Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-01-2021 2:22pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

A handful have come forward. Says who? Show me the evidence?

Investigation of what breaking what law?

Calm yourself.

Approx 500 gave testimony to the commission. 56,000 mothers and 57,000 children went through the mother and baby homes. Many survivors did not give testimony.

You'd have to ask the TDs but I believe they wanted criminal investigations around the 9000 missing dead babies for a start. I guess lethal neglect, illegal adoptions and vaccine trials could also be investigated.

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-01-2021 2:32pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/mother-and-baby-homes-burials-5305049-Jan2021/

The report noted that the congregation “provided the Commission with an affidavit about burials generally and specifically about the Castlepollard and Sean Ross child burials but very little evidence was provided to support the statements in it”.

“The affidavit was, in many respects, speculative, inaccurate and misleading,” the report added.

It also noted that a small burial ground in the grounds of Bessborough was opened in 1956 for members of the congregation.

“It seems to have been assumed by former residents and advocacy groups that this is also where the children who died in Bessborough are buried as there are occasional meetings and commemoration ceremonies held there.”

However, the report stated that the “vast majority of children who died in Bessborough are not buried there; it seems that only one child is buried there”.

In the report, the commission said it finds it difficult to understand how or why certain records do not appear to exist.

“The Congregation of the Sacred Hearts of Jesus and Mary do not know where the children who died in Bessborough are buried. The Commission finds this very difficult to comprehend as Bessborough was a mother and baby home for the duration of the period covered by the Commission (1922 – 1998) and the congregation was involved with it for all of this time.

“The Commission finds it very difficult to understand that no member of the congregation was able to say where the children who died in Bessborough are buried.”

Maybe they would be more forthcoming on the witness stand.

John Hutton · 22-01-2021 3:44pm

Just a point on the 9000 figure. This is a total figure, not the amount "above" the normal mortality rate. If people are going to be suggesting criminal procedures they need to be coherent, accurate and precise, which means they will need to do the sums on those figures if they are to be taken seriously and not have any campaign for prosecution immediately collapse.

Regarding survivor testimony, we have seen in the past how this can be inaccurate. For example, in a previous inquiry a very significant amount of women (a third of those who testified) stated that they underwent symphysiotomy when this was not the case. I do not think that people deliberately lie in situations but the memory is a funny thing, especially when it is about something that occurred decades ago. This example underlines how survivor testimony is not proof, that other evidence is needed which is the entire point of commissions of investigation. I make this point again in the context of people talking about criminal prosecutions where testimony and evidence has to stand up to scrutiny. It is also important to remind people that the testimony was mixed, not everyone said there was abuse.

Personally, I think there is zero chance of criminal prosecutions (I note that this appears solely directed towards religious, letting the state, fathers etc. off the hook again). Partially because of what I mention above, but also because the worst of this occurred over 50 years ago. This is unfortunate as there is individual responsibility at play here, and not just corporate.

The news cycle has moved on this week, and overall I don't think this has changed much, people already knew that these places could be terrible and women were treated badly. I think people are pretty numbed to it, there was nothing in this report that was a surprise, except for when it pointed out that evidence, in a small number of areas, did not support the common narrative in that some things either did not happen, or were not as bad/widespread as people thought. This thread is reflective of that, where only a handful of posters are continuing to comment and breaches of forum rules are unnoticed (the copy pasting of news articles in their entirety, some from behind paywalls) There will be some sort of redress scheme, which the religious orders will voluntarily support. I think the nature of the scheme will depend on whether the mid 1970s cut off applies, because the homes that existed until the 1990s, and the handful of charitable bodies that remain (such as the one run by the Legion of Mary) are altogether different than those that existed in the 1940s, both in terms of how they are ran, but more importantly, their role with and supervision by the state.

As for the future, obviously records need to be made available, baptism, birth certs etc. (important to note that it is the government who are holding this up) and the location of burials will need to be established and, where appropriate (obviously if people are appropriately buried they should not be disturbed) excavated. It will be interesting to see what the reaction is when the myth about 800 babies being buried in a septic tank is revealed as that. This will lead to further questions about where the bodies are, and again give rise to speculation that there are no graves because the death certs were faked, with the babies instead being adopted/sold and calls for a further inquiry with regard to adoptions.

I think there will be little appetite for further inquiries, either among the general public and certainly "official Ireland", personally. It will be up to those who spent time in these institutions, good or bad, to document their experiences. Future historians can sift through it, and future generations will have the final say.

The whole thing is just sad, I say none of the above with any 'satisfaction'. Hopefully people in 70 years won't be wondering how we, in 2021, let other horrible things happen in our society and they are having commissions about that.

Yellow_Fern · 22-01-2021 3:47pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Well let's start..

Criminal neglect
child traffic
sexual abuse

Falsification of official documentation
illegal detention of a person against their will
possible murder...

Child neglect happens all the time. How many times does it end up in the courts? Normally in extreme cases a child is taken into care. When it goes to the courts it tends to involve severe beatings of small childern. Can you name a single court case of where it was done years later? How the hell can you prove beyond doubt that such a beating occured when the event was 70 years ago? Was it even a crime back then?
There is no evidence of illegal detention. There is no evidence that the sisters sexuaally abused or allowed it to occur. There is no evidence of child trafficing. The idea that there was widesread fallsification of documents referred to what is known as the 2012 HSE memo. It allegd this happened at Bessborough but the report found its based on a misintepreation.

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Calm yourself.

Approx 500 gave testimony to the commission. 56,000 mothers and 57,000 children went through the mother and baby homes. Many survivors did not give testimony.

You'd have to ask the TDs but I believe they wanted criminal investigations around the 9000 missing dead babies for a start. I guess lethal neglect, illegal adoptions and vaccine trials could also be investigated.

I am sure there are many testimonies that we havent heard. But there is no evidence of widespread anger at the findings. Just a few loud lobby groups.

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-01-2021 3:51pm

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I am sure there are many testimonies that we havent heard. But there is no evidence of widespread anger at the findings. Just a few loud lobby groups.

Ah stop. You must have had your head in the sand since the report was published.

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-01-2021 3:56pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/state-abandoned-in-1947-proposed-investigation-into-almost-700-bessborough-deaths-1.4463373

State abandoned in 1947 proposed investigation into almost 700 Bessborough deaths
Decision came after the Co Cork mother and baby home was temporarily closed.

The State in 1947 abandoned a threatened special investigation into the deaths of nearly 700 children at the Bessborough mother and baby home, but warned that it could resume if the institution’s infant-mortality rate did not fall.

The decision to halt the investigation came after the State’s chief medical adviser, Dr James Deeny, had temporarily closed the Cork home and sacked the Sacred Heart nun then in charge.

Between 1922 and its temporary closure in December 1946, 674 children died there, including 102 between April 1943 and March 1944 – where it then had an 82 per cent infant-mortality rate. Ireland’s national infant-mortality rate was about 7 per cent for the same period.

I hadn't heard that before. I think more information will start to come out now.

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-01-2021 3:58pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-mcquaid-s-shadow-hangs-over-mother-and-baby-homes-1.4464400

McQuaid’s shadow hangs over mother and baby homes.

His defiant assertions about Irish Catholicism stand as monuments to a damaging delusion.

McQuaid passionately believed the Catholic Church was “the one true church” and that belief dictated so many of his words and actions. Given the range of his interventions and his ability to generate obedience from so many, including politicians, as revealed in the mother and baby home report in relation to adoption legislation, it is hardly surprising that the phrase “McQuaid’s Ireland” achieved much currency in the attempt to summarise his domination.

John Hutton · 22-01-2021 4:00pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/diarmaid-ferriter-mcquaid-s-shadow-hangs-over-mother-and-baby-homes-1.4464400

McQuaid’s shadow hangs over mother and baby homes.

His defiant assertions about Irish Catholicism stand as monuments to a damaging delusion.

Interesting article.

Unfashionable as it is to point out now, McQuaid was not devoid of charity; indeed, he dispensed a lot of it. Historian Deirdre McMahon has warned of the inadequacy of “crude caricatures of hidebound Catholic reaction with which McQuaid has become identified since his death in 1973”.
He was a significant and often enlightened educationalist in the 1930s and as archbishop co-ordinated many welfare activities in his diocese in relation to clothing, fuel and housing. One of the reasons Éamon de Valera lobbied for his appointment was because he was impressed with McQuaid’s social concerns.

McQuaid devoted much time to services for those with alcoholism, mental and physical disabilities and the building of hospitals. The problem, however, as with the wider church in Ireland, was that McQuaid wanted all on his terms and had too much power which was abused, meaning “McQuaid’s Ireland” long outlived the man himself, who died in 1973.

Cluedo Monopoly · 22-01-2021 4:18pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ronan-mullen-calls-for-national-voluntary-collection-for-mother-and-baby-home-survivors-1.4465131

Independent Senator Ronan Mullen has called for a national voluntary collection to allow individuals and families contribute to a redress package for survivors of mother and baby homes because there was a community element to the issue.

Such a considerate man.

I wonder has he ever thought to ask the religious orders where all the missing babies are buried.

saabsaab · 22-01-2021 5:08pm

Church bodies will not give any information as to where the bodies of the over 900 children that died at Bessborough might be found. It can find no evidence that there were significant sums of money involved in sending babies to the US to be adopted, but then, it is the opinion of the commission that access to the administrative records of the congregations that arranged such adoptions be governed by the religious themselves.

Beyond belief. This is now not 50 years ago!

gmisk · 22-01-2021 5:32pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ronan-mullen-calls-for-national-voluntary-collection-for-mother-and-baby-home-survivors-1.4465131

Such a considerate man.

I wonder has he every thought to ask the religious orders where all the missing babies are buried.

I knew it would be him before reading the story tbh zzz.
He just happens to serve on the board of one of the Daughters of Charity’s corporate charities....

up for anything · 22-01-2021 5:44pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ronan-mullen-calls-for-national-voluntary-collection-for-mother-and-baby-home-survivors-1.4465131

Such a considerate man.

I wonder has he every thought to ask the religious orders where all the missing babies are buried.

He only worries about the unborn...once they're dead or born then he doesn't give a toss. Abhorrent little person that he is.

whisky_galore · 22-01-2021 10:03pm

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ronan-mullen-calls-for-national-voluntary-collection-for-mother-and-baby-home-survivors-1.4465131

Such a considerate man.

I wonder has he ever thought to ask the religious orders where all the missing babies are buried.

How would that work?
Would anyone who was not of age before the last laundry closed be exempt?

stockshares · 23-01-2021 1:24pm

Micheal Martin was on Brendan O Connor this morning.

Didn't catch it all, from what I did he mostly spoke about the Schools and Covid but did speake on the M+B homes for the last few mins.

Brendan mentioned that people were insulted by not getting a copy of the report before the Webinar.

He didn't take any responsibility for it.

I'll post the clip later.

saabsaab · 23-01-2021 2:27pm

To be fair the responsibility would rest with the Minister.

Cluedo Monopoly · 23-01-2021 2:29pm

saabsaab wrote: »

To be fair the responsibility would rest with the Minister.

Yes but they were both on the webinar and they both spoke at length. O'Gorman is a puppet for FFG in this instance. They knew the spin they wanted but it utterly failed and in many ways got more attention for the survivors and the injustices/wrongdoings/evil/atrocities.

stockshares · 23-01-2021 3:17pm

stockshares wrote: »

Micheal Martin was on Brendan O Connor this morning.

Didn't catch it all, from what I did he mostly spoke about the Schools and Covid but did speake on the M+B homes for the last few mins.

Brendan mentioned that people were insulted by not getting a copy of the report before the Webinar.

He didn't take any responsibility for it.

I'll post the clip later.

Interview starts at the beginning of the show.
M+B home segment starts at 44m:22s.
https://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/html5/#/radio1/11274045

Cluedo Monopoly · 23-01-2021 3:43pm

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40212506.html

A former resident of a Cork mother and baby home has initiated a High Court damages action against the State, the HSE and the order of Catholic nuns who ran that facility.

The action has been brought by Caroline Donovan who was a resident of Bessborough House in Cork on two occasions, once in the mid 1980s and also for a period during the early 1990s.

She says that while a resident of Bessborough, which was located in Blackrock, Cork, she was subjected to physical and emotional abuse which, it is claimed, amounted to a breach of her constitutional rights.

The action is understood to be one of the first brought following the publication earlier this month of the final report by the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes.

Interesting development. One to watch.

Cluedo Monopoly · 23-01-2021 3:46pm

https://www.independent.ie/regionals/sligochampion/news/the-voiceless-abuse-of-women-and-their-children-laid-bare-in-commission-report-on-irelands-mother-and-baby-homes-39982289.html

Many pregnant women fled to Britain, to protect this secrecy, only to face the prospect of being returned to Ireland against their wishes.

British Catholic charities put considerable pressure on the Irish Hierarchy and on the government to repatriate the women.

Some of the treatment meted out to these women, who were commonly described as PFIs, (pregnant from Ireland) was inhumane and occasionally it placed them at medical risk.

British authorities also returned children born there to Irish women, sometimes approaching the woman's family who might be unaware of the child's existence, asking them to take the child. The Department of Health and local authorities appear to have co-operated with these practices.

The main motivation behind the British and Irish Catholic charities who were involved in repatriating Irish women from Britain, either pregnant or with their new-born infant, was to prevent these children being 'lost' to Catholicism through adoption into Protestant families.

The report states that several women were repatriated at a very late stage in pregnancy and in circumstances that presented a serious risk to health.

Yellow_Fern · 23-01-2021 11:58pm

saabsaab wrote: »

Church bodies will not give any information as to where the bodies of the over 900 children that died at Bessborough might be found. It can find no evidence that there were significant sums of money involved in sending babies to the US to be adopted, but then, it is the opinion of the commission that access to the administrative records of the congregations that arranged such adoptions be governed by the religious themselves.

Beyond belief. This is now not 50 years ago!

As someone who dug up human remains and have been involved with medical record storage it is very plausible that it is forgotten.They probably have an idea where they are but are not sure. The bones of 900 infants is far smaller than you might imagine. also they dont always last long before dissappearing in acid brown earth soils that occur around in Cork. Not sure if the soil at the site acid brown earth but it might be.

James Brown · 24-01-2021 12:15am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/courtandcrime/arid-40212506.html

Interesting development. One to watch.

Only way these people might get justice. So long as its not some crony appointed judge...

An outside investigation is needed.

saabsaab · 24-01-2021 12:21am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

As someone who dug up human remains and have been involved with medical record storage it is very plausible that it is forgotten.They probably have an idea where they are but are not sure. The bones of 900 infants is far smaller than you might imagine. also they dont always last long before dissappearing in acid brown earth soils that occur around in Cork. Not sure if the soil at the site acid brown earth but it might be.

Look at the wording! That doesn't stack up.

'will not give any information as to where the bodies of the over 900 children that died at Bessborough might be found. It can find no evidence that there were significant sums of money involved in sending babies to the US to be adopted, but then, it is the opinion of the commission that access to the administrative records of the congregations that arranged such adoptions be governed by the religious themselves.

Cluedo Monopoly · 24-01-2021 12:22am

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

As someone who dug up human remains and have been involved with medical record storage it is very plausible that it is forgotten.They probably have an idea where they are but are not sure. The bones of 900 infants is far smaller than you might imagine. also they dont always last long before dissappearing in acid brown earth soils that occur around in Cork. Not sure if the soil at the site acid brown earth but it might be.

Hmmmm. Your posts drip with empathy.

The missing 900 children at Bessborough were not all infants. I believe the oldest recorded death was 3 years old.

You might think it's plausible that the nuns don't know where these dead children ended up. Most don't think it's plausible. The commission did not think so.

Do you think they deserve to be buried with dignity? Or would you prefer they stayed disappeared?

Cluedo Monopoly · 24-01-2021 12:26am

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/commission-questions-view-that-no-one-knows-where-infants-are-buried-in-home-1.4456672

The Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes expressed doubt that a religious order had no knowledge where the majority of some 900 babies who died at its institution were buried.

In 1934 the home had the highest recorded infant mortality rate of any in the State. The situation continued to deteriorate in the 1940s and peaked in 1943, when 75 per cent of children born there died before turning one.

The commission finds it very hard to believe that there is no one in that congregation who does not have some knowledge of the burial places of the children,” the report states, adding that it was “perplexed and concerned” at the congregation’s response on the matter.

John Hutton · 24-01-2021 12:35am

I thought the commission and its methodology was all nonsense and should be binned?

Cluedo Monopoly · 24-01-2021 12:35am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

Hmmmm. Your posts drip with empathy.

The missing 900 children at Bessborough were not all infants. I believe the oldest recorded death was 3 years old.

You might think it's plausible that the nuns don't know where these dead children ended up. Most don't it's plausible. The commission did not think so.

Do you think they deserve to be buried with dignity?

Apologies, the oldest missing child at Bessborough was 5 years old.

Over 96% died in infancy as follows: 13.68% died in the perinatal period (0-7 days); 8.79% died in the neonatal period (8-28 days) and 73.86% died aged 29-365 days. The remaining 3.67% died in childhood aged between 366 days and five years.

Cluedo Monopoly · 24-01-2021 12:48am

https://www.rte.ie/news/mother-and-baby-homes/2021/0117/1190299-ann-ogorman-mother-baby-homes/

Ann believes that what she saw that day was her baby daughter been taken for burial.

"There was no one else’s baby who died at that time," she said.

In 1975, Ann gave birth again in Bessborough, but she said that there was no file on her baby girl.

"They had no file on my daughter, but they had a file on me being there before. As the years went on it was like a secret. No one knew about it."

A couple of years ago, Ann managed to get a birth and death certificate for the daughter she called Evelyn.

She said one certificate says that Evelyn died due to prematurity, while the other says she was full-term baby.

"I have both birth and death certificates now. I know it was her that was in that box."

Ann said the final resting place of all the babies should be identified and marked with a fitting memorial.

"To be marked, protected and to be blessed. And a seat and wildflowers, and a plaque with all their names," she said.

Last Wednesday, Ann was delighted to see the name Evelyn O’Gorman listed on the front page of The Examiner as part of its coverage of the commission's report.

I scanned it down and I saw Evelyn’s name and I was so delighted," she said.

"It put my mind a little bit at ease. Their names are recognised now. Their names are out. I have children and grandchildren now and it’s good for them to know about their aunt."

Is it too much to ask?

Bannasidhe · 24-01-2021 10:59am

John Hutton wrote: »

I thought the commission and its methodology was all nonsense and should be binned?

The terms of reference were far too narrow.
The investigation too limited.
The lack of independent review prior to publication troublesome.
Many (many) of the conclusions drawn are not supported even by the relatively small amount of evidence provided = more worrying is the reverse is also the case, conclusions dismissed are supported by the small amount of evidence provided.
It's methodology was not suited to a fact finding investigation but was more akin to an examination of whether there exists a legal case for redress.

None of this means there is not useful information to be gleaned from the report - not just from what it contains but from what it omits.
The report itself has now become a primary source (while also being a flawed) secondary source as have the Ryan and McAleese Reports.

I have not heard any calls for it to be binned (i.e. destroyed).

Cluedo Monopoly · 24-01-2021 11:04am

Mother and Baby home report being covered by Miriam on Radio 1 now.

Bannasidhe · 24-01-2021 11:12am

Cluedo Monopoly wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/news/mother-and-baby-homes/2021/0117/1190299-ann-ogorman-mother-baby-homes/

Is it too much to ask?

Yes, because the official mindset is "they will be looking for compensation" and at times the State , which can be so flaithulach with our money when it suits, is also notably miserly when it comes to private citizens seeking redress. For example how the HSE fights malpractice cases tooth and nail all the way through the courts (gathering legal expenses at it goes) and ends up issuing a "profound apology" after a multi-million euro award has been made against them.
Ironically, it is often only by taking a court case that the plaintiffs manage to establish the medical malfeasance occurred.

What we do not tend to do here is 'simple' fact finding. Investigations whose sole purpose is to uncover as much of the evidence as possible and come to findings based completely on the available evidence. That is open about that evidence (personal identifying details can be easily redacted), open about it's purpose, and open to interrogation before any final conclusions are reached.

Edit to add: That State acts on the assumption the victims are looking for money, and so seeks to play down (or deny) a) how much abuse occurred, and b)the State's involvement. This tells us a lot about the official mindset.
What is not considered is that the victims want answers most of all - answers as to the fate of their children, answers as to their identity. Most are not in it for the money. They are in it for the truth.
Until the State recognises this basic fact the rollercoaster of Commission after Commission after Commission will continue. Give the foot dragging over adoptees birth certs I see no evidence that the State has learned anything.

Mother and babies homes information sealed for 30 years

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