simply became a whipping boy for people to beat up.

So yeah, despite all its flaws, it was way better than Discovery. I don't buy the "of its time" crap for the eye candy stuff, doesn't cut it. Either make it an adult show or don't, don't flick between soft core shots for no reason to being perfectly PC the next week, the lack of consistency there was irritating, in the end T'Pol, Trip and Phlox were the best acted, scripted and developed characters.

They did have some very good guest cast members as well.

Inviere · 29-01-2021 4:25pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Either make it an adult show or don't, don't flick between soft core shots for no reason to being perfectly PC the next week, the lack of consistency there was irritating

Stinks of Berman really, especially if what's said about him is true (see Terry Farrell's story). But yeah, largely agree, for all the whinging about it, it's nowhere near as bad as is made out, & could have continued to grow and develop for another two or three seasons if left to do so.

29-01-2021 4:32pm

I always thought Archer was a strong character and Bakula did a good job with it. Especially after the naive wide eyed hope is sucked from him after the Florida attack.

AMKC · 31-01-2021 12:51pm

So anyone any idea who the alien ship in "Silent Enemy" was? Its green so I am thinking some rogue Romulan faction or maybe Breen or some other different alien altogether. Actually they were more than likely Breen or some other race. Maybe that's why the Breen hide in suits later on lol. I did love there weapon do as it was so different from anything else and could inflict a lot of damage just as it did on poor Enterprise.

CramCycle · 31-01-2021 1:06pm

ReginaldSmythV wrote: »

I always thought Archer was a strong character and Bakula did a good job with it. Especially after the naive wide eyed hope is sucked from him after the Florida attack.

Yes and no. Baluka done well but he was a hot head in one scene, a rule lawyer in the next and then a typical trek captain in the next. I mean those conversations with the Vulcans in the first few episodes, who would let that hot head in charge of a ship. Other times he was a brilliant captain with restraint as needed. I know it was different writers and he done what he could but the writing consistency, of his character more than any other, was annoying.

AMKC · 10-02-2021 12:06pm

Do you know what really bugged me about Enterprise when they were fighting the Xindi. The fact Enterprise could have and should have had shields by then. Malcolm was getting small shield grids to work in season 1 episode 22 so when Enterprise has her refit to go find the Xindi they really should have fit shields too even if it was controlled wirelessly. Sure they could have a story or two where they might not work like in the Xindi goo. I forgot what it was called now and maybe they have to find a new frequency for them to work. The might not have been as strong as shields powered straight from the warp core but at least it would have gave them a bit more war protection.

Stark · 10-02-2021 12:11pm

CramCycle wrote: »

Yes and no. Baluka done well but he was a hot head in one scene, a rule lawyer in the next and then a typical trek captain in the next. I mean those conversations with the Vulcans in the first few episodes, who would let that hot head in charge of a ship. Other times he was a brilliant captain with restraint as needed. I know it was different writers and he done what he could but the writing consistency, of his character more than any other, was annoying.

Reminds me a bit of the writing for Captain Janeway in that respect. In one episode, she'd be a strong protective mother figure, the next one a cool headed methodological ex-science officer type and in the next episode she'd be a petty tyrant. (I still loved Mulgrew's performance in the role for the most part).

10-02-2021 3:24pm

Mulgrew was great, let's be honest. She did exactly what they script called for, from her,and was not her fault that the writers room had her character all over the shop

flazio · 06-07-2021 7:06pm

In my run through of the entire Star Trek saga in airing order I'm up to Season 1 of Enterprise.
If some film maker ever need someone to play a young George W Bush, they need look no further than Connor Trinner.

nyarlothothep · 16-07-2021 11:12pm

With Enterprise I find it follows a pattern of Lore saying "this is idiotic!" to wow, this is good. For example the episode with the cowboys and aliens was ridiculous and annoying for me, a disruption to the whole edginess of the expanse. But it was followed by Trip gets a clone, a good episode which explores similar issues to the Tuvix episode. I don't quite remember Tuvix since it was so long ago, but I thought ENT did a better job at probing the moral problems with ending a sentient life that didn't have the same status as the rest of the crew. Then this was followed by another 2-3 excellent episodes, the ep with the Andorian dude , the one where they travel back to 2004 and Strategem, more of this please. Regeneration also did an excellent job of making the Borg a threat again. Voyager had done so much damage to the Borg that it was great to see them as an imposing and terrifying force in ENT. The crew were completely up against the unknown, a force vastly superior and alien from their point of view and that's what reintroduced the tension, which was last seen in TNG. However, there are also episodes which are just wtf, why and what's the point of this?!

For some reason I feel sympathetic for the crew of ENT which is weird, but because they're kind of incompetent and out of their depth, they're more relatable? I dunno but I just like characters such as Hoshi, Malcolm, Trip, T'Pol and Archer. Although it could be argued Bakula was miscast, I actually quite like his blundering, wide eyed portrayal, I root for him because of this. They're certainly different from the "perfect" crews of TNG and VOY or even DS9 whose characters were generally very competent and military badasses. It's a shame that it only ran for 4 seasons because it's a solid show and it was at least trying to take Trek in new, worthwhile directions. It was also more Trek than STD or anything post Abrams so it's valuable in that respect.

nyarlothothep · 17-07-2021 11:16pm

Actually I think Malcolm is my favourite character. He's Rimmer-like. In adhering so strictly to strict protocol, he's almost compensating for something, like a lack of ability. Of course since this is Star Trek, he's actually very capable, but it's redolent of Rimmsy. Then there was the fight between him and the marine dude. Although Malcolm was petty in his insecurity about losing his position as security chief to him, I was still rooting for him to win the fight because the American dude was bit insufferable in his smarmy, patronising confidence. Also I thought Malcolm was kind of on point after Mayweather getting his ass kicked. For a training session like that, if the purpose was to hammer home the ruthlessness of combat, there should have been an agreement or precedent in place that it would get that brutal, participants fair warned.

AMKC · 06-08-2021 12:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117622377#Comment_117622377

With Enterprise I find it follows a pattern of Lore saying "this is idiotic!" to wow, this is good. For example the episode with the cowboys and aliens was ridiculous and annoying for me, a disruption to the whole edginess of the expanse.

I remember the first time I seen that episode and not liking it either but it has grown on me and I find it quiet a fun episode now.

But it was followed by Trip gets a clone, a good episode which explores similar issues to the Tuvix episode.

I thought and still do think that was an excellent episode and think it would have made a great two parter as it did seem a bit rushed.

I don't quite remember Tuvix since it was so long ago, but I thought ENT did a better job at probing the moral problems with ending a sentient life that didn't have the same status as the rest of the crew.

I thought they both done good jobs of that but the Enterprise episode is certainly more hard hitting as you begin to care for Trips clone and him wanting to live.

Enterprise: What idiots were running the show?

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